Havana Syndrome: "Sonic Attacks" at the US Embassy in Cuba - Mass Hysteria?

[John J.]

Their symptoms sound a hell of a lot worse than stress. The woman who was injured in Tbilisi had holes in her inner ear canal, and two surgeries put metal plates in her skull. The victims describe projectile vomiting, passing out, and never being the same again. They also say their electronics were affected at the same time, which suggests high power microwaves rather than ultrasound.

Maybe the incision was done by an ENT/ maxillo-facial team, which might square with the reported symptoms and findings
(regardless of cause).

The stapled incision in the photo doesn't look like it has been done for the purpose of inserting a metal plate into the skull-
-that normally happens due to a need for cranioplasty because of direct, severe damage or malformation to an area of skull that needs to be replaced, or sometimes following decompressive craniectomy if the removed bone cannot be returned for any reason.

Decompressive craniectomy involves removing an area of skull to allow a swelling brain more "freedom" to swell without an increase in intracranial pressure; it's a serious procedure used for acute life-threatening conditions.

I think cranioplasty (or craniectomy) is very unlikely here;
(1) small size of incision (2) location (3) the patient looks far too well. Awake, little bruising or swelling. Staples indicate that the op. was done in approx. the past week or so, and she's got too much hair to have had post-trauma neurosurgery or cranioplasty IMHO.

Maxillo-facial surgeons use "mini plates" that resemble tiny Meccano /Erector Set struts to keep pieces of bone in place while they fuse and heal (maybe used for the woman in the photo, we can't tell),
but they're not what most people mean when talking about someone having a metal plate in their skull.

No criticism of Agent K is intended, I expect an earlier reporter or commentator either didn't know the difference and/or went with the dramatic "metal plate in skull" narrative which implies acute injury.

(Of course, to the sufferer, any inner-ear illness or damage, and any surgery, must feel very acute indeed).


Cleveland Clinic patient information on cranioplasty here, https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/treatments/24924-cranioplasty
last reviewed 18/04/2023, Wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cranioplasty (not a very good article IMHO, too much linkage with trepanation).

Edited to add: Currently sceptical about microwave explanations; they often seem to ignore the inverse square law and have an unconvincing mixture of highly focal (inner ear, no pinna/ facial burning, no eye damage, no burns to mucous membranes) and distributed (nearby electronic devices malfunction) effects.

 

[deirdre]

and she's got too much hair to have had post-trauma neurosurgery or cranioplasty IMHO.

it is strange they wouldnt have shaved an inch before cutting her. her earlobe looks a bit mangled too.

just before Agent's K photo we see here with a bandaid on her forehead. ??
(i'm not dismissing what she is dealing with regardless of cause, just it is weird they wouldnt have shaved an inch. maybe she's still stationed in europe somewhere, and that's how they do it there?

 

[Rationalman]

I have this one and recommend it.

Havana Syndrome: Mass Psychogenic Illness and the Real Story Behind the Embassy Mystery and Hysteria Paperback – March 20, 2020​

 

[FatPhil]

it is strange they wouldnt have shaved an inch before cutting her. her earlobe looks a bit mangled too.

just before Agent's K photo we see here with a bandaid on her forehead. ??
(i'm not dismissing what she is dealing with regardless of cause, just it is weird they wouldnt have shaved an inch. maybe she's still stationed in europe somewhere, and that's how they do it there?

Why did they give her highlights too, was this cosmetic surgery?
Less subtly - are we even sure these are even the same woman? The latter photo screams "stock" to me.

 

[jarlrmai]

The 1st photo looks like something a medical photographer might take or a selfie possibly. The latter photo I cannot see a medical need for the photo and taking a non clinically required picture of someone asleep in a medical bed unaware is unethical. It doesn't look to be a cell phone looks like a photo taken with a wider aperture lens on a larger sensor camera with natural shallow DoF. The gown does seemingly match though and reverse image searching does not reveal any other sources so far.

 

[jarlrmai]

The ECG electrode placement looks like it's possibly right for RA/LA (right/left arm) placement but I am not clinical, is is based on some googling for ECG electrode placement for women. Someone experienced in ECG placement for monitoring might be able to comment.

 

[JWrightBrain]

What about their inner ears? Seems like a more obvious place to look.

Also, I've been reading about the limitations of MRI and other scans for diagnosing joint pain. They'll detect all sorts of degeneration, but it doesn't mean it's causing the pain, since many people with similar scans don't have pain.

They did test hearing and the vestibular system...

Auditory
There were no statistically significant differences between the AHI vs control groups or the AHI 1 vs AHI 2 vs control groups in pure tone thresholds (250-8000 Hz) for the worse hearing ear (eFigure 1A in Supplement 1), auditory brainstem response latencies (eFigure 1B in Supplement 1), or frequency following response characteristics. Three auditory processing tests survived within-test multiplicity adjustment (eTable 9A and eFigure 1C in Supplement 1): duration pattern sequence of the right ear (AHI: median, 29.0 [IQR, 27.0-30.0] vs controls: median, 30.0 [IQR, 29.0-30.0]; P = .01) and left ear (AHI: median, 29.0 [IQR, 27.0-30.0] vs controls: median, 30.0 [IQR, 29.0-30.0]; P = .002); gaps in noise of the right ear (AHI: median, 42.0 [IQR, 37.0-44.0] vs controls: median, 44.0 [IQR, 41.0-46.0]; P = .03) and left ear (AHI: median, 40.0 [IQR, 35.0-44.0] vs controls: median, 43.0 [IQR, 39.3-46.8]; P = .002); and SCAN auditory figure ground (AHI: median, 10.0 [IQR, 8.0-11.0] vs controls: median, 10.0 [IQR, 10.0-12.0]; P = .04). The differences in the overall profile of hearing loss in each group were not statistically significant (eFigure 1A in Supplement 1). When compared with normative data, reduced performance on tests of auditory processing occurred at the same rate across groups, except for the gaps in noise test for the right ear where 15% of the AHI group had reduced performance compared with 0% of the control participants, and 27% of the AHI 2 group had reduced performance compared with 3% of the AHI 1 group (eFigure 2, eTables 9-10 in Supplement 1).

Ocular Motor and Vestibular
There were no statistically significant differences between participants with AHIs and control participants or between individuals in the AHI 1 and AHI 2 groups for any vestibular variable or for each composite vestibular severity score (rotational, otolith, vestibular) (eTables 11-14 and eFigures 3-5 in Supplement 1). Only 4 ocular motor variables (4.8%) survived within-test multiplicity adjustment (eTable 11A and eFigure 3A in Supplement 1); low-frequency (0.1 Hz) smooth pursuit latency (AHI: median, 260 ms [IQR, 210.0-330.0] vs controls: median, 225 ms [IQR, 190.0-270.0]; P = .04) and saccadic pursuit (AHI: median, 13.5% [IQR, 6.3%-25.2%] vs controls: median, 7.7% [IQR, 3.0%-13.0%]; P = .03), motor response latency for leftward target displacements (AHI: median, 0.48 seconds [IQR, 0.40-0.57] vs controls: median, 0.40 seconds [IQR, 0.35-0.49]; P = .03), and vertical saccadic peak eye velocity area (AHI: median, 9240 degrees [IQR, 8606-10 034] vs controls: median, 10 049 degrees [IQR, 9344-10 612]; P = .006).

Jama Network
Clinical, Biomarker, and Research Tests Among US Government Personnel and Their Family Members Involved in Anomalous Health Incidents
March 18,2024
Link to the paper cited: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/ja...ign=ftm_links&utm_content=tfl&utm_term=031824

 

[Mendel]

The Havana syndrome dates back to at least 2016. The document just proves that unit 29155 that's known for poisoning people was also developing a nonlethal acoustic weapon.

trying to develop

if the Havana syndrome predates this document, the capabilities should be actual, not potential, if that apparatus caused the syndrome.

 

[deirdre]

Why did they give her highlights too,

they didn't give her highlights. i can see the highlights in the bandaid photo.

 

[Ann K]

Why did they give her highlights too, was this cosmetic surgery?

The position of the sutures screams "ordinary face-lift" to me. As for the strange ear lobe, might that just be caused by a past accident, perhaps one in which an earring was torn out?

 

[jarlrmai]

The position of the sutures screams "ordinary face-lift" to me. As for the strange ear lobe, might that just be caused by a past accident, perhaps one in which an earring was torn out?

When I reverse image searched a lot of facelift surgery photos came up.

 

[JMartJr]

On the earlobe question -- sometimes they are just weird. One of mine looks like I have had it pierced and the earring fell out -- allowing me to tell my kids that before becoming a father I had had a career as a pirate -- admittedly less prominent than the unusual shape of the earlobe pictured above There . The cartilage of that ear is also weird, very jagged across the top edge, due to nothing other than "it just grew that way.

Ears. like other features, are subject to unusual conformations, whether congenitally or due to trauma. A weird earlobe may or may not have anything to do with the surgery, or the purported attack.

 

[DavidB66]

I yield to no-one in my suspicion of Putin's Russia, but do the new 'revelations' show anything specific about Russian use of directed energy weapons against US embassies, etc? If I understand it correctly, Russian intelligence agents have been identified in the vicinity of various US and allied properties, but doesn't that just come into the category of bears in the woods? Even if the agents were seen with some suspicious equipment, isn't it more likely that it was for the purposes of information gathering?

However, there may be some overlap between the two purposes. Some old reports suggest that microwave technology can be used for spying:

That does not mean that it hasn't been used; the US government certainly used it against the Russians. More recently, Nasa technology has been suggested as a method of extending it: in 2005, New Scientist reported that the US security services were using a space technology previously used to detect faint radio signals from space to eavesdrop on a room where the curtains had been pulled (which defeats the laser).

The system used a "horn antenna" to blast a beam of microwave energy at between 30GHz and 100GHz through a building wall: "If people are speaking inside the room, any flimsy surface, such as clothing, will be vibrating. This modulates the radio beam reflected from the surface," it reported. That could be amplified using the Nasa technology and analysed as before.

(Source: Guardian, 22 August 2013 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...inferred – yielding the original conversation. )

If sufficiently powerful equipment was used, maybe there would be some 'collateral damage' to personnel. But it does seem difficult to believe that powerful microwaves would not be quickly detected by counterintelligence officers.

 

[Mauro]

Some old reports suggest that microwave technology can be used for spying:

Indeed they can, a famous example is the "Great Seal Bug" (in 1945!), a passive listening device which needed to be illuminated with microwaves and which was planted in the office of the US ambassador in Moscow. The microwaves levels were too low to cause any harm, indeed, to avoid detection, they were probably kept at the minimum possible level.

The Thing, also known as the Great Seal bug, was one of the first covert listening devices (or "bugs") to use passive techniques to transmit an audio signal. It was concealed inside a gift given by the Soviet Union to W. Averell Harriman, the United States Ambassador to the Soviet Union, on August 4, 1945. Because it was passive, needing electromagnetic energy from an outside source to become energized and active, it is considered a predecessor of radio-frequency identification (RFID) technology

Replica of The Thing which contained a Soviet bugging device, on display at the NSA's National Cryptologic Museum

Content from External Source

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_(listening_device)

 

[AllTheQuestionsToday]

I haven't paid much attention to it, but I keep feeling this weird intersection of politics and science, or influencing opinion around validity of the topic. Politics like religion has no standing or authority to influence science.

What is it about Havana that is most implausible on the aggregate currently available evidence as well as official government statements?

 

[John J.]

it is strange they wouldnt have shaved an inch before cutting her. her earlobe looks a bit mangled too.

just before Agent's K photo we see here with a bandaid on her forehead. ??
(i'm not dismissing what she is dealing with regardless of cause, just it is weird they wouldnt have shaved an inch. maybe she's still stationed in europe somewhere, and that's how they do it there?

With the hair, there is a (very slowly implemented) trend to refrain from non-evidence-based shaving prior to some procedures. (Think of the indignities many expectant mothers faced in hospitals right up to the 70's, maybe later.)

Hair removal
1.2.4 Do not use hair removal routinely to reduce the risk of surgical site infection. [2008]
1.2.5 If hair has to be removed, use electric clippers with a single-use head on the day of surgery. Do not use razors for hair removal, because they increase the risk of surgical site infection. [2008]

Content from External Source

Surgical site infections: prevention and treatment
NICE guideline [NG125] 11 April 2019 updated 19 August 2020, (UK) National Institute for Health and Care Excellence
https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng125/chapter/Recommendations#preoperative-phase

I'd guess there's a lot of regional variation with perhaps less prosperous countries/ regions being more conservative (i.e. routine pre-operative shaving) but that's just a hunch.

But for a metal skull plate (not a max-fax mini-plate) to be inserted, you'd expect a sizeable area of the head to be shaved and antiseptic-prepped. Short-term cosmetic considerations would be irrelevant.

IIRC, US citizens with government connections who were seriously unwell/ were injured in less-developed bits of Europe/ adjacent areas like the Caucuses, or who were repatriated via Europe, often went first to a hospital (or at least some sort of well-resourced casualty reception unit) in the American airbase at Ramstein, Germany, where US norms would apply.
(I might have misremembered or be out-of-date about this, others here are probably better informed).

The ECG electrode placement looks like it's possibly right for RA/LA (right/left arm) placement

Yeah, I agree. Looks like a 5-lead set-up for ongoing cardiac monitoring.

A very minor point, but with continuous monitoring (as opposed to a 12-lead ECG) for a woman who is conscious/ sleeping normally and hasn't just had an acute cardiac episode, I would expect nursing staff to do her gown up.

taking a non clinically required picture of someone asleep in a medical bed unaware is unethical.

Totally agree, but we don't know she's asleep. She's probably consented (or even arranged) to being photographed, and there aren't any other patients/ staff in the picture.

Whether in a hospital/ clinic or not- and without casting aspersions on anyone's honesty, which we have no reason to doubt- the second photo looks a bit posed to me.

I yield to no-one in my suspicion of Putin's Russia, but do the new 'revelations' show anything specific about Russian use of directed energy weapons against US embassies, etc?

The current Moscow regime is certainly unpleasant enough to be implicated in attacks on, well, pretty much anyone they don't like, regardless of legality, location or considerations for anyone else affected.
The murder of Alexander Litvinenko with polonium 210, and the attempted murders of Sergei Skripal and daughter Yulia demonstrate this. The Skripal attackers recklessly discarded a vial of nerve agent disguised as a sealed branded fragrance; this was found and given to Dawn Sturgess, a woman otherwise unconnected to the case, who died after spraying it on her wrists.

Wikipedia articles re. the poisonings of Alexander Litvinenko, the Skripals and Dawn Sturgess
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvinenko, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Sergei_and_Yulia_Skripal, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Amesbury_poisonings

However, sending covert agents across the world to cause discomfort or even injury to (generally) relatively junior diplomatic staff, or even suspected US intelligence agents, must be questionable.
The risk of the Russian operatives- and their supposed new technology- being compromised, weighed against the benefits of hurting some US personnel- without "taking them out of the game"- seems high.
The Russian state is quite capable, and willing, to murder key opponents, but the use of novel directed energy weapons to distract or injure small numbers of essentially replaceable embassy staff, most of no great seniority, must be a questionable use of resources.

Most (perhaps all) of the US personnel who feel that they've been affected wouldn't be in a position to be armed when out and about AFAIK. Prosaically, if you wanted to disturb or hurt such individuals, there are numerous dark but plausibly deniable avenues that might be taken, some for just a few dollars and with little risk to your own agents if you're prepared to pay local "help", and without compromising any new technology.

 

[jarlrmai]

Totally agree, but we don't know she's asleep. She's probably consented (or even arranged) to being photographed, and there aren't any other patients/ staff in the picture.

Whether in a hospital/ clinic or not- and without casting aspersions on anyone's honesty, which we have no reason to doubt- the second photo looks a bit posed to me.

Yeah a photo like this has me questioning who took it and why.

 

[psikiwi]

Yeah a photo like this has me questioning who took it and why.

Along with when, relative to the 'events' in question, and specifically to the procedure (before/after).

 

[deirdre]

Yeah a photo like this has me questioning who took it and why.

it does look like a recreated pic specifically for the60 mins newsshow.

But she and her husband may have just been documenting everything related to her [havana injury] for lawsuit purposes. Lawyers usually tell you "document everything".

 

[Agent K]

The Insider editor Timur Olevsky says that the Havana syndrome is "Minor's syndrome," or Superior canal dehiscence syndrome. It sounds like what the woman had in Tbilisi.

Article:

Minor and his colleagues at Johns Hopkins developed an operation to correct the disorder. The surgery entails making an incision above the ear and then gently elevating the temporal lobe of the brain to reveal the superior canal, using fascia and bone to plug the canal hole, securing the opening in the skull with titanium plates and sewing the scalp back up.

“There was this whole bucket of patients, and we really didn’t understand what was wrong with them,” says Robert Jackler, MD, chair of otolaryngology at Stanford. “A lot of physicians thought they sounded mentally ill; they had such peculiar complaints. No one could figure out what was wrong.”

“In addition to being sent to a psychiatrist and told that he was imagining these things, which he clearly wasn’t, the patient was concerned that maybe he had multiple sclerosis or a neurological disease,” says Minor.

Source: https://stanmed.stanford.edu/discovering-the-inner-ear-disorder-superior-canal-dehiscence-syndrome-scds

Christo Grozev found GRU agents wherever there were attacks, including China, using the same investigative techniques that tracked GRU agents who followed Skripal and Navalny when they were poisoned.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plOBbi3YVRs&t=1545s

Olevsky and another editor, Roman Dobrokhotov, said that a tinfoil hat that covers the ears really would've protected them.

And that's why this weapon and Chinese spy balloons and perhaps drones with radar jammers are so effective, because pilots are embarrassed to report sightings, CIA agents are embarrassed to report symptoms, and the CIA director doesn't want to tell his top agents to wear tinfoil hats.

 

[deirdre]

The Insider editor Timur Olevsky says that the Havana syndrome is "Minor's syndrome," or Superior canal dehiscence syndrome. Were the patients diagnosed with it? Christo Grozev found GRU agents wherever there were attacks, including China, using the same investigative techniques that tracked GRU agents who followed Skripal and Navalny when they were poisoned.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plOBbi3YVRs&t=1545s

Article:

Use English. This is an English language site. Do not use other languages unless needed while discussing the translation of something.

Source: https://www.metabunk.org/threads/posting-guidelines.2064/

kudos on the timestamp embed, but it is useless if we dont speak...is that Russian? give us an english transcript

 

[Agent K]

Article:

Use English. This is an English language site. Do not use other languages unless needed while discussing the translation of something.

Source: https://www.metabunk.org/threads/posting-guidelines.2064/

kudos on the timestamp embed, but it is useless if we dont speak...is that Russian? give us an english transcript

I don't have time. Here's their article in English.

Article:

The Kirov Military Medical Academy in St. Petersburg, Russia is headed by the aforementioned GRU consultant Sergei Chepur, a specialist in cholinesterase inhibitors like Novichok.

But it is Chepur’s research work that presents the greatest cause for concern. Judging from his publications, Chepur is not only a specialist in biochemistry, but also in the effects of radiation on the brain. The Kirov Academy he heads is one of the few institutions in Russia that has studied Minor’s syndrome, the extremely rare phenomenon that just happened to befall embassy wife Joy in Tbilisi following her encounter with Albert Averyanov.

He [Averyanov] was tall, certainly taller than Joy’s neighbors and the Georgians she’d come to know in eight months of living in Dighomi, an upscale residential community in Tbilisi. He was young and thin and blonde and well-dressed... She raised her phone to photograph him. Joy took a picture of the car and its license plate as it pulled away... As a 6’2” young blonde, Albert was conspicuous in any crowd, let alone a tony suburb of Tbilisi.

Source: https://theins.ru/en/politics/270425

Georgians look like this

Albert Averyanov is in the middle

 

[deirdre]

Georgians look like this

Article:

7:57
the village actually is a very
7:58
multicultural place
8:00
there are lots of students from around
8:01
the world coming here to study

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17ZuTUXe00M

 

[JMartJr]

Christo Grozev found GRU agents wherever there were attacks

If you didn't find any Russian agents around US embassies and embassy personnel, THAT would be anomalous!

 

[Agent K]

If you didn't find any Russian agents around US embassies and embassy personnel, THAT would be anomalous!

Robert Bartholomew told Mick, "You got no incidents being recorded at the embassy itself. They were at one of two large hotels, mostly, and then at people's homes and in this one apartment complex."

And that was supposed to support his argument that it's psychogenic? Is the embassy itself protected from psychogenic illness? Or is it protected from microwave radiation that can be used to eavesdrop?


Source: https://youtu.be/xrQs-ZX-wv0?&t=979

 

[JMartJr]

And that was supposed to support his argument that it's psychogenic? Is the embassy itself protected from psychogenic illness? Or is it protected from microwave radiation that can be used to eavesdrop?

Or did people feel safer inside the embassy than they did in more exposed (less secured) locations elsewhere? Would they be more likely to hear the eerie insect noise at home, and correlate it with their symptoms, than within the embassy?

(Edit to clarify "exposed.")

 

[John J.]

The Insider editor Timur Olevsky says that the Havana syndrome is "Minor's syndrome," or Superior canal dehiscence syndrome. It sounds like what the woman had in Tbilisi.

Ah, thanks for that. So we have a possible underlying cause for maybe some of the more acute instances of "Havana Syndrome"
(i.e. superior canal dehiscence syndrome), and we know it occurs apparently spontaneously in people who are presumably not connected with overseas US embassies/ the CIA etc.

And it explains the sudden perception of loud, unpleasant sounds without the involvement of hypothetical sonic weapons.

The (extremely) localised damage to a discrete area of the superior canal, overlaid by other structures, rules out beamed energy devices used at a distance, at least in confirmed cases of superior canal dehiscence syndrome.

Incidentally; I thought dehiscence was specifically the parting of a previously-sutured (etc.) surgical incision. -I realise it has other meanings in botany. Thoughts from any surgeons/medics/ pathologists?

CIA director doesn't want to tell his top agents to wear tinfoil hats.

It's bad enough turning up at at a dead letter drop in an Aston Martin with Lea Seydoux on your arm; wear the tinfoil hat as well and young Ivan's sure to remember you from the Ambassador's reception.

 

[Scaramanga]

Just 2 days ago on the BBC web site....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-68706317

 

[JMartJr]

The Insider editor Timur Olevsky says that the Havana syndrome is "Minor's syndrome," or Superior canal dehiscence syndrome.

I think it worth stressing the difference between A minor syndrome and the condition called "Minor Syndrome" described by Lloyd B. Minor et al in 1998-- Agent K is aware of this, I am sure, and I am not remonstrating with the good Agent or anything of the sort! ^_^

However, one of the problems faced by victims of whatever caused these symptoms is feeling that they are being taken lightly and brushed aside. If anyone visiting this site misread that we'd called the symptoms "minor" that would be unfortunate. Just to clarify and hopefully prevent any future misunderstanding.

 

[tobigtofool]

There's no way Russia has a space gun that damages peoples brains.

A while ago I had a crippling pain in my rectum at 2 am and I went to the hospital and found out its a muscle cramp.

was I probed by aliens or am I just getting old.

Im with Mick's OP none of these symptoms seem beyond anything out of the ordinary aging process.

If anyone visiting this site misread that we'd called the symptoms "minor" that would be unfortunate. Just to clarify and hopefully prevent any future misunderstanding.

By ordinary I mean some people age and develop medical conditions, some don't, some had them and dont find out until they are fifty they have scoliosis.

Last few years I started getting tinnitus, I get ringing in my ear if I lay wrong sleeping, and it is LOUD.. is that because I am a spy? No of course not, nobody knows I am a spy. I keep that secret well.

 

[Mendel]

Just 2 days ago on the BBC web site....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-68706317

Go to the primary source. At the top of the BBC piece it says,

They may have been targeted by Russian sonic weaponry, according to a joint investigation by The Insider, Der Spiegel and CBS's 60 Minutes.

Content from External Source

That paragraph means that the BBC is just summarizing that investigation. It links to https://theins.ru/en/politics/270425 (note the site is registered in Russia).

I'm dissatisfied with it because the "connections" it proposes are on a QAnon level, and crucially still lack evidence that such a weapon is even possible or actually exists.

Article:

Greg Edgreen, a lieutenant colonel in the U.S. Army, set up the working group investigating Havana Syndrome for the Defense Intelligence Agency, or DIA, from 2020 to 2023. The role gave him access to classified intelligence compiled not just by the Pentagon, but by other agencies within the U.S. intelligence community. In response to this investigation, Edgreen told 60 Minutes: “If I'm wrong about Russia being behind anomalous health incidents, I will come onto your show. And I will eat my tie.”

Source: https://theins.ru/en/politics/270425

Pulling a Grusch here: "I could tell you, but it's classified."

Article:

Three days later, on October 15, Terentiev and Ezhov were joined by a third colleague, Danil Kapralov, a member of Unit 29155 with a medical background. Kapralov flew to Amsterdam. But booking data obtained by The Insider, 60 Minutes and Der Spiegel shows that on 15 October he checked in to the Starling Hotel Residence in Geneva and paid 3,000 Swiss francs (about $3,300) for his room through November 3.

Whatever Terentiev, Ezhov and Kapralov were in Western Europe to do, they clearly had to be done by that date, as all three purchased return tickets back to Moscow, each traveling from the point of arrival in Europe.

Taylor was knocked unconscious the next day, November 4.

Source: https://theins.ru/en/politics/270425

If the attack was during that time, there would be a connection; but it was not!

Article:

Originally limited to the expanse of Russia and Central Asia, by 2016 the course ran all the way from Moscow to Xi’an, an ancient city in China that once marked the easternmost end of the Silk Road. With legitimate sponsorship deals and celebrity offroad race car drivers — Vladimir Chagin, who holds the record for the most victories at the Dakar Rally, is director of Silk Way, and his number two is Frederic Lequien, the CEO of the FIA World Endurance Championship — the race covers a ground distance of nearly 4,400 miles. In other words, it’s a convenient conduit for moving people and hardware across the globe.

Source: https://theins.ru/en/politics/270425

"Across the globe" meaning "from Russia to China"? Why do they need a rally for that?

Article:

The State Department has walked a knife-edge in addressing that contingency. The Insider, 60 Minutes and Der Spiegel obtained a memo distributed to employees of the Tbilisi mission on December 29, 2021 — over two months after Joy’s attack. It references a task force responsible for coordinating response to AHIs and several pages of guidance on how to talk to children about the strange events, offering distinct advice for different age groups. For young kids who “don’t have enough life experience to understand some of the elements involved in complex, difficult topics like AHI,” the memo advises parents to catch their biases and limit the amount of information their children can access: “Don’t say things like ‘the Russians are trying to hurt or intimidate us’ or ‘if you hear a loud noise, you are probably going to feel dizzy and sick so make sure you get off the X, etc.’”

The implication here is that not only are AHIs real, but U.S. diplomats are all too aware of how they happen and who’s behind them.

Source: https://theins.ru/en/politics/270425

No, the implication here is that there's a nocebo effect that should be avoided by making unfounded claims to susceptible people. The Insider reverses the meaning of the actual evidence to make it fit the coverup theory.

Article:

Two CIA officers posted to Kyiv during that period of intense collaboration between U.S. and Ukrainian intelligence later experienced AHIs after being posted to new missions overseas. [...] Additionally, the wife of a third CIA officer who had served in Kyiv during the same critical time frame — roughly 2014 to 2017 — was hit in October 2021 in a cafe in London. She was treated locally in London and is also in the CIA.

Source: https://theins.ru/en/politics/270425

The article spends a long time expounding how much the CIA operation in Ukraine upset Russia, but then identifies only 2 of the personnel who were actually there as suffering from AHI ("being hit"). It appears to actually be coincidental.

The one thing the article makes a good case of is that some US diplomats were sometimes spied on by Russians. But to me, it fails to establish connections between that and the AHI.
Nor is it clear that the alleged weapon exists (if it is possible).

 

[Agent K]

Or did people feel safer inside the embassy than they did in more exposed (less secured) locations elsewhere? Would they be more likely to hear the eerie insect noise at home, and correlate it with their symptoms, than within the embassy?

(Edit to clarify "exposed.")

Or people feel safer at home and more stressed at work. Embassies have been bombed before.
Roman Dobrokhotov said that the attacks did not occur in buildings made of reinforced concrete because microwaves don't penetrate it, but they do penetrate brick buildings.

BOTH of the female victims in the CBS 60 Minutes report, "Carrie" and the woman in Tbilisi, experienced similar symptoms in a laundry room by the window. Coincidence?

 

[Agent K]

If you didn't find any Russian agents around US embassies and embassy personnel, THAT would be anomalous!

This was a handful of GRU agents from Unit 29155 of assassins and saboteurs, led by Col. Ivan Terentiev, who was awarded $1000 for an "acoustic weapon." Christo Grozev and The Insider know them like family. Their travel was synchronized with credible Havana syndrome accounts.

Article:

On October 11, a trio of seemingly unrelated Russian tourists began descending on Western Europe, all traveling under fake identities. All three were members of Unit 29155.
The most senior of them was Col. Ivan Terentiev, a deputy to unit commander Andrey Averyanov.
Three days later, on October 15, Terentiev and Ezhov were joined by a third colleague, Danil Kapralov, a member of Unit 29155 with a medical background. On 15 October he checked in to the Starling Hotel Residence in Geneva and paid 3,000 Swiss francs (about $3,300) for his room through November 3.

Whatever Terentiev, Ezhov and Kapralov were in Western Europe to do, they clearly had to be done by that date, as all three purchased return tickets back to Moscow, each traveling from the point of arrival in Europe.

Taylor was knocked unconscious the next day, November 4.

Source: https://theins.ru/en/politics/270425

In the above graphic, you may remember Alexander Mishkin as the doctor who poisoned the Skripals with Novichok.

 

[JMartJr]

BOTH of the female victims in the CBS 60 Minutes report, "Carrie" and the woman in Tbilisi, experienced similar symptoms in a laundry room by the window. Coincidence?

Yes? Why not?

There are a limited number of rooms in a house -- if you have more victims than you have rooms, you're going to have some that were in the same room. Don't know about where these folks lived, but there is no room in my house without a window, excluding closets. It would be hard not to be near one anywhere in the house, especially in a small room like the laundry room. But my house may not be similar to typical housing for embassy employees, I admit. I'm not sure we can get data on that...

Or people feel safer at home and more stressed at work. Embassies have been bombed before.

(I'm going from memory here, but can dig up the quote later if need be. It is from reading Baloh and Barthollemew's book on Havana Syndrome and psychogenic illness -- I believe Mick has conversations with Dr. Bartholomew up on his YT page. I might not be able to dig out the book until eclipse travel is complete mid next week, I really need to stop messing about on computers and go pack, flying out tomorrow! But anyway...)

It is my understanding that in Cuba at least, there was a practice of harassing US diplomats and such people by doing things like breaking into houses at night and moving stuff around, to say "We got into your house, you are not safe from us!" (or there was perceived to be such a practice, which is the same thing for our purposes as even false beliefs about stress-inducing events produce stress!)

Away from the embassy, you are away from embassy security, you are more vulnerable to that sort of stuff. Then suddenly you start noticing weird sounds and might wonder "What in the world are those ^%#&^ Cuban harassers doing to us now? And, I have a headache now, or feel a dizzy -- correlation is causation, right, because human brains work that way and love to make that assumption. And didn't I hear whasisname at work say something similar happened to them?" And then the ball is rolling. (Oversimplified and to the extent it reads flippantly because of that, I apologize.)

 

[JMartJr]

This was a handful of GRU agents from Unit 29155 of assassins and saboteurs, led by Col. Ivan Terentiev, who was awarded $1000 for an "acoustic weapon." Christo Grozev and The Insider know them like family. Their travel was synchronized with credible Havana syndrome accounts. Etc...

Thanks for posting that. Didn't want you to think I was ignoring your info there. I'll look at it next week, with interest.

IF I am wrong about the source of the illness these folks are experiencing, I would want to know I was wrong, so though I'm arguin' the other side I do appreciate the time and thought and effort you are putting into the thread. That everybody is!

 

[Agent K]

Ah, thanks for that. So we have a possible underlying cause for maybe some of the more acute instances of "Havana Syndrome"
(i.e. superior canal dehiscence syndrome), and we know it occurs apparently spontaneously in people who are presumably not connected with overseas US embassies/ the CIA etc.

And it explains the sudden perception of loud, unpleasant sounds without the involvement of hypothetical sonic weapons.

It's a very rare syndrome. Roman Dobrokhotov said it's one in a million, and that if you google "Minor's syndrome" in Russian, the top search result is The Kirov Military Medical Academy.

Article:

The Kirov Academy he heads is one of the few institutions in Russia that has studied Minor’s syndrome, the extremely rare phenomenon that just happened to befall embassy wife Joy in Tbilisi following her encounter with Albert Averyanov.

Source: https://theins.ru/en/politics/270425

Here's the search query: https://www.google.com/search?q=синдром+Минора
And the result: https://www.vmeda.org/otolaringolog...odyat-lechenie-paczientov-s-sindromom-minora/

 

[Agent K]

The Insider's editor and investigative journalist Roman Dobrokhotov said that out of a thousand people complaining of Havana syndrome symptoms, 90% had various illnesses like COVID, and dozens had the specific Havana syndrome symptoms of a very sudden heavy pressure in the ears and loss of balance sometimes accompanied by a strange deafening sound that seems to come from one direction like a window. It does not resemble other illnesses like poisonings that The Insider also investigates. This set of symptoms is specific, unlike migraines, fatigue, and insomnia.


Source: https://youtu.be/TBQAR2j1hgU?t=529

So, which patients were in the JAMA study? Would it have diagnosed Minor's syndrome?

Mick told Robert Bartholomew that Havana syndrome symptoms were vague and inconsistent, like Morgellons. Well, you could say the same about COVID-19: flu-like symptoms, severe for some, mild for others. The only relatively specific symptom is anosmia.

 

[John J.]

Mick told Robert Bartholomew that Havana syndrome symptoms were vague and inconsistent, like Morgellons. Well, you could say the same about COVID-19: flu-like symptoms, severe for some, mild for others. The only relatively specific symptom is anosmia.

Umh, don't agree with the comparison with COVID-19.
COVID-19 can be imaged (that's why it's described as a coronavirus, from its appearance) and has had its genome sequenced countless times. Reasonably effective testing kits have been developed and widely used, as we all know.

COVID-19 is real, Morgellons disease probably doesn't exist (as a condition with a common underlying physiological cause).
I guess the jury's still out on Havana syndrome, but at the mo. I'm persuaded by the US intelligence community's summary that it's unlikely to be caused by hostile action.
(That was before the recent Bellingcat/ 60 Minutes coverage though).

 

[Agent K]

Umh, don't agree with the comparison with COVID-19.
COVID-19 can be imaged (that's why it's described as a coronavirus, from its appearance) and has had its genome sequenced countless times. Reasonably effective testing kits have been developed and widely used, as we all know.

COVID-19 is real, Morgellons disease probably doesn't exist (as a condition with a common underlying physiological cause).
I guess the jury's still out on Havana syndrome, but at the mo. I'm persuaded by the US intelligence community's summary that it's unlikely to be caused by hostile action.
(That was before the recent Bellingcat/ 60 Minutes coverage though).

The argument was that a real disease should have consistent signs and symptoms, which is absolutely not true for COVID-19. What's consistent is the etiology, the SARS-CoV-2 virus, but symptoms vary from nothing to ARDS.

As far as imaging, can anyone image tinnitus? How about brain fog from long COVID? Well now apparently someone did!

Article:

In long COVID patients with brain fog (brain scan at right), dye injected into the bloodstream tends to leak into the brain (see colored speckles) more so than in people without brain fog (left).

Source: https://www.sciencenews.org/article/long-covid-brain-fog-blood-brain-barrier-damage

 

[Agent K]

Thanks for posting that. Didn't want you to think I was ignoring your info there. I'll look at it next week, with interest.

IF I am wrong about the source of the illness these folks are experiencing, I would want to know I was wrong, so though I'm arguin' the other side I do appreciate the time and thought and effort you are putting into the thread. That everybody is!

I'm saving the best for last.