1. Jacob Aman

    Jacob Aman New Member

    http://www.geoengineeringwatch.org/well-known-scientist-sounds-the-alarm-on-geoengineering/

    Assuming that Marvin Herndon did in fact send this letter to the San Diego City Council and Mayor's Office, as Wigington reports, does anyone know which specific rainwater analytical data or studies to which he would be referring?

    I work in the environmental engineering field in the Monterey Bay area and have numerous friends who are convinced that the chemtrail conspiracy is occurring. However, I have had a very difficult time finding any air monitoring, surface water or rainwater analytical data that would indicate anomalous rises in the identified potential contaminants of concern. Looking at environmental quality data regularly, it perplexes me how folks can be targeting this issue above the many other significant and well known sources of contamination (which largely impact poorer communities, like farmworkers).

    I remain open minded about this subject, and am well aware of the history and current practice of cloud seeding (I worked on organic farms for almost 10 years, some of which was in a large industrial ag setting).

    Your thoughts as to what data this nuclear chemist is referring to? I hope not Dane Wiginton's data (which has been previously debunked and represents only his localized setting in Shasta).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 20, 2015
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  2. SR1419

    SR1419 Senior Member

    Who knows?..."reportedly" could mean anything...Dane told him, he read it on the internet etc...As a scientist, you would think he would reference specific test results rather than rely on hearsay.

    As for cloud seeding- deliberate cloud seeding to enhance precipitation has nothing to do with the white, persistent trails people see in the sky.

    Are you finding barium, strontium etc...in your monitoring?
     
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  3. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    I think he's simply repeating chemtrail mythology. Seems like he's been convinced by the chemtrail theory promoters, and is simply repeating their claims. I doubt he's even referring to any tests in particular - just the belief that some tests somewhere showed something.

    While he's a scientist, he's well out of the mainstream. He believes in a kind of "expanding earth" theory, and thinks the current plate tectonic theory is wrong.
    http://www.nuclearplanet.com/
     
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  4. David Fraser

    David Fraser Senior Member

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  5. Jacob Aman

    Jacob Aman New Member

    Thank you for posting that interview on C2C, David.

    I don't have access to C2C, but perhaps this video will stay up (not sure what your policy here at Metabunk is for posting videos that may be in copyright infringement). The discussion on problems with the scientific establishment starts at 1:20:00 and the chemtrail discussion starts at 1:33:00:



    From the Coast to Coast bio of Mr. Herndon:
    Also see his recent independent publication:


    His planetary geology theories are intriguing, however his perspective on global warming is not unique. I have met with the mathematician Ralph Abraham, who has been a dynamical systems and chaos modeler since the late 1950s. The earliest chaos theory models were centered on weather patterns. Ralph's perspective is that the mathemical models for human generated global warming based based on dynamical systems functions that were never meant to be predictive (high degree of variables?). I suspect that Mr. Herndon is deriving his perspective on global warming from that camp.

    Notes after listening to Herndon's C2C talk:
    • I don't get what Herndon is saying about the assumption that ocean temperature is assumed to be constant. I've never seen that stated.
    • He ties "Global Warming Agenda" to chemtrails, stating that the agendas are interrelated.
    • He cites mostly anecdotal evidence regarding chemtrails. "Grossly abnormal" cloud patterns in recent years in his area.
    • He states that he was "essentially excommunicated from the scientific community" after a controversial publication regarding the earth's core.
    I think that it is fair to say that you are correct Mick: Herndon is well outside of the scientific mainstream and his isolation impacts his perceptions. With respect to Dane Wigington's excitement about Herndon's support of the chemtrail awareness campaign, it appears to be solely an appeal to authority, with no additional evidence (besides Herndon's visual observations of the sky in San Diego) presented.
     
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  6. Jacob Aman

    Jacob Aman New Member

    Yes, I used to watch cloud seeding in east of the Cascade mountains in Washington State. The cloud cover was localized and at lower elevations, and I spoke with pilots who used silver iodide to seed clouds. I was far more concerned about the 2,4-D that was being sprayed over my house.

    In my work, I focus on primarily hydrogeological data; soil, soil vapor and groundwater. Sometimes I evaluate surface water and air data. My review of analytical data pertaining to chemtrails has been of regional air monitoring sites throughout California, particularly in the SF Bay Area (where my friends constantly show photos of "chemtrails"). While strontium is not often analyzed, aluminum levels are universally within historically insignificant levels.

    When I have shown friends this data, they retreat to believing that the Air Board is altering the data.
     
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  7. SR1419

    SR1419 Senior Member


    Thats really interesting- thanks for sharing.

    What is their take on the relatively basic science of contrails- how/when they form and why they sometimes persist and spread...and the historical and scientific record that shows this has always happened?

    Their belief that contrails "don't" persist and spread and never have is the basic premise for the whole theory
     
  8. TEEJ

    TEEJ Senior Member

    I agree, Mick. He appears on the following talk radio show and promotes the latest Tanker Enemy production.

    26:40 "There is a really excellent Italian video ....... on You Tube googling Tanker Enemy. It is an excellent video with much, much science in that."

    Part 2 of the interview is only really relevant to the chemtrail discussion. See from 2:40.

    Mind boggling phone in question to Herndon from 27:30. The claim by this poor woman doesn't seem to phase him. He only wishes that he knew more about nano-particles!



    He does have a You Tube Channel. So far nothing on chemtrails.

    https://www.youtube.com/user/MarvinHerndon/videos
     
  9. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    Did he write his own Wikipedia page? It reads weird.
     
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  10. After 20 years, the name of Dr Herndon has reappeared in my life in connection with the chemtrails hoax. I have just this afternoon had this exchange and cannot believe for a second that the individual with whom I am corresponding has a background in science. Sure, Herndon's "nuclear fission earth" was never taken seriously, but this is bordering on the insane. Pictures of contrails! Any commentary welcome.
     

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  11. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    Neil, it might be wise to edit those images to remove Herndon's address and email address?
     
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  12. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Herndon puts those addresses on everything he's written for the last 20 years.
    [​IMG]
     
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  13. L Hayes

    L Hayes New Member

    It seems he is well known for not having evidence for his claims. Interesting article.

    Crackpots, geniuses, and how to tell the difference
    http://boingboing.net/2012/07/10/crackpots-geniuses-and-how-t.html
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 27, 2015
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  14. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    So, once again they had to go to the bottom of the barrel to find someone who would "believe".
     
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  15. I had thought to do that until I saw on Google that he's free and easy with his home address.
     
  16. L Hayes

    L Hayes New Member

    I've been doing a lot of research on this man. Several things to note. He hasn't worked in Academia ever. He has also been known to write books that never deliver any evidence to back up his claims. He owns his own business and clearly a businessman. In all these new articles and in several videos I've found he is plugging his new book heavily. His book is something "chemtrailers" would probably read because he claims the science community is covering up many things. Not only would chemtrailers buy this but so would anyone who believes in ANY conspiracy. My conclusion is he is very aware there is not one shred of evidence to support his claim and he is simply using this as a means for profit. He just wants to sell his book and since he isn't in Academia it's not like he cares about what his "peers" think. This is a total sham. He should be ashamed of himself. I'm in marketing and advertising and this has publicity stunt written all over it.
     
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  17. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    It does not seem like that to me. The amount of extra sales he's going to get from chemtrail believers is going to be in the single figures, if it's even greater than zero. He's retired, and I doubt he's ever made any money from his theories. It seems more likely he's simply a classic example of a "crank" scientist (someone with a highly individual theory, far outside the mainstream), and has simply been convinced the chemtrail theory is correct.

    Either way, using what he says as some kind of evidence is a fallacy, and argument from false authority. This is not his area of expertise, and all he is doing is repeating the usual chemtrail arguments that were debunked many years ago.
     
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  18. L Hayes

    L Hayes New Member

    His book isn't about "Chemtrails" though. It is a book ALL conspiracy [fans] would read. That being said he knows that most people who believe in one conspiracy usually believes in all of them. The demographic is not just chemtrail believers. He knows people in conspiracies in general would buy his book. Why else would he all of a sudden come out an say he believes in them at the same time his book comes out? It makes perfect sense to me. It's stunt. He of all people should know what evidence means and he hasn't shown any. Even after several attempts to ask him.
     
  19. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    "Herndon's Earth and the Dark Side of Science"
    http://www.amazon.com/Herndons-Eart...tmm_pap_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1422465199&sr=1-1

    The book does actually include chemtrails:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  20. L Hayes

    L Hayes New Member

    I'm having trouble finding just exactly where you found this...

    I see it says, "In a blog updated on June 1, 2014 and published on huffingtonpost.com , Bill Chameides, hardly a “conspiracy theorist” but the Dean of Duke University’s Nicholas School of the Environment, writes: etc etc.

    Even if he does hit on the subject it's still not a book "about" chemtrails. It's much broader than that and is targeted for the conspiracy community. No question.

    Here is what I see in the description on Amazon.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 28, 2015
  21. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    So given that the book includes chemtrails, I'd up my number of potential new sales. But I still think he actually believes it.
     
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  22. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    It's in the free sample of the Kindle version of the book.

    [​IMG]
     
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  23. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    The "ACDC" thing was an April Fool joke:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-chameides/obama-takes-bold-step-to_b_5069973.html
     
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  24. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    @Neil Pennington, since you are corresponding with him, perhaps you could raise the issue of his chemtrail belief being partly founded on an April Fool article?
     
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  25. L Hayes

    L Hayes New Member

    Thanks Mick. Well it is a travesty either way. Whether he is knowingly doing it or is a victim of the chemtrail propaganda. Someone with credentials like this should know to back up claims with evidence. Something he never does. I did see he has a reputation of making claims but failing to provide any facts in most of his work.
     
  26. L Hayes

    L Hayes New Member

    Wow Classic... I've seen this article many times and I think the mere fact he used this April Fools article as proof should be an indication to most intellectual people that his "findings" are pure fallacy.
     
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  27. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    It interesting that he removed the bits that were particularly silly. He wrote:

    Which was reduced from this (with especially silly bits highlighted)
    Which does appear to be a deliberate attempt to deceive.
     
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  28. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    i havent looked into him that close, but is it possible that due to his age and his peers (ethics wise) back in the day..HE is the one being deceived?

    His whole career seems to be "theoretical", which seems like a legitimate 'part' of the science process to me. Granted there were conspiracy theories (mostly the aliens) back in his day, but perhaps the idea that people PURPOSEFULLY deceive is an 'alien' concept to him.

    Alot of old people look at you like "huh?" when you tell them about trolls and the current internet culture. They say things like "why would they do that?".

    What's that saying? "It's hard to eteach an old dog, new tricks"

    I think he probably had good intentions with his old theories, which received alot of 'negative' reviews. So it's not a stretch to imagine he believes Wigington for ex, has good intentions and is just the victim of the same backlash from the scientific community. The unappreciated genius thing.

    This certainly isnt his field. And Wigington et al do kinda make it sound like they know what they are talking about. Him going to college for nuclear physics back in the 70's doesnt give him 'special' protection from being deceived in other areas of science... or by his local mechanic, plumber etc!

    As far as him not remembering contrails. That's not so far fetched, you really DON't notice them until you start to specifically look for them! Same goes with all cloud types. People think they would remember but thats not true. How many things in our towns do we drive by everyday, but if asked "what color is the dumpster next to Dunkin Donuts?" we honestly would have no idea, until we specifically LOOKED.

    I think he's more a victim, but probably IS enjoying the attention he is getting.... so that is preventing him from being completely objective and more skeptical. maybe.
     
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  29. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    And it sounds from what he wrote that he only just noticed them, maybe even just in 2014.

    This is very common, there's two ways this can happen.

    1 - It's a unusually heavy contrail day, they wonder what's making so many trails, they look it up and they find the "chemtrail" theory. Then they get really interested, so start noticing the trails a lot more.

    2 - Someone tells them about "chemtrails", it sounds interesting, so they start to look for them. Shortly after they see some contrails that persist, and so they are hooked.

    Either way they really only start noticing them when they hear about chemtrails. The problem (for the theory) with this is that everyone starts at different times, even people who live in the same place.
     
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  30. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    It would be great to point out to Herndon his mistake, then ask him to explain why he did that by choosing:

    1. Deliberate deception
    2. Senility
    3. Carelessness
    4. Confirmation bias
    5. Didn't give a damn
    6. All of the above

    He needs to be accountable for what he does.

    "James Winkywinc", "tied one end of the bungee-like cords to commercial jets and the other to the jet stream and then used the jets' trajectory to pull that baby southward"...... really????
     
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  31. @Mick West

    G'day Mick, I have posed that question, but the good Dr seems to have clammed up. Here's the full correspondence thus far, in chronological order.

    You will probably see that I gave up being too serious near the end and maybe should not have mentioned that the conversation was being shared.

    I do look forward to a reply from Dr Herndon.
     

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  32. L Hayes

    L Hayes New Member

    Here is an interesting article written about him.
    In the article it talks about how Herndon has struggled with his "research" and no one takes him seriously in the scientific community.

    Here is an excerpt.
    http://www.downloadtheuniverse.com/dtu/2012/07/ebooks-and-the-democratization-of-crackpottery.html
     
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  33. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

  34. M Bornong

    M Bornong Senior Member

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  35. Hevach

    Hevach Senior Member

    It's hardly due to one blog post, they're big on clickbait and don't know the meaning of the word retraction. They've had the scientific credentials of Highlights Magazine for a long time.
     
  36. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    The Huffington Post piece was an April Fool's joke, and quite an obvious one at that. As noted before, he (or someone) removed the bits of the article that made that obvious.

     
  37. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    It turns out that Herndon buying obvious satire is not that unusual and has scientific evidence behind it.

    Some Italian reseachers found what we have all seen is that CT'ers tend to live in echo chambers and will much more often repeat satirical comments no matter how ridiculous:



    I noted that in a recent broadcast Dane Wigington referenced Jim Phelps as providing credible information about commercial airliners being involved in "chemtrails". Reading Phelps claim to be "The Inventor of Chemtrails", ordinary people would quickly see that he probably has a few screws loose yet Wigington buys the enchilada:

    http://www.doewatch.com/jimphelps/
     
  38. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    your video wont play for me now.. but, i think ive mentioned before, that people from other countries often dont get sarcasm/satire AT ALL. Is Herdon American born?
     
  39. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    Yes, and I am ashamed to say that:oops: he and I both have degrees from the same University.
     
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  40. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member