climateview.com, Is this new?

[scombrid]

Those "strange clouds" are created by lee waves. Interesting for sure but not new, not all that unusual, and not caused by electromagnetic radiation being beamed at the clouds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_wave

http://www.caem.wmo.int/_pdf/turbulence/OrographicTurbulence.pdf

In my previous post I stated that the island sticks up just high enough to disrupt the thermocline (which exists when there is a sharp temperature inversion). The second link I provided says conditions for lee wave formation require a sharp inversion at 100-150% of ridge crest height and directional wind shear or rapid decrease in wind speed above the inversion. That basically means that the surface layer must be moving relative to the layer above it then the surface layer passing over islands or mountain ranges creates the same effect as a ship moving on the surface of the sea.

You don't want to fly an airplane into those waves if the waves are big enough. The effect is somewhat like slamming into the wake of a big ship at high speed in your run-about.

 

[solrey]

rezn8d wrote:
HAARP's Ionospheric Research Instrument operates from 3-30 MHz, 3.6 Megawatt, with an ERP of 5.1 GWs and can be used as a radar and is the "heating element", with the MUIR radar holding the plasma in place, making the artificial ionospheric mirror. HAARP, MUIR, AMISR, HIPAS, and SuperDARN are all used in conjunction with Poker Flats.

I think you're confused about some basic facts there Jim. The IRI at the HAARP facility transmits from 2.8 - 10 MHz. Among diagnostic instruments, the HF ionosonde transmits from 1 - 30 MHz, the MUIR transmits from 430 - 450 MHz and the VHF radar at 139 MHz.

The IRI is a transmitter only, without an accompanying receiver it cannot function as radar. Show us the evidence that the MUIR is used to "hold the plasma in place" and not just used as an analytical tool.

So what if different research facilities with complementary instruments in the same region coordinate and cooperate on research experiments? Are you just focusing on the launching of sounding rockets from Poker Flats in order to sketch out some kind of sinister plot?

Did you actually read the abstract for the following paper you linked?

Theory of ground surface plasma wave associated with pre-earthquake electrical charges

It is shown theoretically that if mobile electrical charge exists on the surface of the ground, a ground surface plasma wave is induced by radio waves. If the electrical charges are generated by tectonic stresses acting on crustal rocks prior to major earthquakes, the detection of a ground surface plasma wave could be used as a pre-earthquake electromagnetic phenomenon. The ground surface plasma wave has a dispersion relation, i.e., the relation between frequency and wavelength, similar to that of the free-space plane wave in the atmosphere over the radio broadcast frequency range. It allows for a strong coupling between these two types of waves. This is a mode of electromagnetic wave propagation that has not been previously reported. Numerical analysis demonstrates the propagation of the ground surface plasma wave along a curved surface beyond the line of sight, anomalous scattering by ground surface roughness, and the generation of cross-polarized waves due to the scattering. These results all agree well with radio wave anomalies observed before large earthquakes.

Content from External Source

I've actually corresponded with Friedemann Freund, the scientist who discovered that stress/pressure on certain kinds of rock break oxygen (peroxy) bonds and in the process mobilizes an otherwise trapped "defect electron" state, also known as a "positive hole". Under enormous pressure, certain types of rock temporarily become natural p-type semiconductors.

http://www.ltpaobserverproject.com/...1/rocks_that_crackle_and_sparkle_and_glow.pdf

If you think that altering electromagnetic fields in the ionosphere has an effect on tectonic stress on rock, you've got cause and effect totally reversed. It's the tectonic stress on rock creating localized electromagnetic fields in the Earth's crust that in turn alters electromagnetic fields in the ionosphere.

 

[justanairlinepilot]

Jim Lee, are you going to include this into your conspiracy? Very curious!

http://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases/news_story.cfm?newsId=14414

And claim its part of the population reduction theory?

 

[Unregistered]

That was not a response, that was a dodge. Not answering my questions Michael?

He was pointing out that your claims were not backed up with evidence, then encouraged you to produce evidence. How is that a dodge?

Also, would calling Mick "Michael" when his name is clearly stated to be Mick constitute name-calling? If so, relying on the very bottom of the Hierarchy of Disagreement doesn't help your argument in the slightest.

 

[rezn8d]

I think you're confused about some basic facts there Jim. The IRI at the HAARP facility transmits from 2.8 - 10 MHz. Among diagnostic instruments, the HF ionosonde transmits from 1 - 30 MHz, the MUIR transmits from 430 - 450 MHz and the VHF radar at 139 MHz.

The IRI is a transmitter only, without an accompanying receiver it cannot function as radar. Show us the evidence that the MUIR is used to "hold the plasma in place" and not just used as an analytical tool.

So what if different research facilities with complementary instruments in the same region coordinate and cooperate on research experiments? Are you just focusing on the launching of sounding rockets from Poker Flats in order to sketch out some kind of sinister plot?

Did you actually read the abstract for the following paper you linked?

Theory of ground surface plasma wave associated with pre-earthquake electrical charges

It is shown theoretically that if mobile electrical charge exists on the surface of the ground, a ground surface plasma wave is induced by radio waves. If the electrical charges are generated by tectonic stresses acting on crustal rocks prior to major earthquakes, the detection of a ground surface plasma wave could be used as a pre-earthquake electromagnetic phenomenon. The ground surface plasma wave has a dispersion relation, i.e., the relation between frequency and wavelength, similar to that of the free-space plane wave in the atmosphere over the radio broadcast frequency range. It allows for a strong coupling between these two types of waves. This is a mode of electromagnetic wave propagation that has not been previously reported. Numerical analysis demonstrates the propagation of the ground surface plasma wave along a curved surface beyond the line of sight, anomalous scattering by ground surface roughness, and the generation of cross-polarized waves due to the scattering. These results all agree well with radio wave anomalies observed before large earthquakes.

Content from External Source

I've actually corresponded with Friedemann Freund, the scientist who discovered that stress/pressure on certain kinds of rock break oxygen (peroxy) bonds and in the process mobilizes an otherwise trapped "defect electron" state, also known as a "positive hole". Under enormous pressure, certain types of rock temporarily become natural p-type semiconductors.

http://www.ltpaobserverproject.com/...1/rocks_that_crackle_and_sparkle_and_glow.pdf

If you think that altering electromagnetic fields in the ionosphere has an effect on tectonic stress on rock, you've got cause and effect totally reversed. It's the tectonic stress on rock creating localized electromagnetic fields in the Earth's crust that in turn alters electromagnetic fields in the ionosphere.

The main MHZ frequency range (High Frequency Band 3 – 30 MHZ) of the powerful IRI transmitter is slightly different from the 13.56 MHZ needed to break down the methane. However it is very powerful with a 5.1 Giga watt effective radial power at maximum output. The Ionospheric Research Instrument (IRI) at HAARP transmits over the range 2.8 MHZ to 10 MHZ slightly less than the 13.56 MHZ used to break down methane but as mentioned previously if the IRI transmitted a 10 MHz carrier waves modulated by a 3.56 MHz signal it will generate an Upper Side Frequency of 13.56 MHz which is the methane destruction frequency (Penguin Dictionary of Physics 2000).

Content from External Source

http://rezn8d.net/2013/01/15/radio-and-laser-frequency-and-harmonic-test-ranges-for-the-lucy-and-haarp-experiments-and-their-application-to-atmospheric-methane-destruction/

and I did read that abstract, did not understand it, and you really need to learn to be less condescending

 

[rezn8d]

Those "strange clouds" are created by lee waves. Interesting for sure but not new, not all that unusual, and not caused by electromagnetic radiation being beamed at the clouds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_wave

http://www.caem.wmo.int/_pdf/turbulence/OrographicTurbulence.pdf

In my previous post I stated that the island sticks up just high enough to disrupt the thermocline (which exists when there is a sharp temperature inversion). The second link I provided says conditions for lee wave formation require a sharp inversion at 100-150% of ridge crest height and directional wind shear or rapid decrease in wind speed above the inversion. That basically means that the surface layer must be moving relative to the layer above it then the surface layer passing over islands or mountain ranges creates the same effect as a ship moving on the surface of the sea.

You don't want to fly an airplane into those waves if the waves are big enough. The effect is somewhat like slamming into the wake of a big ship at high speed in your run-about.

for the record, i know the mountaintop caused the ripples, just having fun, you guys are so damn serious

 

[rezn8d]

Jim Lee, are you going to include this into your conspiracy? Very curious!

http://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases/news_story.cfm?newsId=14414

And claim its part of the population reduction theory?

no, i don't give an F about conspiracy

 

[rezn8d]

The biggest disagreement I have with Jim's stuff is that he sensationalizes and stretches very small things way out of proportion.
Boy cries wolf chicken little sort of stuff. That sort of thing has a limited lifespan, it dies a natural death over time for most people, except for newcomers and those who can't turn back. Like the chemtrails hoax, where will Dane Wigington be five, ten, fifteen years from now?

Nick Begich began haarping back in the early 1990s. His book was published in 1997, FIFTEEN YEARS ago. Now selling for 1/2 price!
He established the whole CT, but failed to get any qualified peopleto follow him down the hole.
Where's the Beef, Jim?

Where is the real evidence that haarp has done anything other than what they publicize?
Haarpstatus.com?

Where's the Beef?

The intention to weaponize the ionosphere gives me pause, and keeps my interest. And I work daily on not over sensationalizing the things I post online.

 

[Pete Tar]

...
It's the tectonic stress on rock creating localized electromagnetic fields in the Earth's crust that in turn alters electromagnetic fields in the ionosphere.

Would these result in 'earthquake clouds'? (coloured prism effect)

 

[Mick West]

for the record, i know the mountaintop caused the ripples, just having fun, you guys are so damn serious

Don't YOU want to be taken serious? You post on the Geoengineering list, you claim you are talking about the biggest issue in human history, and then you stick jokes in your web site?

It makes it rather pointless to enter into discussion, if you are joking half the time and your jokes are indistinguishable from your theories.

 

[Mick West]

The intention to weaponize the ionosphere gives me pause, and keeps my interest. And I work daily on not over sensationalizing the things I post online.

This type of thing?

 

[solrey]

The main MHZ frequency range (High Frequency Band 3 – 30 MHZ) of the powerful IRI transmitter is slightly different from the 13.56 MHZ needed to break down the methane. However it is very powerful with a 5.1 Giga watt effective radial power at maximum output. The Ionospheric Research Instrument (IRI) at HAARP transmits over the range 2.8 MHZ to 10 MHZ slightly less than the 13.56 MHZ used to break down methane but as mentioned previously if the IRI transmitted a 10 MHz carrier waves modulated by a 3.56 MHz signal it will generate an Upper Side Frequency of 13.56 MHz which is the methane destruction frequency (Penguin Dictionary of Physics 2000).

Content from External Source

Jim, the first sentence which you highlighted in an apparent attempt to prove you were right, is talking about the HF BAND, which is 3 - 30 MHz. The part I highlighted is the actual frequency range of the IRI at 2.8 - 10 MHz. Now I see where you got confused, you thought the HF band itself was the frequency range of the IRI. Might want to consider getting your info straight from the source instead of muddying the waters with third party mumbo jumbo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_spectrum

rezn8d wrote:
and I did read that abstract, did not understand it,

Why am I not surprised. You don't understand much science at all, do ya Jim? Yet you attempt to portray yourself as some kind of expert researcher who has got it all figured out?

And I work daily on not over sensationalizing the things I post online.

Don't be so duplicitous Jim, your websites and youtube channel achieve nothing more than the dissemination of distressing propaganda, the epitome of fear porn.

and you really need to learn to be less condescending

Perhaps you need to learn some science and also learn to be less smarmy, Jim.


Now, on to those earthquake lights that Pete Tar asked about.

Pete Tar wrote
Would these result in 'earthquake clouds'? (coloured prism effect)

According to the paper I linked, could be. From page 62:

When such corona discharges occur in nature, several consequences can be
predicted. Light emission from ionized or electronically excited air molecules
during corona discharges is the probable cause of those luminous phenomena
that have been reported as earthquake lights as reviewed by Derr (1973, 1986 ).

Content from External Source

http://www.ltpaobserverproject.com/...1/rocks_that_crackle_and_sparkle_and_glow.pdf

Freund's research might be applied to predict large earthquakes at least several days before they occur.

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2003/11aug_earthquakes/

 

[rezn8d]

Don't YOU want to be taken serious? You post on the Geoengineering list, you claim you are talking about the biggest issue in human history, and then you stick jokes in your web site?

It makes it rather pointless to enter into discussion, if you are joking half the time and your jokes are indistinguishable from your theories.

I stuck that on facebook, hardly my website.

 

[rezn8d]

The main MHZ frequency range (High Frequency Band 3 – 30 MHZ) of the powerful IRI transmitter is slightly different from the 13.56 MHZ needed to break down the methane. However it is very powerful with a 5.1 Giga watt effective radial power at maximum output. The Ionospheric Research Instrument (IRI) at HAARP transmits over the range 2.8 MHZ to 10 MHZ slightly less than the 13.56 MHZ used to break down methane but as mentioned previously if the IRI transmitted a 10 MHz carrier waves modulated by a 3.56 MHz signal it will generate an Upper Side Frequency of 13.56 MHz which is the methane destruction frequency (Penguin Dictionary of Physics 2000).

Content from External Source

Jim, the first sentence which you highlighted in an apparent attempt to prove you were right, is talking about the HF BAND, which is 3 - 30 MHz. The part I highlighted is the actual frequency range of the IRI at 2.8 - 10 MHz. Now I see where you got confused, you thought the HF band itself was the frequency range of the IRI. Might want to consider getting your info straight from the source instead of muddying the waters with third party mumbo jumbo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_spectrum



Why am I not surprised. You don't understand much science at all, do ya Jim? Yet you attempt to portray yourself as some kind of expert researcher who has got it all figured out?



Don't be so duplicitous Jim, your websites and youtube channel achieve nothing more than the dissemination of distressing propaganda, the epitome of fear porn.



Perhaps you need to learn some science and also learn to be less smarmy, Jim.


Now, on to those earthquake lights that Pete Tar asked about.



According to the paper I linked, could be. From page 62:

When such corona discharges occur in nature, several consequences can be
predicted. Light emission from ionized or electronically excited air molecules
during corona discharges is the probable cause of those luminous phenomena
that have been reported as earthquake lights as reviewed by Derr (1973, 1986 ).

Content from External Source

http://www.ltpaobserverproject.com/...1/rocks_that_crackle_and_sparkle_and_glow.pdf

Freund's research might be applied to predict large earthquakes at least several days before they occur.

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2003/11aug_earthquakes/

might be...
[h=1]Italy Orders Jail Terms for 7 Who Didn’t Warn of Deadly Earthquake[/h]
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/23/world/europe/italy-convicts-7-for-failure-to-warn-of-quake.html

 

[solrey]

might be...
Italy Orders Jail Terms for 7 Who Didn’t Warn of Deadly Earthquake

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/23/wo...-of-quake.html

What are you trying to say, Jim? A detection system based on Freund's research has not been developed or deployed yet so what's your point? Or are you just being snarky again?

 

[Mick West]

I stuck that on facebook, hardly my website.

It was an ad for your web site. Strongly suggesting that the waves were related to the buildings on the island. It has been widely shared on Facebook by people who believe the implication. Are you going to find all the places it has been shared and explain it was just a joke?

 

[scombrid]

It was an ad for your web site. Strongly suggesting that the waves were related to the buildings on the island. It has been widely shared on Facebook by people who believe the implication. Are you going to find all the places it has been shared and explain it was just a joke?

This.

It did not appear to be a joke to me. It certainly doesn't appear to be taken as a joke by the people that are sharing it around.

 

[rezn8d]

It was an ad for your web site. Strongly suggesting that the waves were related to the buildings on the island. It has been widely shared on Facebook by people who believe the implication. Are you going to find all the places it has been shared and explain it was just a joke?

nope

btw, did you see this yet?

[h=1]HAARP makes Earthquakes?[/h]
[h=1]High-power ELF radiation generated by HAARP modulated HF heating of the ionosphere can cause Earthquakes, Cyclones and localized heating[/h] [h=3]by Fran De Aquino, Maranhao State University, S.Luis/MA, Brazil [on scribd][/h]

 

[Mick West]

nope

btw, did you see this yet?

HAARP makes Earthquakes?


High-power ELF radiation generated by HAARP modulated HF heating of the ionosphere can cause Earthquakes, Cyclones and localized heating

by Fran De Aquino, Maranhao State University, S.Luis/MA, Brazil [on scribd]

Yes, it's crap. There's a discussion of it here:
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=29394

Look Jim, you do not come across as genuinely wanting to discuss the actual science. You put up things like that Marion Island image, claim it's a joke, and then you refuse to try to correct it when it sweeps through the chemtrail community.

What's your deal exactly? Just trying to get traffic for your site? What is it you want?

 

[rezn8d]

Yes, it's crap. There's a discussion of it here:
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=29394

Look Jim, you do not come across as genuinely wanting to discuss the actual science. You put up things like that Marion Island image, claim it's a joke, and then you refuse to try to correct it when it sweeps through the chemtrail community.

What's your deal exactly? Just trying to get traffic for your site? What is it you want?

did you read the discussion you linked?

They hardly agree "it's crap," one mod said it was crap, everyone else is asking questions.

QUOTE (jumpjack @ Jun 16 2011, 11:52 AM)I found a weird paper by prof. Fran de Aquino on Arxiv:
h t t p :/ /arxiv.org/abs/physics/0212033

Among various oddities, there is this "formula (55)" which is very interesting, and the whole theory is based on it.
So, could it be right?
Can the momentum of a body be changed by EM radiation?

Content from External Source

http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=29394&st=0&#entry487346

Didn't we read this?

The Arecibo High-Frequency Radio Ionospheric Heater can beam powerful radio waves into the ionosphere. These radio waves, with millions of watts of effective power, can "push the ionosphere around" and create significant perturbations and structures.

Content from External Source

http://www-pw.physics.uiowa.edu/plasma-wave/crres/press-kit/detailed-experiments.html


My deal is this, the scientific/military orgy has produced a new radiation belt that will last over a hundred years, they just found a third radiation belt this year, and all the while the guy who did the geoengineering models, Ken Caldeira, never even knew about HAARP, or plasma seeding, or tearing parts of the ionosphere open, destroying the ozone layer with 40 years of chemical and nuclear experiments in the upper atmosphere.

My deal?

That not a single person on this planet, you, me, or anyone, knows just how bad collectively we've fucked up this planet, and guys like you acting like all of this atmospheric experimentation is just dandy makes me call into question your motives, despite your previously claimed ones.

 

[Mick West]

did you read the discussion you linked?

They hardly agree "it's crap," one mod said it was crap, everyone else is asking questions.

QUOTE (jumpjack @ Jun 16 2011, 11:52 AM)I found a weird paper by prof. Fran de Aquino on Arxiv:
h t t p :/ /arxiv.org/abs/physics/0212033

Among various oddities, there is this "formula (55)" which is very interesting, and the whole theory is based on it.
So, could it be right?
Can the momentum of a body be changed by EM radiation?

Content from External Source

http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=29394&st=0&#entry487346

What you quote is the opening question of the thread. Everything after that either explains why it's crap, of mocks the pseudoscience of De Aquino. And this is in a relatively open minded fringe sub forum.

Didn't we read this?

The Arecibo High-Frequency Radio Ionospheric Heater can beam powerful radio waves into the ionosphere. These radio waves, with millions of watts of effective power, can "push the ionosphere around" and create significant perturbations and structures.

Content from External Source

http://www-pw.physics.uiowa.edu/plasma-wave/crres/press-kit/detailed-experiments.html

Ionospheric heaters exist? People perform experiments in the ionosphere? Is that the point you are making?

My deal is this, the scientific/military orgy has produced a new radiation belt that will last over a hundred years,

Reference please.

they just found a third radiation belt this year, and all the while the guy who did the geoengineering models, Ken Caldeira, never even knew about HAARP, or plasma seeding, or tearing parts of the ionosphere open, destroying the ozone layer with 40 years of chemical and nuclear experiments in the upper atmosphere.

When did Caldeira not know about HAARP?

And why should he, if there's no downward coupling with the lower atmosphere?

My deal?

That not a single person on this planet, you, me, or anyone, knows just how bad collectively we've fucked up this planet, and guys like you acting like all of this atmospheric experimentation is just dandy makes me call into question your motives, despite your previously claimed ones.

I'm not saying everything is all dandy. I'm debunking.

 

[solrey]

My deal is this, the scientific/military orgy has produced a new radiation belt that will last over a hundred years, they just found a third radiation belt this year, and all the while the guy who did the geoengineering models, Ken Caldeira, never even knew about HAARP, or plasma seeding, or tearing parts of the ionosphere open, destroying the ozone layer with 40 years of chemical and nuclear experiments in the upper atmosphere.

There was a third, transient radiation belt discovered due to higher resolution instruments onboard the Radiation Belt Storm Probes (Van Allen Probes) launched in late August of 2012. The first transient event was only observed for four weeks. Jim, you're just making up a story about it being human produced and lasting over a hundred years. Why do you do that? What is your motivation beyond sending more traffic to your websites? Do you ever bother to vet or confirm your sources?

NASA's Van Allen Probes Reveal a New Radiation Belt Around Earth

"This is the first time we have had such high-resolution instruments look at time, space and energy together in the outer belt," said Daniel Baker, lead author of the study and REPT instrument lead at the Laboratory for Atmospheric and Space Physics (LASP) at the University of Colorado in Boulder. "Previous observations of the outer radiation belt only resolved it as a single blurry element. When we turned REPT on just two days after launch, a powerful electron acceleration event was already in progress, and we clearly saw the new belt and new slot between it and the outer belt."
Scientists observed the third belt for four weeks before a powerful interplanetary shock wave from the sun annihilated it.

Content from External Source

About the RBSP mission:
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/rbsp/main/index.html

That de Aquino paper is total crap, btw.

That not a single person on this planet, you, me, or anyone, knows just how bad collectively we've fucked up this planet, and guys like you acting like all of this atmospheric experimentation is just dandy makes me call into question your motives, despite your previously claimed ones.

I've been an environmentalist/conservationist my whole life, you don't know me or anyone else here. What, because we expose your bunk rather than fall at your feet our motivations are in question? Do you really think that bunk is good for any group who cares about a given subject?

 

[Jay Reynolds]

I think Jim had very high hopes for his website. The google earth interface sounds cool even though I've never been able to use it on my computer.

He hasn't figured out his personal confirmation biases, and jumps to conclusions which seem to 'fit', even when they don't. I think he sees what he is doing as being on a spiritual level which also might lead him to irrational conclusions. He has had to eat a lot of crow by coming here, maybe he'll eventually learn from his mistakes.

 

[Unregistered]

That not a single person on this planet, you, me, or anyone, knows just how bad collectively we've fucked up this planet,

And your spreading misinformation (either knowingly or accidentally) then refusing to issue a correction when called out on it isn't helping to inform anyone in that regard.

and guys like you acting like all of this atmospheric experimentation is just dandy makes me call into question your motives, despite your previously claimed ones.

They claim that they are debunking. As far as I can tell, in this thread, all they've done is address issues you've brought up and shown why those things are bunk, which fits their claimed motive perfectly. Meanwhile, you refuse to acknowledge those explanations and simply move on to the next piece of bunk. For example,

The main MHZ frequency range (High Frequency Band 3 – 30 MHZ) of the powerful IRI transmitter is slightly different from the 13.56 MHZ needed to break down the methane. However it is very powerful with a 5.1 Giga watt effective radial power at maximum output. The Ionospheric Research Instrument (IRI) at HAARP transmits over the range 2.8 MHZ to 10 MHZ slightly less than the 13.56 MHZ used to break down methane but as mentioned previously if the IRI transmitted a 10 MHz carrier waves modulated by a 3.56 MHz signal it will generate an Upper Side Frequency of 13.56 MHz which is the methane destruction frequency (Penguin Dictionary of Physics 2000).

Content from External Source

Jim, the first sentence which you highlighted in an apparent attempt to prove you were right, is talking about the HF BAND, which is 3 - 30 MHz. The part I highlighted is the actual frequency range of the IRI at 2.8 - 10 MHz. Now I see where you got confused, you thought the HF band itself was the frequency range of the IRI. Might want to consider getting your info straight from the source instead of muddying the waters with third party mumbo jumbo.

might be...
[h=1]Italy Orders Jail Terms for 7 Who Didn’t Warn of Deadly Earthquake[/h]
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/23/world/europe/italy-convicts-7-for-failure-to-warn-of-quake.html

What exactly is making you call their motives into question? And please, provide a specific example(s) and explain how they don't fit into the claim that they are merely debunkers, and explain how it shows their "true" motives as you see them. And heck, if you don't want to go through all that trouble of providing evidence for something like this to a guy that can't even bother register (ie: me), then at LEAST ask yourself why you are questioning their motives, just so you don't unintentionally delude yourself into disregarding their reasonable explanations for no good reason. Because if the only reason you can come up with is "because these people aren't immediately accepting my claims," you might want to rethink your position.

 

[Cairenn]

You might start by understanding the difference between 'claims' and FACTS.

When folks continue to post information that has been shown to be false multiple times, then there must be a reason. Sometimes it is just to make money, others enjoy the attention they get, others seemed so rooted in their belief that they can not accept that they could be wrong.

They do not have reasonable explanations.