Woody's observations of contrails in MN

Woody

Member
The other day I watched a plane leave a trail at 10:05 in the morning in Sartell, MN. I left the job site at 10:30 and watched it grow. On the way there were other planes with both kinds of trails, some that maintained and others that dissipated. Even while I was driving along I would watch other planes go through this cloud and their trails would dissipate, but this one would not. I would upload a pic but that option doesn't appear available any longer. I followed this all the way to North Minneapolis where we had to stop and go to work, total air time for this cloud formed from this plane was from 10:05 am till 12:37 and still going strong. Then I thought, I take brakes apart, paint without respirators, rip apart ceilings and expose myself to some ungodly fumes that I shouldn't, so whats the beef? I am sure they are trying to do something if this original post is correct and global dimming cooled us, then they would only think in this way, dim the planet again but with a healthier substance than smog.
 

scombrid

Senior Member.
Even while I was driving along I would watch other planes go through this cloud and their trails would dissipate, but this one would not.

More than likely flew over it and not through it. You've got special eyes if you can discern the position of planes relative to that cloud with any precision when both are over 6 miles away from you.

I drove from down to Okeechobee and back yesterday. There was a single trail that was visible for the entire drive. It sheered into mare's tails after about 3 hours. Had sheets of cirrus and contrails to the west with sun dogs. Looks like normal sky given the synoptic weather pattern, especially the deep convection over the gulf.

I'm not sure when "the other day" is in your post but given the weather system out your way now I would have expected cirrus and persistent contrails in advance.
 

Woody

Member
More than likely flew over it and not through it. You've got special eyes if you can discern the position of planes relative to that cloud with any precision when both are over 6 miles away from you.

I drove from down to Okeechobee and back yesterday. There was a single trail that was visible for the entire drive. It sheered into mare's tails after about 3 hours. Had sheets of cirrus and contrails to the west with sun dogs. Looks like normal sky given the synoptic weather pattern, especially the deep convection over the gulf.

I'm not sure when "the other day" is in your post but given the weather system out your way now I would have expected cirrus and persistent contrails in advance.
I don't believe it, since 100% of these planes are not registered. Contrails are sustained and long, but 2 1/2 hours, lets get real here, this is unprecedented and daily? If you have trails, they will all be similar in length and duration, especially as they ascend and descend through the atmosphere near an airport. If there is a section of the sky that can persist a trail for 2 1/2 hours, then all trails in this altitude and area will demonstrate similar trails, but they don't. All commercial airlines were demonstrating long persistent tails as you say, but ALL dissipated meaning they disappeared after several minutes, except the non commercial flights. The one you saw, if you would have had flightware, would have indicated this as a non-commercial flight, as 100% are found so far. They are across the nation but in higher numbers in the north. They say (US Government) they are making headway, but no one says what they are doing? Global dimming is what they are attempting to accomplish, after all, it cooled us before so it should work again. Thermodynamics indicates that in order to cool the surface, one just needs to increase the resistance to incoming solar radiation, this in turn will lower the grounds thermal radiation, thus lowering the temperature over time. It conforms to the standards of the heating and AC industry that have used thermodynamics equations since it was researched in the 1800's and is the equations and is still used in determining size and volume of a buildings needs in determining heat storage and heat loss. My logic is understanding human behavior, if it worked before, they will try it again. If they do spray, they will make it non toxic because the people in charge also understand that their family, friends and loved one will all need to breathe and consume this product. My only concern is, they don't really know what is happening. Reminds me of the old fable of the king and the mouse.
 

scombrid

Senior Member.
but 2 1/2 hours, lets get real here, [/q]

That is real. I've watched contrails drift from the Gulf of Mexico on across Florida and out to sea over the Atlantic. Many many times.

If you have trails, they will all be similar in length and duration, especially as they ascend and descend through the atmosphere near an airport.

None of the trails are near the airport where the plane originated. Flights northbound out of Orlando don't start making trails until they are up between Palatka and Jacksonville, often near Harold Saive's location in Gainesville. There are plenty days when northbound traffic is leaving trails and southbound is not because there is a vertical separation between them.

Length of the trails varies greatly depending on whether the trails are at cruising altitude and based on the fact that the trail layer is usually pretty shallow and planes will be cruising anywhere between 32,000 and 40,000 feet (that's generally the cruise altitude range I see when travelling, have been higher and lower but I'd say that covers 90% of the flights I've ridden on).

, then all trails in this altitude and area will demonstrate similar trails,

All the planes you watched like weren't at the same altitude.

The one you saw, if you would have had flightware, would have indicated this as a non-commercial flight, as 100% are found so far.

Has not been my finding. You must be doing something wrong.

Thermodynamics indicates that in order to cool the surface, one just needs to increase the resistance to incoming solar radiation,

White clouds at the tropopause is not a good way to accomplish that. It has a tendency to do a better job at trapping long wave radiation from getting out than it does keeping shortwave radiation from coming in.
 
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Woody

Member
You have refused to ever show evidence for this.


Cirrus persists, so ice crystals in contrails can persist.


False, the sky is not a monolithic beast all of the same temp and humidity.


You have refused to ever show evidence for this. The claim is baseless.


The US Government has said no such thing.


There is no evidence for Global Dimming happening concurrently with the advent and progress of the chemtrails hoax.
mauna loa3.jpg



Reminds me of the old fable "The Owl and the Pussycat". Nonsense. You show no understanding of thermodynamics.
Something to consider, the dates. According to data we have to find current research at least through last year. Full deployment appears to have occured around 2009/2010 era, this only gives to 2010. This all takes time and we would not expect to see any changes in these graphs, but I am interested in current data if there is any available.
 

Woody

Member
upload_2013-10-5_10-13-1.jpeg There we go, cntl - v command to override is needed, pass it on in the tips section. Now, check out this cloud
 

Woody

Member
This was a trail left in Sartell, MN at 10:04am, this picture was snapped at 12:04 am just north of Minneapolis. Stationary observance is not possible and you must be mobile in the direction of the upper stream flow. last picture was snapped at 12:37 and still going. Flightware indicates that 2/3 of the commercial flights show up on their screen while 1/3 remain unidentified. On this day multiple contrails were noted staying in the air for several minutes before they dissipated, most identified through flighware. Of these trails there were 5 documented, this being one, that never dissipated and developed into cirrus clouds were unidentified. These trails are daily, and this is not normal. To create clouds requires water vapor in the air. By increasing particulates in the air clouds can be created. Raining cement in Russia, looking for the old original video. My point is, if they are making clouds, whats the deal if it cools us?
 

Woody

Member
I've lived in Florida since 2004. I work an outdoor job and I paddle my kayak or surfski on the river or ocean nearly every day or about 6000km per year. I'm outside a lot and pay close attention to the weather for safety reasons and as a hobby. I have not seen a change in the sky.

I grew up in Virginia. Skies there now do not look different from when I was a living up there.

I think it is on you to find data that supports your claim.
I have done my homework, why can't you locate one of these long persisting trails that stay in the sky for hours coming from a commercial airliner? Maybe because you either can't or won't?
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
This was a trail left in Sartell, MN at 10:04am, this picture was snapped at 12:04 am just north of Minneapolis. Stationary observance is not possible and you must be mobile in the direction of the upper stream flow. last picture was snapped at 12:37 and still going. Flightware indicates that 2/3 of the commercial flights show up on their screen while 1/3 remain unidentified. On this day multiple contrails were noted staying in the air for several minutes before they dissipated, most identified through flighware. Of these trails there were 5 documented, this being one, that never dissipated and developed into cirrus clouds were unidentified. These trails are daily, and this is not normal. To create clouds requires water vapor in the air. By increasing particulates in the air clouds can be created. Raining cement in Russia, looking for the old original video. My point is, if they are making clouds, whats the deal if it cools us?
You haven't shown much to go on. For example:
Date
Time stamped photo of original flight. passing over showing cardinal directions.
Screen shot of flightaware at the time.
Time stamped progression of trail over time and lat/long of where you took the image.


Woody said:
Flightware indicates that 2/3 of the commercial flights show up on their screen while 1/3 remain unidentified.

How is Flightaware showing you unidentified planes?

Woody said:
Of these trails there were 5 documented, this being one, that never dissipated and developed into cirrus clouds were unidentified.
You can claim they were documented, but you haven't presented any documentation yet for those claims. A picture of a persistent contrail is not sufficient to document the event especially if you say it was unidentifable. If it was unidentifiable, you must document the event in sufficient terms for the event to be confirmable.

Woody you claim to be involved in the security industry gathering evidence for court cases. So far, everything you have put out would be found totally inadmissible and inadequate.
Do your employers have to instruct you step by step and word for word how to do your job? Please pardon me but you have put out so far looks like the work of a blundering fool.
 

Woody

Member
I've lived in Florida since 2004. I work an outdoor job and I paddle my kayak or surfski on the river or ocean nearly every day or about 6000km per year. I'm outside a lot and pay close attention to the weather for safety reasons and as a hobby. I have not seen a change in the sky.

I grew up in Virginia. Skies there now do not look different from when I was a living up there.

I think it is on you to find data that supports your claim.
I think you need to discuss this with people who lived through the era and recall the 60's and 70's, it will enlighten you one the differences in the sky today from then. The EPA did a wonderful job of clearing the skies. Diesel trucks would blow out large plumes of dense smoke, air pollution meant work and production. Research how bad it was, it will enlighten you to global dimming. Since 1892 through the 1970's Minneapolis would average 300 to 350 degrees of total below zero weather during an entire winter season. In 2002 there were only 2 days below zero and can't even get a total of -100 any longer. NOAA and the statistics demonstrate a rapid rise in heat since 1996, and its not stopping. We have to remember, everything works on cycles, some colder some warmer, so what I did was plot it according to the solar cycles and placed the running average on this graph to 5 years. upload_2013-10-5_14-7-45.jpeg At the current rate, Minneapolis will have a 50/50 chance of not ever seeing a below zero day throughout a winter season by 2015 depending upon seasonal alterations.
 

Woody

Member
Point is, the government says they are doing something in their visit to South Korea several months ago and that it is working, I have to ask, what is it Mr. Kerry? The government knows of this situation, and to think they are doing nothing is blind to the realities of this world. Engineering the weather has been around since the late 1940's, and in fact we expect our government to do something about it if it is to help crop production, decrease storm intensities and so on, so this is nothing new, question is, why so secret and why the problem? Lowering the solar radiance upon the surface will cause a decrease in thermal radiation, that's what happened during the pollution era. Then again, that was an accidental byproduct.
 

Woody

Member
You haven't shown much to go on. For example:
Date
Time stamped photo of original flight. passing over showing cardinal directions.
Screen shot of flightaware at the time.
Time stamped progression of trail over time and lat/long of where you took the image.




How is Flightaware showing you unidentified planes?


You can claim they were documented, but you haven't presented any documentation yet for those claims. A picture of a persistent contrail is not sufficient to document the event especially if you say it was unidentifable. If it was unidentifiable, you must document the event in sufficient terms for the event to be confirmable.

Woody you claim to be involved in the security industry gathering evidence for court cases. So far, everything you have put out would be found totally inadmissible and inadequate.
Do your employers have to instruct you step by step and word for word how to do your job? Please pardon me but you have put out so far looks like the work of a blundering fool.
Look, its actually very simple, download flightware and go the airport and understand how it works, the delay involved. Then begin tracking the planes as they come in, flightware identifies a mass nuber of these flights, but many just show up and are not on flightware. We personally say a delta flight and fed ex plane with no identification of flighware the other day, but taking a running average you will find that so far about 70% show up. Using a 70% variable then some of these persistent trails would have to come from some flights, but none do.
 

Woody

Member
You haven't shown much to go on. For example:
Date
Time stamped photo of original flight. passing over showing cardinal directions.
Screen shot of flightaware at the time.
Time stamped progression of trail over time and lat/long of where you took the image.




How is Flightaware showing you unidentified planes?


You can claim they were documented, but you haven't presented any documentation yet for those claims. A picture of a persistent contrail is not sufficient to document the event especially if you say it was unidentifable. If it was unidentifiable, you must document the event in sufficient terms for the event to be confirmable.

Woody you claim to be involved in the security industry gathering evidence for court cases. So far, everything you have put out would be found totally inadmissible and inadequate.
Do your employers have to instruct you step by step and word for word how to do your job? Please pardon me but you have put out so far looks like the work of a blundering fool.
We are all born ignorant, as we age it becomes a choice. I have researched this, you choose to not even look thus choosing to remain ignorant. If what I say is true, it would be so easy to find on your own, thus this is making you the fool as one synonym for a fool is "Ignoramus"
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Woody, you can't claim to have demonstrated anything at all at this point. You've made the same claims you made months ago, and still don't seem to get what is needed to demonstrate them.

Post a screenshot of flightaware and indicate on it where you think the plane in your photo must have been when it laid the trail, and where the trail is in the photo.
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Jay and Woody it is time to cool your exchange of words . . . please keep to the facts and leave off the personal references . . .
 

Woody

Member
Woody, you can't claim to have demonstrated anything at all at this point. You've made the same claims you made months ago, and still don't seem to get what is needed to demonstrate them.

Post a screenshot of flightaware and indicate on it where you think the plane in your photo must have been when it laid the trail, and where the trail is in the photo.
Mick, I understand, but sometimes we have to take initiative and research it ourselves, as you told me I should with flightware, so I did. I came back with the results and no one believes it. You showed me flightware and it was eye opening. I have much on my plate to try to convince anyone what they can do for themselves, my kids are out of the house and I quit doing that years ago. Either prove me wrong or understand these findings to be true. 100% of these persisting trails come from unregistered flights. The trail must exist for at least as long as these, 2 hours. This thread, on global dimming, is the source of understanding. Seriously Mick, do you really believe it is normal to demonstrate constant trails daily such as this one for multiple hours as something that is normal?
 

Woody

Member
Jay and Woody it is time to cool your exchange of words . . . please keep to the facts and leave off the personal references . . .
Sorry, he was getting under my skin . . . I apologize
 
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Woody

Member
If you do not believe we are warming, then check out various cities across the Midwest and calculate their average low temperatures in July. From a thermodynamic perspective, this is more important than the high temperatures which are transient during the day. The low temperature gives us an indication as to how much heat has been stored and carried forward to the next day. If the temperatures are higher at sunrise than normal, then the high temperatures of the day will also be higher due to the higher starting point. Minneapolis and Ft Collins, that is a mile high, are both experiencing a rise in temperatures of over 8 degrees when compared to the 1890's average. Starting a morning out at 68 degrees and sunny will result in a warmer temperature during the day than being 60 degrees in the morning on a sunny day. These are facts and you are all welcome to research this. In your research, that took me several months to assemble, demonstrated that 1960 was the coldest on record, the height of global dimming.
 

Woody

Member
One of the major catalysts for cleaning the skies and removing this "Global Dimming" occurred due to the alterations from leaded to unleaded fuel, then further implementations later followed by diesel and industrial alterations. Although moving from coal to natural gas became a much cleaner agent, after WWII this was replaced with severe levels of exhaust emissions. According to science, and my research concurred, it takes between 20 to 30 years for changes to take place, it takes time...as time is one of the variables of thermodynamic equations.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Mick, I understand, but sometimes we have to take initiative and research it ourselves, as you told me I should with flightware, so I did. I came back with the results and no one believes it. You showed me flightware and it was eye opening. I have much on my plate to try to convince anyone what they can do for themselves, my kids are out of the house and I quit doing that years ago. Either prove me wrong or understand these findings to be true. 100% of these persisting trails come from unregistered flights. The trail must exist for at least as long as these, 2 hours. This thread, on global dimming, is the source of understanding. Seriously Mick, do you really believe it is normal to demonstrate constant trails daily such as this one for multiple hours as something that is normal?

What have you demonstrated? You've shown one photo of what looks like a normal contrail.

It's actually quite rare to see a contrail persist for "hours" in Los Angeles, as the prevailing winds quickly blow them out of the way. So I'd be very interested in a demonstration of such a thing. You said:

What do you mean by "in Sartell". Sartell is only a few miles wide, and the trail looks like it was about 100 miles away. So where was the trail, and how did you determine there were no planes there?
 

Woody

Member
What have you demonstrated? You've shown one photo of what looks like a normal contrail.

It's actually quite rare to see a contrail persist for "hours" in Los Angeles, as the prevailing winds quickly blow them out of the way. So I'd be very interested in a demonstration of such a thing. You said:

What do you mean by "in Sartell". Sartell is only a few miles wide, and the trail looks like it was about 100 miles away. So where was the trail, and how did you determine there were no planes there?
Sartell is a suburb of St. Cloud, MN, Minneapolis is 70 miles away. I guess people for some reason think these trails are normal on a daily basis, problem is, not many people take notice or even care and are quick to debunk something they have not research to the degrees I have. As I said Mick, every day! No, its not normal.
 

Ross Marsden

Senior Member.
upload_2013-10-5_10-13-1.jpeg There we go, cntl - v command to override is needed, pass it on in the tips section. Now, check out this cloud

Has someone already said this? That trail is quite old (in the scale of the age of recognisable trails), and has probably moved many miles down wind of it's original location. It would be pretty difficult to pin this trail to a flight in the FlightAware data if you did not have a good estimate of the wind information over that area.

It's unclear what the altitude is, or if it is an exhaust contrail. I have had an argument here in NZ (I think it is still simmering) about an aerodynamic contrail that looked like this one in Woody's photo. That turned out to be at about 24000 feet made by a USAF flight from Christchurch to McMurdo in Antarctia.
 

Woody

Member
The sky is limited to far less than 100 miles. I can see clouds develop over Monticello, and my co-worker can see clouds over my home, about 30 miles as the crow flies before everything becomes obscured into a haze. If this cloud was 70 miles away I would not be able to take a pic of it as I cannot see the skies over Minneapolis from St. Cloud, distance by highway, 72 miles.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
The sky is limited to far less than 100 miles. I can see clouds develop over Monticello, and my co-worker can see clouds over my home, about 30 miles as the crow flies before everything becomes obscured into a haze. If this cloud was 70 miles away I would not be able to take a pic of it as I cannot see the skies over Minneapolis from St. Cloud, distance by highway, 72 miles.

So where was the trail when it was being laid? Where were you? Where's the photo of the plane leaving the trails? How did you determine where the plane was?
 

Woody

Member
Sartell is a suburb of St. Cloud, MN, Minneapolis is 70 miles away. I guess people for some reason think these trails are normal on a daily basis, problem is, not many people take notice or even care and are quick to debunk something they have not research to the degrees I have. As I said Mick, every day! No, its not normal.
Mick, you know 100 miles away is impossible. I saw the plane, flightware did not, and every day for as long as you can follow then until they become a haze and blend with others. Understand what global dimming was and you can understand what they might be trying to do, after all, Kerry said we were having success in altering the climate, got any other ideas of what he and Obama have said and have talked about without giving details, or do you think they are lying?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Mick, you know 100 miles away is impossible. I saw the plane, flightware did not, and every day for as long as you can follow then until they become a haze and blend with others. Understand what global dimming was and you can understand what they might be trying to do, after all, Kerry said we were having success in altering the climate, got any other ideas of what he and Obama have said and have talked about without giving details, or do you think they are lying?

What's impossible about 100 miles? Please give the information requested about your photo, otherwise it's pointless, and will get deleted.
 

Woody

Member
And what date was this from?
The plane was south of Sartell about 20 miles and the trail headed southeast, normal for this time of the year. This photo was taken on 9/30/13 at 12:04 just north of Minneapolis traveling towards the city. I was talking to my worker at 10:05 when I saw it.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
The plane was south of Sartell about 20 miles and the trail headed southeast, normal for this time of the year. This photo was taken on 9/30/13 at 12:04 just north of Minneapolis traveling towards the city. I was talking to my worker at 10:05 when I saw it.

10:05 CDT, so 15:05 UTC?
 
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Woody

Member
What's impossible about 100 miles? Please give the information requested about your photo, otherwise it's pointless, and will get deleted.
Its impossible to see the skies from ground level with any clarity at a distance of 100 miles unless an object can be viewed, such as an island, mountain, or the lights of Vegas. With the sky there are many variables, a haze is naturally developed, just as we see depth in the mountains and there appears a haze in the ones behind it. We have tracked the distance a visible contrail can be viewed, on a very clear day the distance is about 30 miles. Many times there are storms in St. Cloud all day and clear in Minneapolis all day and you can't see a cloud in the sky even into the horizon, and we are talking only 72 miles by road, less as the crow flies. If the storms come over Monticello, if they are big enough, oyu can begin to view them depending upon your location in the cities. Southern Suburbs, no, Northwest Suburbs, yes, Minneapolis, barely. A big storm can be seen in St. Cloud from Monticello, not from Rogers. All these equal about 30 to 40 miles at the most, now a contrail is so much smaller that you would have to be closer to be visible. Been this way all my life. "Even under extremely clear conditions, it's unusual to see more than a couple of hundred kilometers.:" this would be 125 miles. If the pictured showed it to be 100 miles away, it would be on the very edge of the horizon, at the very limits of view, but as you can see, it was not a clear day.
http://mintaka.sdsu.edu/GF/explain/atmos_refr/horizon.html
my point is, you stating that the cloud appears 100 miles away is a gross miscalculation.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
A plane seven miles up in the sky is very different to seeing "an object" like a mountain.

By again, Where were you at 10:05? Where do you think the plane was?
 

Woody

Member
10:05 CDT, so 15:05 UTC?
Central time, this is cool, have to show me this... I can show you a lot with these shots. It is too hard to drive, get to work, document the flights and get video for you during the day, but this gives us another alternative
 
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Woody

Member
A plane seven miles up in the sky is very different to seeing "an object" like a mountain.

By again, Where were you at 10:05? Where do you think the plane was?
South of Sartell, I est near hwy 94 running parallel with it. There were a lot of contrails, and few of these others. The contrails dissipated, except for a few.
 

Woody

Member
I was at Hwy 15 and the Mississippi river in Sartell, MN viewing the southern skies at 10:05am central time observing the plane
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I was at Hwy 15 and the Mississippi river in Sartell, MN viewing the southern skies at 10:05am central time observing the plane

So you think the trail was over Hwy 94, just 7 miles to the south of you?

Where were you exactly? Outside? In parking lot? Looking out a window? In a truck?
 

JRBids

Senior Member.
Mick, you know 100 miles away is impossible. I saw the plane, flightware did not, and every day for as long as you can follow then until they become a haze and blend with others. Understand what global dimming was and you can understand what they might be trying to do, after all, Kerry said we were having success in altering the climate, got any other ideas of what he and Obama have said and have talked about without giving details, or do you think they are lying?


Would you agree the two photos below show the same contrails?

5_31_2013 037.jpg 1015173_10151622680786702_215419997_o.jpg
 

justanairlinepilot

Senior Member.
Here Woody. Instead of relying on Flight Aware...call these people instead. Maybe even visit them in person. Don't get too crazy on them tho, you may get arrested.

The ops manager at the KMSP tower is
Arnie Yeske
612-713-4036
The tower manager is Elaine Buckner
612-713-4000
and
Chuck Miller
612-713-4059.
 
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scombrid

Senior Member.
I think you need to discuss this with people who lived through the era and recall the 60's and 70's, it will enlighten you one the differences in the sky today from then.

You said that the roll-out of the dimming operation was 2009/2010. I simply gave reference to my personal continuous time series of observation that spans that date.

My discontinuous time series for the mid-Atlantic goes back a few decades and has the same result.

The EPA did a wonderful job of clearing the skies.

Yep. Much less particulate air pollution in the lower atmosphere. Makes it easier to see contrails.
 
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