Florida Contrails and Flight Tracking

scombrid

Senior Member.
There was no Cirrus clouds Just Contrails that spread out

Your "whiteout Christmas" photos include cirrus clouds. That big sheet of semi-translucent clouds is cirrostratus. Contrails enhance such clouds but those clouds exist with this type of weather system with or without contrails.

the sky started exactly as the top picture with blue skies and contrails as they continued all day leaving a total whiteout

The "whiteout" was advected in from the west. Contrails that formed over top of you were rapidly advected away on jetstream winds well in excess of 100kts. The broad "aged" contrails embedded in the cirrus layer were drifting over from the west.

Ive been in Florida for 20 years and only the past two years has it looked like this .

I've been in Florida for 10 years. The sky almost always looks like that when there is a front approaching. Reminds me of the sky ahead of the Groundhogs Day tornado outbreak that hit central Florida back in 2007.

I'll see if I can find some satellite photos of the day before the "Storm of the Century" in March 1993.
 

scombrid

Senior Member.
Whats funny is when the grid off the coast of Ca.last year which look like contrails I was told they were ship tracks ? Now trails are everywhere ? grid-off-ca-coast-7-20-2011.jpg

Ship tracks are condensation around diesel exhaust in a very stable moist marine layer at the surface. Contrails are ice at >30k feet (in the mid latitudes). There is a thread explaining ship tracks.
 

Belfrey

Senior Member.
Well I guess Im Blind and didnt see the contrails spread causing the overcast conditions ? I believe Iv heard the BBC calls them Contrail Cirrus Clouds ? Today No Contrails at all ? Plenty of cumulus clouds and even rain but not 1 trail ?

Persistent contrails are cirrus - and they can spread out and cause overcast - but they also often occur at the same time as natural cirrus. It's often hard to tell what started out as natural and what didn't, unless you keep your eyes on it for hours.

This morning in Gainesville we had heavy overcast of both natural and contrail cirrus. Then we had a thin line of strong storms move quickly through. This afternoon it was much clearer, with some light natural cirrus here and there but mostly blue skies with lots of persistent contrails streaking across.
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
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Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
Did you look to see what was upstream in the river of air that was ripping by up at the tropopause?

Exactly. How many chemtrail believers even realize that the sky above their heads isn't static, it generally forms many miles 'upstream', drifts over and heads down the river.
 
J

Joe

Guest
[...] people have trouble finding contrails every summer and resort to falsely claiming that those low altitude clouds formed by SLOW MOVING SHIPS are contrails. [...]

[...]

see:
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/65...cific-are-Geoengineering-quot-Chemtrails-quot
I would believe you Jay if they were east to west tracks but where do the North to South ships go ? Actually its quite easy to spot contrails all summer from satellite photos. Seems to be getting more and more CONTRAILS Jay ?
 
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J

Joe

Guest
Exactly. How many chemtrail believers even realize that the sky above their heads isn't static, it generally forms many miles 'upstream', drifts over and heads down the river.
Jay they are Contrails not Chemtrails .
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
I would believe you Jay if they were east to west tracks but where do the North to South ships go ??
I don't ask for belief, I show evidence. All one would have to do is google shipping lanes:

Global shipping.gif

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/01/global-shipping-map/
Wired said:
Scientists have come up with the first comprehensive map of global shipping routes based on actual itineraries. The team pieced together a year’s worth of travel itineraries from 16,693 cargo ships using data from LLoyd’s Register Fairplay and the Automatic Identification System, which tracks vessels using a VHF receiver and GPS

Probably the N/S tracks are between Asia and the Panama Canal. This is a great circle aviation map between Panama and Shanghai. A ship obviously wouldn't pass over land, but would track offshore along the US west coast.

great circle.gif

If you watch Mick's animations in the ship track thread, you will see that sometimes ship tracks will be advected south along the California coast, then south along Baja Mexico but at that point they get caught in the NE tradewinds and sent west back out over the Pacific.

Actually its quite easy to spot contrails all summer from satellite photos

The chemtrails are geoengineering crowd noticed the summer lull and put the ship track hoax out as a result. This has happened for over a decade. If it was "quite easy", they wouldn't have used that gambit for maintaining the hoax.

geoengineeringwatch said:
Some are wondering why there appears to be a let up in the daily spray assaults that we on the West coast are so used to. Don’t worry, they are still hard at it. This recent satellite photo makes clear what cannot be seen overhead on land.
http://www.geoengineeringwatch.org/massive-chemical-spraying-of-the-north-pacific/

I could show you a dozen others who noted the dearth of "chemtrails", and I'm sure you could find a dozen persistent contrails during summer on satellite images.

summer.jpg

The point is that the bunk promoters used people's ignorance of an explainable summer meteorological event to promote a hoax by mischaracterizing low altitude ship smoke stack tracks moving at 20 miles/hour with jet airliners making contrails. It was wrong for them to do that and seems to have added to your personal angst. They were informed of their error but nevertheless made a conscious choice to maintain it. At that point it becomes clear that they are intentionally lying to the public and are fully aware that they are doing so. There is no truth in these people, and while you may be willing to let it pass, I will not.
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
watch this Propaganda From Th BBC
here is your comment:
propaganda.jpg

Why do you portray this as "Propaganda from BBC"?

Personally, I see your comment as a propagandistic misattribution of a news article about contrails. What is the difference between your equating "chemtrails" with contrails and geoengineeringwatch equating "chemtrails" with ship tracks?
 
J

Joe

Guest
here is your comment:
propaganda.jpg

Why do you portray this as "Propaganda from BBC"?

Personally, I see your comment as a propagandistic misattribution of a news article about contrails. What is the difference between your equating "chemtrails" with contrails and geoengineeringwatch equating "chemtrails" with ship tracks?
It is warming us up to contrails being good for us .Pushing Conspiracies like climate change and global warming . That quote was a year ago I no longer believe they are chemtrails since no chemicals are involved . As far as ship tracks thats off topic . and you failed to convince me a ship track would last for 100s of miles .
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
It is warming us up to contrails being good for us .Pushing Conspiracies like climate change and global warming . That quote was a year ago I no longer believe they are chemtrails since no chemicals are involved . As far as ship tracks thats off topic . and you failed to convince me a ship track would last for 100s of miles .

Ship tracks are just changes the ship exhaust makes to the cloud layer. Ships travels 100s of miles in a day. Clouds last for days (at a large scale). See the day-night persistence of cloud features, including ship tracks, here



(best viewed in HD, full screen)
 
J

Joe

Guest
Ship tracks are just changes the ship exhaust makes to the cloud layer. Ships travels 100s of miles in a day. Clouds last for days (at a large scale). See the day-night persistence of cloud features, including ship tracks, here



(best viewed in HD, full screen)
that looks like the same month as in the intellicast because I remember the storm and it look like some attempt to steer it ?really they last for days ? Today its been a cool day no clouds or contrails seems kind of dry but now trails are showing up ? No clouds at all just trails
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
1-2 days tops. Watch the video above - everything is swirling around, so eventually thing get spread out if they don't dissipate.

Contrails are a symptom of storms. Not a cause. The storm system causes contrail condition
 
J

Joe

Guest
1-2 days tops. Watch the video above - everything is swirling around, so eventually thing get spread out if they don't dissipate.

Contrails are a symptom of storms. Not a cause. The storm system causes contrail condition
why are contrails forming now when most of the day there were none ? Florida looks real clear from the satellite ? Is there a front moving in ? I see clouds in the gulf and off the Atlantic
 

Belfrey

Senior Member.
that looks like the same month as in the intellicast because I remember the storm and it look like some attempt to steer it ?really they last for days ? Today its been a cool day no clouds or contrails seems kind of dry but now trails are showing up ? No clouds at all just trails

It's always interesting seeing your reports, because your conditions seem to lag behind mine as the air masses move towards the southeast. Today I was driving around the north part of the state for work (Gainesville-Jacksonville-Suwannee County-back to Gainesville). This morning in Jax, it was clear of natural clouds but with lots and lots of persistent contrails, spreading out (it was striking enough that I actually took a couple of pictures). During my bike ride home from the office, the sky was clear, I saw jets leaving contrails but none were persisting.
 

Belfrey

Senior Member.
why are contrails forming now when most of the day there were none ? Florida looks real clear from the satellite ? Is there a front moving in ? I see clouds in the gulf and off the Atlantic

As I understand it, storm systems aren't necessary for ice-supersaturated air to occur, but those conditions do frequently precede storms.
 
J

Joe

Guest
It's always interesting seeing your reports, because your conditions seem to lag behind mine as the air masses move towards the southeast. Today I was driving around the north part of the state for work (Gainesville-Jacksonville-Suwannee County-back to Gainesville). This morning in Jax, it was clear of natural clouds but with lots and lots of persistent contrails, spreading out (it was striking enough that I actually took a couple of pictures). During my bike ride home from the office, the sky was clear, I saw jets leaving contrails but none were persisting.
Today there were no clouds just clear blue skies until about 3 pm then a few contrails not really that much . Maybe because all those planes full of yankees are stuck in the Snow :)
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
As I understand it, storm systems aren't necessary for ice-supersaturated air to occur, but those conditions do frequently precede storms.

Correct, you certainly don't NEED a storm for contrails to form, it's just quite common to see them ahead of a storm.
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
. As far as ship tracks thats off topic . and you failed to convince me a ship track would last for 100s of miles .
Since you brought up ship tracks it seems a little late to try and avoid your own off topic discussion.

But hold on a second, first you said you would "believe" me if you understood from whence the north/south ship tracks came from, but rather than ask you to do that I showed you how to check it out for yourself.

Now you raise the bar by saying you cannot see how a ship track could last for 100's of miles? I created an entire thread showing you papers discussing them from the 1960's, explained how this happens in great detail, gave you examples of satellite imagery fro which you could personally calculate the speed and duration of the ship tracks, including where other chemtrail believers did this same exercise a decade ago.

Joe, you are simply being incorrigible. I understand it is natural to get caught up into something and have to admit you were wrong. But when you act this way it leaves me wondering what sort of denial syndrome is really happening here. Are you so hard pressed to maintain a belief that you must be constantly raising new barriers when confronted with clearly explained, documented historical, scientific measured evidence which you won't accept? I don't expect anything I say to convince you, I do expect you to check out the facts I present and if you find them in error to show how.

You certainly haven't disputed anything factual about ship tracks in any way, so on what basis do you find the evidence unconvincing?
 

scombrid

Senior Member.

Looks exactly like the sunset we just had in southeast Virginia. It was clear all day here except for diurnal cumulus clouds 1-2k feet off the ground. Drying and subsidence in the wake of the departing low pressure precluded cloud formation at any other altitude.
-
Those types of cirrus clouds often precede precipitation by 36-48 hours in the winter months in the mid-latitudes. It's one way old timers used to forecast weather. Not nearly as reliable or precise as modern forecasting as it does not reliably indicate intensity of the approaching system but it is just an example of a cloud type that has been observed so commonly that it was used to forecast weather back in the old days.

There is yet another low pressure approaching the east coast and the cirrus clouds are the first visible sign as they ride over top of the high pressure that is in place at the surface.

Forecast discussion from the Melbourne NWS office:

FRI...WEAK HIGH PRESSURE RIDGING WILL SHIFT EASTWARD INTO THE WESTERN ATLANTIC WITH THE APPROACH OF A LOW PRESSURE SYSTEM DEVELOPING OVER EAST TEXAS AND LOUISIANA. WINDS WILL REMAIN LIGHT UNDER 10 MPH AND WILL VEER TO EAST OR EAST-SOUTHEAST. AFTER ANOTHER CHILLY START TO THE DAY MAX TEMPERATURES ARE FORECAST TO RECOVER INTO THE UPPER 60S ALONG AND NORTH OF THE I-4 CORRIDOR AND NEAR 70 DEGREES TO LOWER 70S FURTHER SOUTHWARD...EXCEPT FOR A FEW MIDDLE 70S POSSIBLE IN SOUTHERN OKEECHOBEE COUNTY AND MARTIN COUNTY. CONDITIONS WILL REMAIN DRY...THOUGH THE AIRMASS WILL BEGIN TO MODERATE. FRI NIGHT-SAT...MOISTURE ASSOCIATED WITH A LOW PRESSURE SYSTEM MOVES IN FRIDAY NIGHT. FORCING LOOKS GOOD FOR SHOWERS WITH MAYBE A FEW EMBEDDED THUNDERSTORMS STARTING LATE FRIDAY NIGHT NORTH AND SPREADING SOUTH THROUGH SATURDAY.
 
J

Joe

Guest
Since you brought up ship tracks it seems a little late to try and avoid your own off topic discussion.

But hold on a second, first you said you would "believe" me if you understood from whence the north/south ship tracks came from, but rather than ask you to do that I showed you how to check it out for yourself.

Now you raise the bar by saying you cannot see how a ship track could last for 100's of miles? I created an entire thread showing you papers discussing them from the 1960's, explained how this happens in great detail, gave you examples of satellite imagery fro which you could personally calculate the speed and duration of the ship tracks, including where other chemtrail believers did this same exercise a decade ago.

Joe, you are simply being incorrigible. I understand it is natural to get caught up into something and have to admit you were wrong. But when you act this way it leaves me wondering what sort of denial syndrome is really happening here. Are you so hard pressed to maintain a belief that you must be constantly raising new barriers when confronted with clearly explained, documented historical, scientific measured evidence which you won't accept? I don't expect anything I say to convince you, I do expect you to check out the facts I present and if you find them in error to show how.

You certainly haven't disputed anything factual about ship tracks in any way, so on what basis do you find the evidence unconvincing?
:p Mick explained it already . They do look the same as a bunch of contrails off Floridas coast . What makes you so sure they were shiptracks and not contrails ? Since both seem to persist these days Jay ?
 

scombrid

Senior Member.
A couple of features distinguish contrails from ship trails on satellite imagery and these differences derive from the nature of the vessels creating the trails and the type of airmasses in which the trails form. These differences are most easily discerned in animated time lapse series.

Ships move at 20kts or so. Planes at cruising at high altitude move in excess of 500kts. If you have animated series of satellite images with 30 minutes between individual frames the contrails will look like the appear instantly between images since a plane covers >250 nautical miles between image captures. A ship will only go 10 or so nautical miles in the same time. Newly forming ship trails will slowly grow in the loop. Contrails will often drift very quickly, especially when planes are flying perpendicular to a jet stream. Today in SE Virginia, for example, the winds at 11,000 meters are out of the west at 144 kts. Most of the traffic overhead is North-South with planes flying between the big northeast airports and the southeastern hubs like Charlotte and Atlanta (plus a majority of the traffic between the northeastern airports and Florida. for example planes flying from Orlando to Providence or Baltimore or Philadelphia fly over the house where I am staying a majority of the time). The flights over Virginia are leaving numerous trails today in that cross wind. The trails are then drifting very rapidly toward the east. If you look at a satellite loop you'll see the very fast motion of the trails from over Virginia to over the Atlantic. (note that contrails do not appear to move if the plane that made the trail is flying directly up wind or down wind). Meanwhile, ship trails form in a stable marine layer at the surface, their apparent motion on satellite imagery is much slower in general.

Also. Ship trails form in a stable surface layer and are therefore water clouds above 0 degrees celcius. Contrails form <40 degrees celcius and are ice. This gives then a very different appearance in infrared and satellite imagery.
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
:p Mick explained it already . They do look the same as a bunch of contrails off Floridas coast . What makes you so sure they were shiptracks and not contrails ? Since both seem to persist these days Jay ?

These days? No, I documented ship tracks from the 1960's in the thread. In case you didn't read the thread.......?

Probably the best way to distinguish the difference is to understand that cloud height is related to cloud temperature. In satellite imagery, especially infrared imagery, cloud temperature is shown by a color difference.

Identifying Cloud Types in Weather Satellite Imagery said:
In general, the most effective method for identifying individual cloud types is to obtain a VIS and an IR image of the same scene. The VIS image can be used to identify cloud shapes, textures, organizational patterns, and thicknesses. In general, the thicker a cloud is, the higher its albedo and the brighter it will appear in visible imagery. Thin clouds are often very dark or transparent in visible imagery. Cloud texture refers to its appearance in visible imagery. Clouds with irregular tops will often exhibit shadowing, known as a "lumpy" textures, while layered clouds with flat tops will have a "smooth" texture. Windswept clouds that have a wispy appearance are often said to exhibit a "fibrous" texture.

Visible satellite data can then be compared to an IR image in order to determine the height of the clouds. In general, the higher a cloud is, the colder it is. In IR imagery, therefore, lower, warmer clouds will appear darker while high, cold clouds will appear brighter. When all this information is put together, it is usually possible to make a reliable assessment of what types of clouds are present in the image and the weather that is associated with each.
http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/ssip/asat_int/clouds.html

As you can see in this image, the ship tracks are darker and approximately the same color as the low marine cloud boundary layer:

geocolor_westconusfullres_20120614053000-to1015-anim.gif

Therefore, these are not contrails formed in high altitude clouds, they are very near the surface. They are also moving in a completely different direction from the higher colder brighter clouds, and move along with the darker marine boundary layer, not along with the higher, brighter colder clouds.

Joe, if Dane Wigington and Michael J. Murphy had the guts to debate the issue openly, all of this would come out. The chemtrail promoters ran away when challenged because their ship track hoax could not be sustained. They didn't want people to judge for themselves based on accurate information, they want their marks to remain ignorant of the facts surrounding their claims. They wanted to instill pure FEAR in your mind based soley on a photo with no background information. Do you enjoy being manipulated like this? Does it anger you to be deceived? Are you willing to just sit back and watch their horror movie any longer?

Now that you have found out what they did, how do you feel about it?
 
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J

Joe

Guest
These days? No, I documented ship tracks from the 1960's in the thread. In case you didn't read the thread.......?

Probably the best way to distinguish the difference is to understand that cloud height is related to cloud temperature. In satellite imagery, especially infrared imagery, cloud temperature is shown by a color difference.


As you can see in this image, the ship tracks are darker and approximately the same color as the low marine cloud boundary layer:

geocolor_westconusfullres_20120614053000-to1015-anim.gif

Therefore, these are not contrails formed in high altitude clouds, they are very near the surface. They are also moving in a completely different direction from the higher colder brighter clouds, and move along with the darker marine boundary layer, not along with the higher, brighter colder clouds.

Joe, if Dane Wigington and Michael J. Murphy had the guts to debate the issue openly, all of this would come out. The chemtrail promoters ran away when challenged because their ship track hoax could not be sustained. They didn't want people to judge for themselves based on accurate information, they want their marks to remain ignorant of the facts surrounding their claims. They wanted to instill pure FEAR in your mind based soley on a photo with no background information. Do you enjoy being manipulated like this? Does it anger you to be deceived? Are you willing to just sit back and watch their horror movie any longer?

Now that you have found out what they did, how do you feel about it?
I really dont listen to what Murphy says .Why do you always bring up Murphy ? Do you monitor me and watch what sites I go on ? Im actually on this site more then most others . I have no feaR of shiptracks contrails or chemtrails , since we are all exposed to them . I just dislike my skies looking like crap . When was that image taken ? Do Diesel trucks leave tracks above the interstate highways ?
 
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Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
When was that image taken ? Do Diesel trucks leave tracks above the interstate highways ?

The animated image is 2012-06-14, (June 14, 2012).

That's an interesting question about trucks. The answer is yes and no. Yes, it leaves a track, but no, you can't see it.

The reason there is that a ship is a single very large source of aerosols. So it leaves a trail as it moves. A truck is just one of thousands of much smaller sources, all at different points along the highway. So it's like the entire highway is pumping out aerosols, but at a much lower rate (per truck) than the giant ship.

So instead of one massive source, you've got thousands of individual small sources. So instead of it forming a thick line, it will form a really thin sheet.

Ship tracks are also quite isolated, as there's not much traffic in the ocean compared to on land. On land the aerosols will quickly merge with existing aerosols from other roads and cities.

There's other factors as well. Ships have higher exhausts, and exhaust more gas, so will naturally get much higher quicker, and hence into potential cloud forming regions. Trucks' exhaust is lower and smaller, so does not go as high as quickly, making cloud formation less likely.

All in all, which the aerosols in a truck exhaust will eventually contribute in some small way to cloud formation, and where it does this will roughly relate to the road it takes, it's very unlikely that would be able to see it.
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
I really dont listen to what Murphy says .Why do you always bring up Murphy ? Do you monitor me and watch what sites I go on ?

Well, it is remarkable that the exact same wording of your posting yesterday about "BBC Propaganda" coincides exactly with Michael J. Murphy's posting.

Maybe that is just coincidence.........?
"Birds of afeather flock together"
I'm not accusing you of being MJM's paid shill, but just sayin'.....

The main reason why Murphy and Wigington are involved here is that this latest iteration of the ship track hoax was promoted by them. Since they brought it up, and you subsequently brought it to this thread, the chain of blame for the hoax needs to be shown.

treasurecoastskywatch said:
Im actually on this site more then most others . I have no feaR of shiptracks contrails or chemtrails , since we are all exposed to them . I just dislike my skies looking like crap . When was that image taken ? Do Diesel trucks leave tracks above the interstate highways ?

When does the image say it was taken? Seems you shouldn't have to ask since it is right there.

Trucks may not leave ship tracks because they don't drive in areas of the oceans where a stable marine boundary layer exists!
You really didn't bother to read my posting about how ship tracks form, did you?
My time doing the research and explaining it was a total waste in your case, you really want to believe that ship tracks are contrails from planes, and that Michael J. Murphy and Dane Wigington would not lie to you. No one can help a person who wants to believe bunk even when the bunk has been debunked in every possible way. There really is no other answer. Just don't ask me to stop debunking when you werethe one promoting the bunk, I will take you on....

wikipedia said:
In general, the air above the oceans suffers from less turbulence and convection than the air above land. The lower atmosphere is especially calm over the eastern Pacific in the summertime due to a layer of hot air that settles in 500 to 700 meters above that region of the ocean. This effect creates a temperature inversion, placing a cap on the cooler air below, trapping pollutants and water vapor. While the inversion is responsible for the smog that reduces air quality in Los Angeles, it also allows for the formation of long lasting ship tracks. The particles billowing from ships' smokestacks enter the air above the eastern Pacific and create long, thin clouds that remain there for days.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_tracks#Ship_tracks_study
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Trucks may not leave ship tracks because they don't drive in areas of the oceans where a stable marine boundary layer exists!

That too :)

It think it's possible that somewhere in the archive of the last ten years of MODIS satellite images there's a trail that some lonely truck in Siberia left. But generally it's not going to happen.
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
I really dont listen to what Murphy says .Why do you always bring up Murphy ? I just dislike my skies looking like crap.
Joe, I'm going to break down the reality of your situation. It sounds like you are at the cusp, a turning point, a fork in the road. You are at least willing to listen to the facts of the matter, and that is good. Some of your former fears and involvement with the chemtrails hoax have become things of the past for the most part. You are able to identify the planes you see and that part is no longer such a mystery. You might actually one day change completely, and I am actually proud of how far you have come.

If you truly dislike seeing contrails, the bad news is that most likely those will continue for the rest of your life, and even increase in number. You may as well get used to it because there is very little chance for change. Having an active hoax like chemtrails along with the increase in contrails is probably the worst thing that could have happened to the sky. The chemtrails hoax trivializes the issue and brings it into disrepute just like a rabid communist or racist brings disrepute on an ordinary political party if they join in a march.

While the more public promoters of the hoax bear the bulk of the blame for the hoax, you have to admit that your former belief and promotion of the chemtrails hoax led you to promote it for years. Some small part of the blame therefore lies with you, personally. You certainly must know this. The position you are now in is very ironic, since your former involvement promoting the chemtrails hoax is now working against your current desire to decrease ordinary contrails.

How will you deal with this? What courses of action can you choose? here are some possibilities:

1. Choose to go back and rejoin the chemtrails crowd.
This option might seem attractive. You will find many people love-bomb you for doing this, but it would be the worst choice because you will bring further disrepute to the real issue.
2. Do nothing, which is a choice to allow whatever happens to happen, an abdication of responsibility.
This option may also seem attractive, but it offers no solution at all.
3. Continue chemtrails belief and complain about contrails at the same time.
You are currently close to this.
4. End chemtrails belief and complain about contrails.
You are currently close to this.
5. End chemtrails belief and fight against it, complain about contrails.
This choice would work to end the disrepute, but offer no solution besides that.
6. 5 above plus actively work to decrease contrails.
This choice would ally you with groups seeking to end the disrepute and with legitimate groups seeking to decrease contrails.

Which seems the best choice to you?
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
And Jay . . . where would one find an effective group to lobby for contrail mitigation???

6. 5 above plus actively work to decrease contrails.
This choice would ally you with groups seeking to end the disrepute and with legitimate groups seeking to decrease contrails.
Content from External Source
 
J

Joe

Guest
Joe, I'm going to break down the reality of your situation. It sounds like you are at the cusp, a turning point, a fork in the road. You are at least willing to listen to the facts of the matter, and that is good. Some of your former fears and involvement with the chemtrails hoax have become things of the past for the most part. You are able to identify the planes you see and that part is no longer such a mystery. You might actually one day change completely, and I am actually proud of how far you have come.

If you truly dislike seeing contrails, the bad news is that most likely those will continue for the rest of your life, and even increase in number. You may as well get used to it because there is very little chance for change. Having an active hoax like chemtrails along with the increase in contrails is probably the worst thing that could have happened to the sky. The chemtrails hoax trivializes the issue and brings it into disrepute just like a rabid communist or racist brings disrepute on an ordinary political party if they join in a march.

While the more public promoters of the hoax bear the bulk of the blame for the hoax, you have to admit that your former belief and promotion of the chemtrails hoax led you to promote it for years. Some small part of the blame therefore lies with you, personally. You certainly must know this. The position you are now in is very ironic, since your former involvement promoting the chemtrails hoax is now working against your current desire to decrease ordinary contrails.

How will you deal with this? What courses of action can you choose? here are some possibilities:

1. Choose to go back and rejoin the chemtrails crowd.
This option might seem attractive. You will find many people love-bomb you for doing this, but it would be the worst choice because you will bring further disrepute to the real issue.
2. Do nothing, which is a choice to allow whatever happens to happen, an abdication of responsibility.
This option may also seem attractive, but it offers no solution at all.
3. Continue chemtrails belief and complain about contrails at the same time.
You are currently close to this.
4. End chemtrails belief and complain about contrails.
You are currently close to this.
5. End chemtrails belief and fight against it, complain about contrails.
This choice would work to end the disrepute, but offer no solution besides that.
6. 5 above plus actively work to decrease contrails.
This choice would ally you with groups seeking to end the disrepute and with legitimate groups seeking to decrease contrails.

Which seems the best choice to you?
Or I can just keep my eyes on the Geoengineers and make sure they being honest and open about their plans ? Seems they are open to debate with all of us ? they do let Jim Lee post on their site .
 
J

Joe

Guest
A tiny, ski-equipped Greenland Air twin otter slides in for a landing at Summit Station on Friday. The twin's exhaust hits extreme cold temperatures and creates ice fog, which lingered in the still air for some time. Photo: Ed Stockard
Oct-29-10-6851-500x331.jpg
http://www.polarfield.com/blog/turnover-begins/
 
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Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
Or I can just keep my eyes on the Geoengineers and make sure they being honest and open about their plans?
That is option 2, do nothing, stand for nothing, solve nothing.

It might seem comfortable, because it takes no effort to do nothing, but doing nothing is a choice to accept whatever happens, to be an uninvolved bystander as the world passes you by, and accept whatever befalls you.

Don't come bitchin about what you get when you have made that choice, though.

For example:
-don't bitch when legitimate concerns over contrails gets put off for another decade or so because of the chemtrail hoax, if you aren't going to fight against it.
-don't moan and groan about contrails in your sky if you won't become active in finding a solution for the situation.
 

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