I am a Chemtrail Advocate . . . I believe there is an Aerosol Injection Program

[Mick West]

George, maybe you could sum up your theory? So far it seem like you are saying:

The US government anticipated a slight increase in contrails 20 years ago during the development of high-bypass jet engines. They subtly encourage all the world's airlines to not take action to reduce contrails, so they could spray 20 million tons of sulfur compounds into the atmosphere without anyone in the world noticing.

 

[George B]

Yes, and that would mean the sort of changes in transmission seen in 1982 and 1992 with Pinatubo and El Chicon, which sends the transmission down and off the charts. It simply isn't happening, George, and the paper YOU cited shows this. You can't twist the data to show any such perturbation, man!

I disagree, any cogent injection strategy to maintain minimal temperature variation would be orchestrated to decrease when natural or anthropomorphic sources were high And lowering temperatures and increase when they were low and were pushing the temperatures up . . . Also, the injection programs could also simply be ineffective and a failure. . .

Please demonstrate what you are saying . .

 

[MikeC]

I think George is correct there. That's global radiative forcing, not local. The huge local effect was in the other paper cited, regarding some unusual measurements.

http://www.mendeley.com/research/a-...ntrails-evolving-into-contrailinduced-cirrus/

.

Perhaps I am missing the point - I get that contrails & cirrus can have a greater effect than the pollution products of aviation while the clouds exist, and over the period they cover.

But I do not see anything there that says that the total summed effect of them over time (say the last 15 years) and the entire world is greater than the total effect of the CO2 emissions for that time, which seem to me what he is saying, and which I have seen other chemtrail believers say also.

My apologies if I'm mistaken.

 

[George B]

No, ADDED materials COULD be utilized for such a thing. You haven't showed that anyone has INTENTIONALLY added anything above and beyond what is normally associated with the normal sources including man made and natural sources.

Noble, the point of the original post was simply point out that to push the globe one degree C was well within the capabilities of commercial aviation . . .

 

[Jay Reynolds]

George, the 20 million tons is EXACTLY what Pinatubo put up there. That is the reason they use that figure. See the graph where it dips down off the chart, THAT is the effect of 20 million tons of SO2. Such an increase hasn't occurred, transmission levels cleaned up through the 1990's after Pinatubo in 1992, and now we are in a backbround condition with "persistently variable" aerosols no more or les than they were forty years ago in the 1960's and 70's. It's simple.
You said you read Teller, here he is:
http://www.evolutionquebec.com/site/archives/teller.htm

 

[George B]

And if you want to claim that stratospheric aerosols are perturbing solar transmission, citing a paper that shows no such perturbation is a losing battle!

I have no idea what your point is . . . Or what paper you are talking about . . . The papers presented have all referred to strategies to reduce global warming (in the future) or why such intervention is necessary, and one which talks about more particulate in the stratosphere since 2000 than expected. . . .

 

[George B]

George, the 20 million tons is EXACTLY what Pinatubo put up there. That is the reason they use that figure. See the graph where it dips down off the chart, THAT is the effect of 20 million tons of SO2. Such an increase hasn't occurred, transmission levels cleaned up through the 1990's after El Chicon in 1992, and now we are in a backbround condition with "persistently variable" aerosols no more or les than they were forty years ago in the 1960's and 70's. It's simple.
You said you read Teller, here he is:
http://www.evolutionquebec.com/site/archives/teller.htm

So you are saying. . . .What? That this is proof no injection program to reduce global warming has occurred?

 

[George B]

And if you want to claim that stratospheric aerosols are perturbing solar transmission, citing a paper that shows no such perturbation is a losing battle!

attempts and success may be two different things. . . .

 

[Jay Reynolds]

So you are saying. . . .What? That this is proof no injection program to reduce global warming has occurred?

Specifically, YES!
Here is the paper that shows the Mauna Loa transmission:
http://junksciencecom.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/solomon-07-22-11.pdf

here is the graph:
https://www.metabunk.org/posts/1112

If such an "injection" were taking place, transmission would have to go down. It has not, and this shows that the hypothesis that "injection" has taken place is false.

 

[Noble1965]

Noble, the point of the original post was simply point out that to push the globe one degree C was well within the capabilities of commercial aviation . . .

Oh, my mistake. I thought you were discussing "chemtrails"...not normal byproducts of commercial aviation.

 

[Jay Reynolds]

Note background since 1960's.
Note effects of 20 million tons by Pinatubo.
Note transmission in 1998(chemtrails hoax started).
Note transmission 12 years later.
Note no decrease in transmission.
Note return to background since 1960's
This disproves all claims of Solar Radiation Geoengineering.
It ain't happening.
Capiche?

see the little squiggles in the inset, which have occurred since, forever....
THAT is "persistent variable"

 

[Jay Reynolds]

I have added that graph to the previous discussion on this subject.
https://www.metabunk.org/posts/5460

 

[George B]

George, maybe you could sum up your theory? So far it seem like you are saying:

The US government anticipated a slight increase in contrails 20 years ago during the development of high-bypass jet engines. They subtly encourage all the world's airlines to not take action to reduce contrails, so they could spray 20 million tons of sulfur compounds into the atmosphere without anyone in the world noticing.

That would seem to be a paradox would it not . . . except one needs to break it down into two different environs . . .

1) The Local Area, City, State, & Country . . . and temporary effects of limiting extremes in high and low temperatures . . .Jet Contrails Alter Average Daily Temperature Range http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/08/020808075457.htm

2) Global Manipulation . . . the need to mitigate global warming
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratospheric_sulfate_aerosols_(geoengineering)

 

[Mick West]

And obviously such a scheme could not have been deployed yet, given the only minor rise in the background level of SSAs, as explained by Jay, above.

You really think this is an actual conspiracy - carefully executed over decades? On a world-wide scale? A conspiracy that as yet HAS HAD NO VISIBLE EFFECT?

Seems like we get back to robot cats. They don't seem to be having any effect either.

 

[Noble1965]

And obviously such a scheme could not have been deployed yet, given the only minor rise in the background level of SSAs, as explained by Jay, above.

You really think this is an actual conspiracy - carefully executed over decades? On a world-wide scale? A conspiracy that as yet HAS HAD NO VISIBLE EFFECT?

Seems like we get back to robot cats. They don't seem to be having any effect either.

The truth is, there are MORE robot cats in the world than there are "chemtrails". I have seen the evidence of robot cats...no matter how many times I ask, no one shows me evidence of "chemtrails".

 

[Mick West]

One might argue that the robot cats you see are the equivalent of crop dusters and cloud seeders in the chemtrail theory. Robot spy cats of course can be deduced from various DARPA projects:

DARPA’S Nano Robot Spy Hummingbird Moves Just Like a Real Bird!
DARPA shells out $21m for IBM cat brain chip
DARPA Gives $32 Million For A Bigger Big Dog From Boston Dynamics
Beyond Surveillance: Darpa Wants a Thinking Camera

Connect the dots. Robot spy cats. I mean, why else spend $21 million on a synthetic cat brain.

 

[George B]

And obviously such a scheme could not have been deployed yet, given the only minor rise in the background level of SSAs, as explained by Jay, above.

You really think this is an actual conspiracy - carefully executed over decades? On a world-wide scale? A conspiracy that as yet HAS HAD NO VISIBLE EFFECT?

Seems like we get back to robot cats. They don't seem to be having any effect either.

Whether optical depth of aerosols, clear sky solar transmission go up or down is not evidence of any single source of aerosol, gas or particulate except possibly for volcanic eruptions . . . the data supports two major thing as far as I am concerned . . . the temperature is going up and the volcanic eruptions do reduce total Radiative Forcing . . . everything else is speculation . . . I agree that the NOAA findings are inconclusive and so minimal as to be beg any single suggested cause; however, it does not eliminate the experimental or implemented aerosol injection program . . . either . . . without it there may have been even less particulate in the stratosphere than was found . . . they filled the gap . . . ???

 

[Noble1965]

One might argue that the robot cats you see are the equivalent of crop dusters and cloud seeders in the chemtrail theory. Robot spy cats of course can be deduced from various DARPA projects:

DARPA’S Nano Robot Spy Hummingbird Moves Just Like a Real Bird!
DARPA shells out $21m for IBM cat brain chip
DARPA Gives $32 Million For A Bigger Big Dog From Boston Dynamics
Beyond Surveillance: Darpa Wants a Thinking Camera

Connect the dots. Robot spy cats. I mean, why else spend $21 million on a synthetic cat brain.

Ahhh...motive, budget, patents...evil desires...repuatable sources of information...it must be true! According to the "logic" that "proves" chemtrails....

 

[Mick West]

Whether optical depth of aerosols, clear sky solar transmission go up or down is not evidence of any single source of aerosol, gas or particulate except possibly for volcanic eruptions . . . the data supports two major thing as far as I am concerned . . . the temperature is going up and the volcanic eruptions do reduce total Radiative Forcing . . . everything else is speculation . . . I agree that the NOAA findings are inconclusive and so minimal as to be beg any single suggested cause; however, it does not eliminate the experimental or implemented aerosol injection program . . . either . . . without it there may have been even less particulate in the stratosphere than was found . . . they filled the gap . . . ???

Honestly, if your argument is "nothing changed, but maybe it would have changed the other way, so they did the opposite, and so nothing appeared to have happened", then you could apply that to ANYTHING. It's a non-argument.

You could equally argue that SSA were going to rise too much, so they added giant SSA suckers and centrifuge extraction stage to jet engines under the guise of "high bypass" (have you seen how much air they suck in, I mean that can't be right!), to keep the SSAs at normal levels.

The simplest explanation for nothing changing is that nothing happened.

 

[George B]

One might argue that the robot cats you see are the equivalent of crop dusters and cloud seeders in the chemtrail theory. Robot spy cats of course can be deduced from various DARPA projects:

DARPA’S Nano Robot Spy Hummingbird Moves Just Like a Real Bird!
DARPA shells out $21m for IBM cat brain chip
DARPA Gives $32 Million For A Bigger Big Dog From Boston Dynamics
Beyond Surveillance: Darpa Wants a Thinking Camera

Connect the dots. Robot spy cats. I mean, why else spend $21 million on a synthetic cat brain.

Did DARPA . . . dump Zinc Cadmium Sulfide from aircraft over a large section of the US or did they just drop cats? . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_LAC

 

[Mick West]

Neither. That was the U.S. Army Chemical Corps.

 

[George B]

Honestly, if your argument is "nothing changed, but maybe it would have changed the other way, so they did the opposite, and so nothing appeared to have happened", then you could apply that to ANYTHING. It's a non-argument.

You could equally argue that SSA were going to rise too much, so they added giant SSA suckers and centrifuge extraction stage to jet engines under the guise of "high bypass" (have you seen how much air they suck in, I mean that can't be right!), to keep the SSAs at normal levels.

The simplest explanation for nothing changing is that nothing happened.

Hmmm . . . . Plausible, yet, those strategies have not been suggested by the scientific community since 1991 . . .however, Stratospheric Injection of Sulfur Compounds have . . . including by one of the greatest scientific minds of our era . . .

 

[Noble1965]

Did DARPA . . . dump Zinc Cambium Sulfide from aircraftover a large section of the US or did they just drop cats? . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_LAC

I'm really sick of the argument that "since "they" have dropped things from airplanes in the past...chemtrails are real". Not saying that was done here...just saying that in general, it's a silly argument.

One thing doesn't prove the other...and the only thing they have in common is "airplanes".

 

[George B]

I'm really sick of the argument that "since "they" have dropped things from airplanes in the past...chemtrails are real". Not saying that was done here...just saying that in general, it's a silly argument.

One thing doesn't prove the other...and the only thing they have in common is "airplanes".

So pointing out that a snake has bitten hikers in the past is not relevant to a safety briefing . . . about hiking . . .???

 

[Mick West]

Hmmm . . . . Plausible, yet, those strategies have not been suggested by the scientific community since 1991 . . .however, Stratospheric Injection of Sulfur Compounds have . . . including by one of the greatest scientific minds of our era . . .

Yet everyone involved, and the observable evidence, says it has not been done yet.

If it WERE being done, then what possible reason would there be for doing it secretly?

We've also proposed putting giant mirrors in space, and sailing giant salt spraying ships on the oceans. There's the same amount of evidence for those theories too.

 

[Mick West]

So pointing out that a snake has bitten hikers in the past is not relevant to a safety briefing . . . about hiking . . .???

Sure, it's just not relevant here.

The government did a test to see how far stuff would blow in the wind. The last one under operation LAC was in the 1960s.

They also conducted secret tests of nuclear weapons.

They also right now are doing all kinds of secret stuff.

That does not make your theory more or less plausible. There are million things that they MIGHT be doing, for which there is no evidence. Why pick this one?

I really do think you should take a week off.

 

[George B]

Yet everyone involved, and the observable evidence, says it has not been done yet.

If it WERE being done, then what possible reason would there be for doing it secretly?

We've also proposed putting giant mirrors in space, and sailing giant salt spraying ships on the oceans. There's the same amount of evidence for those theories too.

Now IMO that is the best question asked so far . . . let me think about how to answer that for awhile . . .

 

[Noble1965]

So pointing out that a snake has bitten hikers in the past is not relevant to a safety briefing . . . about hiking . . .???

That analogy isn't even close...An analogy you should have used involving a snake/hiking would have to be...

" I was bitten by a snake while on a hike...that means any snake you see on a hike will bite you".

If it were to be similar to the past spraying = present spraying argument.

 

[George B]

Sure, it's just not relevant here.

The government did a test to see how far stuff would blow in the wind. The last one under operation LAC was in the 1960s.

They also conducted secret tests of nuclear weapons.

They also right now are doing all kinds of secret stuff.

That does not make your theory more or less plausible. There are million things that they MIGHT be doing, for which there is no evidence. Why pick this one?

I really do think you should take a week off.

The problem with what you just stated is that the government hid the fact they did all these things until 1994 when the Congressional Hearings exposed them in very angry and heated proceedings . . . so if we use the above time for disclosure of more recent wrong doing of any act against the public good we can expect them to finally admit it . . . . in what . . . . between 2020 and 2040 . . .

 

[Noble1965]

Sure, it's just not relevant here.

The government did a test to see how far stuff would blow in the wind. The last one under operation LAC was in the 1960s.

They also conducted secret tests of nuclear weapons.

They also right now are doing all kinds of secret stuff.

That does not make your theory more or less plausible. There are million things that they MIGHT be doing, for which there is no evidence. Why pick this one?

I really do think you should take a week off.

Now he's going to tell everyone that you "told him to leave" for a week...

 

[Noble1965]

The problem with what you just stated is that the government hid the fact they did all these things until 1994 when the Congressional Hearings exposed them in very angry and heated proceedings . . . so if we use the above time for disclosure of more recent wrong doing of any act against the public good we can expect them to finally admit it . . . . in what . . . . between 2020 and 2040 . . .

Yeah, they are going to admit everything they do now, between 2020 and 2040...It's standard procedure.

 

[Mick West]

The problem with what you just stated is that the government hid the fact they did all these things until 1994 when the Congressional Hearings exposed them in very angry and heated proceedings . . . so if we use the above time for disclosure of more recent wrong doing of any act against the public good we can expect them to finally admit it . . . . in what . . . . between 2020 and 2040 . . .

Dubious inference there. The tests were not thought to be against the public good. In fact they were very much thought to be FOR the public good. They were secret because they pertained to warfare.

All kinds of things are classified, top secret. That does not mean that everything you think of is actually being done.

 

[George B]

Sure, it's just not relevant here.

The government did a test to see how far stuff would blow in the wind. The last one under operation LAC was in the 1960s.

They also conducted secret tests of nuclear weapons.

They also right now are doing all kinds of secret stuff.

That does not make your theory more or less plausible. There are million things that they MIGHT be doing, for which there is no evidence. Why pick this one?

I really do think you should take a week off.

Maybe the government or other institutions with lots of money and power want to see how much aerosols injected into the atmosphere will alter climatic and weather patterns . . . and not incur questions and public debate?

 

[George B]

Dubious inference there. The tests were not thought to be against the public good. In fact they were very much thought to be FOR the public good. They were secret because they pertained to warfare.

All kinds of things are classified, top secret. That does not mean that everything you think of is actually being done.

And aerosols cannot be used for warfare?

 

[Mick West]

Maybe they also want to spy on the public, and zoomorphic robots are the best way of doing it, but they don't want people to know they are doing it.

Same thing.

 

[Mick West]

And aerosols cannot be used for warfare?

I'm sure the military has classified research involving aerosols. They also have classified research on trained dolphins, and robot dogs. So what?

 

[George B]

Maybe they also want to spy on the public, and zoomorphic robots are the best way of doing it, but they don't want people to know they are doing it.

Same thing.

There is no known history of that nor is there record of the best Scientific minds of the nation suggesting such acts . . .

 

[Jay Reynolds]

Maybe

yes, "maybe" pretty much begins all conspiracy theories, doesn't it?

 

[George B]

I'm sure the military has classified research involving aerosols. They also have classified research on trained dolphins, and robot dogs. So what?

Just pointing out there is a history and as they say history often repeats itself . . .

 

[George B]

yes, "maybe" pretty much begins all conspiracy theories, doesn't it?

Maybe . . . I need some rest . . . thanks for the stimulating debate . . . I will return tomorrow . . .