Debunked: Cop Car Towed to Media Location then Torched at Million Mask March - BX10 LNV

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member


The above two images have been shared on Facebook as evidence that the torching of a police car at the "Million Mask March" demonstration in London was staged by the authorities. But while the car itself was actually set on fire, the image on the left is an entirely unrelated image taken on April 21, 2011 by Josh Reynolds, and posted on his Flickr account:



The meme is shared as a single image (originally one photo above the other, I moved it side by side for this post). This presents some brief obstacles for finding the original. The usual trick of dragging the image into Google Image Search does not work. So there's two other ways of finding the original image.

Search with Part of a Composite Image

We are really only interested in the photos of the police car being towed. So we want to just crop that half of the image. We could save the image then crop it in an image editing program like Photoshop, but by far the easiest way of doing it is to use a screen grab program that lets you select a region of the image.



Now this search (as happens quite often) takes you to a copy of the image on FlickRiver.com. This is quite an annoying site that automatically creates infinitely tall pages of large numbers of Flickr photos, and intersperses them with ads. So you often have to scroll down quite a ways before it shows up, waiting for the next images to chunkily appear.

So rather than going to the FlickRiver page, a better approach is to use the Google Cached version of that page, which you can scroll through much quicker.

You can then click on the image and it will take you to the Flickr page, where you can check the date.

Search with Clues in the Image

Something that's always worth a try is searching for any unique text in an image. Quite often you can find lots of photos of a plane by searching for the tail number. But, rather surprisingly, you can also find quite a lot of photos of London police cars by searching for the license plate number. "BX10 LNV" (make sure you include the quotes) in Google Image Search gives us:


This does not appear to be any kind of police watchdog group, but rather more like train spotters, or aircraft spotters - just people who have a hobby of photographing police vehicles or emergency vehicles. People like Chris999 or BlueLightPics.

This also explains why the early photo of the burned car exists, At first this seems like a bit of a coincidence - what are the odds that there would be a photo of the burned out car being towed years earlier? Well, it turns out that pretty much every police car in London stars in tens of images on the web, and police cars break down just as much as other cars (maybe more). So it's really not that odd at all.

Of course the fact that the image is fake does not prove who set the car on fire. But the setting on fire of cars is a pretty ordinary event in mass protests. Seems like this was just a car left unattended and a few people took the opportunity to pile some paper on the windscreen and set it on fire. The press were more than happy to get a photo opportunity.


Another Facebook image tries to make what looks like a bottle of water instead be a police truncheon (baton).



 
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Efftup

Senior Member.
Yes cos undercover cops always walk around with a police truncheon.
That's as ridiculous as the people suggesting seal team members were at the Boston Marathon based on a logo on someone's baseball cap.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
He seems awful protective of it. How much does a bottle of water cost in London these days? wondering if its full of gasoline.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
How does it debunk anything? All it says is the car is 5 years old. You'll have to explain why you think that is a debunk.
 

LouV

Member
Hum, I used Google images like Mick West demonstrated, typing the licence plate number.
I already found two images marked as taken later than 2011.
Of course, I can't tell for sure if this image was taken in 2011 and then uploaded much later. Can this be done by analyzing the meta-data ?

(As an aside, I don't understand why the MMM doesn't simply put a disclaimer saying they aren't associated with the people who committed violent acts, and don't condone these methods to acheive their goals. There are always a few incidents like that in big events such as this one, either by people on the far fringe of the movement or by thugs not interested in the movement at all and seeing an opportunity for mayhem.)
 
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Hevach

Senior Member.
@MetPoliceUK cops don't drive 5 year old cars - but they did burn one. In addition to the above there are eyewitness accounts:
Considering that these "carspotter" websites referenced above show dozens of this model still in service, prove it. Give me some reason to believe that police in a country where police widely complain about funding and support, would be replacing cars barely out of warranty rather than maintaining them.
 

TerlinguaRE

Banned
Banned
Considering that these "carspotter" websites referenced above show dozens of this model still in service, prove it. Give me some reason to believe that police in a country where police widely complain about funding and support, would be replacing cars barely out of warranty rather than maintaining them.

We've given you all we believe is necessary. If you think otherwise, do your own research. The big issue here is not the service record of the vehicle, which you can request from @MetPoliceUK if you like, but eyewitness reports and other overwhelming evidence that cops staged that 5 year old police car burning for the media to discredit Anonymous.
 

Efftup

Senior Member.
We've given you all we believe is necessary. If you think otherwise, do your own research. The big issue here is not the service record of the vehicle, which you can request from @MetPoliceUK if you like, but eyewitness reports and other overwhelming evidence that cops staged that 5 year old police car burning for the media to discredit Anonymous.
How do these eyewitnesses KNOW they were undercover cops?
so far, your entire eyewitness accounts you have posted here is one tweet.

DO these people personally know or recognize the Met's undercover cops? Did they talk to each other and mention being cops? Did one of them drop his police ID, or accidentally flash it?

Without anything better to go on than someone's claims, I see no reason at all to assume that is what happened.

Unless you perhaps want to share any of this OTHER overwhelming evidence.

Your new infographic is not really much different to your old one. It simply acknowledges for those prepared to actually look closely that the towing image is 4 years old.
It still has a caption that misleadingly invites people to think that it was towed to the destination.
You say police don't drive 5 year old cars. Well they certainly do in Bristol.
Do police have a car that needs towing, and not mend it, or if it is beyond repair, instead of writing it off, keep it in storage for 4 years just in case they want to torch it in a clandestine operation that would involve towing it to the location, which you DON'T have a picture of?

SO far your evidence is not just very underwhelming, it looks like nothing more than speculation, and people making claims with nothing to back it up more than "gut instinct".
 

TerlinguaRE

Banned
Banned
How do these eyewitnesses KNOW they were undercover cops?
so far, your entire eyewitness accounts you have posted here is one tweet.

DO these people personally know or recognize the Met's undercover cops? Did they talk to each other and mention being cops? Did one of them drop his police ID, or accidentally flash it?

Without anything better to go on than someone's claims, I see no reason at all to assume that is what happened.

Unless you perhaps want to share any of this OTHER overwhelming evidence.

Your new infographic is not really much different to your old one. It simply acknowledges for those prepared to actually look closely that the towing image is 4 years old.
It still has a caption that misleadingly invites people to think that it was towed to the destination.
You say police don't drive 5 year old cars. Well they certainly do in Bristol.
Do police have a car that needs towing, and not mend it, or if it is beyond repair, instead of writing it off, keep it in storage for 4 years just in case they want to torch it in a clandestine operation that would involve towing it to the location, which you DON'T have a picture of?

SO far your evidence is not just very underwhelming, it looks like nothing more than speculation, and people making claims with nothing to back it up more than "gut instinct".

We gave you all the info you need to verify what we presented and contact the witnesses via Twitter if you like. If you want more info, do your own research.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
The big issue here is not the service record of the vehicle,
well if thats not the big issue, why did you lead with that? So you have one witness that says anonymously on twitter it was a cop?

was the burning anywhere near the mainstream college kids protest walks? its a strange pic to add to his tweet, no?
 

Trailblazer

Moderator
Staff member
We gave you all the info you need to verify what we presented and contact the witnesses via Twitter if you like. If you want more info, do your own research.
What a cop out (no pun intended).

Telling people to "do their own research" is basically saying "I have no evidence, take my word for it instead."

I live in the UK, and work in London, and I can assure you that police cars five years old or more are a common sight. Do you really think that the fact this car broke down in 2011 means it was no longer in service in 2015?

The EXIF data on the images above show that this car was certainly in service in August 2013:


upload_2015-11-9_11-15-20.png


A very quick search on Flickr for recent photos of Metropolitan Police vehicles shows plenty in service of similar ages or older.

Taken Oct 31 2015, 60 reg (registered Sep 2010-Feb 2011)

Taken Oct 17 2015, 09 reg (Mar-Aug 2009)

Taken May 19 2015, 58 reg (Sep 2008-Feb 2009)



I'm more concerned by the fact that the police were illegally parked :)

 

MikeG

Senior Member.
We gave you all the info you need to verify what we presented and contact the witnesses via Twitter if you like. If you want more info, do your own research.

No, I'm sorry, but repeating "do your own research" is not enough in this case.

If you are going to claim "eyewitness reports and other overwhelming evidence," then provide it.

I have a problem with vehement, definitive statements that melt into passive aggression the first time they are challenged.
 

TerlinguaRE

Banned
Banned
well if thats not the big issue, why did you lead with that? So you have one witness that says anonymously on twitter it was a cop?

was the burning anywhere near the mainstream college kids protest walks? its a strange pic to add to his tweet, no?

1. We didn't.

2. We provided on Twitter witness link. Want more? Go to Twitter.

3. Refer to the witness tweets.

4. Subjective.
 

TerlinguaRE

Banned
Banned
No, I'm sorry, but repeating "do your own research" is not enough in this case.

If you are going to claim "eyewitness reports and other overwhelming evidence," then provide it.

I have a problem with vehement, definitive statements that melt into passive aggression the first time they are challenged.

WE decide what's enough for us to post. YOU decide whether you want to do more research.
 

Trailblazer

Moderator
Staff member
1. We didn't.

2. We provided on Twitter witness link. Want more? Go to Twitter.

3. Refer to the witness tweets.

4. Subjective.
The whole point of the "Million Mask March" is that anyone can go. Anyone who puts on a stupid mask can call themselves "Anonymous". So trying to disclaim the actions by the minority of idiots who attend any big demonstration in order to cause trouble seems pretty disingenuous, not to say pointless.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
1. We didn't.
yes YOU (singular) did.

2. We provided on Twitter witness link. Want more? Go to Twitter
i did. there's nothing there. there were multiple people around photographing the guys lighting the fire ..why iddnt your witness snap a shot too?

3. Refer to the witness tweets.
i did. he didnt say.

4. Subjective.
so? youre whole argument is subjective.
 

Auldy

Senior Member.
Were the protesters that threw fireworks at horses (a potentially more dangerous and irresponsible thing to do than set fire to police cars, IMO) the work of undercover policemen too @TerlinguaRE ?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...march-put-officers-lives-at-risk-police-chief

Whats your opinion on that incident? You see, say you admit that throwing fireworks at old horses was the irresponsible actions of the MMM protestors (something that could have potentially caused much more injury and damage that it already did), can't you agree that protestors could also do the similarly reckless, but not as worse, vandalism of an unattended public service vehicle? Or were the firework attacks on the mounted units a similar undercover job?
 

Spectrar Ghost

Senior Member.
WE decide what's enough for us to post. YOU decide whether you want to do more research.

No.

You decide what's enough to post. Each of us decides whether you've reached a reasonable threshold of evidence.

Coming on a site that examines claims of evidence with a single tweet and then getting indignant and asking us to "find our own evidence, this one's yours" makes it seem like there isn't much evidence to be had. Is it not more likely that a handful of idiots took the opportunity to make trouble because they were wearing masks and consequences seemed unlikely?
 

tadaaa

Senior Member
just a casual observation, but

the heading of the pamphlet uses odd wording imo

- a five year old auto

that seems over Americanised to me

most people I know would write

- a five year old car

maybe I am getting a little conspiratorial in my old age !!!!!
 

Trailblazer

Moderator
Staff member
@MetPoliceUK cops don't drive 5 year old cars - but they did burn one. In addition to the above there are eyewitness accounts:

So what? That is an assertion with no evidence. That witness doesn't explain how they ascertained that these particular people in masks, in the middle of thousands of other people in masks, were undercover police. How did they find out? What is their proof? Why should we believe those words on a screen?

This site deals with evidence. Evidence can be proven or disproven. Words on a screen can't. If they said "This person is an undercover policeman because [evidence]" then it would be worth examining.
 

HiNtZ

New Member
Be interesting to see how the naysayers explain this one away....

Copper was seen driving this very car earlier that day, and subsequently was filmed in plain clothes pulling the arsonist away from the car that evening.

851ae5253262d74d9b4a7cca51c46f3e.jpg

It's obviously a ploy to justify water cannons....

[Mod Edit: The "earlier that same day" photo is from three years ago]

August 16th, 2012.
 
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TerlinguaRE

Banned
Banned
efa1bcad41eaa3812ebe6e2d9e2e782e._.png

1. Here is BX10-LNV on 11 Apr 2011, a 2010 Vauxhall Zafira firetrap being towed by the cops.

2. Here is BX10-LNV on 05 Nov 2015, in bad shape on an empty street being torched by the cops.

3. Are London's finest riding around in faulty 5 year-old cars - or just using them for psyops?
 

LouV

Member
Well whatever caused the "bad shape" of the car, it has to have happened later than August 2013 (since Trailblazer confirmed the date of the photo thanks to the Exif data).
(And seriously, you think this kind of "bad shape" is enough to stop using a car ??? In this case my parents should have stoppped using theirs years ago.
This car looks still functional in spite of the damage on the side, to me it's sufficient to be used by police. This is a vehicul for patrolling, not show off in a parade.)

(To be clear : I can accept police and the media hyping far too much incidents like this one to make the MMM look bad ; and if these were caused by just a few troublemakers, they could disingenuously generalize this attitude to all the MMM.
However, your accusation that it was the work of undercover police is still seriously under-documented. You can go and read the Posting guidelines to better see what is the goal of this forum and the standard of evidence accepted here. )
 

Trailblazer

Moderator
Staff member
If a 10-registered car is only fit for the scrapheap then I'm in trouble. This is sat on my driveway :(

image.jpeg


And talking of cars in bad shape... what is the red circle supposed to be highlighting? Damage?




In better images of the car you can see that the only damage, apart from the fire, appears to be that the wing mirror has been bent. The big red thing is just a strip of plastic rubbish.



I suggest it is probably a piece of a Westminster Council waste bag, which are a common sight outside London businesses: http://cleanstreets.westminster.gov.uk/pre-paid-waste-bags/?gclid=CIreqKHJg8kCFROeGwodgjoKjQ

7d5417fad9135494bc0b00b39f568157.jpg

The other photo from the same photographer shows more of the red plastic mixed in with the burning rubbish on the windscreen.
 
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Ray Von Geezer

Senior Member.
So because it got towed as far back as 2011, that must mean that it wasn't on the road in 2015? Talk about grasping at straws!

Anyway, Despite it breaking down years ago, it was fit and well enough to be taxed in July and MOT'd in September this year.AnonymousCopCar.jpg

It's age is another red-herring. Anecdotally I've seen plenty of aging pandas (though I doubt motorway cars are sweated for as long). A quick Google brought up stock lists from dealers and auctions of ex-police cars (this one for example http://www.longfieldexport.co.uk/) selling plenty of one owner ex-police cars, many of which are older than the one that got torched.

As an aside, who (supposedly) from the UK would put hyphens in a UK car registration?

Ray Von
 

Balance

Senior Member.
For those not familiar how others are determing the vehicle age, this should help
Video shows something burning on screen
 

TerlinguaRE

Banned
Banned
As no one thus far has definitively answered our question, we have posed it directly to the one party who certainly can. If we get an answer, we will post it to this forum:

 

Trailblazer

Moderator
Staff member
As no one thus far has definitively answered our question, we have posed it directly to the one party who certainly can. If we get an answer, we will post it to this forum:

Can you explain what you mean by the car being "in bad shape". One bent wing mirror?

Or by it being a "firetrap"? Does setting light to paper and plastic on the windscreen of a car make it a "firetrap"?

I'm happily driving around in a 13-year-old car. Modern cars last quite a long time, you know.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
I suggest it is probably a piece of a Westminster Council waste bag
yea it was vandlaized first apparently.2E27231400000578-3305777-image-a-16_1446763064770.jpg

775d3aca4adf2c9d9749e0a4ddd0bdfa.jpg


11be1a4acf8c0836304561415715f7cb.jpg

f1641640444cc1ab2bc86f7b0600eb37.jpg

and the two that set fire to it weren't in masks at all. and with those silver pants, Nike purse and dayglo blue shoes, i'm sure the police will be able to track them down.



4ffff9867ca07d9ea0fa6be0d8a3596c.jpg

1029673811.jpg

8622cdc39728cb2939021827c6b53dc2.jpg

[Mod: Edited to add more photos for chronology of events]
 
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Bruno D.

Senior Member.
The claim makes no sense at all.

Why would the conspirators tow a disabled police vehicle to stage the torching? Why wouldn't they just torch a cop car and be done with it?

It's once again the overly complicated plans that makes no sense at all.

Staging scenario 1:
- pay 10 corrupt cops to torch a police car
- tip the media about it

Staging scenario 2:
- store cars for years just in case we need it
- pay someone to tow the car to the location, hope nobody sees it
- pay 10 corrupt cops to torch the car
- tip the media about it

Why would anyone choose the second scenario?
 

mm1145

Member
As no one thus far has definitively answered our question, we have posed it directly to the one party who certainly can. If we get an answer, we will post it to this forum:


Which question? the one that is the equivalent to the old "have you stopped beating your wife yet?"

why do you think it odd that the police use 5 year old cars?

why do you think it is odd that a car that is obviously in the middle of being attacked had a damaged wig mirror?

in short what is it you think is odd in what you have shown us?
 

Whitebeard

Senior Member.
3. Refer to the witness tweets.
So if I tweeted that I saw Big Foot in a Bristol park, or Nessie swimming up the River Avon that would be proof that these things happened.

Bottom line is police vehicles are popular targets for the more bolshy type of protester and rioter...
f8eee91852decb2f9e933df8248cab4a.jpg
(Tottenham 2011)

eb1c7266d71bc05f6d691f0ccd628775.jpg
(Bristol -St Pauls 1980)

37950e1f8bad4a1e6c0ae7f60050569a.jpg
(Brixton 1981)

6b6151315af17909ad3ab9cb99f88cb2.jpg
(Toxteth 1981)

... understandable, from the rioters point of view, as the police vehicle is considered by them as a symbol of the oppressors and is an easy target. As a veteran protester myself I've seen such incidents first hand. And I will not say that at times police tactics haven't aggravated situations and sparked violence, hell, I'm old enough to remember the days of the SPG and the more right leaning coppers who joined in order to 'break lefty heads. However I am also aware of (and know former members of) groups such as Class War and the like who actively attach themselves to protests and activist movements just so they can 'have a little pop at the law' (and there is nothing like a burning cop car to attract the police into an area so they can be popped at). This is nothing new and has been a problem for police and protester alike going back to the days when I joined the Anti-Nazi League way back in 1979 if not earlier.

And in this case I'm not say it wasn't a police deep cover op acting agent provocateur, but I'm not saying it was either, but I am saying that evidence provided so far isn't proof it was plod torching that car, and does tend to suggest that this is just another police car burnt in a riot situation.
 
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Whitebeard

Senior Member.
Or by it being a "firetrap"? Does setting light to paper and plastic on the windscreen of a car make it a "firetrap"?
I think it's a reference to this on going (and unrelated) situation...
http://www.express.co.uk/finance/pe...ll-220-000-Zafiras-after-cars-burst-into-fire
c09c9cb272a589e269ec44b67175b18f.jpg
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Be interesting to see how the naysayers explain this one away....

Copper was seen driving this very car earlier that day, and subsequently was filmed in plain clothes pulling the arsonist away from the car that evening.

851ae5253262d74d9b4a7cca51c46f3e.jpg

It's obviously a ploy to justify water cannons....

Hard to tell if you are just joking here. Two people having similar looking skin and hair does not make them the same person.

I understand people want it to be a "false flag", but desperately bring up the most tenuous pieces of "evidence" is only making the argument look silly.

In riots and near-riots, police cars (and other cars) get attacked. This is a simple fact, it does not detract from any nobility of cause that some of the demonstrators might have.
 
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