DEBUNKED - 9/11 aircraft black boxes weren't recovered

Eddie

Member
actually black boxes were missing during the Seal Team Six Schnook Helicopter RPG shoot down too... all 30 Americans dead and no black box found.
article right here: http://thehill.com/homenews/house/313039-congress-to-probe-lethal-seal-crash

"Their bodies were later recovered, but the helicopter’s black box was not. Pentagon officials have said that it could not be recovered, citing a flash flood that happened soon after the assault."
All the bodies were cremated. The Pentagon has defended the cremation to the soldiers’ families, saying the bodies were badly burned.

Chaffetz, however, said he has seen a photo of a deceased SEAL that was not.

“The body I saw didn’t need to be cremated,” Chaffetz said, adding that the Department of Defense’s explanation of its failure to find the helicopter’s black box seems “awfully odd.”

Oh the same Seal Team that killed Osama bin laden? It couldn't be...
 

Freak

Active Member
So, out of curiosity, what do you think could have possibly been on the bodies which required cremation to cover up?

For that matter what would the black boxes tell us?

That article seems to be saying that the "cover up" is more about Afghani soldiers possibly selling information about where/when SEAL team 6 would be, and the team being specifically targeted due to it's involvement in the OBL killing.

While the above scenario is entirely plausable, none of that would be apparent in a black box or on a body.
 

Landru

Moderator
Staff member
They look pretty unscathed to me. Most ids look pretty scrunched up when they come from a wallet. Do you have any evidence to suggest that the passport was planted?
 

JRBids

Senior Member.
They look pretty unscathed to me. Most ids look pretty scrunched up when they come from a wallet. Do you have any evidence to suggest that the passport was planted?

And if it was planted, wouldn't they have singed an edge or something?
 
Evidence it was planted what a joke. So frustrating. Of all the things that were found and this soon after it happened and its one the hijackers passports. It's like shit from a bad Steven seagal movie.(there are a couple good ones)
 

Landru

Moderator
Staff member
Evidence it was planted what a joke. So frustrating. Of all the things that were found and this soon after it happened and its one the hijackers passports. It's like shit from a bad Steven seagal movie.(there are a couple good ones)
So you don't have any evidence then.
 

Boodles

Banned
Banned
Hey, I wasn't aware of any time rules. My bad. Oops.
But a tip round the time problem - YT has a bar of stills above the time slider which allows you to effortlessly home in on relevant areas. There were two relevant points a) the aircraft went supersonic without breaking up and b) when it hit the field in a vertical dive it scattered paper for about a square mile.
I certainly didn't expect any one to watch the whole thing, unless they were like me, avidly interested in the forensics and origins of disaster, which I confess is somewhat extreme behavior.
The last vid I posted was 10 seconds long. Forgive me. :)

Youtube recently added a function to sharing (just a box to tick) where the relevant starting point is embedded within the URL tag, triggering the browser to automatically start the clip there, rather than the beginning, which is useful. I say recently but it may have been there for years (I only noticed it popping up a couple of months back).
 

JRBids

Senior Member.
Evidence it was planted what a joke. So frustrating. Of all the things that were found and this soon after it happened and its one the hijackers passports. It's like shit from a bad Steven seagal movie.(there are a couple good ones)

You can't prove it was planted, then, and no one else can either. And the evidence of all that other ID that survived you are now handwaving away.
 

anna layloria

Banned
Banned
maybe you guys should watch this part... black box missing, eye in sky shuts off for 10 mins and entire seal team six in that helicopter DEAD ....
1:04:00-1:13:00 (black box time 1:06:19)
 
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Eddie

Member
So, out of curiosity, what do you think could have possibly been on the bodies which required cremation to cover up?

For that matter what would the black boxes tell us?

That article seems to be saying that the "cover up" is more about Afghani soldiers possibly selling information about where/when SEAL team 6 would be, and the team being specifically targeted due to it's involvement in the OBL killing.

While the above scenario is entirely plausable, none of that would be apparent in a black box or on a body.

Yeh, so the body of OBL, one of the biggest criminals in US history was simply dumped at sea. What a joke. And then they burned the bodies of the SEAL team 6 members who supposedly killed him. Big coincidence. Anyway how exactly does cremating bodies that don't need to be cremated work as a cover up of of Afghani soliders selling information?

A black box would give us better information of how they died as would the bodies. You would obviously want that covered up if they were deliberately set up and killed because of their supposed involvement in killing OBL.
 

Freak

Active Member
Yeh, so the body of OBL, one of the biggest criminals in US history was simply dumped at sea. What a joke.

I agree, what they should have done was use all female personnel, all on their periods, as funeral detail. Laid him on a pigskin blanket, had the girls piss on him, cover him in freshly used tampons, wrap it all up together, weight the thing to make sure he faced down when he hit bottom, THEN throw him in. Film it, and sell it on DVD/Blu-Ray. Could have fixed the economy. Hell I'd have bought 5 copies.

And then they burned the bodies of the SEAL team 6 members who supposedly killed him. Big coincidence.

Which of those killed in the helo were involved in the Bin Laden raid? I was unaware they had released that info. In fact your own link states it was unclear and "One source said there were at least a couple who were involved in both." So we don't actually know. A SEAL Team isn't just 10 guys, it's nearly 100, 79 were involved in the Bin Laden raid, and only 17 SEALs were killed in the Chinook crash, only 15 of which were from ST6. If they were trying to cover up something involving Bin Laden, why would you only take out a few of the people involved, rather than all of them? Especially considering these are guys who tend to be pretty loyal to each other, and if they thought there was some sort of grand conspiracy to kill a few of them because of what they know of the OBL raid, they'd surely say something about it. And it's not all that big of a coincidence when you consider that SEALS are in a pretty high risk MOS.

Anyway how exactly does cremating bodies that don't need to be cremated work as a cover up of of Afghani soldiers selling information?

Good question. The answer? It doesn't. And that was my point. There would be nothing on the bodies that would give away anything that article was questioning, or anything relevant for that matter. So the idea of the cremation being a cover up is bull.

A black box would give us better information of how they died as would the bodies. You would obviously want that covered up if they were deliberately set up and killed because of their supposed involvement in killing OBL.

Unless you think the pilots deliberately crashed it, or it was somehow remotely controlled, the black boxes wouldn't tell us anything useful in this context. They couldn't differentiate between getting shot down by insurgents, Afghani forces, US troops, or the CIA.

The bodies would have none of that info either, about the only thing they could tell us is if they died from impact trauma, burning, or possibly the RPG itself.

For the record, I wouldn't be surprised if they were set up. Not by us, but by some of the Afghanis. And the statement that ST6 wasn't being targeted was most likely bull as well. It's likely they said that as not to overly worry the families of those in the unit. The SEALs themselves were probably told different.
 

Avionics Tech

New Member
lol no shit... most of those were in the ocean or sea
Most but not all, so now I suspect you will just move the goal posts.
Of the 13 entries on that list, 8 involve water (your "most"). Let's look at the other 5 (the "all"):

The Pel-Air aircraft was ditched in water and no recovery effort was made;

Eastern 980: Crash site inaccessible due to high altitude;

El Al 1862: One box found;

MK 1602: FDR Recovered;

Dana Air 992: CVR Recovered.

In 2 of the 8 incidents that involve water (not counting Pel-Air), one of the two recorders was recovered. In the other 6, neither recorder was found.

Thus, according to this list, AA11 and UA175 were the first AND ONLY times in history that NEITHER the CVR nor the FDR were recovered from an accessible crash site.

To say that NONE of the four WTC recorders was even recovered is unimaginable. Whether or not they could SURVIVE and still be readable is one thing. But to say they ALL "vanished" is beyond belief. We KNOW the fire did not damage them, as the jet fuel was, in theory, the hottest burning substance in the crash. And they are DEFINITELY built to withstand jet fuel fires.

Also, lets examine the impact and its survivability. Planes crash into mountains at high speed, and the boxes are recovered. UA93 crashed into the ground in PA at an estimated 563mph, and both the CVR and FDR were recovered. AA77 crashed into the Pentagon at 530mph, punching a hole through SIX steel reinforced concrete walls (far more than the WTC aircraft had to penetrate), and both recorders were recovered. So, what was it about the WTC crashes that was unique in the annals of history that made ALL FOUR recorders irretrievable? Not UNREADABLE, IRRETRIEVABLE!
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Relevance? Did the building collapse cause them all to disappear?

The building collapse would have subjected them to stresses beyond their design capacity. Remember it was capable of bending two foot thick girders in half.

Look at what just the impact did to Flight 77's CVR:


Here are the specifications as per EUROCAE ED-55 and ED-56a
http://visualjournalism.com/wp-content/uploads/Flight_Data_Recorder_(SSFDR).pdf
500 lb from 10 feet is just a tiny fraction of the forces in the building collapse. Try 50,000 lb from 1,000 feet.

Impact forces (i.e. a crash) are very different from the penetration and crushing forces (tons of steel falling on the box at 100 mph)

The data recorders are basically just steel boxes. They did not have a chance.
 

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JRBids

Senior Member.
Of the 13 entries on that list, 8 involve water (your "most"). Let's look at the other 5 (the "all"):
So, what was it about the WTC crashes that was unique in the annals of history that made ALL FOUR recorders irretrievable? Not UNREADABLE, IRRETRIEVABLE!


Interesting way that you handwave 2 110 story buildings on them after being subjected to intense fires.
 

Avionics Tech

New Member
The building collapse would have subjected them to stresses beyond their design capacity. Remember it was capable of bending two foot thick girders in half.

Look at what just the impact did to Flight 77's CVR:


Here are the specifications as per EUROCAE ED-55 and ED-56a
http://visualjournalism.com/wp-content/uploads/Flight_Data_Recorder_(SSFDR).pdf
500 lb from 10 feet is just a tiny fraction of the forces in the building collapse. Try 50,000 lb from 1,000 feet.

Impact forces (i.e. a crash) are very different from the penetration and crushing forces (tons of steel falling on the box at 100 mph)

The data recorders are basically just steel boxes. They did not have a chance.
The issue isn't whether the units survived and were still capable of "complete data recovery" (the parameters you've quoted), but, rather, the idea that NO PART of any ONE of the four units was ever recovered, as the laughable 9/11 Commission Report claims. They hand picked through much of the rubble and were able to find minute pieces of human tissue and bone (which have far, far less resistance to such stresses and conditions), but couldn't find any remnants of either one of the recorders? In any other instance, recovery of the recorders would be a top priority. But, since no government agency ever had any interest or intent to conduct a real investigation of 9/11, I guess finding the boxes wasn't that important.

And you DON'T want to compare the WTC crashes to the Pentagon one! That story is even MORE unimaginable.
 
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Freak

Active Member
Again, the boxes are usually used to determine the causes of a crash.The cause of these were known. So it's understandable that they wouldn't assign the same priority to finding them as in a normal crash where they were trying to determine the cause. It would have been nice to get a more accurate timetable/information for the hijackings, and they certainly could have helped with that, but it wasn't strictly neccesary.

I also imagine that it would require a different skill set to differentiate a piece of a damaged FDR/CVR from building debris than it would doing the same for human remains. I, for example wouldn't have had a clue that picture above was a black box if I hadn't been told.

But let's forget all that for a moment, and assume you're right. Not finding them means there was a cover up... What do you believe was being covered up? What could have been on them to give the operation away?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
The issue isn't whether the units survived and were still capable of "complete data recovery" (the parameters you've quoted), but, rather, the idea that NO PART of any ONE of the four units was ever recovered, as the laughable 9/11 Commission Report claims. They hand picked through much of the rubble and were able to find minute pieces of human tissue and bone (which have far, far less resistance to such stresses and conditions), but couldn't find any remnants of either one of the recorders? In any other instance, recovery of the recorders would be a top priority. But, since no government agency ever had any interest or intent to conduct a real investigation of 9/11, I guess finding the boxes wasn't that important.

Quite the opposite, they were specifically looking for the cockpit voice recorder when sifting through the rubble. But it had more than likely been reduced to unidentifiable bits of metal in thousands of tons of similar looking debris.

Why would they deliberately pretend they could not find it? If there was a conspiracy the sensible thing would be to pretend to find it destroyed.

What exactly would you expect it to look like after the collapse and then weeks in underground fires? What would a piece look like?
 

Avionics Tech

New Member
Again, the boxes are usually used to determine the causes of a crash.The cause of these were known. So it's understandable that they wouldn't assign the same priority to finding them as in a normal crash where they were trying to determine the cause. It would have been nice to get a more accurate timetable/information for the hijackings, and they certainly could have helped with that, but it wasn't strictly neccesary.

I also imagine that it would require a different skill set to differentiate a piece of a damaged FDR/CVR from building debris than it would doing the same for human remains. I, for example wouldn't have had a clue that picture above was a black box if I hadn't been told.

But let's forget all that for a moment, and assume you're right. Not finding them means there was a cover up... What do you believe was being covered up? What could have been on them to give the operation away?
Even if you know the cause of the crash, the information they contain can still be extremely valuable, especially in this case, the CVR's. Being able to hear what actually was said on the flight deck in those final 30 minutes would have been more than "nice" in a REAL investigation. A REAL investigation into the events of 9/11 would have focused highly on the data from the CVR's and FDR's. So it is logical to conclude that, assuming you are actually planning to conduct a REAL investigation in the first place, finding the recorders would be a priority and not finding them would not be so easily dismissed.

No, not finding them does not mean there was a cover up, finding them and reporting they were not found does suggest it, though. As for what they may contain that would be damning to the official story would be speculation. Regardless, they would contain the TRUTH regardless of which side that supports. And the truth is all I am interested in.
 
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JRBids

Senior Member.
Even if you know the cause of the crash, the information they contain can still be extremely valuable, especially in this case, the CVR's. Being able to hear what actually was said on the flight deck in those final 30 minutes would have been more than "nice" in a REAL investigation. A REAL investigation into the events of 9/11 would have focused highly on the data from the CVR's and FDR's. So it is logical to conclude that, assuming you are actually planning to conduct a REAL investigation in the first place, finding the recorders would be a priority and not finding them would not be so easily dismissed.

No, not finding them does not mean there was a cover up, finding them and reporting they were not found does suggest it, though. As for what they may contain that would be damning to the official story would be speculation. Regardless, they would contain the TRUTH regardless of which side that supports. And the truth is all I am interested in.


What might have been heard that would have been damning to the official story? "We are taking over this plane, just like George told us to do?" "OK, let's fly to the Arctic and execute the passengers while the missile hits the building?"
Give me an example of something.
 

Freak

Active Member
Even if you know the cause of the crash, the information they contain can still be extremely valuable, especially in this case, the CVR's. Being able to hear what actually was said on the flight deck in those final 30 minutes would have been more than "nice" in a REAL investigation. A REAL investigation into the events of 9/11 would have focused highly on the data from the CVR's and FDR's. So it is logical to conclude that, assuming you are actually planning to conduct a REAL investigation in the first place, finding the recorders would be a priority and not finding them would not be so easily dismissed.

So are you saying that a REAL investigation is impossible without them?

No, not finding them does not mean there was a cover up, finding them and reporting they were not found does suggest it, though.

Perhaps I should have put not finding them in quotations. Whether they didn't find them, or they did find them and covered it up is what we're discussing right?

As for what they may contain that would be damning to the official story would be speculation.

Claiming they were found and then covered up is speculation as well.

And the truth is all I am interested in.

We already have the truth, some just don't want to believe it. If they had found all the boxes, I'm sure that would be suspicious to some people.


As Mick said, if they found them, and were worried that they had incriminating evidence on them, why not just say they were unreadable? The idea that they were found and reported missing involves a lot more people, as anyone searching for them would have to be in on the cover up.
 

JRBids

Senior Member.
As Mick said, if they found them, and were worried that they had incriminating evidence on them, why not just say they were unreadable? The idea that they were found and reported missing involves a lot more people, as anyone searching for them would have to be in on the cover up.

What difference does it make? If they found them and let everyone hear the recordings the truthers would say they were faked. It doesn't matter, nothing will change their minds.
 

Avionics Tech

New Member
What might have been heard that would have been damning to the official story? "We are taking over this plane, just like George told us to do?" "OK, let's fly to the Arctic and execute the passengers while the missile hits the building?"
Give me an example of something.
What part of "I'm not going to speculate" don't you understand? All I'm questioning is the the idea that there were four recorders somewhere in that rubble pile and no trace of even ONE of them was found, despite the fact that they are built to withstand tremendous forces and still have retreivable data. I'm not saying these should have been readable, and their readability is irrelevant. I just find it interesting that, for the apparent first time in history, neither of the recorders were recovered in an instance where their location was known and accessable. And it, technically, happened twice.

Mick said
...they were specifically looking for the cockpit voice recorder...

Freak said
...it's understandable that they wouldn't assign the same priority to finding them as in a normal crash...
suggesting his beliefs are that they weren't really looking for them. Which is it? Even those on the same side of the issue can't agree, how do you expect those with differing views to agree with you?
 

Freak

Active Member
LOL... yea, WE can't agree. How long do you think it would take to list all the different conspiracy theories? I never said they didn't look for them, just that they weren't crucial to the investigation of who did it.

Are you not speculating when you claim something is fishy about them supposedly not being found?
 

MikeC

Closed Account
I'm not saying these should have been readable, and their readability is irrelevant. I just find it interesting that, for the apparent first time in history, neither of the recorders were recovered in an instance where their location was known and accessable. And it, technically, happened twice.

While their location was known and accessible their actual continued existence seems to have been the problem. there were parts of the aircraft that were a great deal more solidly built than the recorders that were destroyed so as to be unidentifiable - it requires no great imagination to consider that eth recorders may have suffered similarly.
 

Mumbles

Active Member
I just find it interesting that, for the apparent first time in history, neither of the recorders were recovered in an instance where their location was known and accessable.

That's arguable at best in my opinion. Prior to the collapse the last known location (at the impact sites) was estimable to a degree, but they certainly were not accessible. Post collapse, if they survived, the location of the recorders was neither known nor necessarily accessible.
 

Avionics Tech

New Member
That's arguable at best in my opinion. Prior to the collapse the last known location (at the impact sites) was estimable to a degree, but they certainly were not accessible. Post collapse, if they survived, the location of the recorders was neither known nor necessarily accessible.
By "known and accessible" I mean as opposed to all the others that were not recovered because they were (are) at the bottom of an ocean or on a mountain top.

The location of ALL FOUR of these was certainly known. They were, in theory, in the building prior to its collapse. Post, collapse, they were in the rubble pile. Is there somewhere else they could have gone that I've missed?

As for accessible, the rubble pile was NOT at the bottom of an ocean or on a mountain top somewhere. The searchers meticulously picked through that pile for months and were able to identify, as I've said before, small bits of human tissue and bone. Even if, as Mick as "suggested", the remains of the recorders were unrecognizable as such, they were still accessible and someone undoubtedly had their hands on them at some point. Sounds accessible to me.
 

Freak

Active Member
Well, there were pieces of aircraft thrown clear of the towers in the initial impact. Earlier this year a part from one of the planes was found in a space between buildings. So it is possible that not all of them were actually in the building. Who knows, there may be one hidden on a roof somewhere waiting to be found. Though I'm sure if they did find one that way it would launch a ton of conspiracy theories.

Though I'd say it's highly unlikely all of them would be ejected.
 

Mumbles

Active Member
The location of ALL FOUR of these was certainly known. They were, in theory, in the building prior to its collapse. Post, collapse, they were in the rubble pile. Is there somewhere else they could have gone that I've missed?

It was only known in the sense that they would be "around here somwhere":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:W..._Attacks_With_Original_Building_Locations.jpg

This is almost literal needle in a haystack stuff. And that's assuming they survived the impact, assuming they survived the fire, assuming they survived the collapse, assuming they survived post collapse processes in the pile. There are a lot of assumptions that need to be treated as fact to conclude that the recorders were just waiting to be found in the pile, let alone in a functional state. FDR's are neither indestructible or always located. That they weren't found at the WTC doesn't surprise me a bit, especially given the unprecedented nature of the event.
 

Mumbles

Active Member
Oh the same Seal Team that killed Osama bin laden? It couldn't be...

They weren't necessarily the same individuals. They belonged to different units within the same overall DEVGRU organisational structure, and as others have pointed out, more were involved in the OBL raid than were killed on the Schnook (sic).
 

Avionics Tech

New Member
While their location was known and accessible their actual continued existence seems to have been the problem. there were parts of the aircraft that were a great deal more solidly built than the recorders that were destroyed so as to be unidentifiable - it requires no great imagination to consider that eth recorders may have suffered similarly.
You seem to disagree with Mumbles. You state the recorders' locations were known and accessible, Mumbles says they weren't. Again, even those who agree with each other can't agree with each other.

As for parts' "continued existence", you're beginning to sound like a "conspiracy theorist". Everything that was in those buildings that did not burn in the fires should have been in that pile somewhere. They can't just cease to exist.
Well, there were pieces of aircraft thrown clear of the towers in the initial impact. Earlier this year a part from one of the planes was found in a space between buildings. So it is possible that not all of them were actually in the building. Who knows, there may be one hidden on a roof somewhere waiting to be found. Though I'm sure if they did find one that way it would launch a ton of conspiracy theories.

Though I'd say it's highly unlikely all of them would be ejected.
If they had been ejected from the buildings, it is likely they would have been found and relatively in tact. Unless they managed to find some obsure hiding place, like that piece of flap that was found recently, they would have been rather conspicuous. They are designed to withstand greater forces than they would have encountered had they been ejected. Therefore, it is logical to conclude that they did remain within the buildings.
 

Avionics Tech

New Member
It was only known in the sense that they would be "around here somwhere":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:W..._Attacks_With_Original_Building_Locations.jpg

This is almost literal needle in a haystack stuff. And that's assuming they survived the impact, assuming they survived the fire, assuming they survived the collapse, assuming they survived post collapse processes in the pile. There are a lot of assumptions that need to be treated as fact to conclude that the recorders were just waiting to be found in the pile, let alone in a functional state. FDR's are neither indestructible or always located. That they weren't found at the WTC doesn't surprise me a bit, especially given the unprecedented nature of the event.
As I have stated, their functionality is not at question, only their existance. Since they are built to withstand the forces they encountered in the initial impact with the towers and still be functional, it is reasonable to conclude that they would have been found relatively in tact had the buildings not collapsed. The fires are not an issue as they are, again, built to withstand jet fuel fires.

Therefore the "wild card" is what effect the collapse of the building would have had on them. Were the forces impacted upon them by the collapse sufficient to obliterate any trace of them? All FOUR of them?

As for the recorders not always being found, this is the first time in history that NEITHER has been found. And, as previously stated, those that have not been found before were in water or on an inaccessible mountain. Neither of those factors were present at ground zero.
 
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Greylandra Debunked: media headline "Judea declares war on Germany" [boycott] Conspiracy Theories 20
Mick West Discovery Channel's "Contact: Declassified Breakthrough" was debunked 2.5 years ago UFOs, Aliens, Monsters, and the Paranormal 8
Joe Hill Debunked: "The North Face of Building 7 Was Pulled Inward" 9/11 66
A Debunked : Fake Set Moon Landing with TV Camera and Stairs Conspiracy Theories 3
Mick West Debunked: Photo with Sun Rays at Odd Angles Flat Earth 0
Staffan Debunked: Wikileaks releases unused footage of moon landing (Capricorn One movie scenes) Conspiracy Theories 2
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