MH17.....claiming responsibility ?

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Leifer

Senior Member.
Am I expecting too much to eventually see some party take responsibility for this ?
......and why would that be expecting too much ?
Maybe, because it is a war/conflict ?
Misdirected targets need an apology if unsuspecting civilians are killed.
If there is no apology or claim of responsibility, someone is lying and placing rhetoric before innocence. (or guilt)
It's disheartening.
There has been ample time for the shooters to raise their hands, in a highly regrettable "oops".
They know who they are......and they are the hidden greased pivot for any resulting bunk or conspiracy.

The 4th Geneva Convention addresses the issue of among other things, civilian casualties.
http://www.wipo.int/wipolex/en/other_treaties/text.jsp?file_id=197507

ARTICLE 3
In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions :
(l) Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.
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....and so on.....

I suspect there will be some claim of responsibility, eventually.
 

Landru

Moderator
Staff member
Am I expecting too much to eventually see some party take responsibility for this ?
......and why would that be expecting too much ?
Maybe, because it is a war/conflict ?
Misdirected targets need an apology if unsuspecting civilians are killed.
If there is no apology or claim of responsibility, someone is lying and placing rhetoric before innocence. (or guilt)
It's disheartening.
There has been ample time for the shooters to raise their hands, in a highly regrettable "oops".
They know who they are......and they are the hidden greased pivot for any resulting bunk or conspiracy.

The 4th Geneva Convention addresses the issue of among other things, civilian casualties.
http://www.wipo.int/wipolex/en/other_treaties/text.jsp?file_id=197507

ARTICLE 3
In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions :
(l) Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.
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....and so on.....

I suspect there will be some claim of responsibility, eventually.
Why? All evidence thus far points to a mistake in identifying the aircraft.
 

Leifer

Senior Member.
A mistake, yes, but the shooting party remains silent ??
Maybe I'm expecting too much, in this war/conflict thing.

Devil's advocate:
I shouldn't expect war to be a responsible playground.
 

Jason

Senior Member
Am I expecting too much to eventually see some party take responsibility for this ?
......and why would that be expecting too much ?
I too am hoping for some resolve on this front, but I fear with the Russians and their propaganda machine involved we might not get the truth for some time to come. It took the Russians 10 yrs to admit to the Korean plane flight 007 they shot down in 1983, so I wouldn't hold our breath waiting for them. We will have to rely on the investigative parties involved.
Also known as "that time the Soviet Union killed a sitting US Congressman." KAL007 was shot down by a Soviet fighter plane on September 1, 1983, killing all 269 passengers and crew, including Larry McDonald, a Congressman from Georgia then in his fourth term. An ardent anti-Communist and believer in various conspiracy theories about the Rockefellers, the Trilateral Commission, and the Council on Foreign Relations plotting to bring about a socialist world government, McDonald also was president of the John Birch Society, the ultra-right-wing conspiracist group.

The fact that the crash killed McDonald would fit perfectly into his particular set of conspiracy theories, but there's no evidence that what happened was more complicated than KAL007 entering Soviet airspace and being shot down as an intruder. This International Civil Aviation Organization report from 1993, incorporating documents released by Russian president Boris Yeltsin that Soviet leaders had previously withheld, summarizes what we know well, and finds Soviet personnel appearing baffled and concerned by the presence of an unknown aircraft, rather than determined to strike intentionally, though their decision to strike without attempting to establish contact with the plane was reckless.
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Soulfly

Banned
Banned
Am I expecting too much to eventually see some party take responsibility for this ?
Yes.
......and why would that be expecting too much ?
Because Humans don't like to admit mistake. Especially if they will get in trouble for it.

There would be hard repercussions, mot likely in the form of sanctions, so blame will not be admitted (if at all) until their war is over, or significant time has passed.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
It seems like there are two issues being raised here.

1. Who shot down the plane?
2. Was there negligence involved in the plane being at that location?

These are separate issues. This thread is about the first issue, not the second.
 

Gary Cook

Active Member
Am I expecting too much to eventually see some party take responsibility for this ?
......and why would that be expecting too much ?
Maybe, because it is a war/conflict ?
Misdirected targets need an apology if unsuspecting civilians are killed.
If there is no apology or claim of responsibility, someone is lying and placing rhetoric before innocence. (or guilt)
It's disheartening.
There has been ample time for the shooters to raise their hands, in a highly regrettable "oops".
They know who they are......and they are the hidden greased pivot for any resulting bunk or conspiracy.

The 4th Geneva Convention addresses the issue of among other things, civilian casualties.
http://www.wipo.int/wipolex/en/other_treaties/text.jsp?file_id=197507

ARTICLE 3
In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions :
(l) Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.
Content from External Source
....and so on.....

I suspect there will be some claim of responsibility, eventually.

Seems everybody is blaming everybody else. Maybe we should all just put it down to human error and work hard not to make the same mistakes again. It doesnt seem like anybody dont it intentionally in that at least nobody has claimed to.
 

Gary Cook

Active Member
It's still mass-manslaughter, not something to be shrugged off. Potentially a war crime.

There are war crimes all over the world going unpunished. But its a warzone. It wasn't the first plane to be shot down there recently. Other planes have been too. Albeit military. They were warned not to fly there I believe. The FAA issued more than one warning. Not that I like war or condone murder.
 

Jason

Senior Member
I think it pretty clear who fired the missile after watching the events unfold over the last couple of days. We have our Secretary of State, John Kerry discussing that they are "certain" the Russian separatist fired the missile on CNN today with Candy Crowly. http://cnnpressroom.blogs.cnn.com/2...-crowley-there-is-no-trust-with-the-russians/
KERRY: Well, we know for certain a lot more, Candy. We know for certain that in the last month, there’s been a major flow of arms and weapons. There was a convoy several weeks ago, about 150 vehicles, with armed personnel carrier, multiple rocket launchers, tanks, artillery, all of which crossed over from Russia into the eastern part of Ukraine, and was turned over to the separatists. We know for certain that the separatists have a proficiency that they’ve gained by training from Russians as to how to use these sophisticated SA11 systems. We know they have the system. We know that they had this system to a certainty on Monday the 14th beforehand, because the social media was reporting it and tracking it, and on Thursday of the event, we know that within hours of this event, this particular system passed through two towns right in the vicinity of the shootdown. We know because we observed it by imagery that at the moment of the shootdown, we detected a launch from that area, and our trajectory shows that it went to the aircraft.

We also know to a certainty that the social media immediately afterwards saw reports of separatists bragging about knocking down a plane, and then the so-called defense minister, self-appointed, of the People’s Republic of Donetsk, Igor Strelkov, posted a social media report that bragging about the shootdown of a transport plane, at which point when it became clear it was civilian, they pulled down that particular report.

We know from intercepts voices which had been correlated intercepts that we have that those are in fact the voices of separatists talking about the shootdown of the plane. They have shot down some 12 planes, aircraft in the last month or so, two of which were major transport planes. And now we have a video showing the – a launcher moving back through a particular area there out into Russia with a missing, at least one missing missile on it.

So we have enormous sort of input about this, which points fingers. And now we have these horrendous—
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KERRY: It basically, it’s pretty clear that this is a system that was transferred from Russia in the hands of separatists. We know with confidence, with confidence, that the Ukrainians did not have such a system anywhere near the vicinity at that point in time
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KERRY: You know, culpability is a judicial term, and people can make their own judgments about what they read here. That’s why we’ve asked for a full-fledged investigation. Yesterday, on Friday, the investigators and the people who were needing access, the OSCE monitors, were given 75 minutes. And obviously, the area is under the control of the separatists. Yesterday, they were given 3 hours. Today, we have reports of drunken separatists piling the remains of people into trucks in an unceremonious fashion, actually removing them from the location. They are interfering with the evidence in the location. They have removed, we understand, some airplane parts. It is critical. This is a very, very critical moment for Russia to step up publicly and join in the effort in order to make sure there is a full-fledged investigation, that the investigators and people who were coming to help from outside, the ICAO, the FBI, the National Transportation Safety Board, we’re sending people over; others are sending people, experts, who have an ability to be able to put these facts together so no one will have doubt, no fingers will be pointed about conspiracies, about ideology and politics governing this. We want the facts. And the fact that the separatists are controlling this in a way that is preventing people from getting there, even as the site is tampered with, makes its own statement about culpability and responsibility.
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Why would the separatist be removing evidence from the crime scene? I'm my experience anyone who tries to tamper with a crime scene is usually trying to cover up something. So, whether or not anyone actually claims responsibility might be irrelevant since we have enough evidence that the separatist are the ones who fired the missile. Their actions only add to the suspicion. Lastly, and if it's true, which I'm willing to take John Kerry's word on this, if they are covering up evidence, I doubt that the rebels are sophisticated enough to realize which evidence needs to be removed and that could likely be coming from Russian Intelligence.
 

Gary Cook

Active Member
I think it pretty clear who fired the missile after watching the events unfold over the last couple of days. We have our Secretary of State, John Kerry discussing that they are "certain" the Russian separatist fired the missile on CNN today with Candy Crowly. http://cnnpressroom.blogs.cnn.com/2...-crowley-there-is-no-trust-with-the-russians/

So, 'because they moved something that may have been a BUK missile they did it?' MAYBE they just didnt want the world to punish their people for something they didnt do. Your evidence is just speculation. I didnt think we are allowed to do that on this forum but hey I am not Admin. Ukraine have removed the bodies. They are implicated in this also. Would of been nice if they were independently examined but it is their country technically so that's normal.

Just as an aside, Kerry has little credibility, in my opinion. That post taken down was posted by fans of the person in question. Not him it seems.

The VK account may not actually be run by Strelkov at all. BuzzFeed's Max Seddon spoke to eastern Ukrainian rebels who said the page "is a fake made by fans." If that's the case, it may be that Strelkov fanboys saw the plane go down, surmised (perhaps wrongly) that rebels had shot them down, and bragged about it on the VK page. It is also possible, to be fair, that the rebels were lying to Seddon about the VK page.
http://www.vox.com/2014/7/17/591308...-take-credit-for-shooting-down-the/in/5677250
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Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Ukraine have removed the bodies.
Huh?
I've heard the rebels are the ones removing the bodies.
Separatists loyal to Russian president Vladimir Putin are said to have driven at least 37 bodies by truck to a forensic laboratory and morgue in Donetsk, eastern Ukraine.

Mr Sweeney’s emotional appeal yesterday to be reunited with his dead son came as another 82 victims were placed in black body bags and left at the roadside in the village of Grabovo. Rebels refused to say where they were being taken.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/490014/Rebels-steal-bodies-from-flight-MH17
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For an overview of the history of the Strelkov's account, see here...
http://www.interpretermag.com/was-col-strelkovs-dispatch-about-a-downed-ukrainian-plane-authentic/
So with a bit of Google forensics of news stories still preserved as they were reported at the time, we can see that:

a) the “Strelkov Dispatches” VKontakte group is trusted and used regularly by a variety of state and independent media and was used for this story;
b) other separatist sources cited by the Russian state media had the same version of the “Ukrainian transport plane” story talking points as the “Strelkov Dispatches” and they were used as sources without any reference to VK;
c) the eye-witnesses who reported the downing also made the presumption that separatists downed the airplane — and this was also assumed by the writers of the Russian state news stories.


The issue isn’t whether “Strelkov Dispatches” are used — they are, all the time, by Russian state media, i.e. regnum.ru two days before the downing of the Malaysian plane.
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You seem really eager to give them a lot of benefit of doubt and blame Ukraine instead. Why? That's exactly what Russia Today wants to do as well, I wonder why?
 

Gary Cook

Active Member
Huh?
I've heard the rebels are the ones removing the bodies.
Separatists loyal to Russian president Vladimir Putin are said to have driven at least 37 bodies by truck to a forensic laboratory and morgue in Donetsk, eastern Ukraine.

Mr Sweeney’s emotional appeal yesterday to be reunited with his dead son came as another 82 victims were placed in black body bags and left at the roadside in the village of Grabovo. Rebels refused to say where they were being taken.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/490014/Rebels-steal-bodies-from-flight-MH17
Content from External Source
For an overview of the history of the Strelkov's account, see here...
http://www.interpretermag.com/was-col-strelkovs-dispatch-about-a-downed-ukrainian-plane-authentic/
So with a bit of Google forensics of news stories still preserved as they were reported at the time, we can see that:

a) the “Strelkov Dispatches” VKontakte group is trusted and used regularly by a variety of state and independent media and was used for this story;
b) other separatist sources cited by the Russian state media had the same version of the “Ukrainian transport plane” story talking points as the “Strelkov Dispatches” and they were used as sources without any reference to VK;
c) the eye-witnesses who reported the downing also made the presumption that separatists downed the airplane — and this was also assumed by the writers of the Russian state news stories.


The issue isn’t whether “Strelkov Dispatches” are used — they are, all the time, by Russian state media, i.e. regnum.ru two days before the downing of the Malaysian plane.
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You seem really eager to give them a lot of benefit of doubt and blame Ukraine instead. Why? That's exactly what Russia Today wants to do as well, I wonder why?

I dont want anything except maybe not getting blown up in WW3 potentially. I have a child also. A rather beautiful one I may add. =)

But in terms of this forum, I want there to be no bunk. Either from individuals, media or governments.

I have never said Russian Separatists didnt do it but I am open to other parties being potential culprits and I think claims that 'Putin did it' are bunk.

Since you asked my motives.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
okay. Where did you hear Ukrainians and not rebels were moving the bodies, can you post the article?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
This thread is a about claims of responsibility, not who moved the bodies.

Nobody has accepted responsibility yet. Let's just wait until either they do, or it gets figured out.
 
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