# Stand Up to Detect the Curve of the Earth

Discussion in 'Flat Earth' started by Mick West, Jan 30, 2017.

Tags:
1. ### TrailblazerModeratorStaff Member

That would be great. Can you post it? If the P900 records GPS co-ordinates in the metadata then could you post that too? (Metadata gets stripped out by the forum software).

From the curve calculator, Santa Barbara island should only be visible if you are higher than about 100ft above sea level at that distance, barring any unusual refraction effects.

• Like x 1

You can email the original pic to metabunk@gmail.com so I can extract the most detail from it. It will get resampled if you just post it here. But feel free to do both.

Here what Google Earth thinks you would see standing on the beach below the Trump National Golf Course. The sea level is marked by a thin line, and does not account for refraction.

I'm post this mostly so you can tell if you are looking in the right direction. Several times these things turn out to be misidentified islands. Although in this case that seems very unlikely.

• Like x 1
4. ### Henk001Active Member

I assume you were standing on the beach, so about 2m above sealevel. without refraction, the hidden height would be about 1050 ft. But there always is a certain amount of refraction, unfortunately rather variable. As a rule of thumb you can assume that the horizon is on average roughly 7% further away than without refraction.
http://mathscinotes.com/2013/08/distance-to-the-horizon-assuming-refraction/
Recalculating the hidden height I get about 890 ft. Still more than 634ft, but at that particular day the refraction effect could have been stronger (larger temperature gradient f.i.)

• Like x 2
5. ### PhilippeNew Member

I already know all that I live there. But you still didn't answer my question as to why I can see the whole island I didn't say partially. I think what's going on here is you are mistaking curvature for perspective. In perspective you can loose your target with naked eye and bring it back in focus with powerful lenses. With curvature/declination it's not possible.

• Funny x 1
6. ### TrailblazerModeratorStaff Member

Perspective doesn't change the shape of objects, or hide parts of it: it just makes the whole thing smaller. The curve of the Earth progressively hides things from the bottom upwards, like this (comparison made from @Mick West's photos in post #2)

Perspective cannot do that, and you cannot "bring back" hidden objects by using a stronger lens. That is a common Flat Earth misconception.

Can you show us the picture you are referring to, so we can see the island?

Last edited: Mar 9, 2017
• Like x 2

Show us the photo. email it to metabunk@gmail.com

8. ### Spectrar GhostSenior Member

FYI, "declination" is the angle of a star away from the plane of the equator. What you keep calling declination is just hidden height.

9. ### Bass In Your FaceActive Member

This thread seems the best place to put this.. I hope? It's a JavaScript program involving flat/sphere visual comparisons, you can change any of the variables.. its quite useful. It has some informational models regarding what the horizon is, and mentions the Theodolite app as well.

(Thanks to DarkStar for finding this)

http://walter.bislins.ch/blog/index.asp?page=Flat-Earth:+Finding+the+curvature+of+the+Earth

From source:

This is a link to the JavaScript code:

http://walter.bislins.ch/blog/index.asp?page=JavaScript:+Simulation+of+the+Eearths+Curvature

Code:
```#INCLUDE JsGraphX3D.inc
#INCLUDE ControlPanel.inc

<jscript>

function EarthModel() {

this.rEarth = 6371000;
this.rFEarth = this.rEarth * Math.PI / 2;
this.nLines = 45;
this.showModel = 1; // 1 -> globe, 2 -> flat, 3 -> both
this.showGrid = 1; // 0 -> none, 1 -> globe, 3 -> both
this.showFlatHorizon = false;
this.showEquator = false;
this.showEyeLevel = true;
this.deviceRatio = 3 / 2; // width / height of device screen
this.sceneWidth = 0;
this.sceneHeight = 0;

this.HeightSlider = 0;
this.HeightSliderLast = 0;
this.HeightRange = 0; // 0 -> log, > 0 -> linear
this.Height = 10000;

this.ViewAngle = 60;  // viewAngle in deg
this.ViewAngleField = 60;
this.ViewAngleSlider = 0;
this.ViewAngleSliderLast = 0;
this.Roll = 0;
this.Nick = 0;
this.FocalLength = 0;
this.FocalLengthField = 0;
this.FocalLengthSlider = 0;
this.FocalLengthSliderLast = 0;

this.rDisk = 0;		  // d
this.dHorizon = 0;	   // s
this.zDisk = 0;		  // p
this.hDisk = 0;		  // R - b
this.hDip = 0;		   // b
this.aEarth = 0;		 // 180 - 2 * alpha
this.dView = 0;		  // v
this.posEarth = [ 0, 0, -this.rEarth ];
this.camPos = [ 0, 0, 0 ];
this.camUp = [ 0, 0, 1 ];
this.camViewCenter = [ 0, 1, 0 ];
this.camSceneSize = 1;

this.drawBackGGrid = false;
this.drawBackFGrid = false;
this.drawBackFE = false;

this.Update();
}

EarthModel.prototype.Update = function() {
var pi180 = Math.PI;
var pi90 = pi180 / 2;
var pi45 = pi180 / 4;
var toRad  = pi180 / 180;

if ( this.rEarth < 100000 ) this.rEarth = 100000;
this.rFEarth = this.rEarth * Math.PI / 2;

// handle height changes
if ( this.HeightSliderLast != this.HeightSlider ) {
if ( this.HeightRange == 0 ) {
this.Height = Math.pow( 10, 1 + 8 * this.HeightSlider );
} else {
this.Height = this.HeightRange * this.HeightSlider;
}
}
if ( this.Height < 0.1 ) this.Height = 0.1;
if ( this.Height > 1000000000 ) this.Height = 1000000000;
if ( this.HeightRange == 0 ) {
this.HeightSlider = ( Math.log10( this.Height ) - 1 ) / 8;
} else {
this.HeightSlider = this.Height / this.HeightRange;
}
this.HeightSliderLast = this.HeightSlider;

// handle ViewAngle and FocalLength changes
if ( this.FocalLengthSlider != this.FocalLengthSliderLast ) {
this.ViewAngle = 2 * Math.atan( 43.2 / 2 / this.FocalLengthSlider ) / toRad;
} else if ( this.FocalLengthField != this.FocalLength ) {
this.ViewAngle = 2 * Math.atan( 43.2 / 2 / this.FocalLengthField ) / toRad;
} else if ( this.ViewAngleSlider != this.ViewAngleSliderLast ) {
this.ViewAngle = this.ViewAngleSlider;
} else if ( this.ViewAngleField != this.ViewAngle ) {
this.ViewAngle = this.ViewAngleField;
}
if ( this.ViewAngle < 0.1 ) this.ViewAngle = 0.1;
if ( this.ViewAngle > 160 ) this.ViewAngle = 160;
this.FocalLength = 43.2 / ( 2 * Math.tan( this.camViewAngle / 2 ) );
this.FocalLengthField = this.FocalLength;
this.FocalLengthSlider = this.FocalLength;
this.FocalLengthSliderLast = this.FocalLengthSlider;
this.ViewAngleField = this.ViewAngle;
this.ViewAngleSlider = this.ViewAngle;
this.ViewAngleSliderLast = this.ViewAngle;

// compute diverse values
this.aDip = Math.acos( this.rEarth / (this.rEarth + this.Height) );
this.aEarth = pi180 - 2 * this.aDip;
this.rDisk = this.rEarth * Math.sin( this.aDip );
this.hDisk = this.rEarth * Math.cos( this.aDip );
this.hDip = this.rEarth - this.hDisk;
this.dView = ( this.Height + this.rEarth ) * Math.sin( this.aDip );
this.dDelta = this.showModel & 1 ? this.aDelta * this.rEarth : 0;
this.posEarth = [ 0, 0, -(this.rEarth + this.Height) ];
this.zDisk = (this.rEarth + this.Height) - ( this.rEarth * Math.cos( this.aDip ) );

// compute camViewCenter from panning
if ( Math.abs( this.Nick ) < 30 / 30 ) this.Nick = 0;
if ( Math.abs( this.Roll ) < 30 / 30 ) this.Roll = 0;
var dvc = Math.sqrt( this.rDisk * this.rDisk + this.zDisk * this.zDisk );
if ( avc > pi90 ) avc = pi90;
if ( avc < 0 ) avc = 0;
var yvc = dvc * Math.cos( avc );
var zvc = - dvc * Math.sin( avc );
this.camViewCenter = [ 0, yvc, zvc ];

// compute camera up and pos
var a = this.Roll * toRad;
this.camUp = [ Math.sin(a), 0.7, Math.cos(a) ];
this.camPos = [ 0, 0, 0 ];

// compute scene size taking device ratio into account
var vpRatio = 3 / 2;
var diag = 2 * this.dView * Math.tan( this.camViewAngle / 2 );
this.sceneHeight = diag / Math.sqrt( 1 + this.deviceRatio*this.deviceRatio );
this.sceneWidth = this.deviceRatio * this.sceneHeight;
if ( this.deviceRatio > vpRatio ) {
// device is wider then viewport
this.camSceneSize = this.sceneWidth / vpRatio;
} else {
this.camSceneSize = this.sceneHeight;
}

// looking down
var vpan = this.Nick * toRad / 2;
this.drawBackGGrid = this.aDip > pi45 + vpan;
this.drawBackFGrid = Math.atan( this.Height / this.rDisk ) > pi45 + vpan;
this.drawBackFE	= Math.atan( this.Height / (2 * this.rEarth) ) > pi45 + vpan;
}

var Model = new EarthModel();

function UpdateAll() {
Model.Update();
ControlPanels.Update();
graph.Redraw();
}

var graph = NewGraphX3D( {
Id: 'JsGraph1',
Width: '100%',
Height: '66.67%',
DrawFunc: DrawModel,
AutoReset: true,
AutoClear: true,
AutoScalePix: true
} );

function DrawModel( g ) {

g.SetViewport( 0, 1, -0.5, -2 );
g.SetGraphClipping( true, '', 0 );
g.SetWindowToCameraScreen();

g.SetCamera( {
SceneSize: Model.camSceneSize,
CamPos: Model.camPos,
CamUp: Model.camUp,
CamViewCenter: Model.camViewCenter,
} );
g.SetCameraZoom( 1 );

g.SetLineAttr( 'black', 2 );
var xDir = JsgVect3.Mult( g.Camera.ViewDir, g.Camera.CamUp );
var yDir = JsgVect3.Mult( g.Camera.ViewDir, xDir );
g.SetPlane( g.Camera.CamViewCenter, xDir, yDir, true );
g.RectOnPlane( -Model.sceneWidth/2, -Model.sceneHeight/2, Model.sceneWidth/2, Model.sceneHeight/2, 1 );

// Globe Earth

if ( Model.showModel & 1 ) {

var alpha = 0.6 - 0.5 * (Math.log10( Model.Height ) / 9);
g.SetAlpha( alpha );
g.SetLineAttr( 'blue', 1 );

// show globe grid
if ( Model.showGrid & 1 ) {

// latitude lines
var latStart = -( Math.floor( latMax / Model.aDelta ) * Model.aDelta );
if (!Model.drawBackGGrid) latStart = 0;
for ( var lat = latStart; lat < latMax; lat += Model.aDelta ) {
var dLatPlaneDisk = Model.hDisk / Math.cos( lat );
var longMax = Math.acos( dLatPlaneDisk / Model.rEarth );
var longStart = -( Math.floor( longMax / Model.aDelta ) * Model.aDelta );
g.NewPoly();
for ( var long = longStart; long < longMax; long += Model.aDelta ) {
g.AddPointToPoly3D( PointOnEarth( lat, long ) );
}
g.AddPointToPoly3D( PointOnEarth( lat, longMax ) );
g.DrawPoly( 1 );
}

// longitude lines
var longStart = -( Math.floor( longMax / Model.aDelta ) * Model.aDelta );
for ( var long = longStart; long < longMax; long += Model.aDelta ) {
var rLong = Model.rEarth * Math.cos( long );
var latMax = Math.acos( Model.hDisk / rLong );
var latStart = -( Math.floor( latMax / Model.aDelta ) * Model.aDelta );
if (!Model.drawBackGGrid) latStart = 0;
g.NewPoly();
if (Model.drawBackGGrid) g.AddPointToPoly3D( PointOnEarth( -latMax, long ) );
for ( var lat = latStart; lat < latMax; lat += Model.aDelta ) {
g.AddPointToPoly3D( PointOnEarth( lat, long ) );
}
g.AddPointToPoly3D( PointOnEarth( latMax, long ) );
g.DrawPoly( 1 );
}

} // end show globe grid

g.SetLineAttr( 'red', 1 );

// show flat grid
if ( Model.showGrid & 2 ) {

// latitude lines on flat model
var latStart = -( Math.floor( latMax / Model.aDelta ) * Model.aDelta );
if (!Model.drawBackFGrid) latStart = 0;
for ( var lat = latStart; lat < latMax; lat += Model.aDelta ) {
var dLatPlaneDisk = Model.hDisk / Math.cos( lat );
var longMax = Math.acos( dLatPlaneDisk / Model.rEarth );
var longStart = -( Math.floor( longMax / Model.aDelta ) * Model.aDelta );
g.NewPoly();
for ( var long = longStart; long < longMax; long += Model.aDelta ) {
g.AddPointToPoly3D( PointOnPlane( lat, long ) );
}
g.AddPointToPoly3D( PointOnPlane( lat, longMax ) );
g.DrawPoly( 1 );
}

// longitude lines on flat model
var longStart = -( Math.floor( longMax / Model.aDelta ) * Model.aDelta );
for ( var long = longStart; long < longMax; long += Model.aDelta ) {
var rLong = Model.rEarth * Math.cos( long );
var latMax = Math.acos( Model.hDisk / rLong );
var latStart = -( Math.floor( latMax / Model.aDelta ) * Model.aDelta );
if (!Model.drawBackFGrid) latStart = 0;
g.NewPoly();
if (Model.drawBackFGrid) g.AddPointToPoly3D( PointOnPlane( -latMax, long ) );
for ( var lat = latStart; lat < latMax; lat += Model.aDelta ) {
g.AddPointToPoly3D( PointOnPlane( lat, long ) );
}
g.AddPointToPoly3D( PointOnPlane( latMax, long ) );
g.DrawPoly( 1 );
}

} // end flat grid

if ( (Model.showGrid & 2) || Model.showFlatHorizon ) {

// horizon on flat model
var aMax = Model.drawBackFGrid ? Math.PI * 2 : Math.PI;
g.SetPlane( [ 0, 0, -Model.Height ], [ 1, 0, 0 ], [ 0, 1, 0 ] );
g.SetAlpha( 1 );
g.SetLineAttr( 'red', 2 );
g.ArcOnPlane( 0, 0, Model.rDisk, 0, aMax, 1 );

}

if ( Model.showEquator ) {

// equator
var aMax = Model.drawBackFGrid ? Math.PI * 2 : Math.PI;
g.SetPlane( [ 0, 0, -Model.Height ], [ 1, 0, 0 ], [ 0, 1, 0 ] );
g.SetAlpha( 1 );
g.SetLineAttr( 'black', 1 );
g.ArcOnPlane( 0, 0, Model.rFEarth, 0, aMax, 1 );

}

// Globe Horizon
var aMax = Model.drawBackGGrid ? Math.PI * 2 : Math.PI;
g.SetAlpha( 1 );
g.SetLineAttr( 'blue', 2 );
g.SetPlane( [ 0, 0, -Model.zDisk ], [ 1, 0, 0 ], [ 0, 1, 0 ] );
g.ArcOnPlane( 0, 0, Model.rDisk, 0, aMax, 1 );

} // end model globe

// Flat Earth

if ( Model.showModel & 2 ) {

var alpha = 0.6 - 0.5 * (Math.log10( Model.Height ) / 9);
g.SetAlpha( alpha );
g.SetLineAttr( 'black', 1 );

// circle lines
var aMax = Model.drawBackFE ? Math.PI * 2 : Math.PI;
var crDelta = Model.rFEarth / 12;
var crMax = 2 * Model.rFEarth - crDelta / 2;
g.SetPlane( [ 0, 0, -Model.Height ], [ 1, 0, 0 ], [ 0, 1, 0 ] );
for ( var cr = crDelta; cr < crMax; cr += crDelta ) {
g.ArcOnPlane( 0, 0, cr, 0, aMax, 1 );
}
if (Model.Height < 700000) {
crMax = crDelta;
crDelta /= 10;
crMax -= crDelta / 2;
for ( var cr = crDelta; cr < crMax; cr += crDelta ) {
g.ArcOnPlane( 0, 0, cr, 0, aMax, 1 );
}
}
if (Model.Height < 30000) {
crMax = crDelta;
crDelta /= 10;
crMax -= crDelta / 2;
for ( var cr = crDelta; cr < crMax; cr += crDelta ) {
g.ArcOnPlane( 0, 0, cr, 0, aMax, 1 );
}
}
if (Model.Height < 3000) {
crMax = crDelta;
crDelta /= 10;
crMax -= crDelta / 2;
for ( var cr = crDelta; cr < crMax; cr += crDelta ) {
g.ArcOnPlane( 0, 0, cr, 0, aMax, 1 );
}
}
if (Model.Height < 300) {
crMax = crDelta;
crDelta /= 10;
crMax -= crDelta / 2;
for ( var cr = crDelta; cr < crMax; cr += crDelta ) {
g.ArcOnPlane( 0, 0, cr, 0, aMax, 1 );
}
}
g.SetAlpha( 1 );
g.ArcOnPlane( 0, 0, Model.rFEarth, 0, aMax, 1 );
g.SetLineAttr( 'black', 2 );
g.ArcOnPlane( 0, 0, 2*Model.rFEarth, 0, aMax, 1 );

// ray lines
g.SetAlpha( alpha );
g.SetLineAttr( 'black', 1 );
var caDelta = Math.PI / 12;
var caMax = Model.drawBackFE ? 2 * Math.PI : Math.PI;
var r = 2 * Model.rFEarth;
for ( var ca = 0; ca < caMax; ca += caDelta ) {
var c = Math.cos( ca );
var s = Math.sin( ca );
g.LineOnPlane( r * c, r * s, 0, 0 );
}

} // end nLines > 0

if ( Model.showEyeLevel ) {
g.SetLineAttr( 'magenta', 1 );
g.SetAlpha( 1 );
g.Line3D( [ -Model.sceneWidth/2, Model.rDisk, 0 ], [ Model.sceneWidth/2, Model.rDisk, 0 ] );
g.SetTextAttr( 'Arial', 12, 'magenta', 'normal', 'normal', 'venter', 'bottom', 6 );
g.SetTextRotation( -Model.Roll*Math.PI/180 );
g.Text3D( 'Eye-Level', [ 0, Model.rDisk, 0 ] );
}
}

function PointOnEarth( lat, long ) {
var x = Model.rEarth * Math.sin( long );
var rr = Model.rEarth * Math.cos( long );
var y = rr * Math.sin( lat );
var z = rr * Math.cos( lat );
return [ x, y, z - (Model.rEarth + Model.Height) ];
}

function PointOnPlane( lat, long ) {
var x = Model.rEarth * Math.sin( long );
var rr = Model.rEarth * Math.cos( long );
var y = rr * Math.sin( lat );
return [ x, y, -Model.Height ];
}

ControlPanels.NewSliderPanel( {
ModelRef: 'Model',
OnModelChange: UpdateAll,
Format: 'std',
Digits: 3,
PanelFormat: 'InputMediumWidth'

Name: 'Height',
ValueRef: 'Height',
SliderValueRef: 'HeightSlider',
Mult: 1000,
Units: 'km',
Color: 'blue',
Min: 0,
Max: 1

Name: 'ViewAngle',
Label: 'View&ang;',
ValueRef: 'ViewAngleField',
SliderValueRef: 'ViewAngleSlider',
Units: '&deg;',
Color: 'black',
Min: 5,
Max: 90

Name: 'FocalLength',
ValueRef: 'FocalLengthField',
SliderValueRef: 'FocalLengthSlider',
Label: 'f',
Units: 'mm',
Color: 'black',
Min: 21,
Max: 500

} ).Render();

ControlPanels.NewSliderPanel( {
ModelRef: 'Model',
OnModelChange: UpdateAll,
NCols: 2,
Format: 'fix0',
Digits: 0,
PanelFormat: 'InputMediumWidth'

Name: 'Nick',
Format: 'std',
Digits: 3,
Units: '&deg;',
Color: 'green',
Min: -45,
Max: 30

Name: 'Roll',
Format: 'std',
Digits: 3,
Units: '&deg;',
Color: 'green',
Min: -45,
Max: 45

} ).Render();

ControlPanels.NewPanel( {
Name: 'Options',
ModelRef: 'Model',
NCols: 2,
OnModelChange: UpdateAll

Name: 'showModel',
Label: 'Model',
ValueType: 'int',
Items: [
{
Name: 'Globe',
Value: 1
}, {
Name: 'Globe+Flat',
Value: 3
}, {
Name: 'Flat',
Value: 2
}
]

Name: 'HeightRange',
ValueType: 'int',
Items: [
{
Name: '50',
Text: '50',
Value: 50000
}, {
Name: '500',
Text: '500',
Value: 500000
}, {
Name: '20000',
Text: '20&thinsp;000',
Value: 20000000
}, {
Name: 'Log',
Value: 0
}
]

Name: 'showGrid',
Label: 'Grid',
ValueType: 'int',
Items: [
{
Name: 'None',
Value: 0
}, {
Name: 'Globe',
Value: 1
}, {
Name: 'Globe+Flat',
Value: 3
}
]

Name: 'nLines',
Label: 'Lines',
ValueType: 'int',
Items: [
{
Name: '15',
Value: 15
}, {
Name: '30',
Value: 30
}, {
Name: '45',
Value: 45
}, {
Name: '60',
Value: 60
}, {
Name: '90',
Value: 90
}
]

Name: 'Show',
Label: 'Show',
Items: [
{
Name: 'showEyeLevel',
Text: 'EyeLevel',
}, {
Name: 'showFlatHorizon',
Text: 'FE-Horizon',
}, {
Name: 'showEquator',
Text: 'FE-Equator',
}
]

Name: 'deviceRatio',
Label: 'AspectRatio',
ValueType: 'num',
Items: [
{
Name: '3:2',
Value: 3/2
}, {
Name: '2:3',
Value: 2/3
}, {
Name: '16:9',
Value: 16/9
}, {
Name: '9:16',
Value: 9/16
}
]

} ).Render();

ControlPanels.NewPanel( {
Name: 'Output',
ModelRef: 'Model',
OnModelChange: UpdateAll,
NCols: 2,
Format: 'std',
Digits: 4

Name: 'hDip',
Label: 'DipHeight(b)',
Mult: 1000,
Units: 'km'

Label: 'DipAngle(&alpha;)',
Mult: Math.PI / 180,
Units: '&deg;'

Name: 'dHorizon',
Label: 'HorDist(s)',
Mult: 1000,
Units: 'km'

Name: 'aEarth',
Label: 'AngDiameter',
Mult: Math.PI / 180,
Units: '&deg;'

Name: 'rDisk',
Label: 'HorDistX(d)',
Mult: 1000,
Units: 'km'

Name: 'dDelta',
Label: 'LineSpacing',
Mult: 1000,
Units: 'km'

Name: 'zDisk',
Label: 'HorDistZ(p)',
Mult: 1000,
Units: 'km'

Name: 'dView',
Label: 'HorDistView(v)',
Mult: 1000,
Units: 'km'

Name: 'rEarth',
Mult: 1000,
Units: 'km',

} ).Render();

</jscript>```

• Like x 1
• Useful x 1
10. ### Henk001Active Member

Very useful. And his own commentaries below are also worth reading.

11. ### TrailblazerModeratorStaff Member

Did @Philippe ever send his photo? I'd be interested to see it, if it shows what he claims.

No, he did not send it or post it.

13. ### JTolanClosed AccountBanned

I've taken a lot of pictures of the islands and oil rigs visible from Santa Barbara, CA during the past year, in both visible and infrared light. Most of the time I see farther then the calculated horizon should allow, but that does not necessarily mean the earth is "flat" because other phenomena might be at work.

It is no mystery atmospheric light refraction (i.e., light bending in the air) plays a big part, however, I have discovered that near the surface of water, light actually bends upward making objects seem to disappear sooner then they should, usually on a clear day (dry air and high moisture gradient near the surface) Other times the bending can be downward, making distant targets visible (atmosphere has a general negative gradient, i.e. air get thinner with altitude) Because of the complex light bending phenomena close to the water air boundary, and the constantly changing conditions, it is not easy to pin down with high confidence exactly what phenomena is at work at a particular time of the day. When the mirage is seen, it is clear that light bending is upward at the boundary, but when it is not, the question is can we assume light now travels straight? There are also coastal effects like tides, maybe water tension, and/or gravitational variations, etc.., making a definitive answer a bit elusive.

Anyway, here's some of my pictures, enjoy.

1) my first picture after I learned of the "flat earth" and headed out to the beach to check for myself. (Behind the oil rig those are the Santa Monica Mountains, by Point Mugu, photo was taken from Santa Barbara pier)

2) Santa Cruz island viewed from the Santa Barbara beach. I used the visible valley (blue lines) as a known height reference (its about 80 ft based on topological maps), showing that indeed we see to the water level, (the bottom of the valley is about 600 ft in elevation) Usually when it's hazy outside the water vapor is more evenly distributed and index of refraction more uniform, thus less bending occurs making long distance views possible.

3) Boat should not be visible, weather was beautiful, no wind.

4) note time difference of about 5 hrs. If you don't like the curvature, just wait a while

5) this is taken with a IR720 filter, I've been experimenting to see if I can see through the mist. The best is really SWIR, but those are not sold to the public (ITAR restricted)

Last edited: Jun 5, 2017
• Like x 1
14. ### PhilippeNew Member

You keep showing evidence of a flat plane you will be removed. Hahahah! They don't like observable evidence that contradicts their ball model. Good luck.

• Dislike x 1
• Disagree x 1

You were going to provide a photo of Catalina. Where is it?

16. ### PhilippeNew Member

I have been removed just posting this.

After months of research I have no doubt there is no curvature anywhere to be seen. If the curvature is measurable it should be observable as targets disappearing over the horizon could NOT stay perpendicular on the surface of a ball. This links proves without a shadow of a doubt that no matter how many 100 miles of flat horizon there is you cannot create a curve.
https://beyondhorizons.eu/tag/photography/

• Like x 1
• Funny x 1
17. ### PhilippeNew Member

Last edited by a moderator: Jun 5, 2017
18. ### TrailblazerModeratorStaff Member

I suggest that you actually read the site before linking to it. That site has an extensive discussion of the Earth's curvature and what it means for intervisibility of mountains:

https://beyondhorizons.eu/visibility-facts/geometrics/

• Like x 2

That's great, now can you show the same view from the beach for comparison?

20. ### TrailblazerModeratorStaff Member

Actually @Philippe claimed that he could see Santa Barbara island from the same spot: specifically, he said. from the beach below the cliffs. That's the photo I'd really like to see.

Ah yes:
The photos linked above are clearly of Catalina Island, showing Two Harbors just peeking though the horizon refraction.

They are also clearly from the clifftop, and not the beach. So the view is as expected. (Probable, as sometimes refraction can create a join there)

Sea level would have more obscured, giving a (probable) gap where Two Harbors is.

22. ### TrailblazerModeratorStaff Member

The cliff edge has a height of 164ft at its lowest, so the camera height would be approx 170ft at least. The distance to Two Harbors is 21.6 miles, giving an obscured height of only about 11 feet.

From sea level (camera height 6ft) the obscured height should be far bigger: about 193 feet.

Can you show us a photo of either island from the beach, @Philippe?

This photo:

Might be from here:

Which is 57 feet (eye level being 62-63 feet)

The un-refracted view from there is similar.

Edit: Scratch that. I though those were bushes blocking the path, but the path continues down to sea level.

I await @Philippe's clarification of the photo spot, and some photos from the beach (of Catalina would be fine)

Last edited: Jun 5, 2017
24. ### AbishuaMember

wow! Even with Micks calc this comes out as 5km hidden! And the mountain is 4km high only and it's not only tops what we see there! There seems to be at least a few km's of missing curvature there

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What exactly are you referring to there? Please show the actual numbers.

26. ### TrailblazerModeratorStaff Member

The photo being referred to shows Barre des Ecrins (4102m tall) photographed from Pic de Finestrelles (2820m tall) at a distance of 440km.

With standard refraction that means 3721m should be hidden, leaving 281 metres visible.

The whole website is about finding the longest lines of sight possible on a globe Earth and trying to take photos of them. If the Earth was flat then much longer lines of sight ought to be possible.

28. ### SkepticalofskepticsNew Member

How could you tell if that wasn't just from you being able to see over the waves/ the rippples and waves getting in the way

Last edited by a moderator: Sep 18, 2017

Because the waves were a few feet at most. Going up 40 feet revealed over 150 feet of Catalina. You could also see the horizon getting further away.

• Informative x 1
30. ### Eugene kwakNew Member

Have you done any ground level test yourself? I'm a flat earther and I have done tests myself. Ground level test. Anything that is televised or photographed to me is discredited. Real life tests and observation is the only way to prove yourself. I am convinced because I seen my friend's whole boat 20 miles away from shore with a telescope on a 3 ft tripod. Even though I shared the pic with a few, everyone claimed it was fake. So I decided to stop using pictures or videos to be evidence and tell people to do their own tests an observation instead of relying other sources. All you need is a small boat with a high tech camera or telescope. Trust me, you will still see the boat from miles away that the calculations of a round earth don't match up to what you see.

Last edited by a moderator: Nov 15, 2017

I moved this post from another thread where it was off-topic.

The answer, of course, is yes. I've done ground level tests, some of which are described in this thread, and they demonstrate the curve of the earth.

Viewing a 20-mile away boat from 3ft above the water is essentially impossible. You can get refraction to bend light that far, but there would be significant and obvious distortion. This type of experiment is best done with large objects like mountains.

Please post your photo and location details, and we can explain what you are likely seeing.

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@Philippe, please show us photos from the beach before changing the subject.

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34. ### RorySenior Member

The photo we're talking about is the one you said you had of Santa Barbara Island from just above sea level.
That looks like a lovely place to play football, by the way.

Last edited: Nov 15, 2017
35. ### PhilippeNew Member

No curvature in the soccer field and yet the goal posts disappears just like your ridiculous sail boat example. Anyone with a brain can take pictures of things disappearing over the horizon, it doesn’t mean the surface curves. I am not sure where you guys get that logic. You must have fisheyes or something! I have saved some of your photos and presented to professional photographers and they are laughing at the idea that someone with your reputation is promoting such nonsense. Truly a disgrace to photography.

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36. ### Bruno D.Senior Member

Please share the names of those professional photographers or ask them to come to this forum for an open discussion

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37. ### PhilippeNew Member

Never said anything about Catalina Island, it was actually Santa Barbara Isalnd, Big difference since it’s 43 miles away and for the past two weeks I have observe it every day while walking my dogs down below at the beach of Trump Golf Club.

38. ### deirdreModeratorStaff Member

where is this soccer field? exactly?

The thread is "stand up to detect the curvature", so you would have to stand up in those photos. Please try to stay on topic. and watch yourself in regards to the Politeness Policy.

39. ### TrailspotterSenior Member

A propper soccer field is not flat but is slightly raised in the middle and gently slopes to the sides and the ends for drainage. This middle bump would be sufficient to hide the bottom of the goal posts, if they are observed from the ground.

• Agree x 3
40. ### RorySenior Member

Though you did link to and post photos of Catalina Island, that's right, it's the one of Santa Barbara Island that we're waiting to see. It's been eight months since you wrote "I'd be happy to show it to you" - but while you've shown several other photographs, we still haven't seen this one.
That's a great suggestion. If he does that and can't see more of the lower portion of the distant goals, then he can show whether the field is flat or not.

Last edited: Nov 15, 2017