Jay Reynolds
Senior Member.
Good point I haven't thought about!
Woody's observations of contrails in MN
- Thread starter Woody
- Start date
Woody
Member
JB, no
Woody
Member
History indicates 1970 as the institution of the EPA, 1972 switch to Unleaded, Leaded fuel pulled from the market 1982 and leaded premium was priced out of the market for the hot rodders. World began to warm up during this time from its cold dimming effect. 1996 was the year that both my research and science agree upon, the year it began to warm. Science and my research both confirmed an estimated 25 year delay before changes in heating/cooling occurred. The other era was WWI to the Great Dust Bowl, just over 20 years. This is in conjunction with understanding Global Dimming and the cooling effect it had. If you are less than 40 then you have really no knowledge of this era. To give you an idea, everyone here remembers the year that we were below zero for the entire month of January and NEVER went above zero, then on the 31st it went above zero and we were all disappointed, it had been so long...why not one more day? Don't recall the year, but I believe it was the early 70's.
Woody
Member
You will NEVER get me to agree from a picture if a trail is a con-trail or one of these advanced Con-trails, show me one that remains airborne for 2 1/2 hours from a known commercial liner. I can show you them here daily, but we have to drive to find them and follow them. It just so happens that EVERY morning I follow the Jet Streams into the cities and as rush hour has increased, my time to watch them have too. After traveling around the nation I know they are doing it everywhere, but nothing like up here. Along the West Coast where Mick is it is easy to remain out of sight and go out to sea as the Jet Streams will bring them inland, so the West Coast is not a good place to pick them up from the ground. Continental climate conditions are flooded with them, and they also are international as I saw one fly over the US Canadian Border. I have mentioned before that this form of weather modification is taking place in Iraq and Israel, but not in Jordan, NONE of these flights are spotted there. In the Wikileaks documents supplied somewhere in here, the US Government indicates Jordan refuses to come on board with this. Hmmm, now how did I know this before that document if it wasn't for careful visual observation of the 2 types.
scombrid
Senior Member.
JRBids was likely responding to the following comment with those photos:
His picture demonstrates that the trails are visible from quite a long distance and that is in air that wasn't even particularly clear.
Here in Florida I can see the tops of thunderheads down in Okeechobee from Volusia county. That's over 100 miles. Almost every morning in the summer when it is clear over land and there is nocturnal convection over warm Gulf and Atlantic waters you can observe the tops of the thunderheads in the Gulf at daybreak from the east coast. I can see flights on the Miami to Houston route leaving trails over the Gulf of Mexico from Satellite Beach. I have been working on the St. Johns River all day and watched them drift and spread starting as a thin line on the western horizon and being diffuse cirrus cloud, mare's tails, herringbone, etc... by the time they pass overhead on the east coast of FL hours later.
Woody
Member
justin, I will, and thanks, is this the airport tower or another? Clouding the air with some form of vapor was the only option I found in deterring warming. The other day I was thinking to myself, I change brakes and clutches, spray paint and expose myself to fumes that require respirators including asbestos, so what is the big deal if they are? My research indicates a high quantity of Magnesium which is used in respirators that my kids use. Yes, it may alter the soil PH's, but I am sure the Government has this covered by increasing calcium in the fertilizers. I do know it is not typical to see a con-trail maintain for over 2 1/2 hours at different locations around the area every day, and anyone saying this is normal is not even capable of being truthful with themselves. One cannot identify these specific trails by watching the planes trails, through pictures or even video, only through observation over time, and this also requires being mobile.
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JRBids
Senior Member
Just to show Woody that the contrails he saw probably weren't as close as he thought, the two photos above were taken from these locations, one shooting west overat the same time:
Absolutely. My Facebook friend who lives miles away from me and I had a laugh when we both posted the sunset that evening, and the photos had the identical trails. I have no doubt they are the same. And I was struck by how the trail looked as far away in his photo as mine.
Absolutely. My Facebook friend who lives miles away from me and I had a laugh when we both posted the sunset that evening, and the photos had the identical trails. I have no doubt they are the same. And I was struck by how the trail looked as far away in his photo as mine.
Woody
Member
Florida is not Minnesota
JRBids
Senior Member
I'm on Long Island. It's the same trail.
Woody
Member
Ok, so people can stop making false claims of my ability to judge distance and your inabilities to judge it from Photos, here I passed under it at 11:43, still look like 100 miles away? Look at the haze in the Horizon, this is 30 to 40 miles a day and is typical here, lots of swamps and water and no oceans jets streams, continental climate.
Pete Tar
Senior Member
Then there is no point in discussing anything further.
Woody
Member
When you pass under a cloud and watch it as you drive, it is far easier to judge its distance than an arm chair quarterback punching keys on a keyboard that is just looking for a debate. Minnesota gets to -25, Cali and Florida do not. Florida and Minnesota have vast swamps, but different species within them and ours freeze solid yearly. We have temperate, hardwood forest with prairie land. We have over 12,000 lakes, 50,000 swamps and 3 fish too. We are not impacted by any oceans or seas, meaning continental climate, Cali and Florida is directly affected by them. You are trying to tell me I can see a storm in St. Cloud from further than my dads home in Bloomington, 72 miles away, well, your crazy, not here. No matter what, and I have tried, it has never been possible to see the sky scrapers in Minneapolis from here in St. Cloud, even from my roof. To much stagnant water vaporizing during the summer, and too many car and power plant plumes filling the skies with vapor in the winter to see this far. If it could be seen, winter would be the best time. The furthest on record is over 700 km on an ideal day in Antarctica, so as I said before, you can see that far, even further, but circumstances very greatly depending upon your location on the planet. http://mintaka.sdsu.edu/GF/explain/atmos_refr/horizon.html I have read it, I understand it
Woody
Member
"Here in San Diego, we rarely can see San Clemente Island, about 125 km offshore. The top of the island should just be visible above our horizon with normal refraction, but it's concealed by "airlight" during the day. Even in the clear air of a "Santa Ana," which causes looming and raises more of the island above the apparent horizon, it's often hard to make out."
But it's not seven miles high, is it? It's 1,800 feet high, about 1/20th the height of a contrail.
Both your contrails above end just a few degrees above the horizon. That puts that end of them many tens of miles away, possibly 100 miles.
Woody
Member
Horizon Mick, Horizon
justanairlinepilot
Active Member
Woody are you really reading what I posted? My post says "the tower". Its the Minneapolis international airport tower. Just call them, they are public servants so they will listen to your concerns, I've talked with them personally many times and they are very professional and "Minnesota nice". I'm just warning you tho, if you talk to them like you are here you may not get very far as they may view you as delusional and a threat to ATC security.
Woody
Member
When you put KMSP, I was thinking TV station, I assumed you were talking about the airport, that's why I questioned it
Woody
Member
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justanairlinepilot
Active Member
OK, good luck and I hope you talk with them about your concerns.
Woody
Member
The trails was above I 94 and headed East, I passed under it and ran parrallel with it to the cities, I was traveling slightly more south, we were both heading East. The Horizon ahead is about 30 miles, a great deal of clouds and haze this day, it all becomes a distant haze.
Woody
Member
OK, what does KMSP stand for, at least the K? Assuming MSP is Minneapolis/ St. Paul
Cairenn
Senior Member
Woody, I live in Dallas, no ocean nearby and I regularly see clouds that are along the Red River, the Red River is around a 100 miles away. I will also see them when they are the other side of Ft Worth.
I have done a lot of camping out and one learns to judge the distance to an approaching storm, so you can be ready for it.
I have done a lot of camping out and one learns to judge the distance to an approaching storm, so you can be ready for it.
justanairlinepilot
Active Member
Wiki quote
The prefix K is (mostly) reserved for the continental United States. The ICAO codes for these airports are usually the FAA location identifier prefixed with a K. IATA codes are listed where applicable. Cities shown are those associated with the airport as per the FAA, this may not always be the exact location as airports are often located in smaller towns outside the cities they serve.
The prefix K is (mostly) reserved for the continental United States. The ICAO codes for these airports are usually the FAA location identifier prefixed with a K. IATA codes are listed where applicable. Cities shown are those associated with the airport as per the FAA, this may not always be the exact location as airports are often located in smaller towns outside the cities they serve.
Woody
Member
No, going with it, its not still, and neither am I, but I am traveling slightly faster than it. Like a train moving in an easterly course where they cross a path and travel at just a few degrees difference, it moved straight, my car adjusted to the road.
K is just the ICAO code for the contiguous US. It does not stand for anything.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICAO_airport_code
Trigger Hippie
Senior Member
The ICAO airport code for Minneapolis−Saint Paul International Airport
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KMSP
Woody
Member
Gotta run, 2 1/2 hour trail is not normal, and when you can do this daily? Anyways, if it cools us and we are warming and it doesn't have the side effects of smog and is environmentally suitable, we have to believe this because everyone has to breathe it and live it, then it should be no problem.
I see, you passed under it, drove away from it, then the road turned a bit to the left.
All a bit irrelevant to the key point, which is where the plane was when the trail formed at 10:05. What's your location at 11:43? (12 min before the rest area). You'd need to know the wind speed and direction at 35,000 feet though.
I saw several today. At least an hour each, maybe two, until they were blown out of sight.
justanairlinepilot
Active Member
Yes it is. How are you going to argue with me? Can you be scientific and factual?
cosmic
Senior Member
That's very cool. Thanks for sharing.
Ross Marsden
Senior Member.
Here are Woody's 3 photos scaled down and in the order taken.
The times they were taken are (from Woody's posts) 11:43, 11:55 and 12:04.
You can clearly identify the clouds near the trail from one photo to the next. Those clouds have no trouble lasting the 20-odd minutes along with the trail. They are of the same material, so no wonder really. These same clouds have probably accompanied the trail from when it was formed 2 hours earlier.
The times they were taken are (from Woody's posts) 11:43, 11:55 and 12:04.
You can clearly identify the clouds near the trail from one photo to the next. Those clouds have no trouble lasting the 20-odd minutes along with the trail. They are of the same material, so no wonder really. These same clouds have probably accompanied the trail from when it was formed 2 hours earlier.
solrey
Senior Member
"It just so happens that EVERY morning I follow the Jet Streams into the cities..."
No, you do not. Nowhere on the continent do winds always blow in the same direction. The main jet stream meanders ya know. Right now there just so happens to be counter clockwise circulation around a surface low over Lake Superior and an upper level low over northern IL. Thus the winds over MN are coming from the north, from the surface all the way up to around 50,000 feet.
The most recent radiosonde data as of this writing:
Upper air data from 12 hours prior to the above data.
Woody, your powers of observation aren't half of what you think they are and I really have a hard time believing you. I think you're fooling no one but yourself.
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cloudspotter
Senior Member.
You should contact peekay22 on YouTube Woody, he's figured out how to work the flight tracking software
JRBids
Senior Member
When I'm driving to the beach I can see Connecticut but when I am ON the beach I can only see a sliver or it. That has nothing to do with anything, though, because contrails are not on he horizon, are they?
I showed you two photos that are obviously the same contrails, from at least 100 miles apart. You put your fingers in your ears and denied it. And you call people names? Ha.
Why not, because you said so? Come on, now, you've just handwaved everything said here.
Jay Reynolds
Senior Member.
Woody, Ross has made a very important observation that demonstrates keen application of logic. It's pretty plain to see that you didn't photograph this plane passing over, and didn't document your claim that it didn't appear on Flightaware. What is also clear is that if the ordinary clouds made of water accompanying the contrail can persist along with it, you can't conclude that the contrail is any different. Like I asked you a long time ago, you need to document your case far better before you can make conclusions that what you see is anything out of the ordinary. Try again and pay attention to detail, documenting the whole event including the Flightaware screen shots as the plane passes over, time, lat/long, cardinal direction of the shot(use a compass away from metal) and let us see the whole thing. You can even order the FAA flight data for the event which would prove your case of unidentifiablility if true. Until you do all of this, you are wasting time.
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