Challenge from Dane Wigington

HappyMonday

Moderator
all i know is i see the clouds have changed bigtime. ive been taking pictures of clouds/sunsets for years. so i noticed. i live by a small airport and by Vandenburg air force base. our airport is small so we get a lot of blimps and experimental planes landing there. vandenberg shoots up things that have busted out our windows. so planes, even weird ones, im used to. i KNOW they are spraying something because my eyes and camera aint lying tome! they are spraying something and its on purpose, so the ONLY thing i want to know is what are they TRYING to do? my mind does not go straght to 'the govts trying to kill me' it could be true, but i dnt think so. santa maria grows a lot of broccoli strawberrys couliflower, etc. the SAME foods the govts eats! so its dumb to spray stuff that they will eat and breath too.
now if someone were to tell me that they are just trying cool new effects for planes for movies, id actually buy that. what bothers me is all the people that lie! that get so nervous when you ask them.( like the local weatherman, a man ive known for years personally, flat refused to talk about anything, said he wont allow himself to be put in a contraversy, he flipped out! my exact question was ' so what do you think about those planes spraying stuff?' im not an activist, i dont try to figt with folks, what i would like to know, plain and simple, is ' since they started the spraying, have weathermen/meterorologists noticed anything different in the way the clouds/atmosphere act? ' thats really all i want to know. but theres tons of people that get MAD AS HELL if you even bring it up! thats what tingles my spidey senses, most people dont get so mad over a simple question.

Perhaps you could show us a picture you've taken of a plane spraying out of Vandenburg?

You could start another thread for it. There are a number of pilots regularly using this forum, none of whom are ever nervous about discussing these things.
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
what bothers me is all the people that lie! that get so nervous when you ask them.( like the local weatherman, a man ive known for years personally, flat refused to talk about anything, said he wont allow himself to be put in a contraversy, he flipped out! my exact question was ' so what do you think about those planes spraying stuff?' im not an activist, i dont try to figt with folks, what i would like to know, plain and simple, is ' since they started the spraying, have weathermen/meterorologists noticed anything different in the way the clouds/atmosphere act? ' thats really all i want to know. but theres tons of people that get MAD AS HELL if you even bring it up! thats what tingles my spidey senses, most people dont get so mad over a simple question.

The chemtrails hoax is fifteen years old. Many meteorologists and weathermen have been the subject of write-in/ call-in campaigns and public attacks, some have been threatened. The blog of the American Geophysical Union addressed this a couple of years back:
http://blogs.agu.org/wildwildscience/2011/04/16/yes-indeed-im-in-on-the-big-conspiracy/
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
I sounds like you asked him a 'Have you stopped beating your wife?" question. If you did, the only reasonable response is not answer it.
 

mustanglovrsue

New Member
I sounds like you asked him a 'Have you stopped beating your wife?" question. If you did, the only reasonable response is not answer it.
you think thats how he took it? i sure wasnt meaning it like that. your right, he probably thought it was a baited question. opps...
ill post a pic of planes, i got lots of pics. lately they have been changing what they spray. meaning, the streams come out of the jets different, they trails they leave behind act different. i cant say that its making me sick, im not sick. i do get sick everytime i garden, but thats an 'allergic to bugs' thing. ( 2 dermatologists say im allergic to bug bites, my skin breaks out in open sores. i look like a horror film extra. after biopsys, pee tests and blood tests, thats what docs say is wrong)
i know a lot of folks say that the spray makes them sick, i think for those folks, looking at them strange makes them sick too. P1080878-001.JPGP1080867.JPGP1090888.JPG l
 

mustanglovrsue

New Member
let me clarify, im not saying the planes from vandenburg are spraying this, i mentioned VAFB because i live close to there. i think a few of these jets are coming out of santa maria airport though.i dont think vandenberg would mess with this.
 

JonN

New Member
Hi Mustang, as a new member myself, and still learning a lot here. These look like normal contrails. I suggest you do like i did and go to the main page of this site.
There is a ton of info on how contrails are formed, and why. http://contrailscience.com/ There are 5 long pages of very good info.
 

Hama Neggs

Senior Member.
Email response from Chicoskywatch.org:

"Our "evidence" is (well-presented) on our website.
We have no interest in "discussing" something that is at a point where
it is so obviously true beyond a reasonable doubt.
Intellectual masturbation is fun for a few minutes and then it gets old real quick.
Have fun "arguing" the "merits" of the issue(s).
But you'll have to do so without our participation.
We have more important things to do.

– Bill"
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
It's the "post evidence" phase. They have decided they have enough evidence, so they are going to focus on telling people what the situation is, and discussion of if the evidence is valid is pointless.

The miss the point though. In order to convince other people, you've got to demonstrate that the evidence is valid, so you've got to be able to answer criticisms of that evidence.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Here is one of the charts from their site: http://www.chicoskywatch.org/pages/water_tests_table_chart.php

"Aluminum Content in Chico-Area water sources in parts per billion - samples should average less than 1 ppb". (Emphasis mine)

What?! Where do they GET these "facts"?

In full:

Free aluminum ((nano-) particulate) is a toxic metal. The MCL is established by the CA Environmental Protection Agency (CalEPA). When the MCL is exceeded, the CA EPA is legally required to mitigate the problem. The MCL for aluminum is 1,000 parts per billion (ppb). All environmental samples should averageless than 1 part per billion.
Content from External Source
There's a few problems there.

1) Their tests do not test for free aluminum. They test for aluminum, which is most likely in some form of oxide. Soil in CA is 10% aluminum (100,000,000 ppb)
2) There is no MCL for Aluminum. There's a secondary MCL, at 50-200 ppb (0.05 to 0.2 mg/L)
3) The 1ppb is most likely a mistake, and refers to something else.
4) Most of their tests are dirty water, so will contain dust. Rain contains airborne dust. Dust contains aluminum.

There's a mine of errors in the individual tests, but the bottom line is that they have made some fundamentally wrong assumptions.
 

Hama Neggs

Senior Member.
You quoted a different spot on the same page. They actually make the less than 1 ppb claim twice on that page. How can such a glaring error as that sit un-noticed? Don't ANY of them even proofread their own stuff? Apparently not.
 

Hama Neggs

Senior Member.
I emailed him back, pointing out that the "less than 1 ppb" statement can't possibly be correct and asking him if it could be a typo or if he stands behind it. I also asked him if he knows the difference between "free" aluminum and other forms. No response so far and I guess I don't really expect one.

PS: The printed literature they hand out contains that statement as well. Apparently nobody even questions it.
 
There does seem to be a lack of proof reading amongst the conspiracy people. In a Youtube snippet from a Discovery Channel show about HAARP, the statement "HAARP at 3.6MW is equivalent to 72,000 50kW radio antennas" got all the way through a script, a recording of the narrator saying it AND in print on a slide displayed as the narrator said it!
 

Hama Neggs

Senior Member.
It's a good indication of their level of fact-checking in general. ANYTHING which even SOUNDS like it might support their story is accepted without question and repeated. That is how it got to the sorry state we see now.
 

Pete

Member
I just love how they film planes and contrails all day and claim this is evidence for 'spraying'.... There must be countless days worth of footage on Youtube!
 
Sometimes they just don't seem to think. Many chemtrailers claim what they are seeing is aerosol trails being sprayed as a geoengineering effort to combat global warming. My understanding is that THAT program (patented but as yet, untrialled) plays out in the upper stratosphere which is more than 20km above the jet aircraft flight zone. Further, it seems that the height limit for commercial/passenger aircraft (like the ubiquitous 747) is well under 50,000 feet. It then stands as self-evident that a normal jet with a persistent trail (ie, every alleged 'chemtrail' pic) cannot possibly be part of the "geoengineering" program. I asked one chemmie if he could identify any aircraft that can fly at well over 100,000 feet and got called a "shill", a "disinformation agent", a "troll" and a "sheep" and that I even suffered from cognitive dissonance.
 

Hama Neggs

Senior Member.
Sometimes they just don't seem to think. Many chemtrailers claim what they are seeing is aerosol trails being sprayed as a geoengineering effort to combat global warming. My understanding is that THAT program (patented but as yet, untrialled) plays out in the upper stratosphere which is more than 20km above the jet aircraft flight zone. Further, it seems that the height limit for commercial/passenger aircraft (like the ubiquitous 747) is well under 50,000 feet. It then stands as self-evident that a normal jet with a persistent trail (ie, every alleged 'chemtrail' pic) cannot possibly be part of the "geoengineering" program. I asked one chemmie if he could identify any aircraft that can fly at well over 100,000 feet and got called a "shill", a "disinformation agent", a "troll" and a "sheep" and that I even suffered from cognitive dissonance.


Yep. If you point out any flaws in their evidence or their thinking, you are part of the cover-up- period!
 
The contrail is way above the little puff of cloud. One tiny bit of the cloud is very thin and see-through, so the dense contrail above it is visible.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
The contrail is way above the little puff of cloud. One tiny bit of the cloud is very thin and see-through, so the dense contrail above it is visible.

Yes, it's a bit of an optical illusion. The whites of the two clouds (i.e. the low cloud and the contrail) are not blocking any light, so the would look the same regardless of which one was higher.

It's additive transparency in computer graphics terms.

[Update: See: https://www.metabunk.org/threads/ab...ontrail-is-above-or-below-a-cloud-layer.4334/ ]
 
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TWCobra

Senior Member.
I put a debate challenge on Wigingtons web page a few weeks ago. It was deleted the next day with no acknowledgement.
 

Hama Neggs

Senior Member.
I put a debate challenge on Wigingtons web page a few weeks ago. It was deleted the next day with no acknowledgement.

I used the contact form to refer him to the fact that his challenge had been accepted when I first brought this up. I have asked several 'believers' if they would alert him to the debate challenge. None of them want to talk about it beyond calling me a "shill" for bringing it up. I have also challenged someone to bring that vid with the cumulus cloud here for discussion. No response.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
In this article Dane Wigington, apparently writing about himself in the third person, gives a clue as to why he is not interested in debate. It's because he thinks the debate is over.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/geoeng...r-atmosphere-is-a-massive-physics-lab/5340384
(emphasis mine)
The debate over whether geoengineering programs are going on is now a moot point.

We have more than enough data to confirm it. We have actual footage showing tankers spraying. The materials showing up on the ground are exactly the same materials mentioned in the numerous geoengineering patents and documents. Visit our website for a list of these government patents and documents.

Our skies today are simply not normal. Upon examination this cannot be denied. They are filled with nanoparticulates of heavy metals. But the skies have been filled with grid patterns for so long now that we are used to them and do not see them anymore. Sadly, the fact is that people do not look up.
Content from External Source
So, for him, there's no point in debate, because he's already won the debate, so why debate?

The counter argument to this is that, even if he's convinced himself, he still needs to convince other people. Other people will raise the same objections a debunker would raise. Hence he needs to be able to answer the debunker in order to convince people.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Dane's Theory in a nutshell (as much as you can cram a Gish Gallop into a nutshell):

  • The rulers of the world are insane psychopaths who don't care about anything
  • They have been geoengineering for 60 years in various ways
  • It's obvious, if you just look at the changes in the sky and do the tests
  • The forests are dying for increases in bioavailable aluminum,increased UV, and dust.
  • They use HAARP to manipulate the jet stream
  • They add aerosols to the air in the Western US to create storms in the east, and drought in-between
  • This has messed up the climate so much that it's melting the arctic ice, releasing methane
  • The rulers of the world are panicing.
  • So they are going to destroy the planet by zapping the methane with HAARP, because they are psychopaths.
  • Dane suggests the best thing to do is stop geoengineering, and let the planet heal itself

It's a shame really, as Dane is quite passionate about some real problems - global warming and pollution, and yet he conflates them with the imaginary geoengineering conspiracy theory. He's wasting time, and simply distracting from the real issues.
 

Elfenlied

Member
Sometimes they just don't seem to think. Many chemtrailers claim what they are seeing is aerosol trails being sprayed as a geoengineering effort to combat global warming. My understanding is that THAT program (patented but as yet, untrialled) plays out in the upper stratosphere which is more than 20km above the jet aircraft flight zone. Further, it seems that the height limit for commercial/passenger aircraft (like the ubiquitous 747) is well under 50,000 feet. It then stands as self-evident that a normal jet with a persistent trail (ie, every alleged 'chemtrail' pic) cannot possibly be part of the "geoengineering" program. I asked one chemmie if he could identify any aircraft that can fly at well over 100,000 feet and got called a "shill", a "disinformation agent", a "troll" and a "sheep" and that I even suffered from cognitive dissonance.
I must admit I don't see the point either. Someone has written a geoengineering proposal that plays out in the upper stratosphere, that doesn't mean it's the only possible way. If you limit air traffic to the equator around noon local time you'll get maximum negative radiative forcing; if you fly only at night you get positive radiative forcing i.e. more global warming. So in principle it's possible to use normal planes for geoengineering. I'm pretty sure that for every chemtrail scenario they would find a geoengineering proposal to fit their theory (apart from the practicalities and the actual effect it would have, which would most likely be insignificant).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_cloud_brightening
 

Hama Neggs

Senior Member.
I don't know when that article was written, but I think his claim that no one will debate him was fairly recent. In any case, he is obviously lying because he has been challenged to debate in the past, and refused. It's beyond me how these people modify reality in their own minds and then justify having done it, while refusing to realize that they HAVE done that.
 
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