1. tadaaa

    tadaaa Active Member

    Interesting read about Lenny Pozner and his quest to reclaim the memory of his son (the youngest victim of the Sandy Hook tragedy) from the "hoaxers"

    It is interesting because Lenny was an avid listener to Alex Jones and self confessed conspiracy theorist

    "Lenny may have been the first Newtown parent to discover that conspiracy theorists didn’t believe his son had been killed, because he used to be a serious conspiracy theorist himself. “I probably listened to an Alex Jones podcast after I dropped the kids off at school that morning,” Pozner said, referencing the fearmongering proprietor of InfoWars."

    http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/09/the-sandy-hook-hoax.html
     
  2. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    sounds like he has some work still to do in his recovery as a CTist.





    I mean seriously, in what Universe will his son ever be erased?

    In the ultra-microscopic universe of a few hundred false-flaggers? Please. Millions upon millions of people around the world still hold SH close to their hearts and millions always will. I went to a storage unit office last Christmas many towns away from Newtown and they had angel cut outs with all the kids names covering the walls. People all over the country participate in events remembering and honoring the victims. Some place in North Carolina just planted 26 trees to remember the victims.

    His son is not ever going to be erased. Sandy Hook will never be forgotten.
     
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  3. Svartbjørn

    Svartbjørn Senior Member

    Unfortunately SH will be forgotten. Its only been about 4 years, so its still very fresh in a lot of people's minds, but give it another year or two.. maybe 3.. something else will happen, something else will come along and itll fade into the background. How many people actively remember the 1996 Olympic Bombing? No one's thought about it in 20 years, except for maybe the people that were most affected by it. Without looking up the name, who was the security guard that got blamed for the bombing? That got investigated for MONTHS, had his entire life torn apart, and have people.. to this DAY, that still think he did it.. when the subject is brought up? Very very few people. I was 17 in 1996, I grew up just outside of Atlanta and *I* cant even remember all the details.

    How many people remember the names of the victims in the Oklahoma Federal Building bombing? The only names we remember are Terry Nichols and Tim Mcveigh. We remember that a pre-school was demolished, that several hundred people died, but do we remember who they were? Anyone from that area may remember, the families will definitely remember, but how many of us do? I cant remember a single name, and I was in Highschool when that happened.

    Once Ponzer and his family are gone, no one in the main consciousness of this country or the world will remember the kid's name. So in that respect, Ponzer is right.. his son will be erased.. mostly only remembered as "that kid who might not have existed" or some oddly mundane thing like that.

    How many tragedies have occured over the 10 thousand years that mankind has existed where we've said "no one will ever forget" and yet here we are, having no idea that those things ever existed. The internet will make it last longer, Im sure.. the next iteration of the internet will probably carry it on, but eventually even those systems will fade away and the memories will be gone.

    There will be people, like you @deirdre , who will remember because its personal to you.. but to the vast majority of people around the world and around the country, Sandy Hook will fade into obscurity until another crisis or tragedy occurs that has some striking similarities. I'm not trying to be cold, or inhumane, but I can totally see where Ponzer is coming from as a father.
     
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  4. Hama Neggs

    Hama Neggs Senior Member

    Wow. That's an intense read. Shocking, what Pozner has been through.
     
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  5. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    SH will be brought up everytime there is a school shooting. Every time someone in America mentions guns for the next 500 years someone on either side of the aisle will bring up SH. I remember Columbine, I remember the Amish shooting. People remember things that arent always personal to them.

    10,000 years? pfft. God i hope people arent still talking about it or remembering in 10,000 years! Even 9/11 won't be remembered in 10,000 years.

    Will individual names be remembered? Doubtful. But I dont think individual names are remembered by most now. And of course unless his son became famous on the level of a Nicholas Cage or Stephen Hawkin or David Bowie, his name wouldnt be remembered in history either.



    bunk. maybe in conspiracy circles or amongst conspiracy types, which is my point. I dont remember conspiracy things about Columbine people, because i ignore conspiracy things about Columbine. Conspiracy theorists who live in their lttle peer bubble seem to think the false flagger world is alot bigger than it is.
     
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  6. tadaaa

    tadaaa Active Member


    But it must feel quite personal and raw to him - they maybe small in number but they make a lot of noise and their reach is long

    CT's in the UK peddle this nonsense
     
  7. tadaaa

    tadaaa Active Member

    To add, one gets the impression that his "quest" is a coping mechanism

    And who are we (I have 5 children) to begrudge him that :-(


    Edit - and to add finally there maybe a form of redemption in all this for him, as a self confessed former CT'r
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2016
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  8. Svartbjørn

    Svartbjørn Senior Member

    Thats what I was referring to.. the conspiracy angle, my fault for not being more clear. As to remembering for the next 500 years every time there's a school shooting.. thats a different conversation all together and one I think the two of us need to have privately or maybe in another thread lol.. we're both stubborn enough that itll derail this one. I get what you're saying De.. I promise I do, I understand how personal SH is for you.. and I mean that in a very kind and caring way, not a handwavium or dismissive way.

    Unfortunately, the facts outweigh the emotion here. When people think of school shootings, the vast majority of us think back to Columbine because it was one of the first to really hit the papers/tv and go national if not global. For the kids that are in high school, they'll probably remember Sandy Hook, but they'll be more likely remember Virgina Tech because it was closer to their age range. Younger kids, may or may not remember Sandy Hook because they may not have been old enough for it to really impact them. Some 5th and 6th graders might, but itll be a smaller segment of the population. I remember Columbine because they were kids MY age that died, and kids MY age that did the killing. The shooters reminded us of all the kids in our school that looked like them, acted like them, listened ot the same music that they did (which was me at the time). It had a more visceral impact because it was more personal to US.. just as Sandy Hook is very personal to you. Thats what Im trying to get across.

    To the people that this touched on a personal level, itll be burned into their minds and souls forever. This is going to sound very cruel and cold, but Sandy Hook never touched me on that level, it doesnt mean to me what it means to other people. It doesnt mean to me what Orlando did, but thats because I had friends that died there, so its a personal thing for me. Thats what makes the difference. For you, for Ponzer, for the brothers and sisters, cousins, aunts, uncles, moms and dads that lost a loved one at Sandy Hook.. itll be an indelible mark on them for the rest of their lives.. but for the rest of us (aside from a few), itll fade away in time.
     
  9. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    it has nothing to do with personal or not. People remember Columbine for the reasons you stated but they will remember SH because it was "babies". Maybe you dont remember when you read about little children being shot (before sandy hook) but i do.

    And, this thread is about the LP article. Whether or not a specific event is "forgotten unless something reminds people" after 100 years or not, has no bearing on the statement that (paraphrased) Noah or any of the kids are going to be "erased" because of CTs and their bunk.

    Heck i give Marilyn and Elvis maybe another 50 years then they are forgotten too. My original statement was meant to be taken in the context of normal human reality.
     
  10. Rory

    Rory Active Member

    I don't know if this is pertinent, but I've barely heard of Sandy Hook, so don't have much to remember or forget. And I must not be unique in that (probably I was in the UK when it happened).

    Dunblane, Columbine...they're about the only school shootings I could guess with any conviction where they took place, when they happened, what kind of people were the perpetrators.

    Though not a single name has stayed in my head.
     
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  11. Tobes

    Tobes Member


    The problem is, that we live in a world where it almost seems like there's no objective reality. There are people who think Alex Jones, Breitbart, Fox News, various Facebook memes Youtube videos and chain emails are reliable sources of information because they tell people "what the mainstream media won't tell them."

    Through sheer repetition, something that's not true can be accepted as true by a great many people. Look at how many things that have been debunked here and elsewhere, that you hear people repeat as accepted fact. Heck, there's a guy who could be President next year who repeats a lot of those things (not necessarily about Sandy Hook, but many other things).

    There's a talk show host in Boston who also has a column in a Boston paper. One day, a guy called him and asked how they came up with the figure ($2 million, I think) that Barack Obama spent to seal his records. The host replied "$2 million is the accepted amount." No effort to fact check, no explaining to the caller that those records were not, in fact, "sealed." Most of them were not available to the public because of the same privacy laws that protect all of us. Some actually were available to the public and the money the President spent was in part the normal amount for legal fees that a campaign spends at the end of an election and also, because when someone sues him, he has to pay a lawyer to defend him. So people accept that the President is sealing records that we should all have access to because people say that over and over.

    You point out to these people that they're wrong about these things and you refer them to reputable sources and they say that the source is "biased" without pointing out how the debunking is wrong (Who is funding them is irrelevant. Either what they're saying is true or it isn't) or they say "that's just an opinion."

    This is why Mr. Pozner and others need to push back. Otherwise, there's always someone who hasn't been paying attention who will hear that his son was killed twice or that the FBI said nobody was murdered in Newtown in 2012 or any number of other false claims and think there might be something to them.

    Edited to fix typos.
     
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  12. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    Obviously lots of people are misreading the intention of what i said. You do realize you are on a debunking site right? I'm well aware of why we debunk.

    I disagree with this. I know this is a debunking site so people that come here are focusing on the CT world. But there is a large and vast world out there that is not interested in the CT world or it's claims. They certainly arent buying into any false flag nonsense where the victims are crisis actors. I didnt even know a CT world existed on the internet until a few years ago and all my friends i told about it were like "huh? there is?"

    My point was, that as far as the minds and hearts of people that matter, victims of tragedy will never be 'erased' by the likes of hoaxers. And it's important for Mr. Pozner -and all victims of tragedy that get mocked and belittle on the internet- to remember that We greatly outnumber "them". And we always will.
     
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  13. trevor

    trevor Active Member

    I don't see sandy hook ever being forgotten. I mean, even columbine is still talked about on tv and that happened nearly 20 years ago. Sure, in 10 or 15 years ago, it won't be talked about as much, but it's definitely one for the history books. Sandy hook was a BIG one. Also, it's different from the world trade center bombings, oklahoma bombing, and columbine shooting because it was mainly infants involved, not adults (besides 2 or 3 teachers). Reading about a bunch of 5 year olds getting slaughtered will make more of an impact rather then a bunch of adults being killed.
     
  14. DougW

    DougW Member

    Sadly I 'had' a good friend who thinks SH was faked :-(
     
  15. JRBids

    JRBids Senior Member

    I think it's true there is a large and vast world that is not interested in conspiracy theories, however many of them still repeat bunk. Be it political bunk as in the $2 million to seal Obama's records, or thinking "hmmm that exhaust from planes can't be GOOD" the claims are repeated and no matter how out there they are people believe them who don't hang out on conspiracy forums or FB pages. Back in the "urban legend" days, pre internet, I was commuted on the rail road daily with the same group of people who all chatted together during the ride, and I heard NUMEROUS "friend of a friend" stories. "....and when she woke up the guy was GONE and 'welcome to the world of AIDS' was written on the mirror!!" "....I heard they're drugging people in bars and stealing their livers!". I once heard a major talk radio host in NYC at the time relating this friend of a friend story about a child being abducted in Disneyland. It doesn't have to be a conspiracy theorist to spread bunk, there are gullible people everywhere.
     
  16. NoParty

    NoParty Senior Member


    I mostly agree with both of these.

    Yes, hanging out here, we choose to definitely see a disproportionate amount of bunk.
    And though I think Tobes' "...almost seems like there's no objective reality..." may go a bit further than I would,
    I do sense that the YouTube age (where people can easily rally around an absurd assertion, then shut out dissenting voices)
    is getting us, sadly, closer to that. I just read this last night:
    http://www.salon.com/2016/09/11/the...es-are-fox-ifying-mainstream-television-news/
    and--while it's more partisan than I like, as one expects from Salon--the fact that the bar is getting lower is hard to deny. True, most people haven't even heard of crisis actors, or the strange new way CTs are using the term...
    but a presidential candidate can baselessly assert
    "I watched in Jersey City, N.J., where thousands and thousands of people were cheering as that building was coming down. Thousands of people were cheering" and not have it significantly affect their image.
     
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  17. Spectrar Ghost

    Spectrar Ghost Senior Member

    Journalism is telling the truth. Politics is telling people what they want to hear.

    The sad fact is there's a large part of the population that wants to hear that all Muslims are the enemy, because it justifies their preconceived biases.
     
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  18. Hama Neggs

    Hama Neggs Senior Member

    Or simply because it's sensational. Seriously... I think a lot of people like to see stuff that gives them an adrenaline burst.
     
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  19. DougW

    DougW Member

    I think some journalism is about telling the truth - I think the rest is about selling papers and click bait and appeasing their employer.
     
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  20. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    The bar is definitely low. I think that is a huge point to the Pozner article (a bit off topic maybe for the forum topic of "out of the rabbit hole".. but tough.) This statement


    is pure bunk. ALL these outlets. News shows, FB, YOUTUBE, Twitter etc etc have a choice. Free speech is one thing. Demeaning, threatening, accusing or harassing a child (alive or deceased) does NOT have to be allowed by these outlets. They are private companies and have a choice what they allow to be posted on their sites and shows.

    If Trump representatives are shown to lie X% of the time...whatever their guidelines.., then they should not be allowed back. If people have a problem with that - tough.

    "honour, courage and virtue mean everything. Power and money mean nothing" (paraphrased from 2nd hand lions)

    These sites and shows that allow hoaxer type or troll type activity.. and you DO know it when you see it...only care about money. They have no virtue, no honour. They hide behind "free speech" and only care about their bottom lines.
     
  21. Spectrar Ghost

    Spectrar Ghost Senior Member

    I would disagree that that is really journalism... But point taken.
     
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