Conspiracy Theories, Bad Reporting, Bunk, and the Malheur Militia Incident in Burns, Oregon

NoParty

Senior Member.
They're even asking "why" the officer he almost ran down jumped in front of the car, and claim Finicom was ambushed by the one who came out of the woods. As if anyone knew exactly where he would skid out out that he would run. They're typical truthers. Like 911 truthers who think charges were placed in the wtc atty the exact floors the planes hit.
I'd be surprised if there weren't multiple agents in the trees
on both sides of the roadblock, in the event Finicum tried to run for it.
Authorities would be crucified if he somehow got away at that point.
 

BombDr

Senior Member.
I'd be surprised if there weren't multiple agents in the trees
on both sides of the roadblock, in the event Finicum tried to run for it.
Authorities would be crucified if he somehow got away at that point.
Ambushes with friendly forces facing each other are seldom a good idea.
 

NoParty

Senior Member.
Ambushes with friendly forces facing each other are seldom a good idea.
I get that, as a rule...but given the logistics here, I'm still guessing both directions are covered.
(Hopefully we'll find out, at some point)
 

Pigeonkak

Member
Finicum is pictured in the media with an under arm holster on his left side.



The video, at least to mine and many other commentators' eyes, shows Finicum reaching suddenly for something on his left side. Police didn't need much more than that to shoot him.

However, if you need more reasonable evidence of a threat - He stated his death wish numerous times to the press, was known to be armed, had a preference for left side holsters at least some of the time and had already evaded arrest and endangered many lives by driving off.

On the military installation I work on, he'd have been shot to pieces just for pulling off. But these officers showed restraint not turning the car into swiss cheese.
 

derwoodii

Senior Member.
im hoping recorded audio from the event will be released to help confirm how it panned out

FBI version

http://media.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/other/2016/01/28/FBI statement.pdf

 

Efftup

Senior Member.
So more than one Officer shot him? It would be interesting to see how many times he was shot and where. Although it does look TO ME as if he is reaching for something and not reacting to being hit, it would be easy for someone to believe otherwise unless he was simply not shot in that area.
 

BombDr

Senior Member.
Which is why people always say:
"The situation has reached a dangerous 'powder-keg' level; we need to bring in the sober, soothing calm of Alex Jones!"

Screen Shot 2016-01-30 at 4.54.31 PM.png
"I'm comin' to Oregon, just make sure they turn off the weather machine when i arrive...."
 

MickeyS

Member
They're even asking "why" the officer he almost ran down jumped in front of the car, and claim Finicom was ambushed by the one who came out of the woods. As if anyone knew exactly where he would skid out out that he would run. They're typical truthers. Like 911 truthers who think charges were placed in the wtc atty the exact floors the planes hit.

My perception was that the guy was standing behind a very large truck and he probably thought Finicum was going to ram right into it, he was running out of the way I'm sure...he just ran the wrong way lol poor guy
 

tadaaa

Senior Member
So more than one Officer shot him? It would be interesting to see how many times he was shot and where. Although it does look TO ME as if he is reaching for something and not reacting to being hit, it would be easy for someone to believe otherwise unless he was simply not shot in that area.

yeah, it looks to me like he may have been shot as he was facing the road (i.e. before the fatal shot where he falls over) - from the video he seems to do a unnatural movement, almost like a little hop, he then turns and seems to reach for his gun

but I suppose the autopsy would clear it up

but it does seem to be a case of "suicide by cop"
 

Balance

Senior Member.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-oregon-militia-surrender-idUSKCN0VK20Y

Anyone know who's the last man standing?

ETA: It's David Fry, as I thought.

Live stream broadcasting mediators trying to talk him out, he says he's ready to suicide.

 
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Leifer

Senior Member.
Interesting use of live youtube.
However, I don't think it helped strengthen their cause to the general public, or to gather future followers.
It may sound satisfying to those who already support their cause, but to most people.....they sounded unreasonable.

"This is the call that was rebroadcast live from the refuge on 02/10/16"
(foul language warning)
 
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NoParty

Senior Member.
I feel a little bad saying it, but perhaps the disastrous consequences of this ill-conceived plan will lessen the likelihood of a similar attempt...I think they set their cause back considerably:

A) One "rebel" dead (Finicum...on film, reaching for a weapon...which most folks see)
B) Many "rebels" facing trials and prison time
C) Felony convictions = No more (legal) guns :( [18 U.S.C. § 922(g)]
D) Public opinion (mostly) does not rally to their cause...
E) David Fry's closing rambling about Obama, cookies, UFOs, and human mutants hurts "credibility" of occupiers
F) Cliven Bundy! Authorities could've never predicted that getting CB in an easy-to-arrest situation would've been one of the silver linings of this ridiculous situation. Huge bonus!!
(finally addressing the "There were no consequences for the 2014 law-breaking, which only emboldens this kind of activity" argument)



ETA: C)...courtesy of deirdre
 
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deirdre

Senior Member.
I feel a little bad saying it, but perhaps the disastrous consequences of this ill-conceived plan will lessen the likelihood of a similar attempt...I think they set their cause back considerably:

A) One "rebel" dead (Finicum...on film, reaching for a weapon...which most folks see)
B) Many "rebels" facing trials and prison time
C) Public opinion (mostly) does not rally to their cause...
D) David Fry's closing rambling about Obama, cookies, UFOs, and human mutants hurts "credibility" of occupiers
E) HUGE bonus: Feds nab Cliven Bundy out of nowhere!
(finally addressing the "There were no consequences for the 2014 law-breaking, which only emboldens this kind of activity" argument)
Plus, unless i'm mistaken, a felony conviction means you just lost your right to own a gun for the rest of your life. That's gotta hurt.
 

NoParty

Senior Member.
Plus, unless i'm mistaken, a felony conviction means you just lost your right to own a gun for the rest of your life. That's gotta hurt.

That's right...though I imagine a lawyer might know of a loophole, and wouldn't we expect
some of these folks to illegally acquire guns anyway, just hoping they didn't get caught?

http://www.ncids.org/Defender Training/2004 New Felony Defender Training/Federal Consequences.pdf

At any rate, great point deirdre, I'm going to tack it on the list... :p
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
and wouldn't we expect
some of these folks to illegally acquire guns anyway, just hoping they didn't get caught?
Noone even thought to check if PeaPod or Walmart delivers way out there, before they holed up for months in the middle of the winter with no food supplies (i still can not believe this liberal government let supplies get delivered). Chances are good they'd get caught.
 

Pigeonkak

Member
Something else the Malheur Militiamen didn't anticipate is the derision they received from very experienced military veterans. Especially the "door kickers" or operator types that these guys try so hard to emulate. Politically many veterans may actually vote in the same direction as the protesters, but having seen combat and been in pretty gnarly places a great deal of commentary from these sources is derisive. Here's a typical example from oafnation.com:

http://www.oafnation.com/hitter-feed/2016/2/15/oregon-standoff-send-snacks-please

The community these occupiers admire think they are idiots. Hopefully it hinders there confidence in future 'operations'.
 

derwoodii

Senior Member.
There quiet a few bangs and cracks just before & after car stops and then in the after math. I counted 3 pistol shots for Lavoys suicide by law.. The bangs and cracks i believe are non lethal pepper gas or personal subdue ammo. They did not from my best understanding fire live lethal rounds at car.
 

derwoodii

Senior Member.
well i was wrong, seems some one did shoot at the truck

entry.PNG


tho this looks like an exit hole ? so far unexplained



http://katu.com/news/local/fbi-agents-investigated-over-shots-fired-during-standoff

lavoy.PNG



http://katu.com/news/local/a-look-at-the-weapons-found-inside-finicums-truck

 

BombDr

Senior Member.
There quiet a few bangs and cracks just before & after car stops and then in the after math. I counted 3 pistol shots for Lavoys suicide by law.. The bangs and cracks i believe are non lethal pepper gas or personal subdue ammo. They did not from my best understanding fire live lethal rounds at car.
It is quite hard to tell from the video, but being objective, those inside the vehicle would probably found it difficult to discern the difference, and from a tactical point of view, quite difficult to induce people into surrendering if you are simultaneously shooting at them.

To be clear, these people brought it upon themselves and were given multiple opportunities to resolve this peacefully over the whole event, and during the first stop, but its hard to comply with people shouting and shooting at you at the same time.
 

MikeG

Senior Member.
I found this long article in the Washington Post today.

Primed to Fight.png
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/na...-main_constitutionalguard908pm:homepage/story

The article gave an interesting perspective on the scale of the movement.

 

This is somewhat deceptive reporting on the part of the Washington Post. They're implying that all 1000 groups are "anti-government extremists, militias, armed militants or even domestic terrorists". But SPLC's own page doesn't even say this:

SPLC also has a reputation (earned, in my opinion) of inflating their lists with nonviolent libertarian or conservative organizations, as well as listing every local chapter of a national organization as if it were a separate group (e.g., Oath Keepers alone is 185 out of the 998 groups listed).
 

MikeG

Senior Member.
This is somewhat deceptive reporting on the part of the Washington Post. They're implying that all 1000 groups are "anti-government extremists, militias, armed militants or even domestic terrorists". But SPLC's own page doesn't even say this:

SPLC also has a reputation (earned, in my opinion) of inflating their lists with nonviolent libertarian or conservative organizations, as well as listing every local chapter of a national organization as if it were a separate group (e.g., Oath Keepers alone is 185 out of the 998 groups listed).

Good call Bill.

It is important not to conflate groups. I thought the chart that was included on the SPLC was good. "Militia" groups have grown, although they don't appear to have reach the same level as the late nineties. Still, the number has increased pretty substantially since 2008.

I am going to look at some alternate sources, probably the FBI, to see if these numbers are reliable.

patriot-chart-line_chart_militia.png
 
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