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  1. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

  2. TWCobra

    TWCobra Senior Member

    The photo of the A330 that Max claims has no oil drain pipes is a Hawaiian Airlines aircraft, still in the French pre delivery registration of F-WWKZ the Airbus factory at Toulouse.

    It is powered by the Rolls Royce Trent engine, and this photo taken before engine installation, clearly shows a drain pipe on the engine pylon.

    The drain for the Trent is less prominent than other engine manufacturers, hence more difficult to spot in long range photo shots.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/bycac/10039439556/
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 18, 2014
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  3. TWCobra

    TWCobra Senior Member

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  4. George B

    George B Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member

    TWCobra, for us non-aviation types . . . could you describe what the drains look like on the photo?
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2014
  5. WeedWhacker

    WeedWhacker Senior Member

  6. MikeC

    MikeC Closed Account

    If you look at the exhaust from the engine - the cowling immediately above it extends back in a straight line, and right at the very end of it there is a very small pipe at the bottom corner - it is quite small even in the full size photo the yellow square below highlights it.

    trent.

    The orange squares are the "petal" thrust reversers just FYI.
     
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  7. WeedWhacker

    WeedWhacker Senior Member

    If "TWCobra" is absent, or on his "rest period", I can help!!

    The big photo shows the engine mounted on the pylon. ON the pylon, just aft of the exhaust or aft end of the engine itself, is a "teeny tiny, little itty bitty" tube, facing aft.

    Sorry, but the "teeny tiny, little itty bitty" meme came from the late, great Gilda Radner. From her character that she created, "Roseanne Roseannadanna". Worth a visit, online, to see true genius comedy.

    EDIT: I see that "MikeC" beat me to it!!

    EDIT ('Phase 2')....just one example (AND< way off-topic, so apologies):

     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2014
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  8. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Moderator Staff Member

    (I kinda fell in love with her on a dvd of the muppet show I watched recently, was sad to hear she had died)
     
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  9. WeedWhacker

    WeedWhacker Senior Member

    She was married to another great comic...of Young Frankenstein fame, among other accolades....Gene Wilder.

    Again....apologies, this is SO off-topic.
     
  10. TWCobra

    TWCobra Senior Member

    Wot Mike C sed....

    I think the problem for Max is one of scale. The drains would be roughly the same size as the ones on the 737 that Max usually looks at, but the pylon/engine/fuselage of the A330 are more than twice the size of the equivalents on the 737, making them difficult to spot.
     
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  11. Balance

    Balance Senior Member

    The drain pipes could be the size of 747 itself and some will still deny what they are, ime.
     
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  12. WeedWhacker

    WeedWhacker Senior Member

    I can see already that "Max Bliss" DELETED my post, on the video above...and here:



    "Max Bliss" is just another in a slew of liars, much like "TankerEnemy", who also uses YouTube to spread his "woo".

    FOR "Max Bliss": The full content of my original post, which YOU deleted:

    MY "quote", below...posted on the video above, but THEN (apparently) DELETED by the video uploader, "Max Bliss":

    You are so poorly informed, it's truly sad!!

    You show videos of perfectly normal contrails, and cirrus clouds. ALL contrails are merely a form of cirrus cloud, by the way!

    Really....how ignorant does one need to be to not understand the science of contrails??

    Here, try some maths:

    Tell us, do, how to find that much "material" to "spray"?? Try this, it's simple math: A jet flying across the sky, for twenty miles in your field of view (very easy for this to be true....hell, even longer distance, but harder to see without binocs). If it helps, airliners cruise at about450 to 480knots, so that is7.5 to 8miles per minute. SO, watch a jet for3 to 2 1/2minutes, and it will travel about 20 (Nautical) miles!!

    OK...twenty miles. A twin-jet (let's say), with a CONtrail (which is frozen water ice, in tiny crystals) coming from each engine. How big in diameter, would you say, the CONtrail is?? Well, if the engine itself is about ten feet or so, let's just let the CONtrail be ten feet diameter. (I am WAY low-balling it, here BTW!)

    NOW, the fun math. A Ten-Foot wide cylinder that is Twenty Miles long has how much volume?? I'll tell you....volume of a cylinder calculation is (Pi) times (Radius squared), times (Height). Our "cylinder" is Twenty miles "high", as it's laying on its side...right? Plug in the numbers:

    Pi =3.1416
    R = 1/2 of Ten is 5 (ft) Squared is25.
    H =121,520(ft) (This is 20 Nautical miles, times 6,076 feet....right??)

    Answer??: *9,544,181 CUBIC FEET* of volume! Over9 Millioncubic feet. Right? Here's a website that does the math, if you wanna check it:http://www.mathopenref.com/cylindervolume.html

    >>EDIT…and here I didn’t even DOUBLE IT, to make it one for each engine!!! SO, it’s even more of a low-ball estimate!!<<

    9 Millioncubic feet of volume, in just ONE 20-mile CONtrail that is ten feetin diameter. So, even IF the "material" was spread out, just how much would you need to make it visible? AND to make it appear "white", to look EXACTLY THE SAME as every other normal CIRRUS cloud?? At what concentration?? And, how do you "spray" it...using some sort of liquid??

    So, tell us what kind of airplane can carry that much volume of "material" PLUSsome liquid medium to use for "spraying" it??

    Might interest you to know that ONE CUBIC FOOT of water weighs about 62 pounds!

    Another way to envision 9 million cubic feet is a 20-story tall building, with about 200 feet of frontage at its base, on all sides. BECAUSE,9 millioncubic feet is equivalent to a CUBE with sides measuring 208 feet each!!!

    So, "Max", DO check the math, and use some flippin' common sense and critical thinking!! ALSO...you may want to learn about aviation. I have 40+ years' experience as a pilot, the last 24 years were with a major U.S. airline. You need to understand what "weight & balance" means, to an airplane. AND the sorts of limitations involved.

    ALSO....these so-called "chemicals" that you claim are "sprayed"?? *WHERE* are these alleged "chemicals" manufactured?? Show the PROOF!! Get photos!!

    AND, once you find those "locations", THEN how are these alleged "chemicals" transported to the airports?? GET PHOTOS!! ON the ground!!!

    THEN, get some damn actual PHOTOS of these alleged "chemicals" being LOADED onto airplanes...ON THE GROUND!!

    EVIDENCE! FFS, everyone and their child has a friggin' cellphone with a camera,, nowadays!!! GET SOME PHOTOS as "evidence"....Good luck....(you will need it).
     
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  13. WeedWhacker

    WeedWhacker Senior Member

    The FACT that "Max Bliss" deleted my reply/comment on this YouTube video?? As I said, speaks volumes as to his (lack of) credibility.
     
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  14. TWCobra

    TWCobra Senior Member

    The meme at the moment is that these pipes are retrofitted for spray operations. Hence the glee at supposedly finding an aircraft without them.

    They just didn't look closely enough.

    These drains are in all engines on modern airliners.
     
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  15. PandyFackler

    PandyFackler New Member

    It seems like you were coming on a little heavy. A lot of exclamation points and little jabs... probably felt like you were yelling at him. Even if your numbers check out, I don't think people are very receptive to that sort of tone.
     
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  16. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Moderator Staff Member

    True, but that type of emphasis is normal for those pro-chemtrails. It's not as if they speak calmly. One might think they have to use exclamation points just to be on the same level.
    But yeah, be waaay calmer, any emotional intensity is seen as a psy-op technique or persecution.
     
  17. Balance

    Balance Senior Member

    Agreed, particularly at a point Max was being openly honest about his deepest fears, asking anybody and everybody for a little help... and if you browse his facebook page, has recently immersed himself in a lot of moody muzak.

    (sorry if this was too personal, I just had a long but enjoyable debate with a chemtrail believer and feel more empathetic as I was listened to for much longer than average and we ended mutually respectful).
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2014
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  18. mrfintoil

    mrfintoil Active Member

    The easiest way to copy comments is to use the Snipping tool (if you are on Windows). It's very simple.
    http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/use-snipping-tool-capture-screen-shots#1TC=windows-7

    I have even set up a Windows hotkey to start the tool, just like you use CMD + Shift + 4 in Mac OSx to make an image of a section of the screen.
    In Windows I just use ALT + Shift + 4 instead and get the exact same function, which is very handy.

    For comments larger than one screen I use the Webpage Screenshot addon in Chrome.
    http://www.webpagescreenshot.info/
     
  19. Hama Neggs

    Hama Neggs Senior Member

    This is a problem in debunking memes which are soo blatantly false. If you come on (as seems appropriate) with strong rebuttal and dismissive tone, they take it as an "attack". They expect you to argue from THEIR point of view as if there is tons of valid evidence supporting their position, because THEY believe that. If you dismiss them with a bit of disdain, which is hard to avoid, they can't handle it.
     
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  20. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    It's not too hard to avoid distain with a bit of practice. And it's way more effective.
     
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  21. TEEJ

    TEEJ Senior Member

    Max wanting to get closer with his photography.

    upload_2014-2-20_17-21-4.

    upload_2014-2-20_17-25-4.

    Metabunk and Mick get a mention! Max still puzzled by natural cloud formations!

    upload_2014-2-20_17-27-13.
     
  22. TEEJ

    TEEJ Senior Member

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  23. Balance

    Balance Senior Member

    (Assuming I'm understanding correctly) Is this really Max's "understanding"; that Jay/Mick et al make this claim?
     
  24. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    I'm not entirely sure what he means. Sound like that he's saying because we have a good understanding of how contrails form, we could use that knowledge to make "chemtrails"?
     
  25. Balance

    Balance Senior Member

    I'm probably misunderstanding it too, but I read "if the scientists were able to produce nuclear tech from theory, why is Jay/Mick etc denying it might be possible to make chemtrail tech from cloud physics?"
     
  26. mrfintoil

    mrfintoil Active Member

    Don't want to be patronizing, but expecting Max Bliss to talk sense?
     
  27. JRBids

    JRBids Senior Member

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  28. George B

    George B Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member

    Hmmmm . . . Mick might want an updated photo to improve his public image . . . maybe some Botox or such . . . :cool:
     
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  29. Ross Marsden

    Ross Marsden Senior Member

    I think he means, "if magic there, why not magic here?".
     
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  30. mrfintoil

    mrfintoil Active Member

    Those who are most prejudice are those who are least familiar with their target.

    Sounds stupefyingly logical does it not? ;)
    Point is, in my experience those who trash talk Mick the most are those who actually never read any of his discussions, least have tried to have an actual conversation with him.

    It's like with people who accuse Freemasons for everything bad in this world. Most such people have never met an actual Freemason. They have just heard from others what a Freemason is supposed to be.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2014
  31. Strawman

    Strawman Active Member

    Asking them one question is enough: Where exactly did Mick supposedly instigate trolling?
     
  32. Hama Neggs

    Hama Neggs Senior Member

    "Everywhere". Just like when you ask them what is wrong on contrailscience. The answer is: "Everything".
     
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  33. JRBids

    JRBids Senior Member

    From here. He sends us out like the Wicked Witch of the West's flying monkeys.
     
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  34. Soulfly

    Soulfly Banned Banned

    I want my check Mick!
    Ooooh Weeee Ooooh, Weeee Ooooh Ooooh
     
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  35. WeedWhacker

    WeedWhacker Senior Member

    I'd like to draw Max Bliss' (or one of his "followers") attention to my post just above the one I "quoted" here, from several days ago. The long treatise on math and geometry (that some seemed to think was "too harsh"). A quote by Thomas Jefferson: "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions."

    Whether the criticisms of my "style" are valid is moot: I just found on YouTube a video from three years ago, and is a splendid one indeed!



    To summarize the gist of the above video, it is presented by a current (or then current) airline pilot. He was cruising Westbound in the USA, on a route parallel with another airliner (an Embraer Regional Jet operated by "American Eagle", a subsidiary of AMR, the parent corporation of American Airlines) that was cruising Eastbound at 27,000 feet (FL270). The video maker "browncoat3000" was at a higher FL (he doesn't say specifically, but to my practiced eyes, at least a few thousand feet higher).

    His math in this example was for a contrail that was at least 400 NM (nautical miles) in length. His method assumes that all of the maximum Payload capacity of the Embraer ERJ=135 (~4,200 kg) is used JUST for "chemicals" to "spray". That ~4,200 kg divided by the 400 NM = 10.5 kg/NM of constant "dispersal" of some "material".

    The 400 NM-long contrail is estimated for his math at 50 feet diameter. (Here, he actually simplifies the math, by "squaring" the cylinder, and arrives at a value of 15,190.000 cubic feet per mile). If I wanted to be pedantic, and do it as a cylindrical shape? Then it is slightly less --- 11,930,198 cubic feet....per NM.

    Moving on...using the 10.5 kg/NM figure, and dividing it into the volume, we get (using the "square" column figure) we get an actual concentration of this imaginary "material" of 0.00000069 kg/cubic foot. Or, 0.69 milligrams/cubic foot.

    (With my columnar shape, it is 0.00000088 kg/cu ft, or 0.88 milligrams/cubic foot). Still, an incredibly small number!

    His example, which is genius, compares it to a part of a tablet of aspirin...just 1/100th of a tablet of aspirin, dissolved into 7.5 gallons of water.

    Of course too, he goes on to mention that even if "material" then descended to the ground, it would be further diluted through the 27,000 feet of air it would need to "travel" through. I think he makes the point brilliantly.
     
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  36. Strawman

    Strawman Active Member

    But that's not a real answer, is it?
     
  37. KC-10FE

    KC-10FE Active Member


    Wizard of Oz chemtrail!


    surrender-dorothy.
     
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  38. Balance

    Balance Senior Member

    PUN or NLP? :p
     
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  39. David Fraser

    David Fraser Senior Member

    This is Maxs only response to criticism. He spent a while doing his research and having it blindly accepted by his acolytes. He does not take challenge well at all and rather than accept that there are a large group of individuals that question his belief he needs to personify that to one individual. That is far easier for him to accept.
     
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  40. JRBids

    JRBids Senior Member

    And he's mirroring. Just as his movement has many people blindly accepting what the leader says without question, so does the "anti" chemtrail movement.
     
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