The Moon Tilt & Terminator Illusions

Abishua

Member
Flat earthers NEED to show that the moonlight isn't reflected sunlight, because if it IS, the moon phases show it is a sphere, and the lunar eclipses show that the Earth's shadow is always circular, which means that the Earth must be a sphere as well.
I ran into some cases when the lit moon does not match position of the sun.. I think if the sun is 93 million miles away seeing moon during day would be tricky.. because moon is much closer.. so would the sun not light up the same backside of the moon that is facing away from us?

here is an example where the lighted part of the moon does not match sun position so you can check it out if you want

Source: https://youtu.be/K-ZU3jTReco

[UPDATE] The odd tilt angle of the moon described in the video is an optical illusion caused by the wide viewing angle, illustrated here:
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AI4b_TAkcoM


 
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Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_terminator#Lunar_terminator_illusion
http://chrisjones.id.au/MoonIllusion/
http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~amyers/MoonPaper20June.pdf
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
You can do an experiment to illustrate this. You need two balls for the Earth and the Moon, and a relatively powerful flashlight (preferably where you can focus the beam to increase the brightness on the targets). I recommend the Duracell Durabeam Ultra, which is very bright and has great focus.

Then in a dark room (or at night outside) place the balls so they are illuminated by the flashlight at a distance (at least 10 feet). You'll see the terminators (the line between light and dark). You can then picture yourself on the surface of the Earth ball, and see what the moon looks like from that position. Remember your viewpoint will be tilted, but the key point is that you can be in daylight, and see the sun and the moon in the sky together with the sun partially illuminating the moon.

You can can them move the moon around to various positions, and observe the terminator. It's not going to be quite right because of scale, but you get the general idea. Here, I'll do it now.

20161118-090306-5b5bk.jpg

20161118-090335-0rdr3.jpg

20161118-090404-2kws3.jpg

20161118-090512-b4nxw.jpg

20161118-090745-k1ac9.jpg
 

Z.W. Wolf

Senior Member.
There are two flavors to this FE problem with the moon terminator.

1. The terminator is supposed (by science) to be caused by the moon being half lit by the sun.

2. The terminator is supposed (by science) to be caused by the earth's shadow on the moon.

Number two is the majority position. It took me a long time to figure that out. I'd never dreamed that anyone thought that. But it turns out that this is a common misconception among the general population.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
There are two flavors to this FE problem with the moon terminator.

1. The terminator is supposed (by science) to be caused by the moon being half lit by the sun.

2. The terminator is supposed (by science) to be caused by the earth's shadow on the moon.

Number two is the majority position. It took me a long time to figure that out. I'd never dreamed that anyone thought that. But it turns out that this is a common misconception among the general population.
I doubt the "general population" gives it much thought. I think the idea might be more prevalent in the FE community simply because a very commonly offered proof of the globe earth is "The shadow of the Earth on the moon is curved". So the FE folk think a lot about the claims of the shadow of the Earth on the moon, and that ends up with them thinking the shadow on the moon is supposed to be the Earth's shadow.
 

Z.W. Wolf

Senior Member.
Those who are having trouble with number one:

When they look up at the sky they "see" a close sun. They actually make fun of ball earthers for not immediately seeing this reality.

So they are seeing the earth-moon-sun system as an equilateral triangle. In other words the moon and sun are at an equal distance from the earth. If that were true than the terminator position would not make sense. They are relying on their own perception, which is the heart of the idea.

In an intuitive manner these FE believers feel that the terminator they see not making sense in an earth-moon-sun equilateral triangle is support for the sun being close. I know that sounds confusing, but it's difficult to express this intuitive feeling in words.
 
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Z.W. Wolf

Senior Member.
I agree that the general public doesn't think about these things much. But when people are asked the question, for instance - "what causes the seasons?" - a large number will say that the sun is closer in summer.

According to this: http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...ink-the-sun-goes-around-the-earth-survey-says

Whether these are long standing beliefs about something they seldom think about (or have little interest in), or whether these are an ad hoc answer to a question they had never considered is an interesting question. Certainly 26 percent of the population are not dedicated geocentrists.

My source for the statement that the earth shadow terminator misconception is widespread is this single video:


So perhaps I'm over reaching.

In YT comments sections I've also seen a couple of well meaning globe earthers saying things that show they also believe in the earth shadow terminator.
 
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Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
My source for the statement that the earth shadow terminator misconception is widespread is this single video:
Right, but that's amongst students who have been asked about it. Most people have not given it any thought.

And pretty much all Flat Earthers have given it some thought.

See we are not going to fix these misconceptions in the general population unless we do it at the root, in schools. We can only try to address it now on a case-by-case basis.
 
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Z.W. Wolf

Senior Member.
Right, but that's amongst students who have been asked about it. Most people have not given it any thought.

And pretty much all Flat Earthers have given it some thought.

See we are not going to fix these misconceptions in the general population unless we do it at the root, in schools. We can only try to address it now on a case-by-case basis.
Yes, that's my position exactly. This whole thing is an opportunity to show what people, as a whole, are having trouble with. For example, people seemingly have a tremendous problem with Newton's three laws of motion. More effort has to be made to explain these things on an intuitive level and not just assume that people are "getting it."
 
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Trailblazer

Moderator
Staff member
I think it is quite a common misconception, even among those who know the Earth is not flat. For example see this post on a debunking forum:

upload_2016-11-18_18-43-59.png

"He shows the shadow of the Earth on the Moon"
 

Z.W. Wolf

Senior Member.


This illustrates the problem the FE believers are having with the earth-moon-sun system model. They are assuming a sun and moon at an equal distance from the earth. If the sun were at a position just off the screen to the right, the moon terminator would not make sense as we see it in the sky. The moon would be full or nearly so.

Of course they are assuming their own conclusion: a close sun.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I was thinking about WHY the misconception (of the terminator being the Earth's shadow) occurs. It struck me that we are used to seeing a dark shadow of one object on another,


but not so much a dark shadow on the back side of a ball in sunlight.
20161118-110053-yln85.jpg
Note there's a dark shadow on the beach, but not on the back of the ball.

The reason, of course, is ambient light. The light reflected off everything else in the scene (like the sand here), and direct light from the atmosphere (the sky) and the clouds.

Then you compare that to the moon's terminator, in the blackness of space with practically zero light for other directions.
20161118-110505-okfkv.jpg

It's a stark black shadow. And to our simple human minds it looks more like the shadow cast on the sand than the slight darkening on the back of the ball.

Of course there is a little light even on the unlit portion of the moon, mostly from the Earthlight. You can see this in a really long exposure.
20161118-110745-sp6ka.jpg
Source: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Earthshine_Moon.jpg
 
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Trailblazer

Moderator
Staff member
Of course there is a little light even on the unlit portion of the moon, mostly from the Earthlight. You can see this in a really long exposure.
And sometimes with the naked eye. I wasn't sure why it is sometimes so much more obvious than at other times, so I just looked it up. It's to do with how reflective the Earth is (obviously), which is down to the amount of sunlit ice (less obviously).

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=83782

 

Henk001

Senior Member.
There are two flavors to this FE problem with the moon terminator.

1. The terminator is supposed (by science) to be caused by the moon being half lit by the sun.

2. The terminator is supposed (by science) to be caused by the earth's shadow on the moon.

Number two is the majority position. It took me a long time to figure that out. I'd never dreamed that anyone thought that. But it turns out that this is a common misconception among the general population.
Only a few days ago I heard about a science teacher who told his pupils that. I couldn't believe my ears...
 

Henk001

Senior Member.
I was thinking about WHY the misconception (of the terminator being the Earth's shadow) occurs.
It could also have something to do with the way the moon is often depicted in children's books, like this
upload_2016-11-18_22-49-48.pngThis suggest that something is casting a shadow on the moon, I would say
 

Henk001

Senior Member.
I had a night to sleep on it and i came up with this short lecture (I am a physics teacher so you will excuse me for being a bit excessive)
First, to put things in perpective, a scale drawing of the earth, moon and the moon's orbit
upload_2016-11-19_7-6-25.png
The pale grey dot in the upper part of the orbit represents the moon. Now we want to add the sun. Lets reduce this picture to this and show the sun right next to it:
upload_2016-11-19_7-9-55.png
Now the sun's distance is about 110 times its diameter so if you want to see that in one picture you'll get this
upload_2016-11-19_7-12-51.png
Always keep these dimensions in mind when looking at the following.
We now are trying to see the moon's orbit in perspective, putting it in a plane and let the sunlight come from the right. Also we blow up the size of the earth and the moon:upload_2016-11-19_7-26-20.png
Now look at the two blue arrows, representing the viewing directions towards the moon and towards the sun, they make an angle of 90°. The dashed circle is an arbitrary circle on which we see both the moon and the sun. Now what does this circle look like when projected on the celestial sphere -- which is, for clarity, an imaginary "sphere of directions"? First lets look at it from the standpoint of an observer close to the north pole
upload_2016-11-19_7-32-55.png
The sunlit half of the moon almost faces the sun
Next from the standpoint of an observer living in the mid latitudes:
upload_2016-11-19_7-35-9.png
remember that these 2-dimensional pictures are projections of a 3-dimensional viewing sphere.
At the equator the moon will even look like this
upload_2016-11-19_7-40-34.png
So, on the celestial "sphere" you have to imagine a great circle, being the section of the earth-moon-sun-plane with that sphere. The circle is tilted more or less depending on your latitude (for the sake of simplicity again I also ignore the tilt of the earth's axis and the inclination of the moon's orbit), causing this illusion.
 

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Abishua

Member
Ok.. I see what you guys are saying.. but lets suppose here for a second that moon is a 3d object in the sky.. out of the information the lit portion of the moon gives us we can draw an axis through the moons very center of illumination..



So my question is.. how does this happen? the illuminated part of the moon does not lie.. since moon is lets say 3d.. it shows a specific direction in space where the light source is coming from.. so what are we seeing wrong here? is the sun not where we see it, or is the moon illuminated part not what we see it is? Disregard earth for a second.. just look at where moon shows the lightsource is.. look at it as independent 3d object.. and determine the position of lightsource only by that info.. and then look where the suns position actually is..
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
So my question is.. how does this happen?
The path of light from the sun to the moon is a straight line, so you'd think if you draw the line out from the moon at right angles to the terminator,then it would hit the sun.

And it actually would, if you could get them both in the same photo, taken by a rectilinear lens.

A simpler way of putting it is that the path seems curved for the same reason any long straight line looks curved in panorama photos. Consider this setup (The "sun" here is the larger globe, chosen for size, not color). The sun and moon are the same apparent size, and the line connecting them is straight.
20161119-073337-hkogw.jpg

But when they are far apart (from my viewpoint) I can't get them all in one photo. I have to take three to cover the path.
20161119-073756-yueg0.jpg

Now the line between them is no longer visually straight.

We can also take a panorama photo:
20161119-074206-j4dml.jpg

In reality we are not half-way in between the sun and the moon, we are a lot closer to the moon, so it's more like
20161119-074340-pwxlc.jpg

So there is a straight line going out at right angles to the terminator from the moon to the sun. There are other factors involved - the illusion of them being at the same distance - but most of the time the angle between the moon and the sun is just too large for the whole line to fit in one photo, so it appear curved when shoehorned into a panorama or fisheye.
 

Henk001

Senior Member.
Ok, let me try again to explain. Consider the celestial sphere below:
upload_2016-11-19_16-30-41.png
You see the half-lit moon in one direction (like southeast) and the sun under an angle of 90° (southwest).
When you look at the moon you conclude that it recieves light from the direction indicated by the dashed black arrow. Now you argue that if the moon is sunlit it should point towards the sun like the thick blue arrow.
But that is only where the sun APPEARS to be on the celestial sphere. But neither of them is actually ON that sphere. It is a sphere of directions -- not positions. In reality the sun is 400x further away than the moon. If we zoom out and put the moon and sun on distances with the right proportions we get the following picture:
upload_2016-11-19_16-40-42.png
In fact the sun should be -- on this scale -- about 50 screenwidths to the right. So the dashed arrow and the line of sight towards the sun, the blue arrow, ARE in the same direction. Almost, that is. They make a small angle of 0,15°, intersecting in the sun.
 

Z.W. Wolf

Senior Member.
Ok.. I see what you guys are saying.. but lets suppose here for a second that moon is a 3d object in the sky.. out of the information the lit portion of the moon gives us we can draw an axis through the moons very center of illumination..



So my question is.. how does this happen? the illuminated part of the moon does not lie.. since moon is lets say 3d.. it shows a specific direction in space where the light source is coming from.. so what are we seeing wrong here? is the sun not where we see it, or is the moon illuminated part not what we see it is? Disregard earth for a second.. just look at where moon shows the lightsource is.. look at it as independent 3d object.. and determine the position of lightsource only by that info.. and then look where the suns position actually is..

As I said before your eye is assuming a close sun. You are assuming that the orange line between the sun and moon is parallel to the earth's surface. But the sun is much more distant than the moon. The orange line is on a big slant.

I'll give you an example of what I mean. This is an "Ames room":



And another:


The illusion works because our eye assumes the black line of the baseboard is straight across our line of vision, like in a normal room. But it is actually slanting away from us to the left. The little guys are farther away than the big guys.

Same thing with the sun and moon. We are assuming the sun is the same distance away and that the orange line on that YT video is straight across our line of sight. But the sun is farther away than the moon and the orange line is slanted away from us to our left.


This is what a plan of an Ames room looks like from above, and why the illusion works.


We see the dark blue ball and assume that it's the same distance away as the red ball. It looks like the light blue ball and smaller than it should.


This is what our eye is assuming about the sun-moon-earth system and what the moon phase should look like:

The sun and the moon look like they are the same distance away and that the orange line (the same one in that YT video) is straight across our line of sight. This is the moon we expect to see.

But this is closer to what is really happening:



The sun is farther away than the moon, the orange line is slanted away from us to our left, and the moon looks like this.




That the moon looks like this is actually proof that it is farther away from us than the moon is. It also explains why the much bigger big sun looks like it's the same size as the much smaller moon.
 
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Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I think there's really two illusion here, and some confusion between them.

Firstly when the sun is very far from the the moon in the sky the panorama effect makes it look like the moon is tilted

Secondly when the sun is closer to the moon the tilting illusion vanishes, but now it looks like it's not illuminating enough of the moon (because it's so far behind it).

But this is closer to what is really happening:



The sun is farther away than the moon, the orange line is slanted away from us to our right, and the moon looks like this.
This explains the second illusion. But the illusion in the video is the first one.
 

Z.W. Wolf

Senior Member.
A video about the Ames room illusion:




If you train yourself to see the sun as much farther away than the moon, the moon phase actually looks right.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I ran into some cases when the lit moon does not match position of the sun.. I think if the sun is 93 million miles away seeing moon during day would be tricky.. because moon is much closer.. so would the sun not light up the same backside of the moon that is facing away from us?

here is an example where the lighted part of the moon does not match sun position so you can check it out if you want

Source: https://youtu.be/K-ZU3jTReco
Going back to the OP, the video is describing the moon tilt illusion, but @Abishua seems to be describing the moon phase illusion.

This photo shows the moon tilt illusion, with the yellow line indicating where the sunlight seems to be coming from. This is what the video is demonstrating.
20161119-120405-577c2.jpg
 

Abishua

Member
yes.. I see what you are saying wolf, I am familiar with that kind of room illusion, but also, the sun in the daytime, at 93mil miles away should light up mostly the "dark side" of the moon.. but in the pictures like the one Mick put above we can see 70/80% of the moon lit up! In other words.. far less of the moon should be illuminated because of suns angle because of distance..

Mick how many degrees does this panoramic image cover?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
yes.. I see what you are saying wolf, I am familiar with that kind of room illusion, but also, the sun in the daytime, at 93mil miles away should light up mostly the "dark side" of the moon.. but in the pictures like the one Mick put above we can see 70/80% of the moon lit up! In other words.. far less of the moon should be illuminated because of suns angle because of distance..

Mick how many degrees does this panoramic image cover?
The original is a 360 degree image.
https://www.eso.org/public/images/potw1218a/
20161119-125510-ifqxy.jpg

20161119-125555-jg3dm.jpg

So that make them 6849/16726*360 = 147 degrees apart, which is consistent with the illumination we see.
 

Trailblazer

Moderator
Staff member
And it actually would, if you could get them both in the same photo, taken by a rectilinear lens.
But it's not purely a photographic effect, because you can see it with your own eyes too. The terminator doesn't line up with the sun when you look at the moon in the sky, without a camera. It is down to the misperceptions of a "straight line" in 3D space.
 

Abishua

Member
Heliocentric model complicates it all.. in my opinion.. it all ends up beeing some illusions.. refractions.. terminators.. etc.. I think it's what you see is what you get :D
 

Henk001

Senior Member.
So that make them 6849/16726*360 = 147 degrees apart, which is consistent with the illumination we see.
Apart from the fact that you should not take the azimuthal angular distance, but the angular distance along the great circle that forms the intersection of the celestial sphere with the earth-moon-sun plane -- roughly the ecliptic.
upload_2016-11-19_22-41-19.png
 

Henk001

Senior Member.
Heliocentric model complicates it all.. in my opinion.. it all ends up beeing some illusions.. refractions.. terminators.. etc.. I think it's what you see is what you get :D
Historically speaking the Heliocentric model simplified a lot of things, like the planetary movements, which were quite complicated in the geocentric (Ptolemaic) model. There are a lot of enlightening sites with animations etc. explaining all this; just one example:
http://astro.unl.edu/naap/lps/animations/lps.swf
upload_2016-11-19_22-58-33.png
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
But it's not purely a photographic effect, because you can see it with your own eyes too. The terminator doesn't line up with the sun when you look at the moon in the sky, without a camera. It is down to the misperceptions of a "straight line" in 3D space.
It is a straight line though.

When I'm standing in my garage I see this, looking in three directions from the same spot

The hinge line on my garage door looks straight to me, because it is. In each of the three photos it's also perfectly straight. My brain synthesizes the image so I know it's a straight line. But if I look at one end it does not line up with the other. If you just look at one end or the other it does not line up.
 

Trailblazer

Moderator
Staff member
It is a straight line though.

When I'm standing in my garage I see this, looking in three directions from the same spot

The hinge line on my garage door looks straight to me, because it is. In each of the three photos it's also perfectly straight. My brain synthesizes the image so I know it's a straight line. But if I look at one end it does not line up with the other. If you just look at one end or the other it does not line up.
Yes, right. I think we are saying the same thing, I just meant you don't only see it in photos.

If I look into the top left corner of the room, the line of the ceiling seems to be angled upwards from left to right. If I look at the top right corner, the line of the ceiling seems to be angled downwards left to right.

You_Doodle_2016-11-19T23_53_42Z.jpg

You_Doodle_2016-11-19T23_54_56Z.jpg

Clearly that is actually a straight line, and yet if you projected either end off in a "straight line" then it wouldn't meet the other end.

If you imagine the moon being placed in the top left corner with the terminator perpendicular to that line then you can see that it would not point at the sun in the top right corner.

You_Doodle_2016-11-20T00_10_51Z.jpg
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
If you have a sufficiently wide angle rectilinear lens though, it will appear straight, you just can't go much beyond 90° without significant distortion.
20161119-164525-lsr7a.jpg
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
You get the same thing with contrails, this one was straight:


It even appeared straight, as you could see it was made of of straight line wherever you looked. But in wide angle it's curved.
 

tinkertailor

Senior Member.
Historically speaking the Heliocentric model simplified a lot of things, like the planetary movements, which were quite complicated in the geocentric (Ptolemaic) model. There are a lot of enlightening sites with animations etc. explaining all this; just one example:
http://astro.unl.edu/naap/lps/animations/lps.swf
View attachment 22771
This specific webpage helped me out a lot in the online astronomy class I took a semester ago, when I couldn't quite figure out this problem for myself either. I didn't assume the earth was flat, though. I actually ended up using our space/sky simulator software, Starry Night, and "flew" to the moon to watch the sun and really get what was going on. If it wasn't super expensive because it's connected to the college textbook racket, I'd recommend it. It really helps a LOT.
 

Henk001

Senior Member.
... when I couldn't quite figure out this problem for myself either. I didn't assume the earth was flat, though. ...
And that is essentially where flat earthers go wrong. Their INTERPRETATION of what they observe doesn't match the generally accepted model, "so the model must be wrong" -- instead of "so what am I overlooking?" (and ask an expert (site) to explain).
 

Abishua

Member
You get the same thing with contrails, this one was straight:


It even appeared straight, as you could see it was made of of straight line wherever you looked. But in wide angle it's curved.
but in the video there was camera paning left and right.. you said that con/chem/trail looked straight.. I think if you paned non fisheye camera to the left and right of it it would still look straight.. just like when we see it.. is this effect due to fisheye lenses? or that effect when compositing panoramic images?
 

Z.W. Wolf

Senior Member.
There's an experiment we can all try that will demonstrate that sunlight and both the moon phase and terminator angle really do go together.

Put a ball on a stick, use a zoom lens, back off from the ball/stick, get the ball and the moon reasonably close together in the frame. I promise that the light and shadow on the ball will match the light and shadow on the moon.

Be sure to back away from the ball and zoom in. You want to get a large image of the moon, and keep both the ball and the moon in focus at the same time. You might have to get pretty low to the ground. A standard cell phone camera won't do.

Any ball will do, but some will probably be better than others because we are trying to catch a shadow in full daylight. I'm going to try a golf ball. I like the dimples and the white color.

Take multiple frames in different exposures. Trying to get the right one to get the moon well exposed and to catch the elusive shadow on the ball.

Don't try to get the sun in the same frame. Not necessary or desirable. We're just trying to show that the sunlight here on earth is the same sunlight that shines on the moon. It's from a distant source with parallel rays.


The moon will be good from Saturday, December 3 to Saturday the 10th. (Up during the day and not too full or too thin.)
 
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John X Moon anomalies UFOs, Aliens, Monsters, and the Paranormal 37
Graham2001 Aulis article uses NASA documents to cast doubt on the reality of Apollo Conspiracy Theories 26
TWCobra Very good question asked by Madison Star Moon Contrails and Chemtrails 27
derrick06 Bunk: SyFy: Aliens on the Moon UFOs, Aliens, Monsters, and the Paranormal 29
lamentiraestaahifuera.com A pyramid on the Moon UFOs, Aliens, Monsters, and the Paranormal 12
Mick West Solved: "Alien" with "shadow" on the Moon [Debris in Camera] UFOs, Aliens, Monsters, and the Paranormal 59
James Adams Rectangular building type objects on the surface of the moon [Like the Triangle] General Discussion 3
derrick06 Another Google Moon Anomaly General Discussion 1
C What is this on Google Moon? Skydentify - What is that Thing in the Sky? 2
Grieves Moon Stuff: Stereoscopic examination of Photos Conspiracy Theories 16
ki_cz "Boomerang" Moon UFO video [Bird] Skydentify - What is that Thing in the Sky? 45
Mick West Debunked: Alien Base on the Moon, Triangle of Dots [photo artifact] UFOs, Aliens, Monsters, and the Paranormal 56
Mick West Debunked: China's Moon Rover exhibit showing a nuclear mushroom cloud over Europe. General Discussion 10
Hama Neggs Mike Glynn debates Peter Kusznir with Madisonstar Moon Contrails and Chemtrails 22
TWCobra Debate Challenge from Madisonstar Moon to Mick West West/Wigington Geoengineering Debate 283
AluminumTheory Alex Jones' and his Moon Landing Conspiracy. Conspiracy Theories 18
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