Homeopathy ER
- Thread starter firepilot
- Start date
Leifer
Senior Member.
Yes, it is the "memory of the water" that makes the homeopathic tincture work.
If that's the case, then if using "old water"...has the memory of dinosaur poo as well.
Using "new water", aka distilled water....it has the memory of being distilled, and all the possible "molecule" contamination....even from the glass vessel from which it was distilled from.
And in those dilutions, that glass was from what quarry ?
If that's the case, then if using "old water"...has the memory of dinosaur poo as well.
Using "new water", aka distilled water....it has the memory of being distilled, and all the possible "molecule" contamination....even from the glass vessel from which it was distilled from.
And in those dilutions, that glass was from what quarry ?
Leifer
Senior Member.
For example...Oscillococcinum, marketed by Boiron....has marketed US$15 million per year in the U.S to cure the symptoms of the flu...by people buying nothing but a drip of water, into a sugar pill (per it's 200c dilution).
But what about the claims that it works ?? Well, first of all, most people who claim to have "the flu", actually do not have it....they have the common cold (Rhinovirus) and not the" flu". And if the symptoms of the cold normally clear up in 48 hours without any medication whatsoever, then by taking the pill and it then symptoms clears up in 48 hours......then that is the normal period of recovery from the common cold anyways....and cannot be attributed to the Oscillococcinum homeo remedy.
But what about the claims that it works ?? Well, first of all, most people who claim to have "the flu", actually do not have it....they have the common cold (Rhinovirus) and not the" flu". And if the symptoms of the cold normally clear up in 48 hours without any medication whatsoever, then by taking the pill and it then symptoms clears up in 48 hours......then that is the normal period of recovery from the common cold anyways....and cannot be attributed to the Oscillococcinum homeo remedy.
Leifer
Senior Member.
Oh this is good...in my online discussion with homeopaths and patients...they demanded that I read a book from from a Jacob I. Mirman, MD. ....or be banned as a troll from their site/forum, even though the book is not available.
Turns out, even he has little or no knowledge as to how such minute dilutions work...during an open discussion on the http://www.quackwatch.com/ forum.
Here is Dr Mirman's own site recount of the exchange.... (can you believe he posted it ?)
Seems like more bunk is being attributed to "nano" particles.....again, but this time for unverified health and profit.
Turns out, even he has little or no knowledge as to how such minute dilutions work...during an open discussion on the http://www.quackwatch.com/ forum.
Here is Dr Mirman's own site recount of the exchange.... (can you believe he posted it ?)
Dr. Mirman said:
Seems like more bunk is being attributed to "nano" particles.....again, but this time for unverified health and profit.
Leifer
Senior Member.
The preparation (of Oscillococcinum to treat the flu) is derived from duck liver and heart, diluted to 200C—a ratio of one part duck offal to 100200 parts water.
This is such a high dilution that the final product likely contains not a single molecule of the original liver.
It's Vegan !!
(I'm not a vegan, but my girlfriend is. So technically, I could dilute some beef stock in the veggie chilli I'm cooking, 10^23...and she could still ingest it, with no worries.)
mmmmm....beefy......
This is such a high dilution that the final product likely contains not a single molecule of the original liver.
It's Vegan !!
(I'm not a vegan, but my girlfriend is. So technically, I could dilute some beef stock in the veggie chilli I'm cooking, 10^23...and she could still ingest it, with no worries.)
mmmmm....beefy......
1 in 100^200 is a number so small it is totally beyond the comprehension of, well, anyone. Most people don't really understand what a trillion is.
100^200 is 10^400
The number of atoms in the universe is 1 in 10^80, you can't even compare it to the universe. It's like if you take the entire universe where every atom is a tiny scale model of the universe itself, and each atom in that universe is a tiny scale model of the universe, and each atom in that universe is a tiny scale model of the universe, and each atom in that universe is a tiny scale model of the universe, then it's like one molecule in the tiniest universe. Which doesn't make any sense to anyone.
So you can't really explain it to them. Best stick to "literally more diluted than a drop in the entire world's ocean".
100^200 is 10^400
The number of atoms in the universe is 1 in 10^80, you can't even compare it to the universe. It's like if you take the entire universe where every atom is a tiny scale model of the universe itself, and each atom in that universe is a tiny scale model of the universe, and each atom in that universe is a tiny scale model of the universe, and each atom in that universe is a tiny scale model of the universe, then it's like one molecule in the tiniest universe. Which doesn't make any sense to anyone.
So you can't really explain it to them. Best stick to "literally more diluted than a drop in the entire world's ocean".
Leifer
Senior Member.
As expected, I am on the road to being kicked off a homeopathy forum, for asking how such dilutions work. I was polite too.
Politeness never guarantees a captive audience, as seen here and elsewhere.
The confounding part is when being me being told to seek various books and literature for answers, when in fact those books admitted they had no real explanation for my questions.
...nor could the patients or "doctors" on the forum explain it either.
When quoting the very documents' contradictory "unscientific" opinions....I was being viewed as a nuisance.
In fact, the books/literature recommended, were mere pamphlets or blogs. When read (read most)....all of them stopped short of explaining how the serial dilutions' and succession/ponentiation (shaking of a substance severely diluted in water) actually worked....except for miraculous patient's improvement. Most of the literature states it "must work", based on selected successes......usually in the form of, (simplified) 'the patient was experiencing a fever and nothing had worked so far. But then taking the Homeopathic medicine, the fever went away.'
Most went on to say that the actual process is not fully understood.
http://www.drdooley.net/Book.pdf
http://www.bookonhealing.com/the-book/37-the-book/90-the-book.html
http://hpathy.com/scientific-research/
Yes, I know I am barking up a tree with no ears, and that logic is not in it's chlorophyll.
It's another interesting venture into people's beliefs, and their willingness to believe a "non-pharma" "non-corperate" remedy that has little or no science backing it.
Politeness never guarantees a captive audience, as seen here and elsewhere.
The confounding part is when being me being told to seek various books and literature for answers, when in fact those books admitted they had no real explanation for my questions.
...nor could the patients or "doctors" on the forum explain it either.
When quoting the very documents' contradictory "unscientific" opinions....I was being viewed as a nuisance.
In fact, the books/literature recommended, were mere pamphlets or blogs. When read (read most)....all of them stopped short of explaining how the serial dilutions' and succession/ponentiation (shaking of a substance severely diluted in water) actually worked....except for miraculous patient's improvement. Most of the literature states it "must work", based on selected successes......usually in the form of, (simplified) 'the patient was experiencing a fever and nothing had worked so far. But then taking the Homeopathic medicine, the fever went away.'
Most went on to say that the actual process is not fully understood.
http://www.drdooley.net/Book.pdf
http://www.bookonhealing.com/the-book/37-the-book/90-the-book.html
http://hpathy.com/scientific-research/
Yes, I know I am barking up a tree with no ears, and that logic is not in it's chlorophyll.
It's another interesting venture into people's beliefs, and their willingness to believe a "non-pharma" "non-corperate" remedy that has little or no science backing it.
Leifer
Senior Member.
I find this an interesting teenage classroom science experiment....being able to cull (scale) all the universes' atoms in a 10 beaker (or so) demonstration....with water and some red dye..
http://www.nanooze.org/english/articles/article4_howbigisananometer.html
Leifer
Senior Member.
Here, seems to be the newest explanation of why water can retain memory. Though they won't use the term "memory", they now use the term, "water can hold electrical energy"....through EMF excitation.
http://hpathy.com/scientific-research/water-the-magic-liquid-retaining-electrical-energy/
If I were a betting man, the "references" quoted, were leaned to a certain slant...being that 4 of 5 references were from the author himself, and the fifth from a 1946 book.
Let's not poo-poo a book, but instead let's instead poo poo a simple description of water ionization, and attributing it to homeopathy's abilities to cure ailments/disease.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water
http://hpathy.com/scientific-research/water-the-magic-liquid-retaining-electrical-energy/
If I were a betting man, the "references" quoted, were leaned to a certain slant...being that 4 of 5 references were from the author himself, and the fifth from a 1946 book.
Let's not poo-poo a book, but instead let's instead poo poo a simple description of water ionization, and attributing it to homeopathy's abilities to cure ailments/disease.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water
Alhazred The Sane
Senior Member.
That Doctor Fart bloke, he's quite mad. Bonkers in fact. Which is odd, most of the homeopaths I've encountered are quite reasonable people, even though they believe this weird stuff.
Leifer
Senior Member.
on a recent paper,.....
(less-bold texts. are replies by me, in the forum)
The extreme dilution to have a noticeable effect, assumes that we are living a sterile environment....otherwise we are normally ingesting all sorts of molecules, from car exhaust, to pollen, to dirt dust..
(less-bold texts. are replies by me, in the forum)
The extreme dilution to have a noticeable effect, assumes that we are living a sterile environment....otherwise we are normally ingesting all sorts of molecules, from car exhaust, to pollen, to dirt dust..
Leifer
Senior Member.
Many thanks for posting the link!
Here is a transcript, as some of the dialog is a little hard to make out:
From: "That Mitchell and Webb Look: Homeopathic A&E"
Scene one: An emergency room in a hospital
Doctor: What have we got?
Nurse: Okay, broken arm, suspected internal injuries, severe contusions to the ear.
Doctor: We're going to have to move fast, bring me a solution of Arnica Montana, Stat!
Nurse: Strength?
Doctor: One part in a million.
Nurse: Are you sure? It looks serious.
Doctor: You're right, we need to strengthen the dose - one part in ten million.
Nurse: Coming doctor!
Specialist: What do we have here?
Doctor: Nothing we can't handle. Get me some Wolfsbane, also known as Monkshood, in here!
And a whole tray of flower remedies!
Specialist: Ohhh, his chakras are fading. What we need are some crystals.
Doctor: Nurse, fetch me some Purple Tizi Quartz
Specialist: (Frowns)
Doctor: Damn it you're right. Make that Aquamarine Quartz!
Specialist: Good call.
Doctor: Okay, he's stabalizing. Now, does anyone know what sort of car hit him?
Nurse: Blue Ford Mondeo apparently.
Doctor: Right, now get be a bit of Blue Ford Mondeo, put it in water, shake it,
dilute it, shake it again, dilute it again, do some more shaking,
dilute it some more, and put three drops on his tongue. If that doesn't cure
him, I don't know what will.
Specialist: You have to look at this Simon.
Doctor: What is it?
Specialist: I don't think this poor chap's got long to live.
Doctor: Why not?
Specialist: (holding the patient's hand up) His lifeline - very short.
(picking up a newspaper) His horoscope's not too clever either:
"Sagittarious. Brace yourself for a surprise, things are about to change
for you."
Doctor: They certainly are, unless.... Wait!
Specialist: What?
Doctor: We can try drawing a bit more lifeline on with biro (ballpoint pen).
Specialist: Do you think it will work?
Doctor: Have you got a better idea? Let's see what happens.
Patient: (groans and dies)
Doctor: (sighs) Damn it! Time of death - three thirty four....ish
Scene Two: A bar
Specialist: Tough day, hey?
Doctor: I just can't stand losing them.
Specialist: It happens.
Doctor: I don't know. Sometimes I think that a trace solution of Deadly Nightshade,
or a statistically negligible quantity of Arsenic just ... isn't enough.
Specialist: That's crazy talk Simon. Okay, so you kill the odd patient with cancer or
heart disease, or bronchitis, flu, chicken pox, or measles, but, when
someone comes in with a vague sense of unease, or a touch of the nerves,
or just more money than sense, you'll be there for them. A bottle of
basically just water in one hand, a huge invoice in the other.
Doctor: I suppose you're right.
Specialist: Here, another drink?
Doctor: I need one.
Specialist: (to the bartender) Excuse me! Two more homeopathic lagers please.
Doctor: (taking a sip) Whoa! That's strong stuff.
Snafu
New Member
I had a long discussion with a friend about homeopathy and why the science behind it was wrong. He linked me a paper that studied that actual process of succussion used by homeopaths. THe results were rather intriguing. Apparently there is something in the process that means that the actual concentrations are higher than expected. I'm trying to find the conversation on his timeline so I can link to the paper but it may take a bit. Either way though, even if the process they use for dilution is flawed then it still means that the basis premise of homeopathy is false because what they say is more dilute is, in fact not. A reasonable follow up to the paper would have been to make two serial dilutions, one via normal accepted laboratory techniques and another using the magic wand tapping thing that the homeopaths use and to measure any difference.
I think this is the link to the actual paper http://www.homeopathy.org/files/HomeopathyandNanoparticle.pdf
and this was my response to my friend,
"it appears, from reading that theexperimenter bought several bottles of 'medicines' mixed themtogether and carried out a procedure to result in an increase inconcentration by a factor of 500. If this doesn't increase theexpected detection rate, then I don't know what will. Even then, weare told, “[FONT=Times-Roman, serif]onlya single nanoparticle or[/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=Times-Roman, serif]alarge aggregate is seen” . [/FONT][FONT=Times-Roman, serif]Thekey point, for me, is the findings that the actual process used tomake the dilutions is flawed, leading to artificially highconcentrations of substance. So we have here a paper that makes asurprising discovery that substances are detected where none shouldreally exist and then explains this in terms of a methodologicalfailure in the methods that homeopaths use during dilution. It's agood paper but makes no contribution to the effect of homeopathicremedies other than the fact that quoted dilutions are, in fact,false."
Oh, and I also did some maths at that time regarding 200C dilutions. Assuming you start with a standard 1M solution then a 200C dilution will give you 1 molecule of active ingredient per every 10^952 molecules of water. Don't even ask me to try and explain how big that number is.[/FONT]
I think this is the link to the actual paper http://www.homeopathy.org/files/HomeopathyandNanoparticle.pdf
and this was my response to my friend,
"it appears, from reading that theexperimenter bought several bottles of 'medicines' mixed themtogether and carried out a procedure to result in an increase inconcentration by a factor of 500. If this doesn't increase theexpected detection rate, then I don't know what will. Even then, weare told, “[FONT=Times-Roman, serif]onlya single nanoparticle or[/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=Times-Roman, serif]alarge aggregate is seen” . [/FONT][FONT=Times-Roman, serif]Thekey point, for me, is the findings that the actual process used tomake the dilutions is flawed, leading to artificially highconcentrations of substance. So we have here a paper that makes asurprising discovery that substances are detected where none shouldreally exist and then explains this in terms of a methodologicalfailure in the methods that homeopaths use during dilution. It's agood paper but makes no contribution to the effect of homeopathicremedies other than the fact that quoted dilutions are, in fact,false."
Oh, and I also did some maths at that time regarding 200C dilutions. Assuming you start with a standard 1M solution then a 200C dilution will give you 1 molecule of active ingredient per every 10^952 molecules of water. Don't even ask me to try and explain how big that number is.[/FONT]
HappyMonday
Moderator
Recommend Ben Goldacre's book Bad Science on the subject of homeopathic quackery, amongst other forms. Great writer.
http://www.badscience.net/
http://www.badscience.net/
Leifer
Senior Member.
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