Woody's observations of contrails in MN

Woody

Member
You said that the roll-out of the dimming operation was 2009/2010. I simply gave reference to my personal continuous time series of observation that spans that date.

My discontinuous time series for the mid-Atlantic goes back a few decades and has the same result.



Yep. Much less particulate air pollution in the lower atmosphere. Makes it easier to see contrails.
History indicates 1970 as the institution of the EPA, 1972 switch to Unleaded, Leaded fuel pulled from the market 1982 and leaded premium was priced out of the market for the hot rodders. World began to warm up during this time from its cold dimming effect. 1996 was the year that both my research and science agree upon, the year it began to warm. Science and my research both confirmed an estimated 25 year delay before changes in heating/cooling occurred. The other era was WWI to the Great Dust Bowl, just over 20 years. This is in conjunction with understanding Global Dimming and the cooling effect it had. If you are less than 40 then you have really no knowledge of this era. To give you an idea, everyone here remembers the year that we were below zero for the entire month of January and NEVER went above zero, then on the 31st it went above zero and we were all disappointed, it had been so long...why not one more day? Don't recall the year, but I believe it was the early 70's.
 

Woody

Member
You will NEVER get me to agree from a picture if a trail is a con-trail or one of these advanced Con-trails, show me one that remains airborne for 2 1/2 hours from a known commercial liner. I can show you them here daily, but we have to drive to find them and follow them. It just so happens that EVERY morning I follow the Jet Streams into the cities and as rush hour has increased, my time to watch them have too. After traveling around the nation I know they are doing it everywhere, but nothing like up here. Along the West Coast where Mick is it is easy to remain out of sight and go out to sea as the Jet Streams will bring them inland, so the West Coast is not a good place to pick them up from the ground. Continental climate conditions are flooded with them, and they also are international as I saw one fly over the US Canadian Border. I have mentioned before that this form of weather modification is taking place in Iraq and Israel, but not in Jordan, NONE of these flights are spotted there. In the Wikileaks documents supplied somewhere in here, the US Government indicates Jordan refuses to come on board with this. Hmmm, now how did I know this before that document if it wasn't for careful visual observation of the 2 types.
 

scombrid

Senior Member.
You will NEVER get me to agree from a picture if a trail is a con-trail or one of these advanced Con-trails,

JRBids was likely responding to the following comment with those photos:

Its impossible to see the skies from ground level with any clarity at a distance of 100 miles

His picture demonstrates that the trails are visible from quite a long distance and that is in air that wasn't even particularly clear.

Here in Florida I can see the tops of thunderheads down in Okeechobee from Volusia county. That's over 100 miles. Almost every morning in the summer when it is clear over land and there is nocturnal convection over warm Gulf and Atlantic waters you can observe the tops of the thunderheads in the Gulf at daybreak from the east coast. I can see flights on the Miami to Houston route leaving trails over the Gulf of Mexico from Satellite Beach. I have been working on the St. Johns River all day and watched them drift and spread starting as a thin line on the western horizon and being diffuse cirrus cloud, mare's tails, herringbone, etc... by the time they pass overhead on the east coast of FL hours later.
 

Woody

Member
Here Woody. Instead of relying on Flight Aware...call these people instead. Maybe even visit them in person. Don't get too crazy on them tho, you may get arrested.

The ops manager at the KMSP tower is
Arnie Yeske
612-713-4036
The tower manager is Elaine Buckner
612-713-4000
and
Chuck Miller
612-713-4059.
justin, I will, and thanks, is this the airport tower or another? Clouding the air with some form of vapor was the only option I found in deterring warming. The other day I was thinking to myself, I change brakes and clutches, spray paint and expose myself to fumes that require respirators including asbestos, so what is the big deal if they are? My research indicates a high quantity of Magnesium which is used in respirators that my kids use. Yes, it may alter the soil PH's, but I am sure the Government has this covered by increasing calcium in the fertilizers. I do know it is not typical to see a con-trail maintain for over 2 1/2 hours at different locations around the area every day, and anyone saying this is normal is not even capable of being truthful with themselves. One cannot identify these specific trails by watching the planes trails, through pictures or even video, only through observation over time, and this also requires being mobile.
 
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JRBids

Senior Member.
Just to show Woody that the contrails he saw probably weren't as close as he thought, the two photos above were taken from these locations, one shooting west overat the same time:

photosScreenshot (260).png
JRBids was likely responding to the following comment with those photos:



His picture demonstrates that the trails are visible from quite a long distance and that is in air that wasn't even particularly clear.

Here in Florida I can see the tops of thunderheads down in Okeechobee from Volusia county. That's over 100 miles. Almost every morning in the summer when it is clear over land and there is nocturnal convection over warm Gulf and Atlantic waters you can observe the tops of the thunderheads in the Gulf at daybreak from the east coast. I can see flights on the Miami to Houston route leaving trails over the Gulf of Mexico from Satellite Beach. I have been working on the St. Johns River all day and watched them drift and spread starting as a thin line on the western horizon and being diffuse cirrus cloud, mare's tails, herringbone, etc... by the time they pass overhead on the east coast of FL hours later.

Absolutely. My Facebook friend who lives miles away from me and I had a laugh when we both posted the sunset that evening, and the photos had the identical trails. I have no doubt they are the same. And I was struck by how the trail looked as far away in his photo as mine.
 

Woody

Member
JRBids was likely responding to the following comment with those photos:



His picture demonstrates that the trails are visible from quite a long distance and that is in air that wasn't even particularly clear.

Here in Florida I can see the tops of thunderheads down in Okeechobee from Volusia county. That's over 100 miles. Almost every morning in the summer when it is clear over land and there is nocturnal convection over warm Gulf and Atlantic waters you can observe the tops of the thunderheads in the Gulf at daybreak from the east coast. I can see flights on the Miami to Houston route leaving trails over the Gulf of Mexico from Satellite Beach. I have been working on the St. Johns River all day and watched them drift and spread starting as a thin line on the western horizon and being diffuse cirrus cloud, mare's tails, herringbone, etc... by the time they pass overhead on the east coast of FL hours later.
Florida is not Minnesota
 

Woody

Member
Ok, so people can stop making false claims of my ability to judge distance and your inabilities to judge it from Photos, here I passed under it at 11:43, still look like 100 miles away? Look at the haze in the Horizon, this is 30 to 40 miles a day and is typical here, lots of swamps and water and no oceans jets streams, continental climate. upload_2013-10-6_19-26-27.jpeg
 

Woody

Member
When you pass under a cloud and watch it as you drive, it is far easier to judge its distance than an arm chair quarterback punching keys on a keyboard that is just looking for a debate. Minnesota gets to -25, Cali and Florida do not. Florida and Minnesota have vast swamps, but different species within them and ours freeze solid yearly. We have temperate, hardwood forest with prairie land. We have over 12,000 lakes, 50,000 swamps and 3 fish too. We are not impacted by any oceans or seas, meaning continental climate, Cali and Florida is directly affected by them. You are trying to tell me I can see a storm in St. Cloud from further than my dads home in Bloomington, 72 miles away, well, your crazy, not here. No matter what, and I have tried, it has never been possible to see the sky scrapers in Minneapolis from here in St. Cloud, even from my roof. To much stagnant water vaporizing during the summer, and too many car and power plant plumes filling the skies with vapor in the winter to see this far. If it could be seen, winter would be the best time. The furthest on record is over 700 km on an ideal day in Antarctica, so as I said before, you can see that far, even further, but circumstances very greatly depending upon your location on the planet. http://mintaka.sdsu.edu/GF/explain/atmos_refr/horizon.html I have read it, I understand it
 

Woody

Member
"Here in San Diego, we rarely can see San Clemente Island, about 125 km offshore. The top of the island should just be visible above our horizon with normal refraction, but it's concealed by “airlight” during the day. Even in the clear air of a “Santa Ana,” which causes looming and raises more of the island above the apparent horizon, it's often hard to make out."
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
"Here in San Diego, we rarely can see San Clemente Island, about 125 km offshore. The top of the island should just be visible above our horizon with normal refraction, but it's concealed by “airlight” during the day. Even in the clear air of a “Santa Ana,” which causes looming and raises more of the island above the apparent horizon, it's often hard to make out."

But it's not seven miles high, is it? It's 1,800 feet high, about 1/20th the height of a contrail.

Both your contrails above end just a few degrees above the horizon. That puts that end of them many tens of miles away, possibly 100 miles.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
When you pass under a cloud and watch it as you drive, it is far easier to judge its distance than an arm chair quarterback punching keys on a keyboard that is just looking for a debate. Minnesota gets to -25, Cali and Florida do not. Florida and Minnesota have vast swamps, but different species within them and ours freeze solid yearly. We have temperate, hardwood forest with prairie land. We have over 12,000 lakes, 50,000 swamps and 3 fish too. We are not impacted by any oceans or seas, meaning continental climate, Cali and Florida is directly affected by them. You are trying to tell me I can see a storm in St. Cloud from further than my dads home in Bloomington, 72 miles away, well, your crazy, not here. No matter what, and I have tried, it has never been possible to see the sky scrapers in Minneapolis from here in St. Cloud, even from my roof. To much stagnant water vaporizing during the summer, and too many car and power plant plumes filling the skies with vapor in the winter to see this far. If it could be seen, winter would be the best time. The furthest on record is over 700 km on an ideal day in Antarctica, so as I said before, you can see that far, even further, but circumstances very greatly depending upon your location on the planet. http://mintaka.sdsu.edu/GF/explain/atmos_refr/horizon.html I have read it, I understand it

How can you see the moon here then? It's 238,000 miles away, and near the horizon.
upload_2013-10-6_18-6-31.png
 

Woody

Member
At 11:43 I was under it, at 12:05 you state 100 miles away. To accomplish this I would have to head south and average a speed of 261 mph to be 100 miles from it in 23 minutes.
 

justanairlinepilot

Senior Member.
justin, I will, and thanks, is this the airport tower or another? Clouding the air with some form of vapor was the only option I found in deterring warming. The other day I was thinking to myself, I change brakes and clutches, spray paint and expose myself to fumes that require respirators including asbestos, so what is the big deal if they are? My research indicates a high quantity of Magnesium which is used in respirators that my kids use. Yes, it may alter the soil PH's, but I am sure the Government has this covered by increasing calcium in the fertilizers. I do know it is not typical to see a con-trail maintain for over 2 1/2 hours at different locations around the area every day, and anyone saying this is normal is not even capable of being truthful with themselves. One cannot identify these specific trails by watching the planes trails, through pictures or even video, only through observation over time, and this also requires being mobile.

Woody are you really reading what I posted? My post says "the tower". Its the Minneapolis international airport tower. Just call them, they are public servants so they will listen to your concerns, I've talked with them personally many times and they are very professional and "Minnesota nice". I'm just warning you tho, if you talk to them like you are here you may not get very far as they may view you as delusional and a threat to ATC security.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
At 11:43 you are "under" it, but the end is still near the horizon. At 11:55 you are no longer under it, but you seem to be moving towards it. So what's going on there?
 

Woody

Member
How can you see the moon here then? It's 238,000 miles away, and near the horizon.
upload_2013-10-6_18-6-31.png[/quo
Woody are you really reading what I posted? My post says "the tower". Its the Minneapolis international airport tower. Just call them, they are public servants so they will listen to your concerns, I've talked with them personally many times and they are very professional and "Minnesota nice". I'm just warning you tho, if you talk to them like you are here you may not get very far as they may view you as delusional and a threat to ATC security.
When you put KMSP, I was thinking TV station, I assumed you were talking about the airport, that's why I questioned it
 

Woody

Member
Here Woody. Instead of relying on Flight Aware...call these people instead. Maybe even visit them in person. Don't get too crazy on them tho, you may get arrested.

The ops manager at the KMSP tower is
Arnie Yeske
612-713-4036
The tower manager is Elaine Buckner
612-713-4000
and
Chuck Miller
612-713-4059.
No, thats KSTP the tv station, I don't recall, LOL
At 11:43 you are "under" it, but the end is still near the horizon. At 11:55 you are no longer under it, but you seem to be moving towards it. So what's going on there?
 
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Woody

Member
At 11:43 you are "under" it, but the end is still near the horizon. At 11:55 you are no longer under it, but you seem to be moving towards it. So what's going on there?
The trails was above I 94 and headed East, I passed under it and ran parrallel with it to the cities, I was traveling slightly more south, we were both heading East. The Horizon ahead is about 30 miles, a great deal of clouds and haze this day, it all becomes a distant haze.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
Woody, I live in Dallas, no ocean nearby and I regularly see clouds that are along the Red River, the Red River is around a 100 miles away. I will also see them when they are the other side of Ft Worth.

I have done a lot of camping out and one learns to judge the distance to an approaching storm, so you can be ready for it.
 

justanairlinepilot

Senior Member.
Wiki quote

The prefix K is (mostly) reserved for the continental United States. The ICAO codes for these airports are usually the FAA location identifier prefixed with a K. IATA codes are listed where applicable. Cities shown are those associated with the airport as per the FAA, this may not always be the exact location as airports are often located in smaller towns outside the cities they serve.
 

Woody

Member
At 11:43 you are "under" it, but the end is still near the horizon. At 11:55 you are no longer under it, but you seem to be moving towards it. So what's going on there?
No, going with it, its not still, and neither am I, but I am traveling slightly faster than it. Like a train moving in an easterly course where they cross a path and travel at just a few degrees difference, it moved straight, my car adjusted to the road.
 

Woody

Member
Gotta run, 2 1/2 hour trail is not normal, and when you can do this daily? Anyways, if it cools us and we are warming and it doesn't have the side effects of smog and is environmentally suitable, we have to believe this because everyone has to breathe it and live it, then it should be no problem.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
No, going with it, its not still, and neither am I, but I am traveling slightly faster than it. Like a train moving in an easterly course where they cross a path and travel at just a few degrees difference, it moved straight, my car adjusted to the road.

I see, you passed under it, drove away from it, then the road turned a bit to the left.

All a bit irrelevant to the key point, which is where the plane was when the trail formed at 10:05. What's your location at 11:43? (12 min before the rest area). You'd need to know the wind speed and direction at 35,000 feet though.
 

justanairlinepilot

Senior Member.
Gotta run, 2 1/2 hour trail is not normal, and when you can do this daily? Anyways, if it cools us and we are warming and it doesn't have the side effects of smog and is environmentally suitable, we have to believe this because everyone has to breathe it and live it, then it should be no problem.

Yes it is. How are you going to argue with me? Can you be scientific and factual?
 

cosmic

Senior Member.
Absolutely. My Facebook friend who lives miles away from me and I had a laugh when we both posted the sunset that evening, and the photos had the identical trails. I have no doubt they are the same. And I was struck by how the trail looked as far away in his photo as mine.

That's very cool. Thanks for sharing.
 

Ross Marsden

Senior Member.
Here are Woody's 3 photos scaled down and in the order taken.

WoodysPhotosOfATrail.JPG
The times they were taken are (from Woody's posts) 11:43, 11:55 and 12:04.
You can clearly identify the clouds near the trail from one photo to the next. Those clouds have no trouble lasting the 20-odd minutes along with the trail. They are of the same material, so no wonder really. These same clouds have probably accompanied the trail from when it was formed 2 hours earlier.
 

solrey

Senior Member.
You will NEVER get me to agree from a picture if a trail is a con-trail or one of these advanced Con-trails, show me one that remains airborne for 2 1/2 hours from a known commercial liner. I can show you them here daily, but we have to drive to find them and follow them. It just so happens that EVERY morning I follow the Jet Streams into the cities and as rush hour has increased, my time to watch them have too. After traveling around the nation I know they are doing it everywhere, but nothing like up here. Along the West Coast where Mick is it is easy to remain out of sight and go out to sea as the Jet Streams will bring them inland, so the West Coast is not a good place to pick them up from the ground. Continental climate conditions are flooded with them, and they also are international as I saw one fly over the US Canadian Border. I have mentioned before that this form of weather modification is taking place in Iraq and Israel, but not in Jordan, NONE of these flights are spotted there. In the Wikileaks documents supplied somewhere in here, the US Government indicates Jordan refuses to come on board with this. Hmmm, now how did I know this before that document if it wasn't for careful visual observation of the 2 types.

"It just so happens that EVERY morning I follow the Jet Streams into the cities..."

No, you do not. Nowhere on the continent do winds always blow in the same direction. The main jet stream meanders ya know. Right now there just so happens to be counter clockwise circulation around a surface low over Lake Superior and an upper level low over northern IL. Thus the winds over MN are coming from the north, from the surface all the way up to around 50,000 feet.

The most recent radiosonde data as of this writing:



Upper air data from 12 hours prior to the above data.





Woody, your powers of observation aren't half of what you think they are and I really have a hard time believing you. I think you're fooling no one but yourself.
 
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cloudspotter

Senior Member.
I have done my homework, why can't you locate one of these long persisting trails that stay in the sky for hours coming from a commercial airliner? Maybe because you either can't or won't?

You should contact peekay22 on YouTube Woody, he's figured out how to work the flight tracking software
 

JRBids

Senior Member.
"Here in San Diego, we rarely can see San Clemente Island, about 125 km offshore. The top of the island should just be visible above our horizon with normal refraction, but it's concealed by “airlight” during the day. Even in the clear air of a “Santa Ana,” which causes looming and raises more of the island above the apparent horizon, it's often hard to make out."

When I'm driving to the beach I can see Connecticut but when I am ON the beach I can only see a sliver or it. That has nothing to do with anything, though, because contrails are not on he horizon, are they?

When you pass under a cloud and watch it as you drive, it is far easier to judge its distance than an arm chair quarterback punching keys on a keyboard that is just looking for a debate.

I showed you two photos that are obviously the same contrails, from at least 100 miles apart. You put your fingers in your ears and denied it. And you call people names? Ha.

Gotta run, 2 1/2 hour trail is not normal,

Why not, because you said so? Come on, now, you've just handwaved everything said here.
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
Here are Woody's 3 photos scaled down and in the order taken.

WoodysPhotosOfATrail.JPG
The times they were taken are (from Woody's posts) 11:43, 11:55 and 12:04.
You can clearly identify the clouds near the trail from one photo to the next. Those clouds have no trouble lasting the 20-odd minutes along with the trail. They are of the same material, so no wonder really. These same clouds have probably accompanied the trail from when it was formed 2 hours earlier.
Woody, Ross has made a very important observation that demonstrates keen application of logic. It's pretty plain to see that you didn't photograph this plane passing over, and didn't document your claim that it didn't appear on Flightaware. What is also clear is that if the ordinary clouds made of water accompanying the contrail can persist along with it, you can't conclude that the contrail is any different. Like I asked you a long time ago, you need to document your case far better before you can make conclusions that what you see is anything out of the ordinary. Try again and pay attention to detail, documenting the whole event including the Flightaware screen shots as the plane passes over, time, lat/long, cardinal direction of the shot(use a compass away from metal) and let us see the whole thing. You can even order the FAA flight data for the event which would prove your case of unidentifiablility if true. Until you do all of this, you are wasting time.
 
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