Clouds over Mount Shasta - Dissipation Trail?

[AmberRobot]

From a glider pilot's article on seeing air wave movement:

Tha accompanying photo:

Another photo, same website:


By the way, I found this by googling "turbulent cloud over mountain."

I was doing a simile search and initially referred to what I was seeing as rotor clouds but I think those kind of spin off the backside and are different form The turbulence just under the lenticular cloud, like the photos I have posted.

 

[Mkitz]

Thank you for your reply, the cloud patterns I refer to unique are within the laminar flow or below the laminar glow, next to the mountain. The turbulence of this flow will typically disrupt the formation of patterns although the leeward edge can produce interesting vortexes. The closer the air flow is to the mountain the more the jagged peak with disrupt any patterns. The lenticular cloud you posted is no doubt spectacular but is thousands of feet above the peaks.

Another point is that the patterns visible the photos I’ve posted are not hidden under the dome like shape or mushroom shspe of a lenticular cloud. That morning the lenticular cloud rotated and opened a window above the mountain in plain view. In fact there is just narrow band of cloud above the window. There is nothing to occlude the view except for the fact that the cloud layer was so thin that morning sunlight was so bright the human eye could not see the patterns, unless the high speed reduced the glare. Had these patterns occurred later in the day they would have been clearly visible.

What seems unusual to me is that in this window the rushing air currents across the speak were deflected and a the window was an area of relative calm where patterns could appear and disappear. Those patterns lasted just seconds and were replaced by new patterns, it is watching a movie on a screen. No doubt shooting at 1/4000th a second freezed the action and otherwise the images would have been blurred. Canon has an electronic shutter that can shoot at 1/64000th of a second. My shutter speed is normal for modern equipment. If the glare of the sun had not been so intense the hikers on the mountain could have seem quite a spectacle.

I have not seen other cases where a lenticular cloud rotates and compresses itself. The second image posted above shows the typical steady flow of moisture over the v+crest of the mountain and that can last for two hours, as stated above. í posted images were there is a dramatic rotation in the cloud that eventually opens a window that persists for over an hour. It is not to say that clouds font rotate as tornadoes do. The rotation is unique in a lenticular cloud and notice how it feathers out at the bottom revealing different layers as it rotates. Eventually the tube structure emerges from the rotation and later a very narrow funnel extend to the mountain. Hope this helps and I appreciate the comments, they help me clarify my understanding.

 

[Trailspotter]

I have checked satellite images for clouds near Mt Shasta on the date 28-Jun-2020. There were some hanging on the opposite side of the mountain at midday and later, but they looked like ordinary cumulus rather than lenticular clouds.

The earliest image by Terra was taken at about 19:15 UTC = 12:15 PDT.

from NASA WorldView: https://go.nasa.gov/3FLm8co

There are archive images from geostationary satellites, e.g., GOES-17 (GOES-WEST), corresponding to the exact time of filming, but I haven't figured out how to access the full-size images. Here is a link to one of the archives:
https://inventory.ssec.wisc.edu/inventory/#search&start_time:2020-06-28 00:00;end_time:2020-06-28 23:59;satellite:GOES-17;

 

[Mkitz]

Amazing the information you can, thank for sharing. Please see arrow pointing two repeating patterns??>

 

[deirdre]

Thank you for your reply, the cloud patterns I refer to unique are within the laminar flow or below the laminar glow, next to the mountain.

who are you talking to?

 

[deirdre]

Please see arrow pointing two repeating patterns??>

i dont see a match with your arrow. what does the exif data say are the time stamps on those two photos?

 

[AmberRobot]

i dont see a match with your arrow. what does the exif data say are the time stamps on those two photos?

and is the sepia looking photo (photo2) also on the leeward edge? i can tell location in the first photo but not the second.

The second is little more zoomed in. If you look toward bottom right you can identify the same rocky bulge in both photographs.

Turbulence is fractal so it would be unsurprising to see similar patterns repeated and even on multiple scales.

These images seem to be consistent with the fact that turbulence forms under a lenticular cloud, often producing “rotor clouds” also, and similar to other photographs and videos found easily on the web. At best what is being seen is unusual but highly doubtful to be unique.

 

[deirdre]

If you look toward bottom right you can identify the same rocky bulge in both photographs.

yea i snaged it to see them side by side and must have not grabbed the jut. i do see them and edited my comment . thanks.

 

[Mkitz]

Deirdre, the two images posted above are separated by 88 frames. Thank you.

 

[Trailspotter]

Amazing the information you can, thank for sharing. Please see arrow pointing two repeating patterns??>

The 'pattern' in the first photo looks very much like a linear vortex with entrained condensation in its core. It is similar to wing vortices behind aircraft, which are fairly often visualised by entrained condensation. Such a vortex can also form in a rapid air flows around a stationary object, e.g., a mountain ridge. Sinusoidal (meandering) shapes of solitary vortices are due to their intrinsic instability.

 

[Mkitz]

Hi Trailspotter, I was pointing to similarity between two specific area in the two photos. Thank you.


Below is a link to what is more typical of a lenticular cloud. Notice the randomness of the lee side.

Source: https://www.instagram.com/p/Cdy7_9CrIKm/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY%3D&epik=dj0yJnU9TmN5V1Jyb2tuSkF1c2k2NUNxcUZUdUZlYUZjLTAwdE4mcD0wJm49YkwydGc1SmZtWGFZdXNLcjZ2a0VPdyZ0PUFBQUFBR09YOVJz

Also, what would be your reaction if you saw this toward the summit? Cropped section. Three hikers on the ridge.

 

[deirdre]

Notice the randomness of the lee side.

you dont see repeating patterns in your instagram video?

 

[Trailspotter]

Hi Trailspotter, I was pointing to similarity between two specific area in the two photos. Thank you.


Below is a link to what is more typical of a lenticular cloud. Notice the randomness of the lee side.

Hi Mkitz,
As a scientist you must be familiar with peer review and therefore should have expected that your contribution here wasn't likely to pass one.

You presented three observation and a narrative, connecting them in a single event. The first observation of a fast moving object that you saw on LCD screen is not documented. The second one of a supposed trail left by this object is present in only one photo. It does not look to me like a condensation trail, a.k.a. vapour trail, or like a dissipation trail, cut in a thin cloud, as your title suggests. A tapered trail-like feature in your photo could be just a play of light and shadows. There are similar features in different locations in the same and some of your other photos, albeit with less sharp edges (marked with red arrow below).

Your third observation is of an evolution of a cloud pattern above the mountain ridge, documented by a series of photos taken over two hour time. Your narrative implies this pattern is highly unusual and probably resulted from an impact of the object with the mountain. I do not quite understand why you keep suggesting to compare it with that was seen under a lenticular cloud, as you showed no evidence of such a cloud being over the mountain at the time of filming. I found a flickr image of the mountain taken at the midday of that day, it shows typical cumulus around it, in agreement with the satellite images.
Source: https://flic.kr/p/2jjy1iH

Anyway, I think that the presence or absence of a lenticular cloud is irrelevant here. Clouds are just parcels of a very humid air. Cloud patterns are actually patterns of airflow, visualised by condensation of water vapour. Changes of pressure and temperature in turbulent airflow can promote condensation at one place and dissipation in another, but ultimately the visible pattern will depend on actual amount of moisture. Visualisation of a fine structure would require just right amount of it: if air too dry, there will be clear air turbulence, if it's too humid, a thick cloud will mask all fine details.

Also, what would be your reaction if you saw this toward the summit? Cropped section. Three hikers on the ridge.

I saw something like this a few times in a flat country where I live - a dissipation of a very thin cloud layer, heated by the rising sun. There were fractal lace-like edges and holes before it completely disappeared.

 

[Mkitz]

Hi Trailspotter,
The cloud formations I photographed started from 8 am to 10 am, if you have access to satellite images from that time, it would confirm the presence of a lenticular cloud. My images are time stamped and I discussed this earlier with Deirdre, however, my camera was on Denver time, so the time stamp shows 9 am instead of 8 am. I have uploaded dozens of photos and screen shots of multiple frames that confirm the process of a lenticular cloud that compresses, rotates, sends out a tube formation and opens an area where the patterns appeared for two hours. You have dozens of images that show this.

As for the vapor trail, I witnessed a fast moving object and it coincides perfectly with the vapor trail it left. We have discussed at length the possibility that the vapor trail could be the shadow of a contrail and I think I provided arguments to discount that idea. You have my word that fast object was moving across the lcd screen and it coincides with the vapor trail. Of course, there is not way I can prove that and the vapor trail could be the result of all the things you mentioned. I have searched the internet extensively for a lenticular cloud that rotates and sends out a tube like structure. I have scanned the internet for instances where an area under a strong laminar flow produces a series of highly complex patterns off and on for two hours. I do not expect anyone to accept my word but the images are unique and no one has shown anything comparable. It is almost impossible to see patterns form under a laminar flow because the rushing air currents disrupt the formation of anything in their path. Yet, an area of relative calm opened under the laminar flow where the images I posted were captured.

I have reposted the image below that was taken shortly after the image pierced the cloud. It shows a very symmetrical fan like structure that moved upward from the ridge. If it were not for some of turbulence of the cloud above that was beginning to rotate, it would be almost be perfect in symmetry. This in itself is highly unusual and it wind currents and turbulence do not produce this degree of symmetry.

If you review the dozens of geometric patterns that I have posted and captured that morning, they are not typical of images associated with laminar flows or lenticular clouds. I never implied that this was irrefutable data, assumptions have to be made about the truthfulness of the observer, many images can be skillfully manipulated with photoshop. I have invited members of this website to post images forming below a lenticular cloud and above a mountain peak and none have been posted thus far. If this was such a common occurrence, surely someone in the last hundred years photographing lenticular clouds would have captured similar patterns under similar conditions. They have not.

What kind of forces of wind could produce the image posted in the fan shape? To say that it is fractal, in my mind, explains nothing, everything in nature is fractal and everything in nature obeys certain laws. Thank you for the time to analyze the images I have posted and the critique.

 

[Ann K]

I witnessed a fast moving object and it coincides perfectly with the vapor trail it left.

"The vapor trail it left" is a thing we've been trying to ascertain. It's the claim, not the conclusion. It might be worded better as "a thing that looks like a vapor trail".

 

[Trailspotter]

"The vapor trail it left" is a thing we've been trying to ascertain. It's the claim, not the conclusion. It might be worded better as "a thing that looks like a vapor trail".

Yes, this is an unsupported claim. How its author can be sure that

it coincides perfectly with the vapor trail it left

What kind of trail it was? The author first called it 'dissipation trail' in the title, but then switched to calling it 'vapour trail'. The latter is not the same as the former and neither actually looks (and behaves) like a thing in the photo. Captured well after "the object" was gone, but completely disappeared before the next photo was taken??

I doubt about it being any kind of trail, defined as the imprint left by an object moving through a media.

 

[Mkitz]

Trailspotter. There are some pints you raise that are the result of not having thread very closely. I never referred to the vapor trail as a dissipation trail and have no idea what the latter refers to. I never said the vapor trail was captured long after the object was gone. I caught the vapor trail within seconds of the object piercing the clouds. The vapor trail is present in only one image and the dynamic nature of the area where the vapor trail was captured, erased the vapor trail immediately. The patterns that were captured in one frame, over the two hours were mostly gone in the next and you see that in the screen shots I uploaded of the sequence of multiple frames. The way the called vapor trail is wide at the back and narrow at the front is consistent with fast movement of an object through a cloud. You are certainly entitled to doubt, but it would be best if you got your facts straight. Go back in the thread and you will find the member who said dissipation trail. I appreciate being challenged and many comments have been useful in making me realize the uniqueness of the events that unfolded that morning. No one however has yet produced complex patterns under a lenticular cloud and there seems to be a lot of dancing around the issue. Yet, I am accused of being evasive. Thank you just the same.

 

[deirdre]

I never referred to the vapor trail as a dissipation trail and have no idea what the latter refers to.

a dissipation trail, cut in a thin cloud, as your title suggests.

 

[deirdre]

I caught the vapor trail within seconds of the object piercing the clouds.

you do not know that.

 

[deirdre]

The way the called vapor trail is wide at the back and narrow at the front is consistent with fast movement of an object through a cloud

you really,really dont want to try to school Trailspotter on contrails. his NAME is Trail Spotter. and has been for 10 years on this site.

 

[deirdre]

No one however has yet produced complex patterns under a lenticular cloud and there seems to be a lot of dancing around the issue.

we have, but even better... YOU did in post #171.

 

[Ann K]

I caught the vapor trail within seconds of the object piercing the clouds.

But your original post says "However, weeks later I discovered the vapor trail left by the object and the vapor trail coincides perfectly with the trajectory of the object on the screen."

You don't have a picture of what you saw, but you want us to believe that a trail, seen weeks later, "coincides perfectly" with an object that you didn't photograph. Please forgive us for being skeptics, but how can we be otherwise?

 

[Mkitz]

Ann K, I explained in an early post that I had delay set up on the camera shutter to or event vibrations from blurring the image. If you back and look at my rig, you might appreciate how vibrations in the gear could blur the image. I did not have a cable release at the time. i have asked others to consider the rarity of the patterns first and I think that lends credibility to my story. Two hours of complex cloud patterns that have never been photographed under a lenticular cloud. A lenticular cloud that rotates and transforms into a tube like structure, which then opens up an area in the cloud that displays a series of patterns over two hours. if anything it is the cloud patterns that you should be skeptical of. How is ít with the tens of thousands of images of Mt Shasta, thus has never been captured before? Yet, some are hung up the vapor trail and accuse me of calling It one thing and then another, vapor trail to dissipation trail. It is i that should be skeptical of ability of some to appreciate an anomalous phenomenon for what is, anomalous and the distrust vblinds some to the obvious. My credentials are Ph.D. in experimental psychology with 40 years of teaching at the university level. I am a Professor of Psychology. At 72 years of age and deep religious faith, I have no interest in bamboozling others. I work in a field where most psychologist are skeptical of the notion that the self exists and the push back I receive here, pales by comparison. We live a world of of the collective denial of the beautiful and the transcendent. Thank you.

 

[Mkitz]

That is not my title, you are mistaken.

 

[deirdre]

That is not my title, you are mistaken.

you did not start this thread?

 

[Mkitz]

you really,really dont want to try to school Trailspotter on contrails. his NAME is Trail Spotter. and has been for 10 years on this site.

Trailspotter should be a bit more careful about making false attributions and then implying a person is being disingenuous. Please go back and figure out who introduced that term, you will see it was not me. I have no idea what it means. Thank you.

 

[deirdre]

I have no interest in bamboozling others

noone thinks you are "bamboozling". we think that a week or more later, you would not remember the exact path a millisecond blob took across your screen.

You also wouldnt remember the exact time you saw the blob to link it to the contrail picture.

We keep coming back to these two "events" because you are claiming these events caused your so called unusual "patterns". That's all.

 

[deirdre]

Trailspotter should be a bit more careful about making false attributions and then implying a person is being disingenuous. Please go back and figure out who introduced that term, you will see it was not me. I have no idea what it means. Thank you.

it's the title of the thread. you did not start the thread?

(PS it looks alot more like a distrail/dissipation trail than a vapour trail, so not sure why you are so upset with the term)

 

[AmberRobot]

In less than five minutes of googling I had found a video on the following site:

https://www.mysabah.com/wordpress/sabah-cloud-types/

It shows a lenticular cloud with turbulence underneath it, very similar to your photographs. I have no reason to believe what you saw was unique. Perhaps unusual to have been photographed like you did but considering what I have read about lenticular clouds and air flow over mountains it seems unsurprising that such turbulence would appear.

Since you are not an expert in this subject continuing to just ignore assert its uniqueness is not compelling. You are making an extraordinary claim to have seen something unique so the burden on you is to prove that. You can’t simply claim it just because you think we failed to easily find another example (even though we likely have).

 

[Mkitz]

In less than five minutes of googling I had found a video on the following site:

https://www.mysabah.com/wordpress/sabah-cloud-types/

It shows a lenticular cloud with turbulence underneath it, very similar to your photographs. I have no reason to believe what you saw was unique. Perhaps unusual to have been photographed like you did but considering what I have read about lenticular clouds and air flow over mountains it seems unsurprising that such turbulence would appear.

Since you are not an expert in this subject continuing to just ignore assert its uniqueness is not compelling. You are making an extraordinary claim to have seen something unique so the burden on you is to prove that. You can’t simply claim it just because you think we failed to easily find another example (even though we likely have).

Yes, lenticular clouds have fascinating shapes, but they do not rotate and extend tubes, see above. Another image to enjoy. It is this type of complex pattern, one of many, under the lenticular cloud that I have been claiming is unique. Nothing that has been posted in response to this request, has been of this complexity. Thank you.

 

[deirdre]

very similar to your photographs.

pretty similar indeed. but i think he expects a zoomed in photo, even though he hasnt presented us any zoomed in photos from other photographers.

 

[Mkitz]

pretty similar indeed. but i think he expects a zoomed in photo, even though he hasnt presented us any zoomed in photos from other photographers.

Hi Deirdre, the purpose of the image of mine you posted was to show the rotational movement. I don't see that in your. companion image. Again, there are wonderful lenticular cloud images and patterns, but not lenticular's that transform in complex ways. I cannot show you zoomed in photos from other photographers if they do not exist. Typically, a lenticular cloud is viewed from a wide angle and there are really no interesting parts to zoom in on. I. hope that makes sense. I have been trying to. make that point but it just is not coming through. I have scanned as many lenticular clouds over mountains that are available on the internet, pininterest has a nice collection. No one zooms in.Thanks, is that my fault?

 

[tinkertailor]

but they do not rotate and extend tubes,

Where are the tubes you are referring to? It's difficult to see what is abnormal here when you use descriptions for images--as you well know, we all perceive things differently.

Would it be possible for you to draw clear arrows on this image demonstrating the movement of the rotation and the tubes you see?

Maybe red arrpws for the rotation and blue for the tubes?

 

[AmberRobot]

Yes, lenticular clouds have fascinating shapes, but they do not rotate and extend tubes, see above. Another image to enjoy. It is this type of complex pattern, one of many, under the lenticular cloud that I have been claiming is unique. Nothing that has been posted in response to this request, has been of this complexity. Thank you.

Did you watch the video on that site?

If you are using the word “unique” similarly to the way one uses it in the context of snowflakes then I guess I can’t argue with you. I doubt I can find an image or video that shows *exactly* the same shape as your photo. Turbulence cause complex behaviors that are not likely to be reproduced exactly.

However, you have presented no compelling reason to believe that the specific turbulence you are seeing is in any way inconsistent with the normal behavior of air passing over a mountain.

 

[Mkitz]

Where are the tubes you are referring to? It's difficult to see what is abnormal here when you use descriptions for images--as you well know, we all perceive things differently.

Would it be possible for you to draw clear arrows on this image demonstrating the movement of the rotation and the tubes you see?

Maybe red arrpws for the rotation and blue for the tubes?

Where are the tubes you are referring to? It's difficult to see what is abnormal here when you use descriptions for images--as you well know, we all perceive things differently.

Would it be possible for you to draw clear arrows on this image demonstrating the movement of the rotation and the tubes you see?

Maybe red arrpws for the rotation and blue for the tubes?

Hi Tinkertailor, thank you from the inquiry. I posted these earlier, the top image preceded the bottom image by quite a few frames. The image with the vapor trail shows how the lenticular cloud appeared at the beginning of the two hour sequence. It is more typical of a lenticular shape and it transformed into the imagesm below. The lenticular clouds typical have a static shape, no doubt often very beautiful. I have yet to find a rotation of the entire lenticular cloud. The lee side can have rotor clouds. It is interesting to think of what will cause a large air mass to begin to rotate, what force is driving the rotation, there has to be a force to produce the rotation. How often have we seen the fanning out or layers at the bottom of the first image? Hope this helps.

 

[Mkitz]

Did you watch the video on that site?

If you are using the word “unique” similarly to the way one uses it in the context of snowflakes then I guess I can’t argue with you. I doubt I can find an image or video that shows *exactly* the same shape as your photo. Turbulence cause complex behaviors that are not likely to be reproduced exactly.

However, you have presented no compelling reason to believe that the specific turbulence you are seeing is in any way inconsistent with the normal behavior of air passing over a mountain.

Please see reply. to tinker sailor. Yes, I did look at the video and it is typical of a stationary lenticular cloud, I believe it is however speeded up. Thank you.

 

[deirdre]

Hi Deirdre, the purpose of the image of mine you posted was to show the rotational movement. I don't see that in your. companion image.

i dont care what the purpose of your post was, my image is an almost exact match to your "impossible" tructures under a 'lenticular' that you keep talking about. Don't ignore that, like you ignore all evidence provided, by moving the goalposts and changing my topic. Thanks.

and i would appreciate an answer:
DID YOU START THIS THREAD? it's a simple yes or no. Thank you.

also what date was this photo taken? Thank you.:

 

[deirdre]

rolling lenticular. because sometimes they roll


timestamp embedded : 2 seconds in
Source: https://youtu.be/xz-57-3FPPE?t=2

 

[Mkitz]

i dont care what the purpose of your post was, my image is an almost exact match to your "impossible" tructures under a 'lenticular' that you keep talking about. Don't ignore that, like you ignore all evidence provided, by moving the goalposts and changing my topic. Thanks.

and i would appreciate an answer:
DID YOU START THIS THREAD? it's a simple yes or no. Thank you.

also what date was this photo taken? Thank you.:

This image was taken this year on May 18th, I’m just replaced two small windows with one. I did start this thread, if by that you mean the initial post. Yes, I do see a slight roll in the lenticular, thank you for providing the video but I don’t see a major transformation in the cloud. It basically maintains the same shape. The two images I posted above at Tinkersailor's request, showa major a transformation in the cloud that rotates, compresses itself and which ultimately results in the cloud extending out a tube like structure. I do not see any cloud elsewhere posted on the internet doing this and following with complex cloud patterns for two hours. Thank you.

 

[Mkitz]

Also taken this summer on June 2nd. Airplane near thumb June 19th, also this summer.