Usage of the term "Conspiracy Theory"

Joe Newman

Active Member
Thats pure hyperbole. There are plenty of "corporations" who fall outside that characterization- ie; Patagonia- they may not rule the World but they also do not fit your categorization.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patagonia_(clothing)

Moreover, shareholders are not without opinions and their activism can effect change as well:

http://www.domini.com/shareholder-advocacy/index.htm

Corporations are reflections of society. The idea of Corporate Social Responsibility is gaining momentum and not simply a facade:

http://almostdailybrett.wordpress.c...nsibility-vs-corporate-social-responsibility/

http://www.sustainableindustries.com/

The exceptions don't discount the rule and I don't buy at all that corporations are a reflection of society. I'm all for a more human face, and whatever social responsibility that can come about, but it is in no way more than a blip in overall corporate culture.
The massive blind and bloated beast of consumerism was not a natural evolution of the species. It was a mutation engineered by the corporate elite to further their own ends at the expense and disregard of the general public.
 

SR1419

Senior Member.
The exceptions don't discount the rule and I don't buy at all that corporations are a reflection of society. I'm all for a more human face, and whatever social responsibility that can come about, but it is in no way more than a blip in overall corporate culture.
The massive blind and bloated beast of consumerism was not a natural evolution of the species. It was a mutation engineered by the corporate elite to further their own ends at the expense and disregard of the general public.

Corporations do reflect the society in which they operate. Just look at all the regulations- environmental, labor etc now as opposed to 100yrs ago- Those are a direct result of the society around them dictating the environment in which they operate...they do not operate in a vaccum.

"consumerism" is as old as the as the first person who had extra meat or wheat or fire to trade for a bauble from distant lands. Its "bloated" now because the system created a great deal of expendable income for the masses with which to consume. Individual humans have as much responsibility for its bloat as corporations. Just blaming corporations for all the evils in the World seems a cop out
 

Bill

Senior Member.
I base it on the ability of the elite to wall off themselves off from experience of the poor. In earlier times, even though there was great disparity, many of the ills of the peasants were also experienced by the elite as well. Now, you can find people in the same dire straights as the meanest medival mudhut in a turnip field, but the 1% today enjoy advantages that are stratospherically beyond the Sun King and any of his ilk.
So it's based on advances technology? The elite have always enjoyed the best food had access to the best educations and employed the best technology. If it's based on advances in technology does that put the modern elite miles ahead of people like Andrew Carnegie or Cornelius Vanderbilt? If it is based on the benefits of medicine, technology and education. Doesn't that make your average North American or European part of the elite? They are miles ahead of your average Yanomami or Kayan. There need to be some kind of metric involved.
 

Arlen Williams

New Member
Basically a tendency to ascribe a powerful conspiring force ("the elite") as the deliberate prime mover in most major world events, as opposed to the belief that most world events are complex and emergent, and often essentially random and unpredictable.

For example, a conspiracy theorist might think that the Russian Revolution of 1905 was deliberately engineered by a few bankers in New York, rather than the broader set of causes with long historical roots.
That is an unnecessary polemic. Objective pursuit of truth should allow for nuances and for truth to pop up at varying points in a spectrum. Beware the fallacy of mutual exclusion.
 

Arlen Williams

New Member
Or, Mick, do you have a bias for debunkery and disconnecting dots? If so, that is fine but perhaps that is best stated in a disclaimer. Thanks for the work you do on your site.
 

dunbar

Active Member
Just look at all the regulations- environmental, labor etc now as opposed to 100yrs ago- Those are a direct result of the society around them dictating the environment in which they operate...they do not operate in a vaccum.

Are you kidding me? I don't know what planet you live on but right now on Planet Earth there is more corporate exploitation of human beings and corporate degradation of the environment than at any point in human history.
 

dunbar

Active Member
But what do you think about the term "conspiracy theory"?

I think it's a loaded term that is sometimes appropriate and often abused; how you use the term and what ideas and people you apply the term to will generally tell more about you than it will about the people or ideas. So take care because it cuts both ways.

Embrace it, or choose a different phrase?

Neither, I try not to deliberately stereotype, pigeonhole, and stigmatize ...unless of course someone fits the bill to the T as the quintessential embodiment of a walking manifestation of some cliche or other and I just can't help myself:D


How do you differentiate your world view from the sheeple and the useful idiots like myself?

I find that those kind of distinctions are usually indicative of a rigid cult like mindset that ultimately categorizes individuals in either one of two groups - the initiated or the profane - it's blatant nonsense because the neither the world or people are quite that simple.
 

Joe Newman

Active Member
Corporations do reflect the society in which they operate. Just look at all the regulations- environmental, labor etc now as opposed to 100yrs ago- Those are a direct result of the society around them dictating the environment in which they operate...they do not operate in a vaccum.

This doesn't follow. Those regulations were put into effect to temper corporations who fought them every step of the way.

"consumerism" is as old as the as the first person who had extra meat or wheat or fire to trade for a bauble from distant lands.

You are mistaking consuming with consumerism. They are not the same thing.

Its "bloated" now because the system created a great deal of expendable income for the masses with which to consume. Individual humans have as much responsibility for its bloat as corporations. Just blaming corporations for all the evils in the World seems a cop out.

No. A thousand times no. I am a huge fan of personal responsibility and I have fought this consumerism virus all my life on a personal level. But as sickened as I am by the bloated carcasses of the fat and unhappy souls slouching towards idiocracy, I understand the the poor fucks were gamed, manipulated, and literally trained to be such mindless consumerbots.

If you do a poll of the most evil man of the 20th century, of course the usual suspects will dominate, but my vote goes to a guy most folks have never even heard of, the father of public relations, Eddie Bernays.

Anyone truly interested in why cters think the world is being manipulated by a conscienceless elite would do well to watch this doc in full. (This is the full four parts, but its out there in individual bits too.) Yeah, it's long, but it is well done, it isn't at all the usual nwo type fare, and it is well worth the time spent if you want some insight into why the modern world is as fucked up as it is and why it didn't just emerge.

It was planned, it was not a secret, and it worked like a dream. Or a nightmare, depending on your pov. Unless you factor this part of the equation into the mix, you cannot intelligibly argue against the idea of elites seeking to control the masses.

 

Joe Newman

Active Member
So it's based on advances technology? The elite have always enjoyed the best food had access to the best educations and employed the best technology. If it's based on advances in technology does that put the modern elite miles ahead of people like Andrew Carnegie or Cornelius Vanderbilt? If it is based on the benefits of medicine, technology and education. Doesn't that make your average North American or European part of the elite? They are miles ahead of your average Yanomami or Kayan. There need to be some kind of metric involved.

Fine. Come up with that metric and get back to us and we'll take it for a spin.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
I don't agree with you.

Take farming for instance. Modern farming in the first world is no where as hard on the environment as 'traditional' agriculture is. In the 30s, we had a Dust Bowl, today we have a major drought in the same area and no Dust Bowl.

Where are the smoke filled skies of the coal fired plants of the late 1800s?

The worst abusers of the environment is state owned industries. When Pemex's Ixtoc well blew out in 1979, the beaches from the Yucatan to just south of Corpus Christi were slathered in heavy weathered oil. The Kemp's Ridley Sea Turtle was almost killed off. The fishing and tourism industry was devastated (It took most of year to kill the well). Pemex paid NOTHING on either side of the border for the environmental destruction and clean up and for the loss of incomes. When BP's well blew out they spent millions on clean up, remeditation and pay outs.
 

Alhazred The Sane

Senior Member.

Curtis has made some thoroughly thought-provoking documentaries, but this is probably his second best (I think 'The Power of Nightmares' was marginally better, and 'All Watched Over By Machines of Loving Grace' is up there too.

I would recommend all the debunkers and meta-members who haven't seen those 3 BBC documentaries to give them a view.
 

dunbar

Active Member
conspiring force ("the elite") as the deliberate prime mover in most major world events

I've never seen a conspiring force as the prime mover but conspiring forces do try their best to instigate, provoke, agitate, manipulate and then try to steer the wave. If you have vast resources at your disposal then I think you would probably be more than tempted to play master of the universe as well. To develop a vision for the world and to put all your considerable power into attempting to realize that vision. Do you really deny that some people are doing exactly this?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I don't know what the emergent world view is because its never expressed as a coherent pov. All I really see is deconstruction of cartoon strawmen versions of ct stuff. Actually, I would love to have someone step up and explain this emergent view. I know what you folks don't think is going on re the elite and hidden hands, et. al. But if that is not taking place, what IS taking place. I think that would be a fascinating discussion and if it were to take place I am guessing that there would be more overlap than the artificial dichotomy of the labels would suggest.
'

You mention "hidden hands", emergence is somewhat related to a similar sounding term: "invisible hand". But that's a rather limited market term. Emergence has many aspects:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence#Emergence_in_humanity

But basically it's that that individual events and overall trends are generally not planned, because it's impossible to plan things in such large and chaotic systems.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I've never seen a conspiring force as the prime mover but conspiring forces do try their best to instigate, provoke, agitate, manipulate and then try to steer the wave. If you have vast resources at your disposal then I think you would probably be more than tempted to play master of the universe as well. To develop a vision for the world and to put all your considerable power into attempting to realize that vision. Do you really deny that some people are doing exactly this?

Clearly people try to influence world events. The Koch brothers for example, or the Dalai Lama, or Bill Gates, or Howard Zinn. The question here is exactly how much effect do they have in how things turn out the way they want them to, how much of their efforts are secret, and how much are done in conjunction with other people (a conspiracy).
 

Joe Newman

Active Member
Curtis has made some thoroughly thought-provoking documentaries, but this is probably his second best (I think 'The Power of Nightmares' was marginally better, and 'All Watched Over By Machines of Loving Grace' is up there too.

I would recommend all the debunkers and meta-members who haven't seen those 3 BBC documentaries to give them a view.

They are all good, and you have to put the Trap in there, but this one is most pertinent to what we are speaking of so maybe you can say something about it beyond, hey, go watch the other ones. ;)
 

Joe Newman

Active Member
'

You mention "hidden hands", emergence is somewhat related to a similar sounding term: "invisible hand". But that's a rather limited market term. Emergence has many aspects:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence#Emergence_in_humanity

But basically it's that that individual events and overall trends are generally not planned, because it's impossible to plan things in such large and chaotic systems.

Yes, there's not getting around chaos, which is why the whole climate change bit is not panning out and why the models aren't workable and shouldn't drive policy.

But again, this goes back to what I was on about with the misunderstanding of what is meant by planning. It's not a matter of nailing all aspects of some meticulously crafted unberplan or any of that cartoon nwo stuff. That's a meme meant to distract from the real deal, a deal which isn't anywhere as neat an unified as the cartoon Dr. Evil version.
 

Alhazred The Sane

Senior Member.
They are all good, and you have to put the Trap in there, but this one is most pertinent to what we are speaking of so maybe you can say something about it beyond, hey, go watch the other ones. ;)
I could, but it's heading towards 4am, and I'd prefer to have had less beers before yapping about why I think it's essential viewing for anyone who wants to understand how Freud and his nephew's ideas and conceits have impacted on life today.
 

JRBids

Senior Member.
SR1419 said:
Corporations do reflect the society in which they operate. Just look at all the regulations- environmental, labor etc now as opposed to 100yrs ago- Those are a direct result of the society around them dictating the environment in which they operate...they do not operate in a vaccum.

This doesn't follow. Those regulations were put into effect to temper corporations who fought them every step of the way.

Do you think it was better when there were no regulations and corporations could pollute and exploit the environment, work children and adults to the bone etc?
 

JRBids

Senior Member.
JRBids said:
I fail to see how coincidence is the opposite of conspiracy.

Ok, how about you explain this "emergentist" worldview Mick has juxtaposed against the "designed" pov of the cter.

An action takes place and sets off a reaction that causes another reaction etc until the end result. In a designed/conspiracy point of view the ultimate result is decided at the beginning.

I am leave the house at 4PM get in my car and drive down the road, swerve to avoid a dog and hit an oncoming vehicle and kill someone. I do not plan to kill someone when I Lwave the house..
 

Joe Newman

Active Member
Clearly people try to influence world events. The Koch brothers for example, or the Dalai Lama, or Bill Gates, or Howard Zinn. The question here is exactly how much effect do they have in how things turn out the way they want them to, how much of their efforts are secret, and how much are done in conjunction with other people (a conspiracy).

Right. This is why I bridle at the conspiracy theory bit. So much of the social engineering that was planned was done so out in plain site and published for all to see. The eugenics "secret plan" was vigorously debated and advocated in the pages of the NYT and other organs of the press.

But of course, there are layers to the cake as well, and connections that aren't apparent to the casual glance (Like Dalai Lama and the CIA) so there certainly are conspiracies and always have been. Secret societies, too. They compete, they collaborate, and they shift alliances, and they do so in secret. But it's all in flux and it's not a monoplan or static.
 

JRBids

Senior Member.
How come conspiracy theorists never claim there is a conspiracy around something good that happens?
 

Joe Newman

Active Member
An action takes place and sets off a reaction that causes another reaction etc until the end result. In a designed/conspiracy point of view the ultimate result is decided at the beginning.

I am leave the house at 4PM get in my car and drive down the road, swerve to avoid a dog and hit an oncoming vehicle and kill someone. I do not plan to kill someone when I Lwave the house..

That's not exactly a worldview, so as far as I can see the pont of divergence is the misunderstanding of what cters mean by planned or designed. It doesn't mean that unforseen events don't happen or that plans go awry. You didn't plan to kill someone, but you did plan to arrive at your destination.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
How come conspiracy theorists never claim there is a conspiracy around something good that happens?

They do in a sense, eg, when a successful solution to a crisis happens, they can say the crisis was engineered so the solution would be praised.
That view probably comes from the apocalyptic christian anti-christ myth from Revelations, and how he will be praised and given power for providing solutions to strife in the world.
 

JRBids

Senior Member.
That's not exactly a worldview, so as far as I can see the pont of divergence is the misunderstanding of what cters mean by planned or designed. It doesn't mean that unforseen events don't happen or that plans go awry. You didn't plan to kill someone, but you did plan to arrive at your destination.

So change the example to be a worldview. So change it to end with the Twin Towers crashing down. Is it that hard?
 

JRBids

Senior Member.
They do in a sense, eg, when a successful solution to a crisis happens, they can say the crisis was engineered so the solution would be praised.
That view probably comes from the apocalyptic christian anti-christ myth from Revelations, and how he will be praised and given power for providing solutions to strife in the world.

Have they ever done that/ I can't think of any examples.
 

Joe Newman

Active Member
How come conspiracy theorists never claim there is a conspiracy around something good that happens?

It depends on what you mean by good and who decides. When some folks point to a conspiracy around destroying traditional values and tearing apart the fabric of society, they are quite correct. But there are plenty of people that think this is the best thing that could happen and can't wait for it to finally fall.

In general I find folks who slam cters don't really understand where they are coming from. I know I didn't. I used to laugh when I would hear all that wank about the war against Christians or the war against the family. What fucking loons.

Well, having checked into what they were really about and seeing things from their perspective instead of just dismissing it, I actually learned the terrain and they are absolutely correct in their pov. All that is happening and they are losing the battle bigtime, as they will be the first one's to tell you.

The only thing that is up for debate is whether that is a good thing or not.
 

Joe Newman

Active Member
Do you think it was better when there were no regulations and corporations could pollute and exploit the environment, work children and adults to the bone etc?

No, but again, it wasn't the corporations that put the regs in place, so I'm not sure what your point is.
 

Joe Newman

Active Member
I could, but it's heading towards 4am, and I'd prefer to have had less beers before yapping about why I think it's essential viewing for anyone who wants to understand how Freud and his nephew's ideas and conceits have impacted on life today.

Don't post drunk is a rule I've learned to live by the hard way, so I can't kick against that.

It is essential viewing, though, as it shifts the lens completely if one isn't aware of any of that aspect. Damn, but in a very real way, no Eddie, no Freud as a massive influence in America. In no way was it just the power of ideas that won the day; it was the manipulative sociopath whoring for his uncle that carried the day.

Watch at least the first hour of that vid, folks, if you aren't aware of this slice of history. Things will make a lot more sense and you will have a better understanding of why those idiots who are already waiting in line for Black Friday and their kindred spirits are like they are.

Eddie Bernays. If you don't know who he is and the direct effect he's had on your life, you are ripe for the picking and being picked.

Here it is again. Not a lot can truly be said to be absolutely vital viewing. This can and is.

 
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Bill

Senior Member.
Fine. Come up with that metric and get back to us and we'll take it for a spin.
You are the one making the claim without any real measure to prove the difference between the elite and the poor beyond your perception of the ability of the elite to "wall themselves off from the poor". Since you made the claim you should have some way to validate it.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
It depends on what you mean by good and who decides. When some folks point to a conspiracy around destroying traditional values and tearing apart the fabric of society, they are quite correct. But there are plenty of people that think this is the best thing that could happen and can't wait for it to finally fall.

In general I find folks who slam cters don't really understand where they are coming from. I know I didn't. I used to laugh when I would hear all that wank about the war against Christians or the war against the family. What fucking loons.

Well, having checked into what they were really about and seeing things from their perspective instead of just dismissing it, I actually learned the terrain and they are absolutely correct in their pov. All that is happening and they are losing the battle bigtime, as they will be the first one's to tell you.

The only thing that is up for debate is whether that is a good thing or not.

Actually I think the "culture war" conspiracy theory is very much up for debate. But probably elsewhere. Suffice to say you are a firm believer in that particular theory.
 

Alhazred The Sane

Senior Member.
Modern farming in the first world is no where as hard on the environment as 'traditional' agriculture is. In the 30s, we had a Dust Bowl, today we have a major drought in the same area and no Dust Bowl.

Thankfully, lessons have been learned in respect to deep ploughing. However, is monocultural farming not hard on the environment? With respect to bio-diversity, that's very debatable.

The worst abusers of the environment is state owned industries. When Pemex's Ixtoc well blew out in 1979, the beaches from the Yucatan to just south of Corpus Christi were slathered in heavy weathered oil. The Kemp's Ridley Sea Turtle was almost killed off. The fishing and tourism industry was devastated (It took most of year to kill the well). Pemex paid NOTHING on either side of the border for the environmental destruction and clean up and for the loss of incomes. When BP's well blew out they spent millions on clean up, remeditation and pay outs.

BP were responsible, through corporate negligience for the biggest environmental disaster in American history, so holding them up as a shining example of how corporations are better than public entities seems odd. BP are just one corporation in a long list that includes the following disasters: the Summitville mine, Dunsmuir, the Phillips Disaster, Martin County coal slurry spill, Basin F, the Berkeley Pit, the Cuyahoga River pollution, Picher Oklahoma, Exxon Valdez, WR Grace in Montana, Hooker Chemical, Hinckley and the Love Canal. If I recall correctly, Union Carbide owned the Bhopal site and those who suffered there had to fight tooth and nail to get any kind of compensation.
 

dunbar

Active Member
'

You mention "hidden hands", emergence is somewhat related to a similar sounding term: "invisible hand". But that's a rather limited market term. Emergence has many aspects:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence#Emergence_in_humanity

But basically it's that that individual events and overall trends are generally not planned, because it's impossible to plan things in such large and chaotic systems.

So social emergence gives rise to patterns, structures, and organizations and then those organizations act upon the world with deliberate agency to shape or reshape the world according to their purpose. ordo ab chao... get it?

"Emergent processes or behaviours can be seen in many other places, such as cabal and market-dominant minority phenomena in economics"

"different reasons for the market dominance of different groups. Some groups achieve market dominance because of colonial oppression or apartheid. In other cases, it may be due to the culture and family networks of these groups."

"A cabal is a group of people united in some close design together, usually to promote their private views or interests in a church, state, or other community, often by intrigue. Cabals are sometimes secret societies composed of a few designing persons, and at other times are manifestations of emergent behavior in society or governance on the part of a community of persons who have well established public affiliation or kinship. The term can also be used to refer to the designs of such persons or to the practical consequences of their emergent behavior, and also holds a general meaning of intrigue and conspiracy. The use of this term usually carries strong connotations of shadowy corners, back rooms and insidious influence. The term is frequently used in conspiracy theories"

Janine R. Wedel is a university professor in the School of Public Policy at George Mason University and a Senior Research Fellow of the New America Foundation.
 
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dunbar

Active Member
You don't 'disconnect dots'. Certainly, you can connect them, but if left alone they are simply dots.

Until they jump out of the bushes and eat you. Pattern recognition and agent detection are essential for survival, the human species would never have arisen without them.
 

JRBids

Senior Member.
No, but again, it wasn't the corporations that put the regs in place, so I'm not sure what your point is.

The point is without the regulations we would still have sweat shops and corporations polluting the environment. You seem to play dumb often when you reply to posts.
 
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