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  1. George B

    George B Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member Staff Member

    I am new to your forum . . . these are some of the reasons I believe there is an Aerosol Injection program in place and or Chemtrail Conspiracy . . .
    Checklist
    1. Is thereevidence of particulate or aerosols in the atmosphere which are unaccounted forby any source identified by Atmospheric Scientists? . . . Yes
    2. Is there evidencesuggesting that something has changed the rate of global warming? . . . Yes
    3. Is there evidenceof unaccounted budget and mechanisms to allocate, spend and manage projectswithout the public's knowledge or consent? . . . Yes
    4. Are thereunidentified Aircraft that fly daily which the public has no information about their mission,goals, flight path, altitude or purpose? . . . Yes
    5. Do these unidentified Aircraft sometime leave persistentTrails? . . . Yes
    6. Are there whistleblowers who have indicated that aChemtrail program is ongoing?. . . Yes
    7. Are there inexistence technology to accomplish a program of aerosol dispersal at altitudeand a set of airframes available to accomplish such a mission? . . . Yes
    8. Has there beensufficient time from the development of technology and motive for chemtrailprograms to see them fully tested, deployed, and operational? . . . Yes
    9. Are theresufficient aerosol materials readily available to accomplish such a dispersalprogram? . . . Yes
    10. Is there historyof pre-existing or similar aerosol dispersal programs?. . . Yes
    11. Is theresufficient process and infrastructure to maintain secrecy and covertoperations? . . . Yes
    12. Is there ahistory of operational research regarding the effects of (chemical) aerosols being added to jet fuel to monitor the visual and atmosphericmeasurement effects? . . .Yes
    13. Are there Local, National, and Global motives toengage in an aerosol dispersal program? . . . Yes
    14. Are the motivesfor such programs and the technology and procedures for their implementationsbeing discussed in scientific and political organizations worldwide? . . . Yes
    15. Are there national and international laws, regulations, treaties, andorganizations available ready to facilitate and not eliminate such aerosolinjection programs? . . .Yes
    16. Are there any monitoring programs where data isavailable to the public that eliminates the possibility of the existence ofsuch a dispersal program? . . . No
    17. Is there anyevidence other than official announcements from Governmental and Politicalsources that Chemtrails don't exist? . . . No
    18. Is there a smallyet vocal group of people who insist that such a program exists? . . . Yes
    19. Is there a history of unexplained substances which havebeen documented that have fallen from the sky? . . .Yes
    20. Have the rates of respiratory diseases, allergies, andconditions associated with the atmosphere continually risen? . . .Yes
    21. Has there been asteady increase in the number of persistent trails observed by people andreported as unusual to their memory? . . . Yes
    22. Has NASA & NOAA as well as similar organizations inthe UK invested significant budget and effort in soliciting the public's helpto identify and report persistent trails in the sky? . . . Yes
    23. Has anypractical contrail mitigation procedures or technology been invested in,deployed, installed or becomeoperational? . . . No
    24. Has NASA utilized satellite imaging in an effort tocorrelate the presence of persistent trails visualized and detected from spacewith ground observations ? . . . Yes
    25. Has NASA and other organizations presented significantresearch that persistent Trails and cirrus clouds may result in significantclimatic impact? . . .Yes
    26. Are governments capable of initiating,implementing, maintaining, and coveringup programs which have been proven to be against the best interest to thehealth and welfare of their citizens? . . .Yes
    27. Do you have any reason to believe some type ofcoordinated, high tech, aerosolinjection program from altitude, dispersed by some type of airframe has not, is not, or will not beimplemented ?. . . No

  2. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Hi George.

    That's a lot of items. But where exactly is the evidence?

    Start with #1, "evidence of particulate or aerosols in the atmosphere which are unaccounted forby any source identified by Atmospheric Scientists"

    Where is this evidence?
  3. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    You can see much of George's claims discussed already at godlikeproductions.
  4. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    It's an interesting discussion technique. Sheer weight of "evidence". Of course the evidence seems either false, non-existent, or unrelated. However, there's so much of it that people get convinced that something must be going on. Otherwise, why would people make such long lists?
  5. Pogopoint99

    Pogopoint99 Senior Member

  6. Pogopoint99

    Pogopoint99 Senior Member

    Which one of those would you like to discuss?
  7. firepilot

    firepilot Senior Member

    Lets do ONE AT A TIME, starting with #1, and not moving on to the next in a laundry list fashion, until this is one discovered.

    Lets discuss this. What are these aerosols that have been found, that can not accounted for by any source?
  8. George B

    George B Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member Staff Member

    If you are talking about number (1) and/or number (2). . Here is your answer. . .

    NOAA study: Increase in particles high in Earth’s atmosphere has offset some recent climate warming
    July 21, 2011
    http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2011/20110721_particles.html

  9. George B

    George B Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member Staff Member

    Or there is a preponderance of circumstantial evidence which would make people think twice about their relationships . . .

    Sorry, I am learning your rules and procedures . . . I am a bit out of my element here . . .
  10. firepilot

    firepilot Senior Member

    And no where, did that ever mention aerosol particles where they could not account for the origin. Did you happen to miss this sentence?

  11. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    #1, you said they were unaccounted for. Yet your source says

    Which seems quite reasonable. There's no suggestions that they come from anywhere mysterious, they just don't know which source it is exactly.

    [edit] what Firepilot said......

    And that's a bit vague for #2. Surely evidence of something changing the rate of global warming would be an actual change of global warming, not a change in something related.

    I see you've debated these points before. Why did you come here?
  12. George B

    George B Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member Staff Member

    I think this sums it up quite well . . . not knowing the reasons implies that the origins could be suspect as well . . . since they do not consider an intentional injection program they would not list it as a possible reason for the unknown increase . . "These particles are also called “aerosols," and the new paper
    explores their recent climate effects -- the reasons behind their increase
    remain the subject of ongoing research.

    “Since the year 2000, stratospheric aerosols have caused a slower rate of climate warming than we would have seen without them,” says John Daniel, a physicist at the NOAA Earth System Research Laboratory (ESRL) in Boulder, Colo."
  13. George B

    George B Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member Staff Member


    I came here to debate with people who do not believe that such a program exists and to see if you can teach me something as well . . . to hope to give you some rational evidence from possibly a different source . . . I also was accepting a dare to debate on a site that was not sympathetic to my arguments . . .
  14. George B

    George B Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member Staff Member

    So you are aware of GLP . . . I have conducted several polls there and have a rather good profile on why people believe in the Chemtrail Conspiracy . . . I hope to share some of that information here if I am allowed to do so . . .
  15. George B

    George B Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member Staff Member

    The issues you wish to challenge . . .
  16. Pogopoint99

    Pogopoint99 Senior Member

  17. firepilot

    firepilot Senior Member

    Sorry, but no. Not knowing exactly the particular source, is not evidence of something else. Besides, did you see what the main constituents which contribute to these aerosols? Nothing that is mentioned on all the chemtrail sites. Two of the three mentioned were gases, the last is a liquid.

    Besides, if the people who did the study were not suspicious, and you are, you are totally reading something into it that is not there. It even specifically mentioned SURFACE EMISSIONS. It is you that are turning into into some airborne emission program.
  18. George B

    George B Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member Staff Member

    Did they say they knew the only possible source or were they speculating as well . . . did they take into account that someone may be intentionally geo-engineering . . . is that not a real possibility . . .of course it can't be . . . they want to maintain their professional status and suggesting such a possible source would ban them for life . . .
  19. firepilot

    firepilot Senior Member

    It is you that are speculating. You told us you had evidence, you told us you had proof of emissions with no known identifiable source. Now you are doing word gymnastics, trying to tell us that a lack of mention of your chemtrail source, is actually evidence for it.

    You will need to give us actual evidence, not just your own conjecture and make believe. You are seeing things that are specifically not even in there, much like those who see Jesus in a slice of bread.
  20. George B

    George B Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member Staff Member


    Sorry to disagree . . . sulfur compounds are the most often mentioned in Aerosol Stratospheric Geoengineering . . . the text underyour graphic . . .

    "Sulfur dioxide (SO2), carbonyl sulfide (OCS), and dimethyl sulfide(DMS) are the dominant surface emissions "
  21. firepilot

    firepilot Senior Member

    and back to your point of no identifiable sources?

    Do volcanoes either not exist or, or do they exist but not actually emit sulfur dioxide?
  22. Pogopoint99

    Pogopoint99 Senior Member

    They mention known sources of stratospheric aerosols. Period. Are you arguing that because they didn't explicitly mention geo-engineering as a source of the increased aerosols, it's evidence that a covert geo-engineering program is responsible for the increased aerosols?

    So to answer your question: "Is thereevidence of particulate or aerosols in the atmosphere which are unaccounted forby any source"

    Maybe there is, but that particular NOAA article doesn't confirm it. Your question asked for evidence, but you've supported your answer with speculation and special pleading.

    BTW Mick: I stand corrected, sarcasm is a poor communication technique in this type of forum.
  23. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    What exactly do you think is going on George?
  24. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Actually, George, I imagine you could debate your list ad-infinitum, so let me propose a new criteria for discussion:

    Which items on your list do not have a reasonable alternative explanation, based on our existing understanding of the world?

    Using Occam's razor here. Do not introduce new entities unnecessarily. If your "evidence" can be explained without "chemtrails", then we should by default go with that explanation - as it does not introduce new entities.

    For example: #1 - the rise in the background level of stratospheric aerosols is possibly from volcanoes, and/or pollution.
    #4 - Unidentified aircraft are possibly military.

    I've been over your list, and I can't immediately see any that pass that test. Are there any?

    Because if not, I could form an equally valid list about robot cats.
  25. Spongebob

    Spongebob Active Member

    1. Is thereevidence of particulate or aerosols in the atmosphere which are unaccounted forby any source identified by Atmospheric Scientists? . . . No


  26. Pogopoint99

    Pogopoint99 Senior Member

    28. Is there evidence of chemtrails?... No.
  27. firepilot

    firepilot Senior Member

    Well I think we have put to rest #1, as not being true.

    Maybe, maybe not, but in any case, it is not evidence of an aircraft spraying program.
  28. SR1419

    SR1419 Senior Member

    George said:

    "did they take into account that someone may be intentionally geo-engineering . . . is that not a real possibility"

    No, it is (IMHO) not a real possibility that they could intentionally geo-engineer the climate to such an extent as to effect the rate of warming without it being widely known...

    Simply the logistics involved over a global scale would not allow for absolute secrecy over years..or according to theorists- decades now...

    Moreover, if these trails in the sky that people decry in fear were somehow not normal or unexpected...wouldn't some atmospheric scientist...somewhere in the world point that out?

    How come in all the years of this discussion- not single atmospheric scientist - any where in the world- has agreed that these trails are suspicious?
  29. George B

    George B Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member Staff Member

    Of course they do but NOAA is obviously aware of volcanoes and the rate of eruption . . . they still cannot explain the total increase in the aerosols and change in rate of global warming . . .
  30. George B

    George B Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member Staff Member

    1) It is not readily apparent if natural particulates are used at concentrations that do not greatly exceed normal spikes in concentrations . . . there are few if no high altitude monitoring programs that would catch such increases . . .
    2) If my theories are correct the persons and institutions accomplishing such an injection program have the mental power and resources to be very, very covert and yes for decades if necessary . . .
  31. George B

    George B Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member Staff Member

    The point is there is not direct concrete evidence that an injection program is ongoing so advocates like myself have to rely on circumstantial evidence coupled with history, capacity, opportunity, and motive . . .
  32. George B

    George B Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member Staff Member

    I think there is a program of some type in operation . . . it is being accomplished by some of the most covert minded and intelligent people the world has produced and they will not be easily discovered or will they admit their operations . . . until they are ready to do so . . .
  33. George B

    George B Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member Staff Member

    That is your opinion not mine . . . the type of evidence and the quality of the evidence is the question . . . what you will not accept others do and will . . .
  34. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Point to some evidence that does not have a reasonable alternate explanation, then we can talk.
  35. Pogopoint99

    Pogopoint99 Senior Member

    No. That's not an opinion, it's a fact. Apparently you agree...

    Those are your words, aren’t they?

    But George, you're not offering evidence, you're speculating.
  36. George B

    George B Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member Staff Member

    Hmmm . . . I need to think about your rules of engagement . . . I am not sure they are valid in a court of law or a debate . . . Occam's razor may be valid when one can control the environment of investigation within the hard sciences and then check all identified variables by a process of elimination . . .the biosphere, human history, behavior, politics, is very complex and I think it is possible the rules may be bit too restrictive . . .

    1) No one had suggested a conspiracy to use robot cats to accomplish anything . . .
    2) Unidentified aircraft are also possibly foreign craft allowed access under international treaty . . .

    I have to run now I will return tomorrow and hope to continue if you will allow . . .
  37. George B

    George B Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member Staff Member

    I don't have time right now . .. However, circumstantial evidence is used in the courts of this country and many others . . . it is a form of evidence based on inference. . .I feel I can prove that there is a set of such evidence available in the case of the Chemtrail Conspiracy . . .
  38. George B

    George B Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member Staff Member

    Almost anything can have a reasonable alternate explanation . . .
  39. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    I am a robot cat advocate - I believe in a autofeline spy program!

    these are some of the reasons I believe there is an autofeline program in place and or a robot cat Conspiracy . . .

    Checklist

    1. Is thereevidence of cats in my neighborhood which are unaccounted for by any source whatsoever . . . Yes
    2. Is there evidence suggesting that something has changed the neighborhood? . . . Yes
    3. Is there evidence of unaccounted budget and mechanisms to allocate, spend and manage projects without the public's knowledge or consent? . . . Yes
    4. Are there unidentified cats that walk around which the public has no information about their mission,goals, path, attitude or purpose? . . . Yes
    5. Do these unidentified cats sometime stare intently at me and other people? . . . Yes
    6. Are there whistleblowers who have indicated that a covert surveillance program is ongoing?. . . Yes
    7. Are there in existence technology to accomplish a program of developing robot available to accomplish such a mission? . . . Yes
    8. Has there been sufficient time from the development of technology and motive for robot cats programs to see them fully tested, deployed, and operational? . . . Yes
    9. Are there sufficient robot parts readily available to accomplish such a program? . . . Yes
    10. Is there history of pre-existing or similar use of robots by the military?. . . Yes
    11. Is there sufficient process and infrastructure to maintain secrecy and covertoperations? . . . Yes
    12. Is there a history of operational research regarding the use of robots for surveillance . . .Yes
    13. Are there Local, National, and Global motives toengage in an robot cat surveillance program? . . . Yes
    14. Are the motives for such programs and the technology and procedures for their implementations being discussed in scientific and political organizations worldwide? . . . Yes
    15. Are there national and international laws, regulations, treaties, andorganizations available ready to facilitate and not eliminate such surveillance programs? . . .Yes
    16. Are there any monitoring programs where data isavailable to the public that eliminates the possibility of the existence ofsuch a surveillance program? . . . No
    17. Is there any evidence other than official announcements from Governmental and Political sources that robot cats don't exist? . . . No
    18. Is there a small yet vocal group of people who insist that such a program exists? . . . Yes, although admittedly we are smaller than chemtrailers.
    19. Is there a history of unexplained substances which have been documented that have been discovered on my lawn? . . .Yes
    20. Have the rates of small dead animals associated with cats continually risen in my yard? . . .Yes
    21. Has there been asteady increase in the number of odd acting cats observed by people and reported as unusual to their memory? . . . Yes
    22. Has the federal givernemt as well as similar organizations inthe UK invested significant budget and effort in soliciting the public's helpto identify and report certain animals? . . . Yes
    23. Has any practical cat mitigation procedures or technology been invested in,deployed, installed or becomeoperational? . . . No
    24. Have utilized implantable microchips in an effort to track the locations of real cats? . . . Yes
    25. Has DARPA and other organizations presented significantresearch that robot animals could significanly alter future spy operations? . . .Yes
    26. Are governments capable of initiating,implementing, maintaining, and coveringup programs which have been proven to be against the best interest to thehealth and welfare of their citizens? . . .Yes
    27. Do you have any reason to believe some type of surveillance program using robot cats has not, is not, or will not beimplemented ?. . . No

    I rest my case!!!!

    Now how is your list any better than mine?
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  40. Pogopoint99

    Pogopoint99 Senior Member

    It seems to me a conclusion based on inference is only useful if all other possibilities have been eliminated.

    Can you think of sources of atmospheric aerosol that do not involve a secret geoengineering program? Have you eliminated all those other sources as reasons for the increase?
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