1. Rory

    Rory Senior Member

    You mean for making a screenshot? I usually put it on full screen, start it playing seven or eight seconds before the shot I want, and by the time it gets there the title has disappeared and I can screenshot it while it's in motion.
     
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  2. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Metabunk 2019-02-10 08-23-27.
    Some perspective here, as they might actually use these numbers for something. Those power ratings are vastly inflated. I have the same laser that they say is 10,000mW. It's a generic Chinese 303 laser.
    Metabunk 2019-02-10 11-27-43.

    It's marked on the laser itself as <1000mW
    Metabunk 2019-02-10 08-32-29.
    And even that is a great exaggeration, it's probably under 200mW. By comparison, a presentation laser pointer (like the one I use in some demonstrations) is <5mW.
    It's also generally sold for $10 to $20, so they are getting ripped off paying £60. Similarly with the other laser and the torch/flashlight

    That said, it's quite adequate for the task of being visible over ten miles. I bring it up in part because making claims about the power, professional nature, and even the cost of equipment is sometimes used to give an air of authority to the proceedings.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
  3. Z.W. Wolf

    Z.W. Wolf Senior Member

    He is apologizing for not livestreaming the event; even though refraction made the experiment as planned impossible. They moved up the beach just to see what they could learn. As soon as the camera moved above the refraction zone, the laser appeared as expected. I don't know if he considers this a small victory, or just an "of course" sort of thing. That this is in line with what would be expected on a SE is not mentioned.

    RE: The Refraction Zone.
    It is a well established bit of FE lore that there is a zone in between the upright and inverted image in an inferior mirage in which things are hidden which would normally be visible (on the Flat Earth). Globe Heads have mistaken this for obscuration due to a curve.

    This goes back to at least Sept. of 2016. Some folks here might remember Sandor Szekely and the Lake Balaton Laser Experiment. The concept of the NUDTZ - the Non-Uniform Density Transition Zone - was invented at that time.

    https://www.metabunk.org/posts/190123/
    A wikipedia page was created to establish a (self) reference for this new concept. The page was deleted.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=delete&user=&page=N.U.D.T.Z.&year=&month=-1&tagfilter=&subtype=

    From the deletion log:
    Dr. John D. is presenting the refraction zone effect as established scientific fact.

    Here he is explaining that the laser is in that zone of invisibility - between the upright and inverted images.
    [​IMG]


    Here he is chiding people, specifically MW, for ignoring the established effects of the Refraction Zone.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    "The elevation of the refraction zone was decreasing" as the night went on and the laser would have become visible to a camera 1 meter above the water surface eventually, but everyone had to go home.

    He concludes:
    [​IMG]

    If by some fluke the laser is visible at that time it will be absolute proof of FE. It could not be explained by looming or ducting, because light does not bend downwards in the atmosphere. A scientific fact established by Dr. John D.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
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  4. Z.W. Wolf

    Z.W. Wolf Senior Member

    This May 2018 YT video refers to the Non-Uniform Density Transition Zone by name - although "zone" has become "line."

     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
  5. Mendel

    Mendel Member

    The next attempt is in two weeks, Friday 22nd and Saturday 23rd.

    Source: https://youtu.be/LE871w_rx40


    Low tides at Newhaven are at 19:32 (Fri), 7:52 and 20:15 (Sat) (NTSLF prediction).
    I would assume a two-hour interval around those times would be good for low tide observations.
    https://tides4fishing.com/uk/england/brighton also has short-term weather and water temperature predictions.
    Sunset is at 17:30, sunrise is at 7:00.
    Therefore, the Saturday morning observation should be at daylight.

    @Z.W. Wolf The inferior mirage itself hides things, why would they need to invent another refraction zone?
     
  6. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    I think it's partly because of they understand refraction only in terms of Snell's law, which is the change in angle of a beam as it goes from one medium to another, like:
    [​IMG]

    Hence they feel like there needs to be some kind of boundary between regions. They don't get the concept of a gradient index. Which is partly why I was spurred to do the simulator and fishtank demonstrations.
     
  7. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    don't laugh.. what about something like a tequila sunrise. can you layer a tall glass with liquids of different densities that would demonstrate what is meant by a gradient? obviously in that example the gradient could only go from lighter to denser because a liquid filled glass isnt the atmosphere...

    (if this idea will confuse them more, then you can delete this comment :) )
     
  8. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    That's actually the standard way of demonstrating it.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=sugar+water+density+gradient&num=50&source=lnms&tbm=isch
    Metabunk 2019-02-11 07-01-02.
     
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  9. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    If I refill the tank, I might try using a slightly yellow solution on the bottom. The way to do it is to pre-mix the sugar as a simple syrup, color it, partly fill the tank with pure water, and then add the syrup to the bottom using a funnel.
     
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  10. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    but the atmosphere probably is more like
    upload_2019-2-11_10-16-3.
     
  11. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    More like if you were to take one of those colored layered jars of sugar water, float some ice on the top, and heat the bottom.
     
  12. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    to how my brain pictures things, that still implies that there are precise layers/zones. my sandart beaker is 10 miles wide. (not that there is a huge refraction difference if the water over the middle of the sea is colder..as far as Dr. J's last experiment.. but i'm just trying to help others visualize.)
     
  13. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    There's no hard lines between the layers though:
    Metabunk 2019-02-11 07-45-12.
     
  14. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    yea but if i'm in Brighton i am looking through the same color density. (again, Dr. J has bigger issues than this concept)
    eek.JPG
     
  15. Mendel

    Mendel Member

    I just did a google search for thermal gliding , and found pictures like these:
    image. image. image.
    and when I use wind thermal coastal seaward, I find
    image. image.
    Note that the sea breeze is landward during the day, at least in summer. The diagonals in the bottom diagram reverse their slopes in the morning and in the evening, at least in theory.
     
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  16. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    "Line" is better terminology, although "Non-Uniform Density Transition Zone" is still meaningless. Here's the dividing line

    Metabunk 2019-02-11 08-53-52.

    What it is really is a "critical angle" below which there's a total internal reflection, but these reflections are occurring at a variety of altitudes and distances and refractive indices.
    Metabunk 2019-02-11 09-02-28.
     
  17. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    isnt the same thing likely to happen in two weeks since the temperatures will be about the same?
     
  18. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    No, it's going to be warmer, 7°C to 11°C, according to Weather.com's 10-day forecast. This will match very well with the water temperature, which will be around 8°C. So very good conditions overall, for avoiding mirages.

    However, it does not take much at all to pop a laser over the horizon. Hopefully with all the other lights then any refraction should be somewhat apparent. The problem is going to be when they go down to 3ft above sea level. If it's dark, then the refraction will be hard to determine.
     
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  19. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    well at least the people won't be freezing as bad.
     
  20. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    It's all pretty ridiculous. Someone can just pop down there in the daytime and take a photo of the pier. John has already got lots of photos that show the curve obscuring the Brighton beach from Worthing.
    [​IMG]
    As discussed in the OP. This new test adds nothing except the potential of hard to interpret results with an out of context laser dot.
     
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  21. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    yea but he needs visuals where he can say the Earth is Flat, silly.
     
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  22. Mendel

    Mendel Member

    The red line (the "mirror") is convex, and like a convex mirror, compresses the image. Is this line straight in your flat Earth refraction model, i.e. is this a way to prove the globe?
     
  23. Mendel

    Mendel Member

    a globe by day, a plane by night
     
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  24. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    that actually at least makes sense. if the bendy light makes the earth look like a globe during the day (which it does), then without the light it would be a plane.
     
  25. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Kind of. On a flat earth an inferior mirage has a lot less distortion and goes all the way down to where the gradient is steepest. So the amount that's hidden in reality is a good indicator. Compare these. Flat first:
    Metabunk 2019-02-11 10-23-52.

    Exact same view on the globe:
    Metabunk 2019-02-11 10-28-22.

    Notice:
    A) the wooden pier structure is missing.
    B) The inverted image is compressed.
     
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  26. Loki Thorson

    Loki Thorson New Member

    He is right next to one of the most busiest shipping lanes in Europe, perfect opportunity to see large ships going and appearing over the horizon, or seeing if he can see France. It seems that a lot of time and effort is spent presenting what they think they should not be able to see, whereas they should be asking why they are not seeing what they should be able to see. After all, Isle of Man from Cleveleys at 65 miles, Pic Gaspard in the hundreds miles can be seen in the right conditions. So why not France from the south coast, or even Belgium or Holland (the low countries).

    However, it is good for him to be trying this in as many conditions as he can...build up the data. Just hope he learns something from all of it.
     
  27. Mendel

    Mendel Member

    You can't learn from that experiment because it is not answering a useful question.
    Can we see a light although we should not? Yes, because of refraction.
    Can we not see a light, although we should? Yes, because of refraction.
    The question that Flat Earth needs to be asking on this is,
    a) how does air pressure affect refraction,
    b) does the refraction we observe bend the light up or down?
    Repeating an observation that you know can't decide your question is just cargo cult science (Feynman).
     
  28. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    isn't he trying to answer that? isnt that why he is taking the temperature of the sea and the air at 1 meter?
     
  29. Mendel

    Mendel Member

    Well, no. He already knows it refracts downwards, because he has ignored the effects of altitude and pressure.
    image.
    He put out this video in January before officially announcing the Pier2Pier experiment. He later published another video on refraction which no longer has any reference to height or pressure. I think both videos feature upside-down pictures of sugar water tanks.
     
  30. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    hhmm.. he uses an awful lot of scientism in that video to prove his point and form his conclusions.
     
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