DEBUNKED - 9/11 aircraft black boxes weren't recovered

Alchemist

Banned
Banned
Why couldn't they recover the 4 black boxes (first time in HISTORY) but were somehow able to recover a paper passport of one of the hijackers?
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Um... I don't know? Does it matter to you? If so, you provide the answer, then maybe we'll have something to work with.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
There was quite a bit of paper recovered from the WTC--its flat, it doesn't get crushed easily.

And 3 of the 4 black boxes from the other planes were recovered,


And I did cut out the story of 2 men that claimed the ones from the WTC were found.
 
Why couldn't they recover the 4 black boxes (first time in HISTORY) but were somehow able to recover a paper passport of one of the hijackers?

They just recovered this past year the landing gear of one of the planes a few blocks away.
Are you suggesting that was planted? No video shows it going there but considering the speed involved
you wouldn't necessarily see an object that small being thrown clear. I guess it is always possible it made it
there when the buildings collapsed.

Ultimately Atta's passport is unimportant.
There is video surveillance of him going through security at the airport.
Why plant something that might arouse suspicion when you already have a smoking gun?

Edit - obviously the black boxes were crushed and burned in the fire/collapse.
 

Alchemist

Banned
Banned
And I did cut out the story of 2 men that claimed the ones from the WTC were found.
I just did some research on this...

According to the federal authorities controlling Ground Zero, the black boxes from the two crashed 767s, Flight 11 and Flight 175, failed to turn up in the rubble taken from the site. 4 The 9/11 Commission Report backs the FBI's story, flatly stating: "The CVRs and FDRs from American 11 and United 175 were not found."

There are accounts contradicting the official account of the black boxes. Two men who worked in the cleanup operation at Ground Zero claim that they helped authorities find three of the four black boxes in October of 2001. One of the workers, New York City firefighter Nicholas DeMasi, has self-published a book with other Ground Zero workers in which he describes the recovery of the devices. 5 The book, Behind the Scenes: GROUND ZERO, A Collection of Personal Accounts, can be ordered throughSummerOfTruth.org.

In December 2005, CounterPunch reported that an NTSB source contradicted the official account:

"Off the record, we had the boxes," the source says. "You'd have to get the official word from the FBI as to where they are, but we worked on them here." 6

http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/evidence/blackboxes.html

So it looks like they WERE found but covered up.

Funny how they get found then disappear and 911 Commission report claims there are no black boxes... yet they have the paper passport which miracilously survived the explosions
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
So what does the, according to you, deliberate misplacement of black boxes indicate to you? The flight path was different?

Are you also making a claim that paper cannot survive an explosion?
 

Jazzy

Closed Account
You seriously believe that they found a paper passport of one of the hijackers?
This is a very old chestnut.

Paper survives impacts very well, due to its low mass and high surface area. It tends to blow away in the blast before any liberated fuel catches fire. There's a physical equation for it which I managed to access once, but never again, which is very irritating.

Pick photos of any high-speed impact you can find of passenger aircraft (which normally carry within them loads of documents) and you will find the scene absolutely littered with sheets of paper.

A video that springs to mind is one accessed by the quote "I'm the problem". It's very chilling.


http://murderpedia.org/male.B/b/burke-david.htm
 
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Alchemist

Banned
Banned
It's certainly POSSIBLE.. however it's naive to blindly accept how they had such evidence miraculously fall on their lap.... especially from officials who have a long track record of lying to you.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
The case isn't built around the passport so it seems hardly worth planting - it's just a bit of interesting colour to the overall event.
 

Alchemist

Banned
Banned
The case isn't built around the passport so it seems hardly worth planting - it's just a bit of interesting colour to the overall event.
What is it built around? Let's see what those who were responsible for compiling the official story's (9/11 Commission) report think

Yet you continue to blindly believe the officials as if their word is gospel and they can tell no lies?
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Pleas stop the 'you blindly believe officials and believe they can tell no lies' bullshit. No-one has ever suggested any such thing.
I believe what there is evidence for, or what it's reasonable to assume based on the information presented to me or that I find on further investigation. I have no particular energy for disproving the historical record and no real reason to believe otherwise at this point in time.

The dissatisfaction at perceived obfuscation chronicled above doesn't prove anything other than typical intelligence and government bureaucracies covering their incompetent arses. It's not surprising an outsider would be annoyed at that.
 

Alchemist

Banned
Banned
So why are you so invested in defending a STORY that's not based on TRUTH (as admitted by the authors of it's own commission) and ONLY serves the agenda of the corporations who make TONS of MONEY engaging in WARS because of it while completely dismissing anything to the contrary?
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
I believe what I saw, what my friends from NYC tell me and those things that have evidence in either facts, science, or reasoning. I don't believe stories for which there is zero evidence and that defy common reasoning (like the building were imploded or 'nuked' or destroyed by particle beam or blown up by photon torpedoes from the Enterprise.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifes...m/2011/09/06/gIQASoPpCK_gallery.html#photo=31


[Admin: Post was messed up, replaced with link to gallery]
 
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Pete Tar

Senior Member.
So why are you so invested in defending a STORY that's not based on TRUTH (as admitted by the authors of it's own commission) and ONLY serves the agenda of the corporations who make TONS of MONEY engaging in WARS because of it while completely dismissing anything to the contrary?

I'm not. Hope that helps.
 

Eddie

Member
To not even find those black boxes at the WTC but manage to find a passport of one of the hijackers is astonishing, whatever else you believe about the attacks. This is highly improbable. It seems to me they lied because we have the firefighter who claims he recovered it, and the Counterpunch to back it up.

This policeman Bernie Kerik, who was NYPD commissioner, said that the passport of "one of the hijackers" was found just after the attacks. Incidentally, he's in jail for fraud and lying now.

Who's telling the truth?
 

Jazzy

Closed Account
To not even find those black boxes at the WTC but manage to find a passport of one of the hijackers is astonishing, whatever else you believe about the attacks. This is highly improbable. It seems to me they lied because we have the firefighter who claims he recovered it, and the Counterpunch to back it up. This policeman Bernie Kerik, who was NYPD commissioner, said that the passport of "one of the hijackers" was found just after the attacks. Incidentally, he's in jail for fraud and lying now. Who's telling the truth?
You aren't.

Paper is the one material consistently found undamaged after high-speed airplane accidents. It happens due to its low density and high surface area. The other material consistently found in a least damaged state is lightweight insulation fibre (glass?) of the sort that airplanes use.. Don't you remember those scenes at the WTC of a blizzard of papers? Where do you think they came from? The offices blasted by the airplane impact/entry/explosion, perhaps? You know, the floors occupied, momentarily, by a complete thermo-baric fireball?

Go "research", go "figure", go, go, go...
 
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Eddie

Member
But it's not just any piece of paper. it's the unburned passport of one of the hijackers...and for that to happen AND the black boxes to not be recovered is highly improbable, not just the recovery of paper. Which other passports were recovered?
 
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Jazzy

Closed Account
But it's not just any piece of paper. it's the unburned passport of one of the hijackers...and for that to happen AND the black boxes to not be recovered is highly improbable, not just the recovery of paper. Which other passports were recovered?
No. You aren't reading what I have written.

If you had, you would have received an explanation for why the black boxes weren't found.

Does a "black box" have a "low density and high surface area"?

No.
 

Eddie

Member
Yes but as I said before... this is not just any piece of paper. it was a passport from the supposed hijacker. And for the black boxes to not even be found damaged is ridiculous.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Yes but as I said before... this is not just any piece of paper. it was a passport from the supposed hijacker. And for the black boxes to not even be found damaged is ridiculous.

Really? What forces were they designed to withstand? And what were they subjected to? (in the impact, the fire, and the collapse)?
 

Eddie

Member
I'm sure the impact was similar to the Pentagon which also hit by a plane and the black boxes were recovered.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I'm sure the impact was similar to the Pentagon which also hit by a plane and the black boxes were recovered.

Exactly the same? The black box may have hit a core column head on.

And then, there is a very significant difference in the collapse of the WTC vs. the collapse of the pentagon. Perhaps the box survived the initial impact, but how could it survive tens of thousands of tons of steel and concrete hitting it at 100 mph?
 

Jazzy

Closed Account
I'm sure the impact was similar to the Pentagon which also hit by a plane and the black boxes were recovered.
The difference being that not so much material fell on them.

Have you any idea of the damage that thousands of tons of steel work falling hundreds of feet can do? Firemen said that in general, nothing that wasn't steel was found in pieces larger than 3" square.

 

Jazzy

Closed Account
glad they found the passport or we'd have nothing!
That went out of a window, with thousands of sheets of paper, and insulation materials.

This, from an account of the crash of flight 93 (another very high-speed impact):

"Residents and workers at businesses outside Shanksville, Somerset County, reported discovering clothing, books, papers and what appeared to be human remains. Some residents said they collected bags-full of items to be turned over to investigators. Others reported what appeared to be crash debris floating in Indian Lake, nearly six miles from the immediate crash scene".

http://www.flight93crash.com/flight93_secondary_debris_field.html

All the light materials tend to be blown out by such impacts. In the case of Flight 93 this material drifted downwind for several miles.

The densest materials tend to go on their way, and carrying a much greater kinetic energy would damage themselves (and whatever they hit) all the more thoroughly.
 
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Eddie

Member
How do you know Mick, did you get hold of the black box? Seriously you can't claim to know that. nor, even if they were, that they were carrying them at the time.
 
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Fortean Slip

New Member
We "know" that because the evidence found points to that reasonable conclusion. You thinking that its weird that the same evidence in the same condition was not seen in two similar but ultimately different situations is not evidence of a conspiracy.

Also other forum members have already explained how density and surface area greatly effect the likelihood of something surviving an explosion. This is a point that you seen unwilling to acknowledge and quickly change the subject to the "officially story" canard whenever it is brought up. Deliberate or not, that is misdirection.
 

JRBids

Senior Member.
glad they found the passport or we'd have nothing!

We have videos of the hijackers going thru the airports, the seating plan, bin Laden's videos. . .



This policeman Bernie Kerik, who was NYPD commissioner, said that the passport of "one of the hijackers" was found just after the attacks. Incidentally, he's in jail for fraud and lying now.

Who's telling the truth?

He's out now.

You make it sound as if because he was in jail it had something to do with finding the passport.

I know, how lucky! the only passport we find links right back to the hijackers

There was also the ID found from at least one person, a woman who was on the plane. I believe she was a student.

How do you know Mick, did you get hold of the black box? Seriously you can't claim to know that. nor, even if they were, that they were carrying them at the time.

Would you have to get ahold of a black box yourself before you believed on was found? Is that what you are saying?
 
Eddie for anyone to say that it's "reasonable" in any way to find the passport tells you what this site is really about. Not only is a passport nothing close to a piece of paper in terms of surface area and density just pull yours out and feel it. Regular pieces of paper yes totally. But this would have been in the guys wallet or pocket....how many other specific documents of anyone else on any of those planes were found mick and jazzy? I would bet none or they would have compared that by now as evidence it makes sense we found his passport. To say it would make sense something like this would be found proves nothing but gullibility. And this coming from a guy who is overly skeptical of the conspiracy that 9/11 was an "inside job"
 

Grieves

Senior Member
I thought the whole passport find was a proven contrivance as of years and years back....?
Didn't they backpedal on the whole passport thing like, a few months after the attack? Or was that just a dream of reason I had..?
 

Fortean Slip

New Member
Except there are numerous instances of this exact thing happening to passports in plane crashes involving fires and explosions. The most recent example I can think of is the Sita Air Crash in 2012 and photographs like the one below.


This plane caught fire in midair and was completely in flames by the time it hit the ground and yet these survived.

Also you concede that regular documents such as paper could survive but that someone's passport could not because it was in their wallet or pocket? Ignoring the fact that I don't know how you manage to conclusively determine where this passport was when the crash happened (could it not have been in a bag or another piece of carry-on luggage?), what exactly is that based on? Please present your evidence.
 
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Well just basic common sense would tell you where the passport would be if your going on a plane. Could it have been out sitting on his lap yes but you can decode that mystery hah.
As far as that plane crash hey you can say what you like but in the 9/11 instance nothing was found bigger than small pieces of even steel and metal...if the bodies were destroyed anything on the person would have been destroyed in the same way and it would only make sense for him to have his passport in his wallet pocket or luggage if there is any evidence to support something other than the norm you present that, because I'm the one presenting what would make sense. S show me something to suggest in this specific case that other objects similar to a passport(not paper) that were found. See previous video jazzy posted showing the missile strike that would have been double that per plane impact it's in the history
 
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