Claim: Pareidolia is bias

[FatPhil]

both definitions place pareidolia as an act of perception, of seeing
what is seen is
(1) something that exists
(2) a pattern/image/meaning that does not exist

Again, I disagree that that description applies to the contrived ones. *By definition* the meaning *does* exist, as it was *explicitly* put there by the artist.

 

[BlackHoleNFO]

Hmm, not seeing it. Some parts of the car look suspiciously chocolatey to me though.

The Mouth is the Light in front...then you got it...its a 60% face because i use the wrong picture dimensions ^^

 

[BlackHoleNFO]

Is an half Face also Parodeilia?

 

[JMartJr]

Is an half Face also Parodeilia?

If it is not an actual face, or an actual representation of one, yes. Pareidolia need not even be a fae, it involves seeing something in an image that is not actually there,

That, for example, is not Godzilla.

Pareidolia is not always faces, but it very often IS because our brains love to find faces.

 

[Giddierone]

Is an half Face also Parodeilia?

Like this?

 

[Giddierone]

Like this?

It occurs to me that while pareidolia might be an individual's interpretation of a stimulus, the illusion has to be shared by a certain threshold of people for it to gain any traction—like with the Cydonia "face." I felt sure others would see half-lit hooded Kobold keeping watch through my window, but no...

 

[NorCal Dave]

It occurs to me that while pareidolia might be an individual's interpretation of a stimulus, the illusion has to be shared by a certain threshold of people for it to gain any traction—like with the Cydonia "face." I felt sure others would see half-lit hooded Kobold keeping watch through my window, but no...
View attachment 75664

I kept trying to make a face out of the coffee bag clip.

 

[JMartJr]

Just adding the link to the recent claims of a structure on Mars. [maybe it deserves it's own thread, but it's relevant to this pareidolia discussion also].View attachment 76810
The "structure" is at the top of this image strip.
https://viewer.mars.asu.edu/planetview/inst/moc/E1000462#T=2&P=E1000462

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/cl...-resembles-an-ancient-square-structure.13980/

 

[Giddierone]

Oh, just wanted to add this fun example. I looked up at the ceiling of my kids room one day and was surprised to see this.

Which reminded me of this....

but was actually just the reflection of this...

 

[Scaramanga]

The implications of pareidolia actually being a bias seem huge because it might mean we really are looked down upon by a "man in the moon" and derive power for our devices directly from the kindly faces of electrial elves in our homes. The claim seems wronger than wrong.

I'd have though that evolutionarily...of course pareidolia is a bias. And a good one. A bias for spotting faces is really handy. If you rightly 'imagine' that that shape in the long grass is the face of a lion then you don't end up as dinner. If you wrongly imagine it....you've just wasted a few seconds of attention. The pareidoliacs survive and multiply by natural selection, and the non-paraidoliacs keep the lions fed.

 

[JMartJr]

The pareidoliacs survive and multiply by natural selection, and the non-paraidoliacs keep the lions fed.

So a win-win situation!

 

[Giddierone]

I saw a version of this on X and thought I'd check the similarity...is this just pareidolia?

 

[deirdre]

.is this just pareidolia?

no.

although the similarities between a pretty tank and the worlds least sexy "truck", end at the non rounded angles.

 

[Mendel]

I saw a version of this on X and thought I'd check the similarity...is this just pareidolia?View attachment 78078

The comparison vehicle is a "Schwerer Panzerspähwagen Sd. Kfz. 231 (8-rad)".

 

[Giddierone]

I guess the question is does the current political conversation create a bias that hinders the objective study of what could be [a] real anomalies homage to fascist imagery? For example does Elon's hand gesture and the conversation around it [such as his tweets] make it easier to see the Cybertruck as some kind carefully planned homage to the German Reich?

 

[Mendel]

I guess the question is does the current political conversation create a bias that hinders the objective study of what could be [a] real anomalies homage to fascist imagery? For example does Elon's hand gesture and the conversation around it [such as his tweets] make it easier to see the Cybertruck as some kind carefully planned homage to the German Reich?

there is no evidence
you could just as justifiably call the cybertruck a homage to a dumpster
but in fact it's probably a homage to 1980s computer games
and was designed by Franz von Holzhausen, not Elon Musk

the Schwerer Panzerspähwagen Sd. Kfz. 231 (8-rad) looks very different from the Cybertruck, too

 

[deirdre]

I guess the question is does the current political conversation create a bias that hinders the objective study of what could be [a] real anomalies homage to fascist imagery? For example does Elon's hand gesture and the conversation around it [such as his tweets] make it easier to see the Cybertruck as some kind carefully planned homage to the German Reich?

oh! is that why they put a german cross on the tank? i figured all tanks look like that <i'm such a girl.

i highly doubt the skinheads of america would buy a "truck" that looks like that.
but yea maybe elon is trying to 'subliminal suggestion' the "i have a ton of money and buy electric ugly ass things that i will call a truck" crowd into liking nazis. (assuming they know what a nazi tank looks like).

*the cyber truck doesn't really look like a tank to me..it looks like something a kid would make for a soap box derby. but i still dont think its paradolia.. the angles do look alike. But Musk was not giving a nazi salute.

and was designed by Franz von Holzhausen, not Elon Musk

Franz? well definitely a nazi homage then.

that said:

 

[Ann K]

I saw a version of this on X and thought I'd check the similarity...is this just pareidolia?View attachment 78078

The tank looks like it means business. The Tesla looks like "Place tab A into slot B..."

 

[elvenwear]

I saw a version of this on X and thought I'd check the similarity...is this just pareidolia?

The tank is waterproof and reliable. No similarity detected.

 

[Giddierone]

Musk was not giving a nazi salute.

How can you tell?

Source: https://youtu.be/-VfYjPzj1Xw?si=aBv8JiOoegkwizgU

To eliminate bias I'd like to see someone rotoscope this clip and make a non-identifiable wireframe version, then run a survey to ask people what they see.

 

[deirdre]

How can you tell?

because i watched the entire clip from his hyper/robot entrance onwards, instead of just a small clip.

 

[Ann K]

because i watched the entire clip from his hyper/robot entrance onwards, instead of just a small clip.

As far as I know, nobody is claiming that his entire appearance was one big whopping Nazi salute.

 

[deirdre]

As far as I know, nobody is claiming that his entire appearance was one big whopping Nazi salute.

the point is his movements and hand positions were "stiff" robotic from the get go that day. not to mention nazi salutes are straight up, you dont throw the salute to your fans like you are throwing kisses. <not that im trying to convince you personally otherwise, such wild ideas help the right look better.

 

[Giddierone]

because i watched the entire clip from his hyper/robot entrance onwards, instead of just a small clip.

That doesn't answer the question. What amount of context is needed to see the gesture differently? If you're driving toward someone on a highway and they're moving their arm up and down with their thumb stuck out do you need to have been with them all day to really understand if they're a hitchhiker, or can you understand that signal in the few seconds in which you see them?
I see this as analogous to the face on mars. A lot of people "see" the face yet the physical reality of the location when measured differently does not confirm that perception. In the salute case there's an objective physical reality to the motion and shape his body takes (twice) which is captured from various angles, and some people "see" a Nazi salute, while others don't.
Believing he didn't do a Nazi salute because he he didn't mean to do a Nazi salute (or because he moves awkwardly sometimes) and later pooh poohed the idea seems to avoid the actual evidence.
Not a political discussion, just one about pareidolia.

 

[Ann K]

not to mention nazi salutes are straight up, you dont throw the salute to your fans like you are throwing kisses.

 

[deirdre]

That doesn't answer the question. What amount of context is needed to see the gesture differently?

i guess you need to be familiar with or empathetic to socially awkward people. ? i'm not sure how to better answer your question. we've all seen musk's "odd" mannerisms for years. like you said, i guess you either see it or you dont.

 

[Mendel]

That doesn't answer the question. What amount of context is needed to see the gesture differently?

Context required:
• used as greeting
• by a Nazi, or towards a Nazi
Elon Musk's performance ticks both boxes.

I would accept a context against if it was established that
• person is not a Nazi,
• person used gesture in other contexts

But to argue that Musk went to Germany, to endorse a party with strong ties to Nazi ideology, with some of its leaders having been caught showing the Nazi salute, and greets a gathering with a gesture that he doesn't normally use, and that looks like a Nazi salute, but that it wasn't intended to be one, is simply not a strong position to maintain.

 

[Giddierone]

Whatever his intention it's undeniable that he was doing this salute (below) performed by an actual Nazi. If we were going to talk about intention (which is beyond I think is beyond the scope of this thread) it could be argued that as a free speech absolutist he was signalling this right to offend (without any Nazi intent), an expression protected by the US First Amendment—but doing so (twice) behind the Presidential Seal has backfired.
To argue that pointing any of this out is somehow a knock against people with socially awkward movements is bizarre hand waving...

 

[deirdre]

(below) performed by an actual Nazi

if that's an actual nazi group, no wonder we won the war. (but that doesnt match either, although it is closer than the real nazi one)

 

[elvenwear]

For a little context the link below is from Forbes and is was posted in the last day.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/antoni...llions-message-amid-ongoing-nazi-controversy/

Musk Retweets 'Hitler Didn't Murder Millions' Message Amid Ongoing Nazi Controversy

The following is from the Guardian in 2023

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/nov/16/elon-musk-antisemitic-tweet-adl

Elon Musk agrees with tweet accusing Jewish people of 'hatred against whites'

The following is from ABC. It followed his rant where he appeared to be blaming the Jews for the withdrawal of advertisers from Twitter. In the headline, you can see he denies it.

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-n...st-revenue-says-anti-semitism-kind-rcna103292

Elon Musk blames ADL for lost revenue, says he opposes antisemitism 'of any kind'

The original video is here. The relevant time is around the 10-14 minute mark. He essentially blames the advertisers and claims 'earth will know' why this happened.


Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BfMuHDfGJI


So the timeline looks like this:
2023 Musk, after acquiring Twitter, makes antisemitic statements.
2024 After being invited to a friendly interview with a lot of advertisers, he tells those same advertisers to f### off and makes unusual and seemingly ambiguous statements about who will be blamed if Twitter fails.
2024 After the Anti-Defamation League interprets the above rant as antisemitic, Musk criticises the ADL and denies being an antisemite.
2025 Musk waves his arm in what appears to be a Nazi salute. He does this twice.
2025 Musk denies Hilter was responsible for the holocaust.

At no point since he made the gesture did he apologise, explain or talk about how terrible the holocaust was.

The evidence for Musk's virulent antisemitism is about as strong as the evidence against Mel Gibson.

 

[Giddierone]

if that's an actual nazi group

Yes, it's difficult to tell them apart from the local chapter of "Autistics Anonymous."

 

[deirdre]

Yes, it's difficult to tell them apart from the local chapter of "Autistics Anonymous."

dont cherry pick my statement and pretend like you are making some point. (<no offense, as i think its good MB shows it has its own large group of conspiracy theorists.. it makes the site more palatable to the same.)

 

[Mendel]

2025 Musk denies Hilter was responsible for the holocaust.

Probably pareidolia. The "public sector workers" looked like a small man with a moustache, or something.

The leader who tasks his Reichssicherheitshauptamt with killing the jews is responsible for the murders, even if he didn't personally throw the Zyklon B into a gas chamber. Referring to the SS as "public sector workers" is bunk, too.

 

[Todd Feinman]

if that's an actual nazi group, no wonder we won the war. (but that doesnt match either, although it is closer than the real nazi one)

We won the war because we were able to outproduce Germany and Hitler kept making crazy strategic blunders, and not listening to his generals.

 

[Todd Feinman]

i guess you need to be familiar with or empathetic to socially awkward people. ? i'm not sure how to better answer your question. we've all seen musk's "odd" mannerisms for years. like you said, i guess you either see it or you dont.

What do Germans think about it?

 

[deirdre]

Referring to the SS as "public sector workers" is bunk, too.

i think it likely refers to the meme that the german public participated by turning in their neighbors. i could be wrong of course, but "public sector" usually means citizens.


i had a south african white guy on MB accuse me of turning in Anne Frank (because my black goddaughter said she feels more comfortable being pulled over by a black cop than white cop...how that relates to me and Anne Frank i have no idea).

and remember that superhero girl..gina something, got canceled for posting a similar meme...german public turning in their neighbors.

personally i dont think every jew captured was turned in by their neighbors, i assume the "ss"? pulled most people off the streets themselves.

 

[Giddierone]

dont cherry pick my statement and pretend like you are making some point. (<no offense, as i think its good MB shows it has its own large group of conspiracy theorists.. it makes the site more palatable to the same.)

Now you're just being silly. It's not a conspiracy theory to see someone do a Nazi salute (regardless of their intended meaning).

 

[FatPhil]

What do Germans think about it?

This is one way of finding out:

German authorities are investigating images projected onto the Tesla Gigafactory just outside Berlin that depicted Elon Musk apparently performing a Nazi-style salute at US President Donald Trump's recent inauguration.
...
Some on the political left in Germany contended that if authorities convict any of the group's members for projecting an illegal image, it would show — in Germany at least — that the gesture was indeed a Nazi salute and not a means of thanking the members of the audience at his speech as Musk and other have said.

-- https://www.dw.com/en/germany-musk-tesla-nazi-salute/a-71403737

 

[Todd Feinman]

I'm just glad my Grandfather, who was a navigator on a bomber in WWII isn't around to see what is happening.

 

[JMartJr]

This is one way of finding out:

Some on the political left in Germany contended that if authorities convict any of the group's members for projecting an illegal image, it would show — in Germany at least — that the gesture was indeed a Nazi salute and not a means of thanking the members of the audience at his speech as Musk and other have said.

Of course, multi-tasking is a thing, it COULD be both, depending on what he thought the politics of the audience was.