Clouds over Mount Shasta - Dissipation Trail?

[Mkitz]

June 28th, [2020] morning, was photographing the submit of Mt. Shasta with a telescopic lens looking to capture hikers and on the camera screen I observed a fast moving object, circular in shape, but no details on the lcd screen. I was not able to photography the object because I had a two second delay on the camera to reduce vibration. However, weeks later I discovered the vapor trail left by the object and the vapor trail coincides perfectly with the trajectory of the object on the screen. Since it was early morning, viewing the mountain and the clouds above revealed no details with the naked eye because of the brightness of the sun shining on the clouds. I had to shoot at 1/4000 if a second to reveal any detail in the clouds. pThe first image is has the contrast boosted to show the vapor trail. The second image shows an pattern that emerged from the point at which the object would have impacted the mountain. There were hikers in the vicinity of the area that an object would have struck the mountain, about 13,000 ft in elevation and a short distance from the summit of Mt. Shasta that is over 14,000 ft. The object made no sound as it moving toward the mountain and there have been no reports from hikers indicating an impact. The vapor trail is in the right hand corner and you can observe the trail fanning out and narrowing at it moves inward.

The images were photographed in color but I converted them to black and white to enhance the details. I am a Professor of Psychology with a Ph.D. in experimental psychology and I am excited to be part of this forum. For the next two hours I photographed the clouds over the mountain as there was a constant change of interesting patterns in the clouds.

 

[Mkitz]

Additional image with hikers visible and no reports of any occurrences from point where whatever caused the vapor trail would have impacted.

 

[Mkitz]

This image was the first notable change in the area where the object producing the vapor trail would have tracked into. The only manipulation has been contrast and brightness. This is cropped and in the same area as the bloom or flower like shaMuch more to share if there is some interest. I have observed this mountain for years and nothing like this has been recorded. I have a home that lets me shoot from the comfort of my living room. These images were captured in 2020. Whatever object left the vapor trail through the clouds appears to have had an energetic effect on this area for two hours and hundreds of images were captured. The moisture stream passing over the. mountain was from left to right. Yet, many of the patterns recorded in this area are moving upward or from right to a left, in the opposite direction of the air flow, as in the case of the bifurcating pattern above that has the appearance of lightning. More to come.

 

[Mendel]

The second image shows an pattern that emerged from the point at which the object would have impacted the mountain.

I don't quite follow. Your pictures seem to show a mountain ridge, silhoutted dark against the clouds behind it. Am I seeing another part of the mountain outside of that ridge?

If not, it seems to me that any and all cloud pattern would, in 3D, continue behind that ridge, as would an aircraft leaving a vapor trail? it would simply fly straight and disappear in the cloud.

Yet, many of the patterns recorded in this area are moving upward or from right to a left, in the opposite direction of the air flow

a pattern is a wave, which is energy moving, and the direction of motion of the energy does not need to coincide with the motion of the matter carrying that wave. If you're frequently on the mountains, you've no doubt seen a standing wave on a bubbling brook before. Another example would be someone shouting against the wind.

 

[Ann K]

Perhaps that is what's called a "hole punch cloud", caused when the water vapor is super-cooled.

When the droplets freeze into heavier ice crystals they sink and leave holes in the cloud cover, and that's when we see mysterious holes with sinking centers of feathery precipitation. If the temperature, cloud thickness and wind direction are right, all these super-cooled water droplets need is an airplane and a bit of physics to go from liquid to ice and thus create hole-punch clouds.

When a plane is ascending or descending through a layer of altocumulus clouds, it can change the physical properties of cloud particles. It's the rearward force of the aircraft wings and propellers cutting through super-cooled water droplets that causes the necessary disturbance to cool the already super-cooled water droplets further (by around 36 degrees F or 20 degrees C). They freeze into heavier ice crystals and sink to Earth as snow or rain about 45 minutes later. For a short time, witnesses to this natural event see an unlikely circular or elliptical clearing in the clouds. As the air returns to its regular pressure and temperature, the hole-punch cloud disappears, leaving little evidence of its existence except photos and a few entertaining conspiracy theories.

https://science.howstuffworks.com/nature/climate-weather/atmospheric/hole-punch-clouds.htm

 

[Mkitz]

I don't quite follow. Your pictures seem to show a mountain ridge, silhoutted dark against the clouds behind it. Am I seeing another part of the mountain outside of that ridge?

If not, it seems to me that any and all cloud pattern would, in 3D, continue behind that ridge, as would an aircraft leaving a vapor trail? it would simply fly straight and disappear in the cloud.


a pattern is a wave, which is energy moving, and the direction of motion of the energy does not need to coincide with the motion of the matter carrying that wave. If you're frequently on the mountains, you've no doubt seen a standing wave on a bubbling brook before. Another example would be someone shouting against the wind.

Hi Mendel, thank you for your observation. The the clouds that are forming are directly over the mountain and it is the mountain peak that is shaping the clouds. You cannot get the deflection in the clouds without the mountain, there was a continuous arch of clouds above the mountain for almost two hours. The object penetrating the clouds had to be traveling at a great speed to produce a distinct vapor trail in the clouds. The cloud over the mountain was not static, but moving very fast across the peak. I shared the image with an ex top gun pilot and he assured me that no pilot would direct an aircraft directly toward a mountain at that steep an angle. I appreciate your comment, however, the ridge you see in the photo is quite wide, thousands of feet wide to be sure. the arecea where the moisture condethe grnses around the mountain peak is narrow by comparison. Observing the cloud above the mountain from ground, it appeared as very shallow and almost insignificant. I was using a 600mm telephoto lens that makes the cloud seem much thicker. Again, anyone viewing the cloud above the mountain would have thought nothing of it, all detail was undetectable because of the brightness from the sun behind the mountain. Only shooting at 1/4000 of a second under high magnification revealed the changing patterns. Best regards.

 

[deirdre]

The object penetrating the clouds had to be traveling at a great speed to produce a distinct vapor trail in the clouds.

what do you mean? aerodynamic contrails can form even with landing planes. planes that are landing cant be going that fast.

I shared the image with an ex top gun pilot and he assured me that no pilot would direct an aircraft directly toward a mountain at that steep an angle.

no offense, but you needed a top gun pilot to tell you that?

logic and eyes tell us the contrail is going over the mountain. can you show us some of the unmanipulated photos you took? (ps it looks like a contrail shadow in your manipulations)

add: viewing angle matters:

 

[Mkitz]

Deirdre, not very nice way to welcome a perspective member. To address your point about contrails in landing planes, the speed of the object had to be considerable to leave such a distinct vapor trail and you can see the expansion in the tail of the trail. As I said the stream of moisture coming across the mountain from left to right, was travelling a a considerable speed. I gentle descent of an aircraft would have any trail left behind immediately vanish. This is not a static cloud just hovering over the mountain. I have attached the original image, without the contrast manipulation. You want to direct your comment, logic over the mountain to Mendel, who speculated that cloud was not over the mountain. I responded to his comment. I believed this sight was populated by professionals, your comments hardly sound like the comments of a professional. I have a Ph.D. in experimental psychology and half a century in the field, over three decades as a university professor. I don't have to manipulate anything at this point in my life. Please consider a kinder and gentler approach. I am sure you have it in you.

 

[Mkitz]

Cloud starts to rotate, unmanipulated and very pleasing to the eye, after the vapor trail. Enjoy,

 

[tinkertailor]

Hello, Mkitz!

I was curious if you could visually point out where specifically the vapor trail is in your photo. I don't know clouds super well here, but this looks like the kind of thing I see often over large mountains often in photos and I want to make sure I'm getting the full picture. It may facilitate communication and understanding.

One of the things to keep in mind here is that we can only go off of the claims of evidence we are handed, and, to people who didn't see exactly what you saw when you saw it, this looks like an attractive photo of clouds interacting with a mountain, and perhaps not much else.

I am just seeking to understand. Welcome aboard!

 

[Mkitz]

Hello, Mkitz!

I was curious if you could visually point out where specifically the vapor trail is in your photo. I don't know clouds super well here, but this looks like the kind of thing I see often over large mountains often in photos and I want to make sure I'm getting the full picture. It may facilitate communication and understanding.

One of the things to keep in mind here is that we can only go off of the claims of evidence we are handed, and, to people who didn't see exactly what you saw when you saw it, this looks like an attractive photo of clouds interacting with a mountain, and perhaps not much else.

I am just seeking to understand. Welcome aboard!

Hi Tinkertailor, thank you for the welcome. I have reposted the iage with the contrasts increased. It is very faint in the previous image and in the exact location as the vapor trail in the high low contrast image. It took me over a week or more to find the vapor trail. It is easier to see when you have the full 150 mb image from a Fuji GF 50R medium format camera. Hope this helps.

 

[Mkitz]

The object piercing the cloud has some connection, in my mind, to the events that followed. I know, highly speculative. The image below is one of the transformations in the cloud patterns that captured after the vapor trail. I cannot emphasize that the cloud looked like an insignificant sliver over the mountain and the moisture continued to pass over the mountain, mostly unbroken for two hours. The cloud break up and then reform. I have not been able to find a cloud classification for many of the images. Most of the patterns were formed where the vapor trail pointed on this part of the ridge. My second hobby is photography and that morning my goal was to capture some hikers with a new lens that had arrived the previous afternoon. It was a mesmerizing experience, even though I had only a faint inkling of what was unfolding from the images on the camera LCD. I do not know how wind itself can produce these fairly symmetrical patterns, and upper envelope of the cloud that hovered over the vortex that opened in the underbelly was moving at considerable speed. Perhaps someone with meteorological experience can shed some insight. Thank you. In this image are a group of hikers, also cropped version follows. If you a six foot height for the hikers, you can get a sense how narrow the band is over the mountain. Few hundred feet in thickness?

 

[FatPhil]

The second image shows an pattern that emerged from the point at which the object would have impacted the mountain. There were hikers in the vicinity of the area that an object would have struck the mountain, about 13,000 ft in elevation and a short distance from the summit of Mt. Shasta that is over 14,000 ft.

Can someone with elite skills on the astro skymap websites confirm that if you extrapolate that line backwards, it intersects Arcturus, thus proving once and for all alien visitors.

The typo in your later response to @deirdre is hilarious, considering what you seem to be overlooking.

 

[Mkitz]

Fatphil, I have to agree the typo is amusing as well as your observation amount Arcturus. However, it was Mendel that questioned whether the cloud was directly over the mountain and Deirdreś caustic remark toward a senior member of the community is reprehensible. Try and focus on understanding what kind of terrestrial object could produce the vapor trail. Flattery will get you nowhere. Thank you.

 

[Mkitz]

Fatphil, to answer your astronomical quesiton, it was Venus not Arcturus that you should direct the angle of the vapor trail toward. Or the Seven Sisters.

2020, June 28: Brilliant Venus shines from low in the east-northeast among the stars of Taurus during morning twilight. The Pleiades appear above the planet.

Another image from that morning, a typical cloud you see above mountains. How does wind produce these shapes? I also included a screenshot of a series of images caught that morning.

 

[Mendel]

How does wind produce these shapes?

turbulence, likely caused by some obstacle, e.g. a mountain, or a passing aircraft

 

[Mendel]

However, it was Mendel that questioned whether the cloud was directly over the mountain

thank you for pointing out that one cloud is shaped like the ridge, and therefore probably located above it

it still looks to me that some other clouds may well be behind that ridge, and partially obscured by it

and the trail could well have passed above the ridge, with proper 3D perspective

 

[Ann K]

The object piercing the cloud has some connection, in my mind, to the events that followed. I know, highly speculative.

I've already offered the meteorological explanation of a hole punch cloud, which demonstrates exactly that behavior. Is there some reason you've eliminated the likelihood of that event? Bear in mind that you seem to be illustrating complex skies with more than one layer of clouds, so the sweeping arc over the mountain may not be a part of the turbulent layer.

 

[Landru]

I've already offered the meteorological explanation of a hole punch cloud, which demonstrates exactly that behavior. Is there some reason you've eliminated the likelihood of that event? Bear in mind that you seem to be illustrating complex skies with more than one layer of clouds, so the sweeping arc over the mountain may not be a part of the turbulent layer.

@MkitzI agree. You have been given some latitude here but it is time to provide some evidence to back your assertions.

 

[Mkitz]

Hi Ann, I understand the hole punch phenomenon you bring up. I thought you meant to point out how the vapor trail is produced. I apologize for not responding. I don't know if you are saying that the patterns in the clouds were all do to the hole punch. It is an interesting hypothesis, however, the patterns in the clouds lasted for two hours. Not sure if the hole punch could have that lasting of an effect. Thank you.

 

[Mkitz]

@MkitzI agree. You have been given some latitude here but it is time to provide some evidence to back your assertions.

Not sure the assertions you are referring to. I will be happy to respond, kindly clarify. Let me try. In any case, there is a vapor trail that was produced by s fast moving object. There is no report of an impact from the hikers near the likely impact zone. There were no sonic booms reported. After the vapor trail the cloud patterns persisted for two hours. My images are all time stamped. I was photographing about every 15 seconds and I will have a video that shows the transformations over the two hours.
The cloud formations are highly unusual and I back that assertion with the images I have posted. I am not an expert on clouds, but there are patterns in the clouds that appear unique and unusual. I'm sure there could be a wind from below, an upwelling, but wind is random in its motion and unlikely to produce the order in the patterns.
I saw an object moving at a hide speed and it was confirmed by the vapor trail. I have no way to back up my assertion other than the vapor trail. I don't believe the images I have presented could be produced with photoshop manipulation. They are too unique and unpredictable. I have not asserted anything other than the unusualness of the events. If you look at the multiple frames I uploaded, you can see some of the transformations. That represents about a minute. These were fast moving patterns. The amazing part is that I caught the vapor trail. I had a two second delay in my shutter.
I would be happy to answer any questions. Thank you.

 

[deirdre]

However, it was Mendel that questioned whether the cloud was directly over the mountain and Deirdreś caustic remark toward a senior member of the community is reprehensible.

i wasnt responding at to Mendel. some of that cloud still looks to be behind the mountain so i agree with Mendel completely.

If the clouds are moving left to right exceptionally fast, to me that is even more proof it is a contrail shadow (which it looks like in the unmanipulated photos too). so the actual contrail would be even higher up then the cloud. not that it would have to be higher not to be a plane crashing into the mountain.

p.s. you said you manipulated all the photos in your opening post, not sure why you are so defensive about being asked for the original photos, so that members can better see for themselves what is really going on. The original photos are much more helpful, thankyou for providing them.

 

[Mkitz]

This us equipment used. A Linhof 4x5 with a Fuji GF 50r medium format camera in place of 4x5 film. The lens was a 600 mm Nikkor large format lens. It was from this spot in the living room that the images were captured. Since ther is a lot of vibration and I did not have a cable release. I set the two second timer on the camera. The file sizes are all 149 mb and the images posted capture only a small part of the beauty. Thank you.

 

[deirdre]

Article:

Have you ever seen the "cap" over Mount Rainier?

Lenticular clouds, sometimes called "cap clouds," form over mountain peaks when moisture begins to increase in the upper levels of the atmosphere.

Lenticular clouds, or standing wave clouds, are associated with waves in the atmosphere. These develop when fast moving air aloft is forced up over a physical obstacle, such as a mountain range or volcano.

Source: https://www.king5.com/article/weather/weather-blog/what-is-a-lenticular-cloud/281-305104727

 

[Landru]

Not sure the assertions you are referring to. I will be happy to respond, kindly clarify. Let me try. In any case, there is a vapor trail that was produced by s fast moving object. There is no report of an impact from the hikers near the likely impact zone. There were no sonic booms reported. After the vapor trail the cloud patterns persisted for two hours. My images are all time stamped. I was photographing about every 15 seconds and I will have a video that shows the transformations over the two hours.
The cloud formations are highly unusual and I back that assertion with the images I have posted. I am not an expert on clouds, but there are patterns in the clouds that appear unique and unusual. I'm sure there could be a wind from below, an upwelling, but wind is random in its motion and unlikely to produce the order in the patterns.
I saw an object moving at a hide speed and it was confirmed by the vapor trail. I have no way to back up my assertion other than the vapor trail. I don't believe the images I have presented could be produced with photoshop manipulation. They are too unique and unpredictable. I have not asserted anything other than the unusualness of the events. If you look at the multiple frames I uploaded, you can see some of the transformations. That represents about a minute. These were fast moving patterns. The amazing part is that I caught the vapor trail. I had a two second delay in my shutter.
I would be happy to answer any questions. Thank you.

Please provide proof that the vapor trail was produced by a fast moving object. How fast is required to produce a vapor trail?

 

[Mendel]

Let me try. In any case, there is a vapor trail that was produced by s fast moving object. There is no report of an impact from the hikers near the likely impact zone. There were no sonic booms reported.

apparently, there was no impact, and apparently, the object was subsonic

After the vapor trail the cloud patterns persisted for two hours.

would an impact have been able to cause two hours of disturbance?

if there was laminar wind flow across the ridge, and the passing object disturbed that and switched the behavior to turbulent flow, creating patterns, there'd be no easy way for the flow to get back to laminar.

 

[deirdre]

unfortunatlely the good vids i see are all on Washington post so cant be embedded
ex https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2022/08/25/levanter-cloud-rock-of-gibraltar/
ex https://www.washingtonpost.com/weather/2022/12/04/lenticular-clouds-argentina-andes-saucer/

but they look like your photos well enough for me. probably all time lapses so hard to really tell what "moving fast" means. can you find a video that looks like what you were watching in real life? the Mt. Shasta Chamber of COmemrce has one but its pretty grainy
Source: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=2598741706829743
...i'm just trying to determine what "move fast" means.

 

[Mkitz]

Please provide proof that the vapor trail was produced by a fast moving object. How fast is required to produce a vapor trail?

The proof that convinces me is I saw an object in the lcd screen that based on the duration of a second that took to cross the screen and the distance it traversed, the speed was likely supersonic. If you understand how the moisture moves across a mountain top and there are videos posted, you know that something has to be moving at a considerable speed to leave such a distinct trail. Yes, it is mind boggling that I caught the vapor trail that lasted in milliseconds. The vapor trail coincides perfectly with the path of the object. There is no way the so called vapor trail could be produce by mere movement of clouds. The way the Vapor trail fans out at the back or narrows toward the front is a textbook vapor trail. The suggestion that the random wind can produce ordered patterns is not within the realm of possibility, considering that those patterns were produced over two hours. Typically, when an air flow occurs over the mountain the currents fracture any patterns on the trailing edge. The lenticular cloud is appears stationary but it is fast air that condenses. That is stable pattern of cloud that you see above the opening or underbelly where the transformations take place. Show me another instance where the underbelly of a lenticular cloud that produces the detailed pattern I captured. The proof of vapor trail is the events that followed. I don't know anyone with photoshop skills that can manipulate clouds in this manner. It defies imagination. I uploaded high contrast images since the original one I uploaded of the vapor trail made it hard to detect in the low res images I am constrained to post. The vapor trail is real. The photos are real. I don't have anything to gain by deception at 72 years of age. I will post more images if interest follows, if your skepticism prevents you from appreciating these marvels. I will withdraw. Thank you.

 

[deirdre]

you know that something has to be moving at a considerable speed to leave such a distinct trail.

this part isnt true. sorry but this site was founded because the comment section of contrailscience.org wasnt sufficient for proper discussion of the topic of contrails. so i'm just telling you this isnt true.

now as far as you saw an object go a certain distance in a certain time, tht would indicate either 1. fast moving or 2. a smaller object closer tot he camera.

 

[deirdre]

Show me another instance where the underbelly of a lenticular cloud that produces the detailed pattern I captured.

i thought i did with my video links. the only difference is yours are photos not time lapse videos so you have to concentrate to see the turbulent cloud movements in the vids. my opinion anyway. You havent proven, to me at least, that cloud patterns on a mountain are impossible.

 

[Ann K]

The proof that convinces me is I saw an object in the lcd screen that based on the duration of a second that took to cross the screen and the distance it traversed, the speed was likely supersonic.

One problem with this is that you saw something traverse the screen, which shows you the angle of vision it spanned. But a close object at a slow speed would produce the same result as a distant object at a faster speed, and since the distance is unknown, so is the speed. This is a common problem we encounter here, where an assumption or estimation of one parameter means an assumption of others, none of which are actually measured.

 

[deirdre]

I don't know anyone with photoshop skills that can manipulate clouds in this manner. It defies imagination.

there is noone on this thread that is suggesting you manipulatedphotoshopped the clouds or contrail/contrail shadow. You might be misunderstanding people's comments.

 

[Mkitz]

this part isnt true. sorry but this site was founded because the comment section of contrailscience.org wasnt sufficient for proper discussion of the topic of contrails. so i'm just telling you this isnt true.

now as far as you saw an object go a certain distance in a certain time, tht would indicate either 1. fast moving or 2. a smaller object closer tot he camera.

It could not be closer to the camera because the airflow over the mountain does not extend far from the mountain. It is the peak or summit that causes the moisture to be wicked from the air. No mountain and no cloud. I believe you made that point earlier, it had to be over the mountain. Not sure to what, this isn't true refers to. I welcome a healthy, respectful debate and I look forward to future discussions with you.

 

[deirdre]

It could not be closer to the camera because the airflow over the mountain does not extend far from the mountain.

we're saying that either the object was not actually connected to the contrail shadow, or you did see the plane that left the contrail but you are misremembering it's speed.

Obviously you were there and we werent but you dont have video so we are just grasping with what little info you have provided. Based on the photos you gave i see a contrail above the cloud layer, and then some pretty turbulent clouds "over" the mountain. None of which seem odd to me and none of which would indicate a crash...which you admit there were people on the mountain and noone reported a crash.

this isn't true refers to

it refers to what i quoted from you and what i said earlier. the contrail alone does not in any way indicate or prove an abnormal speed of the plane or the ufo.

 

[deirdre]

@Mkitz ps. if you give us your exact gps location, exact time of the contrail photo there might be a member with a flight radar subscription that can look back to june 28,2020 and see the flight paths. They are amazing at pinpointing planes to contrails. Although i'm not sure anyone reading MB now has the subscription needed for a date so long ago, we havent really discussed contrails much lately. I'm tagging @flarkey just to ask him if he has such a subscription.

 

[deirdre]

i will also be cheeky and add that based on the 10,000 contrail pics and threads ive seen on this site, the contrail is either very far away or pretty far away and the plane is actually going upwards. but that's just me recognizing patterns, you dont have to believe me since im too lazy now to provide proof.

 

[flarkey]

@Mkitz ps. if you give us your exact gps location, exact time of the contrail photo there might be a member with a flight radar subscription that can look back to june 28,2020 and see the flight paths. They are amazing at pinpointing planes to contrails. Although i'm not sure anyone reading MB now has the subscription needed for a date so long ago, we havent really discussed contrails much lately. I'm tagging @flarkey just to ask him if he has such a subscription.

My Flightradar24 subscription only goes back a year (@Mick West 's goes back 3 as he has a business account). But I can check on ADSB Exchange back 3 years. Gimme a sec...

An accurate time that the photos were taken would also be helpful.

 

[flarkey]

This flew past at 1314UTC = 9.14am PST Local. It was flying North West and descending into Medford. I cant see any other prospective aircraft. Knowing the exact time and location of the photo would rule this one in/out. @Mkitz

https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=a53232&lat=42.120&lon=-123.300&zoom=8.2&showTrace=2020-06-28

The plane

The 3d View.

 

[FatPhil]

Try and focus on understanding what kind of terrestrial object could produce the vapor trail.

Hydrocarbons burning at high pressures and temperatures are a good source of steam that when released from its enclosure can easily condense just so. To be at altitude, it would help if it were imbued with the power of flight.

WSITD: aeroplane?

 

[Mkitz]

there is noone on this thread that is suggesting you manipulatedphotoshopped the clouds or contrail/contrail shadow. You might be misunderstanding people's comments.

Thanks for clearing that up.