I am gong to try and sum up where we are in this debate, and I am going to use Micks input to do so, because he has stuck to the thread topic quite well.
#1 topic introduced as "Critical Errors and Omissions in WTC7 Report Uncovered"
#10 mick asked - Is there any evidence of shear studs in the debris photos?
That was established. The relevant beams did have, but the girder is in question. I accept that.
The shear stud issue however is not relevant to the analysis because it is totally unrestrained expansion that we used. ie no shear studs anywhere.
#83 Mick accepts that the underseat plate 'pf' is in fact 12". Something that NIST got wrong then released an erratum statement to confirm this error. They did not address the consequences of their new 'walk off' distance though which is impossible ny their own standards. Later in the debate, the whole walk off issue is downplayed though as irrelevant, this is because it does not suit the debunking side to admit that the walkoff distance is impossible. If it was irrelevant NIST would not have made it a central issue in their collapse initiation hypothesis.
There follows much talk about how the shear studs would possibly inhibit the walk off. It is clearly established that the walk off distance proposed by NIST is impossible when Mick is given the figures in#165 and concurs that the MAXIMUM expansion that the beams could experience is in fact 4.67". Less than any figure that NIST proposes.
This is the reason that the 'walk off' is later alleged to be irrelevant to the initiation of collapse - because the figures are a slam dunk that cannot be disputed and are admitted early in the thread.
This attitude that 'if it doesn't suit the debunking side, it is not relevant' will become a common theme.
#111 Mick is presented with the correct dimensions and elements for the connection as per the drawings but still does not understand the relevance of the stiffener plates on the girder, and continues to focus in on shear studs, which are not relevant as the expansion used is unrestrained. He calles my case 'very weak'
#135 Mick attempts to tell me what I think about the towers. A topic that I have not even mentioned once in the thread. He wrongly asserts that verinage can bring down a steel building, which rings alarm bells with me right away on an engineering level.In the next post he asks for a copy of our spreadsheet, but he should really do his own math rather than trusting our sheet, so he is given the figures to use in order to do his
own calculation.
In post #160 Mick asks for my answer to the equation of expansion, which I give him, aswell as providing him with more figures than he needs to do the math himself in #165.
#172 Mick has obviously checked tha math for expansion, and instead of referring to where NIST clearly state that the walk off distance is 6.25" rather than 5.5" in HIS OWN EARLIER POST of the erratum statement, he instead asks "Is there somewhere in the NIST report that actually claims a longer expansion?" Ridiculous, and nothing
to do with getting to the truth of this matter via science. This is an avoidance tactic clearly. He then reverts to computer simulation figures by NIST which by his own admission are invalid due to the element dimensions used being wrong, and the absence of the all important stiffener plates. Despite posting the erratum statement from NIST himself he asks "So where is the long expansion needed?" ridiculous really.
#176 Despite the said erratum post from Mick he says in #176 "640.69*.00000701*1040 = 4.67, but like I said, NIST never claims a longer expansion." They clearly do an Mick knows this by way of his own post. He continues to try and avoid the issue by posting tables that refer to NISTs model, which did not have the correct elements
in it.(4.67" is the maximum expansion in the longest beam as stated in the video - Mick is unable to dispute it)
He continues his avoidance by continually referring to MODEL outputs from NIST but doesn't realise for example that table 8-2 refers to the model and not the building itself as per NIST until #179, after he is shown the absurdities of relating hypothetical simulation data to the final report analysis. Important to note though that
he will later try to use this hypothetical data to argue against NISTs own words because it is all he has left as an option. He states re the simulation data Remember this was just a limited simulation, not the full scale simulation". An inconvenient fact that will be forgotten later on in the thread. He quickly realises that he has shot himself in the foot though and has to retract the walk off distance claim that he made when he notices
that the model explanation clearly states "Thus, when the girder end at Column 79 had been pushed laterally at least 5.5 in., it was no longer supported by the bearing seat" This is crucial, and another inconvenient fact that he will later ignore in the thread as you will see.
He does realise that the models are not consistent with each other though, this is because he does not yet realise them to be hypothetical, he states in #180 "Which seems inconsistent with the LSDYNA simulation results. I suspect that the difference is accounted for by column movement." Of course, he fails to realise that the column cannot possibly move without the girder having been unseated as it is the alleged first girder failure. He puts the cause after the effect, which is backward science, and a very basic error.
#182 Mick then tries to avoid the hard engineering realities that scientifically should have, and maybe by this time have led him to the truth, by introducing a 'thought experiment'. No thank you Mick, this is about reality, not hypothetical nonsense.
#183 Mick tries to get to the 6.5" walk off distance via his 'thought experiment' by increasing the walk off distance by a factor of 40%. He has abandoned column 79 to do this and it is nothing more than dry labbing on his part.
An affront to true scientific research in the search of truth.
At this point the debate is basically over. Mick has abandoned science and has in fact debunked himself. He will continue throughout to try and use hypothetical model simulations to justify his mistaken position whilst conveniently forgetting that he himself stated that these descriptions state clearly a walk off distance of 5.5", even though
when he later uses these hypotheticals to justify his position, he is arguing that the walk off distance is not relevant any more, when the models he is using to argue this were meant by NIST to justify said walk off distance.
I am happy to go into further detail of how this thread has transpired, and if Mick would like to, we can now get down to the hard engineering and maths involved. I would love to do this, but it has to be done in a truthful and scientific way. And to do so would mean that there has to be an acceptance of where we are at in this debate up
until now. If Mick and this site is truly about science and truth, the way forward to facilitate a more detailed debate on this issue is obvious. Accept the truth and let's move on to the real detail of the issue.
Up to this point, I would consider that we have skimmed the surface of the issue in terms of the engineering and maths involved.
This may seem a bit harsh of me toward Mick, but I trult admire him for having put up a half decent attempt at defending that which is indefensible. I could not have debated on the opposite side of this either, and I comment him for even being willing to do so. However, he has been so thoroughly debunked at this point that to continue without some kind of admission of this would be pointless.
I expect a load of long posts after this one from various participants in this thread in an attempt to bury this one. I am very openly and clearly calling on Mick now to address ALL of the above in detail and not selectively.
As he has said, it has been a steep learning curve for him to have come up against a thread that actually deals with engineering and science without clouding the issue with meaningless rhetoric.
Let's see who really is 'all about truth and science' here, and who is not.