Stand Up to Detect the Curve of the Earth

Trailblazer

Moderator
Staff member
I specifically said SEA LEVEL because that's where i was at the bottom of the hill on the rocky beach where there is a public trail. I have taken a photo with my Nikon P900, I would be happy to show it to you.
That would be great. Can you post it? If the P900 records GPS co-ordinates in the metadata then could you post that too? (Metadata gets stripped out by the forum software).

From the curve calculator, Santa Barbara island should only be visible if you are higher than about 100ft above sea level at that distance, barring any unusual refraction effects.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I specifically said SEA LEVEL because that's where i was at the bottom of the hill on the rocky beach where there is a public trail. I have taken a photo with my Nikon P900, I would be happy to show it to you.
You can email the original pic to metabunk@gmail.com so I can extract the most detail from it. It will get resampled if you just post it here. But feel free to do both.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Here what Google Earth thinks you would see standing on the beach below the Trump National Golf Course. The sea level is marked by a thin line, and does not account for refraction.
20170309-093206-10ie4.jpg

I'm post this mostly so you can tell if you are looking in the right direction. Several times these things turn out to be misidentified islands. Although in this case that seems very unlikely.
 

Henk001

Active Member
could you please explain how I was able to see Santa Barbara Island 43 miles away to the naked eyes from Trump National Golf Club (Palos Verdes, Los Angeles) at sea level when there is a declination of over 1200 feet but the tallest summit Signal Hill on Santa Barbara is only 634 feet high?
I assume you were standing on the beach, so about 2m above sealevel. without refraction, the hidden height would be about 1050 ft. But there always is a certain amount of refraction, unfortunately rather variable. As a rule of thumb you can assume that the horizon is on average roughly 7% further away than without refraction.
http://mathscinotes.com/2013/08/distance-to-the-horizon-assuming-refraction/
Recalculating the hidden height I get about 890 ft. Still more than 634ft, but at that particular day the refraction effect could have been stronger (larger temperature gradient f.i.)
 

Philippe

New Member
View attachment 25768

Palos Verdes is a great place to observe the larger scale effect for a couple of reasons:
  1. It has cliffs with beach access in places, so you can take photos at near sea level (like 2 feet) then all the way up to 200 feet at the top of the cliff.
  2. It has a good view of Catalina Island and Santa Barbara Island.
Santa Barbara Island in particular offers us another great advantage - at certain times of the year the sun sets behind the island, giving a great contrast against the sky (and sometimes even the sun itself). The islands both have two distinct peaks, allowing us to scale an image to see how much has been obscured.

Example from Rancho Palos Verde (probably taken from several hundred feet above the golf course)
http://dailyphotofromranchopalosverdes.blogspot.com/2012/01/winter-sunset.html
View attachment 25769
I already know all that I live there. But you still didn't answer my question as to why I can see the whole island I didn't say partially. I think what's going on here is you are mistaking curvature for perspective. In perspective you can loose your target with naked eye and bring it back in focus with powerful lenses. With curvature/declination it's not possible.
 

Trailblazer

Moderator
Staff member
I think what's going on here is you are mistaking curvature for perspective. In perspective you can loose your target with naked eye and bring it back in focus with powerful lenses. With curvature/declination it's not possible.
Perspective doesn't change the shape of objects, or hide parts of it: it just makes the whole thing smaller. The curve of the Earth progressively hides things from the bottom upwards, like this (comparison made from @Mick West's photos in post #2)

high.jpglow.jpg


Perspective cannot do that, and you cannot "bring back" hidden objects by using a stronger lens. That is a common Flat Earth misconception.

Can you show us the picture you are referring to, so we can see the island?
 
Last edited:

Spectrar Ghost

Senior Member
FYI, "declination" is the angle of a star away from the plane of the equator. What you keep calling declination is just hidden height.
 

Bass In Your Face

Active Member
This thread seems the best place to put this.. I hope? It's a JavaScript program involving flat/sphere visual comparisons, you can change any of the variables.. its quite useful. It has some informational models regarding what the horizon is, and mentions the Theodolite app as well.

(Thanks to DarkStar for finding this)

http://walter.bislins.ch/blog/index.asp?page=Flat-Earth:+Finding+the+curvature+of+the+Earth

From source:




This is a link to the JavaScript code:

http://walter.bislins.ch/blog/index.asp?page=JavaScript:+Simulation+of+the+Eearths+Curvature

Code:
#INCLUDE JsGraphX3D.inc
#INCLUDE ControlPanel.inc

<jscript>

function EarthModel() {

  this.rEarth = 6371000;
  this.rFEarth = this.rEarth * Math.PI / 2;
  this.nLines = 45;
  this.showModel = 1; // 1 -> globe, 2 -> flat, 3 -> both
  this.showGrid = 1; // 0 -> none, 1 -> globe, 3 -> both
  this.showFlatHorizon = false;
  this.showEquator = false;
  this.showEyeLevel = true;
  this.deviceRatio = 3 / 2; // width / height of device screen
  this.sceneWidth = 0;
  this.sceneHeight = 0;

  this.HeightSlider = 0;
  this.HeightSliderLast = 0;
  this.HeightRange = 0; // 0 -> log, > 0 -> linear
  this.Height = 10000;

  this.ViewAngle = 60;  // viewAngle in deg
  this.ViewAngleField = 60;
  this.ViewAngleSlider = 0;
  this.ViewAngleSliderLast = 0;
  this.Roll = 0;
  this.Nick = 0;
  this.FocalLength = 0;
  this.FocalLengthField = 0;
  this.FocalLengthSlider = 0;
  this.FocalLengthSliderLast = 0;

  this.rDisk = 0;		  // d
  this.dHorizon = 0;	   // s
  this.zDisk = 0;		  // p
  this.hDisk = 0;		  // R - b
  this.hDip = 0;		   // b
  this.aDip = 0;		   // alpha
  this.aEarth = 0;		 // 180 - 2 * alpha
  this.dView = 0;		  // v
  this.aDelta = 0;		 // aDip / nLines
  this.posEarth = [ 0, 0, -this.rEarth ];
  this.camViewAngle = 0.1; // rad
  this.camPos = [ 0, 0, 0 ];
  this.camUp = [ 0, 0, 1 ];
  this.camViewCenter = [ 0, 1, 0 ];
  this.camSceneSize = 1;

  this.drawBackGGrid = false;
  this.drawBackFGrid = false;
  this.drawBackFE = false;

  this.Update();
}

EarthModel.prototype.Update = function() {
  var pi180 = Math.PI;
  var pi90 = pi180 / 2;
  var pi45 = pi180 / 4;
  var toRad  = pi180 / 180;

  if ( this.rEarth < 100000 ) this.rEarth = 100000;
  this.rFEarth = this.rEarth * Math.PI / 2;

  // handle height changes
  if ( this.HeightSliderLast != this.HeightSlider ) {
	if ( this.HeightRange == 0 ) {
	  this.Height = Math.pow( 10, 1 + 8 * this.HeightSlider );
	} else {
	  this.Height = this.HeightRange * this.HeightSlider;
	}
  }
  if ( this.Height < 0.1 ) this.Height = 0.1;
  if ( this.Height > 1000000000 ) this.Height = 1000000000;
  if ( this.HeightRange == 0 ) {
	this.HeightSlider = ( Math.log10( this.Height ) - 1 ) / 8;
  } else {
	this.HeightSlider = this.Height / this.HeightRange;
  }
  this.HeightSliderLast = this.HeightSlider;

  // handle ViewAngle and FocalLength changes
  if ( this.FocalLengthSlider != this.FocalLengthSliderLast ) {
	this.ViewAngle = 2 * Math.atan( 43.2 / 2 / this.FocalLengthSlider ) / toRad;
  } else if ( this.FocalLengthField != this.FocalLength ) {
	this.ViewAngle = 2 * Math.atan( 43.2 / 2 / this.FocalLengthField ) / toRad;
  } else if ( this.ViewAngleSlider != this.ViewAngleSliderLast ) {
	this.ViewAngle = this.ViewAngleSlider;
  } else if ( this.ViewAngleField != this.ViewAngle ) {
	this.ViewAngle = this.ViewAngleField;
  }
  if ( this.ViewAngle < 0.1 ) this.ViewAngle = 0.1;
  if ( this.ViewAngle > 160 ) this.ViewAngle = 160;
  this.camViewAngle = this.ViewAngle * toRad;
  this.FocalLength = 43.2 / ( 2 * Math.tan( this.camViewAngle / 2 ) );
  this.FocalLengthField = this.FocalLength;
  this.FocalLengthSlider = this.FocalLength;
  this.FocalLengthSliderLast = this.FocalLengthSlider;
  this.ViewAngleField = this.ViewAngle;
  this.ViewAngleSlider = this.ViewAngle;
  this.ViewAngleSliderLast = this.ViewAngle;

  // compute diverse values
  this.aDip = Math.acos( this.rEarth / (this.rEarth + this.Height) );
  this.aEarth = pi180 - 2 * this.aDip;
  this.rDisk = this.rEarth * Math.sin( this.aDip );
  this.dHorizon = this.rEarth * this.aDip;
  this.hDisk = this.rEarth * Math.cos( this.aDip );
  this.hDip = this.rEarth - this.hDisk;
  this.dView = ( this.Height + this.rEarth ) * Math.sin( this.aDip );
  this.aDelta = this.aDip / this.nLines;
  this.dDelta = this.showModel & 1 ? this.aDelta * this.rEarth : 0;
  this.posEarth = [ 0, 0, -(this.rEarth + this.Height) ];
  this.zDisk = (this.rEarth + this.Height) - ( this.rEarth * Math.cos( this.aDip ) );

  // compute camViewCenter from panning
  if ( Math.abs( this.Nick ) < 30 / 30 ) this.Nick = 0;
  if ( Math.abs( this.Roll ) < 30 / 30 ) this.Roll = 0;
  var dvc = Math.sqrt( this.rDisk * this.rDisk + this.zDisk * this.zDisk );
  var avc = this.aDip - this.Nick * toRad;
  if ( avc > pi90 ) avc = pi90;
  if ( avc < 0 ) avc = 0;
  var yvc = dvc * Math.cos( avc );
  var zvc = - dvc * Math.sin( avc );
  this.camViewCenter = [ 0, yvc, zvc ];

  // compute camera up and pos
  var a = this.Roll * toRad;
  this.camUp = [ Math.sin(a), 0.7, Math.cos(a) ];
  this.camPos = [ 0, 0, 0 ];

  // compute scene size taking device ratio into account
  var vpRatio = 3 / 2;
  var diag = 2 * this.dView * Math.tan( this.camViewAngle / 2 );
  this.sceneHeight = diag / Math.sqrt( 1 + this.deviceRatio*this.deviceRatio );
  this.sceneWidth = this.deviceRatio * this.sceneHeight;
  if ( this.deviceRatio > vpRatio ) {
	// device is wider then viewport
	this.camSceneSize = this.sceneWidth / vpRatio;
  } else {
	this.camSceneSize = this.sceneHeight;
  }

  // looking down
  var vpan = this.Nick * toRad / 2;
  this.drawBackGGrid = this.aDip > pi45 + vpan;
  this.drawBackFGrid = Math.atan( this.Height / this.rDisk ) > pi45 + vpan;
  this.drawBackFE	= Math.atan( this.Height / (2 * this.rEarth) ) > pi45 + vpan;
}

var Model = new EarthModel();

function UpdateAll() {
  Model.Update();
  ControlPanels.Update();
  graph.Redraw();
}

var graph = NewGraphX3D( {
  Id: 'JsGraph1',
  Width: '100%',
  Height: '66.67%',
  DrawFunc: DrawModel,
  AutoReset: true,
  AutoClear: true,
  AutoScalePix: true
} );

function DrawModel( g ) {

  g.SetAngleMeasure( 'rad' );
  g.SetViewport( 0, 1, -0.5, -2 );
  g.SetGraphClipping( true, '', 0 );
  g.SetWindowToCameraScreen();

  g.SetCamera( {
	SceneSize: Model.camSceneSize,
	CamPos: Model.camPos,
	CamUp: Model.camUp,
	CamViewCenter: Model.camViewCenter,
  } );
  g.SetCameraZoom( 1 );

  g.SetLineAttr( 'black', 2 );
  var xDir = JsgVect3.Mult( g.Camera.ViewDir, g.Camera.CamUp );
  var yDir = JsgVect3.Mult( g.Camera.ViewDir, xDir );
  g.SetPlane( g.Camera.CamViewCenter, xDir, yDir, true );
  g.RectOnPlane( -Model.sceneWidth/2, -Model.sceneHeight/2, Model.sceneWidth/2, Model.sceneHeight/2, 1 );

  // Globe Earth

  if ( Model.showModel & 1 ) {

	var alpha = 0.6 - 0.5 * (Math.log10( Model.Height ) / 9);
	g.SetAlpha( alpha );
	g.SetLineAttr( 'blue', 1 );

	// show globe grid
	if ( Model.showGrid & 1 ) {

	  // latitude lines
	  var latMax = Model.aDip;
	  var latStart = -( Math.floor( latMax / Model.aDelta ) * Model.aDelta );
	  if (!Model.drawBackGGrid) latStart = 0;
	  for ( var lat = latStart; lat < latMax; lat += Model.aDelta ) {
		var dLatPlaneDisk = Model.hDisk / Math.cos( lat );
		var longMax = Math.acos( dLatPlaneDisk / Model.rEarth );
		var longStart = -( Math.floor( longMax / Model.aDelta ) * Model.aDelta );
		g.NewPoly();
		for ( var long = longStart; long < longMax; long += Model.aDelta ) {
		  g.AddPointToPoly3D( PointOnEarth( lat, long ) );
		}
		g.AddPointToPoly3D( PointOnEarth( lat, longMax ) );
		g.DrawPoly( 1 );
	  }

	  // longitude lines
	  var longMax = Model.aDip;
	  var longStart = -( Math.floor( longMax / Model.aDelta ) * Model.aDelta );
	  for ( var long = longStart; long < longMax; long += Model.aDelta ) {
		var rLong = Model.rEarth * Math.cos( long );
		var latMax = Math.acos( Model.hDisk / rLong );
		var latStart = -( Math.floor( latMax / Model.aDelta ) * Model.aDelta );
		if (!Model.drawBackGGrid) latStart = 0;
		g.NewPoly();
		if (Model.drawBackGGrid) g.AddPointToPoly3D( PointOnEarth( -latMax, long ) );
		for ( var lat = latStart; lat < latMax; lat += Model.aDelta ) {
		  g.AddPointToPoly3D( PointOnEarth( lat, long ) );
		}
		g.AddPointToPoly3D( PointOnEarth( latMax, long ) );
		g.DrawPoly( 1 );
	  }

	} // end show globe grid

	g.SetLineAttr( 'red', 1 );

	// show flat grid
	if ( Model.showGrid & 2 ) {

	  // latitude lines on flat model
	  var latMax = Model.aDip;
	  var latStart = -( Math.floor( latMax / Model.aDelta ) * Model.aDelta );
	  if (!Model.drawBackFGrid) latStart = 0;
	  for ( var lat = latStart; lat < latMax; lat += Model.aDelta ) {
		var dLatPlaneDisk = Model.hDisk / Math.cos( lat );
		var longMax = Math.acos( dLatPlaneDisk / Model.rEarth );
		var longStart = -( Math.floor( longMax / Model.aDelta ) * Model.aDelta );
		g.NewPoly();
		for ( var long = longStart; long < longMax; long += Model.aDelta ) {
		  g.AddPointToPoly3D( PointOnPlane( lat, long ) );
		}
		g.AddPointToPoly3D( PointOnPlane( lat, longMax ) );
		g.DrawPoly( 1 );
	  }

	  // longitude lines on flat model
	  var longMax = Model.aDip;
	  var longStart = -( Math.floor( longMax / Model.aDelta ) * Model.aDelta );
	  for ( var long = longStart; long < longMax; long += Model.aDelta ) {
		var rLong = Model.rEarth * Math.cos( long );
		var latMax = Math.acos( Model.hDisk / rLong );
		var latStart = -( Math.floor( latMax / Model.aDelta ) * Model.aDelta );
		if (!Model.drawBackFGrid) latStart = 0;
		g.NewPoly();
		if (Model.drawBackFGrid) g.AddPointToPoly3D( PointOnPlane( -latMax, long ) );
		for ( var lat = latStart; lat < latMax; lat += Model.aDelta ) {
		  g.AddPointToPoly3D( PointOnPlane( lat, long ) );
		}
		g.AddPointToPoly3D( PointOnPlane( latMax, long ) );
		g.DrawPoly( 1 );
	  }

	} // end flat grid

	if ( (Model.showGrid & 2) || Model.showFlatHorizon ) {

	  // horizon on flat model
	  var aMax = Model.drawBackFGrid ? Math.PI * 2 : Math.PI;
	  g.SetPlane( [ 0, 0, -Model.Height ], [ 1, 0, 0 ], [ 0, 1, 0 ] );
	  g.SetAlpha( 1 );
	  g.SetLineAttr( 'red', 2 );
	  g.ArcOnPlane( 0, 0, Model.rDisk, 0, aMax, 1 );

	}

	if ( Model.showEquator ) {

	  // equator
	  var aMax = Model.drawBackFGrid ? Math.PI * 2 : Math.PI;
	  g.SetPlane( [ 0, 0, -Model.Height ], [ 1, 0, 0 ], [ 0, 1, 0 ] );
	  g.SetAlpha( 1 );
	  g.SetLineAttr( 'black', 1 );
	  g.ArcOnPlane( 0, 0, Model.rFEarth, 0, aMax, 1 );

	}

	// Globe Horizon
	var aMax = Model.drawBackGGrid ? Math.PI * 2 : Math.PI;
	g.SetAlpha( 1 );
	g.SetLineAttr( 'blue', 2 );
	g.SetPlane( [ 0, 0, -Model.zDisk ], [ 1, 0, 0 ], [ 0, 1, 0 ] );
	g.ArcOnPlane( 0, 0, Model.rDisk, 0, aMax, 1 );

  } // end model globe


  // Flat Earth

  if ( Model.showModel & 2 ) {

	var alpha = 0.6 - 0.5 * (Math.log10( Model.Height ) / 9);
	g.SetAlpha( alpha );
	g.SetLineAttr( 'black', 1 );

	// circle lines
	var aMax = Model.drawBackFE ? Math.PI * 2 : Math.PI;
	var crDelta = Model.rFEarth / 12;
	var crMax = 2 * Model.rFEarth - crDelta / 2;
	g.SetPlane( [ 0, 0, -Model.Height ], [ 1, 0, 0 ], [ 0, 1, 0 ] );
	for ( var cr = crDelta; cr < crMax; cr += crDelta ) {
	  g.ArcOnPlane( 0, 0, cr, 0, aMax, 1 );
	}
	if (Model.Height < 700000) {
	  crMax = crDelta;
	  crDelta /= 10;
	  crMax -= crDelta / 2;
	  for ( var cr = crDelta; cr < crMax; cr += crDelta ) {
		g.ArcOnPlane( 0, 0, cr, 0, aMax, 1 );
	  }
	}
	if (Model.Height < 30000) {
	  crMax = crDelta;
	  crDelta /= 10;
	  crMax -= crDelta / 2;
	  for ( var cr = crDelta; cr < crMax; cr += crDelta ) {
		g.ArcOnPlane( 0, 0, cr, 0, aMax, 1 );
	  }
	}
	if (Model.Height < 3000) {
	  crMax = crDelta;
	  crDelta /= 10;
	  crMax -= crDelta / 2;
	  for ( var cr = crDelta; cr < crMax; cr += crDelta ) {
		g.ArcOnPlane( 0, 0, cr, 0, aMax, 1 );
	  }
	}
	if (Model.Height < 300) {
	  crMax = crDelta;
	  crDelta /= 10;
	  crMax -= crDelta / 2;
	  for ( var cr = crDelta; cr < crMax; cr += crDelta ) {
		g.ArcOnPlane( 0, 0, cr, 0, aMax, 1 );
	  }
	}
	g.SetAlpha( 1 );
	g.ArcOnPlane( 0, 0, Model.rFEarth, 0, aMax, 1 );
	g.SetLineAttr( 'black', 2 );
	g.ArcOnPlane( 0, 0, 2*Model.rFEarth, 0, aMax, 1 );

	// ray lines
	g.SetAlpha( alpha );
	g.SetLineAttr( 'black', 1 );
	var caDelta = Math.PI / 12;
	var caMax = Model.drawBackFE ? 2 * Math.PI : Math.PI;
	caMax -= caDelta / 2;
	var r = 2 * Model.rFEarth;
	for ( var ca = 0; ca < caMax; ca += caDelta ) {
	  var c = Math.cos( ca );
	  var s = Math.sin( ca );
	  g.LineOnPlane( r * c, r * s, 0, 0 );
	}

  } // end nLines > 0

  if ( Model.showEyeLevel ) {
	g.SetLineAttr( 'magenta', 1 );
	g.SetAlpha( 1 );
	g.Line3D( [ -Model.sceneWidth/2, Model.rDisk, 0 ], [ Model.sceneWidth/2, Model.rDisk, 0 ] );
	g.SetTextAttr( 'Arial', 12, 'magenta', 'normal', 'normal', 'venter', 'bottom', 6 );
	g.SetTextRotation( -Model.Roll*Math.PI/180 );
	g.Text3D( 'Eye-Level', [ 0, Model.rDisk, 0 ] );
  }
}

function PointOnEarth( lat, long ) {
  var x = Model.rEarth * Math.sin( long );
  var rr = Model.rEarth * Math.cos( long );
  var y = rr * Math.sin( lat );
  var z = rr * Math.cos( lat );
  return [ x, y, z - (Model.rEarth + Model.Height) ];
}

function PointOnPlane( lat, long ) {
  var x = Model.rEarth * Math.sin( long );
  var rr = Model.rEarth * Math.cos( long );
  var y = rr * Math.sin( lat );
  return [ x, y, -Model.Height ];
}


ControlPanels.NewSliderPanel( {
  ModelRef: 'Model',
  OnModelChange: UpdateAll,
  Format: 'std',
  Digits: 3,
  ReadOnly: false,
  PanelFormat: 'InputMediumWidth'

} ).AddValueSliderField( {
  Name: 'Height',
  ValueRef: 'Height',
  SliderValueRef: 'HeightSlider',
  Mult: 1000,
  Units: 'km',
  Color: 'blue',
  Min: 0,
  Max: 1

} ).AddValueSliderField( {
  Name: 'ViewAngle',
  Label: 'View&ang;',
  ValueRef: 'ViewAngleField',
  SliderValueRef: 'ViewAngleSlider',
  Units: '&deg;',
  Color: 'black',
  Min: 5,
  Max: 90

} ).AddValueSliderField( {
  Name: 'FocalLength',
  ValueRef: 'FocalLengthField',
  SliderValueRef: 'FocalLengthSlider',
  Label: 'f',
  Units: 'mm',
  Color: 'black',
  Min: 21,
  Max: 500

} ).Render();


ControlPanels.NewSliderPanel( {
  ModelRef: 'Model',
  OnModelChange: UpdateAll,
  NCols: 2,
  Format: 'fix0',
  Digits: 0,
  ReadOnly: true,
  PanelFormat: 'InputMediumWidth'

} ).AddValueSliderField( {
  Name: 'Nick',
  Format: 'std',
  Digits: 3,
  Units: '&deg;',
  Color: 'green',
  Min: -45,
  Max: 30

} ).AddValueSliderField( {
  Name: 'Roll',
  Format: 'std',
  Digits: 3,
  Units: '&deg;',
  Color: 'green',
  Min: -45,
  Max: 45

} ).Render();


ControlPanels.NewPanel( {
  Name: 'Options',
  ModelRef: 'Model',
  NCols: 2,
  OnModelChange: UpdateAll

} ).AddRadiobuttonField( {
  Name: 'showModel',
  Label: 'Model',
  ValueType: 'int',
  Items: [
	{
	  Name: 'Globe',
	  Value: 1
	}, {
	  Name: 'Globe+Flat',
	  Value: 3
	}, {
	  Name: 'Flat',
	  Value: 2
	}
  ]

} ).AddRadiobuttonField( {
  Name: 'HeightRange',
  ValueType: 'int',
  Items: [
	{
	  Name: '50',
	  Text: '50',
	  Value: 50000
	}, {
	  Name: '500',
	  Text: '500',
	  Value: 500000
	}, {
	  Name: '20000',
	  Text: '20&thinsp;000',
	  Value: 20000000
	}, {
	  Name: 'Log',
	  Value: 0
	}
  ]

} ).AddRadiobuttonField( {
  Name: 'showGrid',
  Label: 'Grid',
  ValueType: 'int',
  Items: [
	{
	  Name: 'None',
	  Value: 0
	}, {
	  Name: 'Globe',
	  Value: 1
	}, {
	  Name: 'Globe+Flat',
	  Value: 3
	}
  ]

} ).AddRadiobuttonField( {
  Name: 'nLines',
  Label: 'Lines',
  ValueType: 'int',
  Items: [
	{
	  Name: '15',
	  Value: 15
	}, {
	  Name: '30',
	  Value: 30
	}, {
	  Name: '45',
	  Value: 45
	}, {
	  Name: '60',
	  Value: 60
	}, {
	  Name: '90',
	  Value: 90
	}
  ]

} ).AddCheckboxField( {
  Name: 'Show',
  Label: 'Show',
  Items: [
	{
	  Name: 'showEyeLevel',
	  Text: 'EyeLevel',
	}, {
	  Name: 'showFlatHorizon',
	  Text: 'FE-Horizon',
	}, {
	  Name: 'showEquator',
	  Text: 'FE-Equator',
	}
  ]

} ).AddRadiobuttonField( {
  Name: 'deviceRatio',
  Label: 'AspectRatio',
  ValueType: 'num',
  Items: [
	{
	  Name: '3:2',
	  Value: 3/2
	}, {
	  Name: '2:3',
	  Value: 2/3
	}, {
	  Name: '16:9',
	  Value: 16/9
	}, {
	  Name: '9:16',
	  Value: 9/16
	}
  ]

} ).Render();


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JTolan

Closed Account
Banned
I've taken a lot of pictures of the islands and oil rigs visible from Santa Barbara, CA during the past year, in both visible and infrared light. Most of the time I see farther then the calculated horizon should allow, but that does not necessarily mean the earth is "flat" because other phenomena might be at work.

It is no mystery atmospheric light refraction (i.e., light bending in the air) plays a big part, however, I have discovered that near the surface of water, light actually bends upward making objects seem to disappear sooner then they should, usually on a clear day (dry air and high moisture gradient near the surface) Other times the bending can be downward, making distant targets visible (atmosphere has a general negative gradient, i.e. air get thinner with altitude) Because of the complex light bending phenomena close to the water air boundary, and the constantly changing conditions, it is not easy to pin down with high confidence exactly what phenomena is at work at a particular time of the day. When the mirage is seen, it is clear that light bending is upward at the boundary, but when it is not, the question is can we assume light now travels straight? There are also coastal effects like tides, maybe water tension, and/or gravitational variations, etc.., making a definitive answer a bit elusive.

Anyway, here's some of my pictures, enjoy.

1) my first picture after I learned of the "flat earth" and headed out to the beach to check for myself. (Behind the oil rig those are the Santa Monica Mountains, by Point Mugu, photo was taken from Santa Barbara pier)
point mugu.jpg
2) Santa Cruz island viewed from the Santa Barbara beach. I used the visible valley (blue lines) as a known height reference (its about 80 ft based on topological maps), showing that indeed we see to the water level, (the bottom of the valley is about 600 ft in elevation) Usually when it's hazy outside the water vapor is more evenly distributed and index of refraction more uniform, thus less bending occurs making long distance views possible.
santa cruz island.png

3) Boat should not be visible, weather was beautiful, no wind.
sandpoint.png

4) note time difference of about 5 hrs. If you don't like the curvature, just wait a while :)

SB_OilRigs_Contrast.png

5) this is taken with a IR720 filter, I've been experimenting to see if I can see through the mist. The best is really SWIR, but those are not sold to the public (ITAR restricted)
malibu.png
 
Last edited:

Philippe

New Member
I've taken a lot of pictures of the islands and oil rigs visible from Santa Barbara, CA during the past year, in both visible and infrared light. Most of the time I see farther then the calculated horizon should allow, but that does not necessarily mean the earth is "flat" because other phenomena might be at work.
You keep showing evidence of a flat plane you will be removed. Hahahah! They don't like observable evidence that contradicts their ball model. Good luck.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
You keep showing evidence of a flat plane you will be removed. Hahahah! They don't like observable evidence that contradicts their ball model. Good luck.
You were going to provide a photo of Catalina. Where is it?
 

Philippe

New Member
I've taken a lot of pictures of the islands and oil rigs visible from Santa Barbara, CA during the past year, in both visible and infrared light. Most of the time I see farther then the calculated horizon should allow, but that does not necessarily mean the earth is "flat" because other phenomena might be at work.

It is no mystery atmospheric light refraction (i.e., light bending in the air) plays a big part, however, I have discovered that near the surface of water, light actually bends upward making objects seem to disappear sooner then they should, usually on a clear day (dry air and high moisture gradient near the surface) Other times the bending can be downward, making distant targets visible (atmosphere has a general negative gradient, i.e. air get thinner with altitude) Because of the complex light bending phenomena close to the water air boundary, and the constantly changing conditions, it is not easy to pin down with high confidence exactly what phenomena is at work at a particular time of the day. When the mirage is seen, it is clear that light bending is upward at the boundary, but when it is not, the question is can we assume light now travels straight? There are also coastal effects like tides, maybe water tension, and/or gravitational variations, etc.., making a definitive answer a bit elusive.

Anyway, here's some of my pictures, enjoy.

1) my first picture after I learned of the "flat earth" and headed out to the beach to check for myself. (Behind the oil rig those are the Santa Monica Mountains, by Point Mugu, photo was taken from Santa Barbara pier)
View attachment 27114
2) Santa Cruz island viewed from the Santa Barbara beach. I used the visible valley (blue lines) as a known height reference (its about 80 ft based on topological maps), showing that indeed we see to the water level, (the bottom of the valley is about 600 ft in elevation) Usually when it's hazy outside the water vapor is more evenly distributed and index of refraction more uniform, thus less bending occurs making long distance views possible.
View attachment 27115

3) Boat should not be visible, weather was beautiful, no wind.
View attachment 27116

4) note time difference of about 5 hrs. If you don't like the curvature, just wait a while :)

View attachment 27117

5) this is taken with a IR720 filter, I've been experimenting to see if I can see through the mist. The best is really SWIR, but those are not sold to the public (ITAR restricted)
View attachment 27118
I have been removed just posting this.

After months of research I have no doubt there is no curvature anywhere to be seen. If the curvature is measurable it should be observable as targets disappearing over the horizon could NOT stay perpendicular on the surface of a ball. This links proves without a shadow of a doubt that no matter how many 100 miles of flat horizon there is you cannot create a curve.
https://beyondhorizons.eu/tag/photography/
 

Trailblazer

Moderator
Staff member
After months of research I have no doubt there is no curvature anywhere to be seen. If the curvature is measurable it should be observable as targets disappearing over the horizon could NOT stay perpendicular on the surface of a ball. This links proves without a shadow of a doubt that no matter how many 100 miles of flat horizon there is you cannot create a curve.
https://beyondhorizons.eu/tag/photography/
I suggest that you actually read the site before linking to it. That site has an extensive discussion of the Earth's curvature and what it means for intervisibility of mountains:

https://beyondhorizons.eu/visibility-facts/geometrics/

 

Trailblazer

Moderator
Staff member
You were going to provide a photo of Catalina. Where is it?
Actually @Philippe claimed that he could see Santa Barbara island from the same spot: specifically, he said. from the beach below the cliffs. That's the photo I'd really like to see.

could you please explain how I was able to see Santa Barbara Island 43 miles away to the naked eyes from Trump National Golf Club (Palos Verdes, Los Angeles) at sea level when there is a declination of over 1200 feet but the tallest summit Signal Hill on Santa Barbara is only 634 feet high?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Actually @Philippe claimed that he could see Santa Barbara island from the same spot: specifically, he said. from the beach below the cliffs. That's the photo I'd really like to see.
Ah yes:
could you please explain how I was able to see Santa Barbara Island 43 miles away to the naked eyes from Trump National Golf Club (Palos Verdes, Los Angeles) at sea level when there is a declination of over 1200 feet but the tallest summit Signal Hill on Santa Barbara is only 634 feet high?
I specifically said SEA LEVEL because that's where i was at the bottom of the hill on the rocky beach where there is a public trail. I have taken a photo with my Nikon P900, I would be happy to show it to you.
The photos linked above are clearly of Catalina Island, showing Two Harbors just peeking though the horizon refraction.


They are also clearly from the clifftop, and not the beach. So the view is as expected. (Probable, as sometimes refraction can create a join there)

20170605-094910-xztb4.jpg

20170605-094945-og9gn.jpg

Sea level would have more obscured, giving a (probable) gap where Two Harbors is.
20170605-095019-dlnvh.jpg
 

Trailblazer

Moderator
Staff member
The cliff edge has a height of 164ft at its lowest, so the camera height would be approx 170ft at least. The distance to Two Harbors is 21.6 miles, giving an obscured height of only about 11 feet.

From sea level (camera height 6ft) the obscured height should be far bigger: about 193 feet.

Can you show us a photo of either island from the beach, @Philippe?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
This photo:
20170605-095909-kvrgd.jpg

Might be from here:
20170605-100126-09z29.jpg
Which is 57 feet (eye level being 62-63 feet)

The un-refracted view from there is similar.
20170605-100337-sh90r.jpg

Edit: Scratch that. I though those were bushes blocking the path, but the path continues down to sea level.


I await @Philippe's clarification of the photo spot, and some photos from the beach (of Catalina would be fine)
 
Last edited:

Abishua

Member
I have been removed just posting this.

After months of research I have no doubt there is no curvature anywhere to be seen. If the curvature is measurable it should be observable as targets disappearing over the horizon could NOT stay perpendicular on the surface of a ball. This links proves without a shadow of a doubt that no matter how many 100 miles of flat horizon there is you cannot create a curve.
https://beyondhorizons.eu/tag/photography/
wow! Even with Micks calc this comes out as 5km hidden! And the mountain is 4km high only and it's not only tops what we see there! There seems to be at least a few km's of missing curvature there
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
wow! Even with Micks calc this comes out as 5km hidden! And the mountain is 4km high only and it's not only tops what we see there! There seems to be at least a few km's of missing curvature there
What exactly are you referring to there? Please show the actual numbers.
 

Trailblazer

Moderator
Staff member
wow! Even with Micks calc this comes out as 5km hidden! And the mountain is 4km high only and it's not only tops what we see there! There seems to be at least a few km's of missing curvature there
The photo being referred to shows Barre des Ecrins (4102m tall) photographed from Pic de Finestrelles (2820m tall) at a distance of 440km.

With standard refraction that means 3721m should be hidden, leaving 281 metres visible.

The whole website is about finding the longest lines of sight possible on a globe Earth and trying to take photos of them. If the Earth was flat then much longer lines of sight ought to be possible.
 

Eugene kwak

New Member
Have you done any ground level test yourself? I'm a flat earther and I have done tests myself. Ground level test. Anything that is televised or photographed to me is discredited. Real life tests and observation is the only way to prove yourself. I am convinced because I seen my friend's whole boat 20 miles away from shore with a telescope on a 3 ft tripod. Even though I shared the pic with a few, everyone claimed it was fake. So I decided to stop using pictures or videos to be evidence and tell people to do their own tests an observation instead of relying other sources. All you need is a small boat with a high tech camera or telescope. Trust me, you will still see the boat from miles away that the calculations of a round earth don't match up to what you see.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Have you done any ground level test yourself? I'm a flat earther and I have done tests myself. Ground level test. Anything that is televised or photographed to me is discredited. Real life tests and observation is the only way to prove yourself. I am convinced because I seen my friend's whole boat 20 miles away from shore with a telescope on a 3 ft tripod. Even though I shared the pic with a few, everyone claimed it was fake. So I decided to stop using pictures or videos to be evidence and tell people to do their own tests an observation instead of relying other sources. All you need is a small boat with a high tech camera or telescope. Trust me, you will still see the boat from miles away that the calculations of a round earth don't match up to what you see.
I moved this post from another thread where it was off-topic.

The answer, of course, is yes. I've done ground level tests, some of which are described in this thread, and they demonstrate the curve of the earth.

Viewing a 20-mile away boat from 3ft above the water is essentially impossible. You can get refraction to bend light that far, but there would be significant and obvious distortion. This type of experiment is best done with large objects like mountains.

Please post your photo and location details, and we can explain what you are likely seeing.
 

Philippe

New Member
I moved this post from another thread where it was off-topic.

The answer, of course, is yes. I've done ground level tests, some of which are described in this thread, and they demonstrate the curve of the earth.

Viewing a 20-mile away boat from 3ft above the water is essentially impossible. You can get refraction to bend light that far, but there would be significant and obvious distortion. This type of experiment is best done with large objects like mountains.

Please post your photo and location details, and we can explain what you are likely seeing.
 

Attachments

Rory

Senior Member
The photo we're talking about is the one you said you had of Santa Barbara Island from just above sea level.
I specifically said SEA LEVEL because that's where i was at the bottom of the hill on the rocky beach where there is a public trail. I have taken a photo with my Nikon P900, I would be happy to show it to you.
That looks like a lovely place to play football, by the way. :)
 
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Philippe

New Member
No curvature in the soccer field and yet the goal posts disappears just like your ridiculous sail boat example. Anyone with a brain can take pictures of things disappearing over the horizon, it doesn’t mean the surface curves. I am not sure where you guys get that logic. You must have fisheyes or something! I have saved some of your photos and presented to professional photographers and they are laughing at the idea that someone with your reputation is promoting such nonsense. Truly a disgrace to photography.
 

Bruno D.

Senior Member
No curvature in the soccer field and yet the goal posts disappears just like your ridiculous sail boat example. Anyone with a brain can take pictures of things disappearing over the horizon, it doesn’t mean the surface curves. I am not sure where you guys get that logic. You must have fisheyes or something! I have saved some of your photos and presented to professional photographers and they are laughing at the idea that someone with your reputation is promoting such nonsense. Truly a disgrace to photography.
Please share the names of those professional photographers or ask them to come to this forum for an open discussion :)
 

Philippe

New Member
Please share the names of those professional photographers or ask them to come to this forum for an open discussion :)
Never said anything about Catalina Island, it was actually Santa Barbara Isalnd, Big difference since it’s 43 miles away and for the past two weeks I have observe it every day while walking my dogs down below at the beach of Trump Golf Club.
 

deirdre

Senior Member
No curvature in the soccer field
where is this soccer field? exactly?

The thread is "stand up to detect the curvature", so you would have to stand up in those photos. Please try to stay on topic. and watch yourself in regards to the Politeness Policy.
 

Trailspotter

Senior Member
No curvature in the soccer field and yet the goal posts disappears
A propper soccer field is not flat but is slightly raised in the middle and gently slopes to the sides and the ends for drainage. This middle bump would be sufficient to hide the bottom of the goal posts, if they are observed from the ground.
 

Rory

Senior Member
Never said anything about Catalina Island, it was actually Santa Barbara Island.
Though you did link to and post photos of Catalina Island, that's right, it's the one of Santa Barbara Island that we're waiting to see. It's been eight months since you wrote "I'd be happy to show it to you" - but while you've shown several other photographs, we still haven't seen this one.
The thread is "stand up to detect the curvature", so you would have to stand up in those photos [of the soccer field].
That's a great suggestion. If he does that and can't see more of the lower portion of the distant goals, then he can show whether the field is flat or not.
 
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