If the passport was simply found on the street then what more help is there that he can possibly give?
The Satam al Suqami Passport
- Thread starter Bmead
- Start date
If the passport was simply found on the street then what more help is there that he can possibly give?
Cairenn
Senior Member.
Here is a list of missing black boxes. They are not 'indestructible' We don't have that technology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unrecovered_flight_recorders
And there is already a thread here on this and passport came up then.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unrecovered_flight_recorders
And there is already a thread here on this and passport came up then.
Bmead
Member
Yes any point behind the fireball i quite agree, and i gave you the option of it being directly under it. Now if you wish to know, there cannot without a bomb, be a fireball until the wings are ruptured, the fuel tanks are in that area not further forwards.
Therefore if it is sent backwards it needs really as you say to be behind the fireball, which puts the passport way back behind Suqamis seat and class the seat was in. Additionally a point i failed to suggest before, if it gets blown back, then you assert the rear of the plane split open and the passport got blown back behind the plane before the whole fireball had even burst out the other side (in wtc 1 the fireball appears on the impact entry first, unlike wtc 2 where it appears on exit first and entry after) so the passport can accelrate backwards at twice its impact speed but it cannot maintain its forward momentum to go through a part we KNOW was smashed apart and impact a wall?
How the hell can that make any sense
If it can go back through the plane, it can go forward if it does go forward it must be moving at the speed prior to impact whilst the plane is slowing. So hence why i said a passport that is on a person or bag or rested on a chair on its own or in a jacket HAS to smash forwards and impact walls and will not survive perfectly
Yet you are suggesting the fireball which occurs only in a spot where the passport shouldnt be, therefore sucked the passport backwards and flung it away?
Bmead
Member
Charkhi Dadri mid air crash
That is a nice comparison to any of the 9/11 planes, both planes hit, fall 13000 feet, debris neither strewn over miles nor sunk into the earth and lo- black boxes found. The wtc's- Bone fragments smaller than a finger yes, black boxes that suffer minimal impact and damage according to the physics of the crash and their placement in planes, Not even a half inch sliver found.
Totally reasonable. But a little off subject so i'll leave that for another day
Bmead
Member
I can only clarify this "where it was found" point again to make it better understood
The passport if found in the plaza is found much much earlier than the it was given to the detective, the plaza was cleared and emptied long before the collapses
So we can say IT MAY have been found there but then we say that 1-it was carried around for ages before they "remembered" and handed it in 2- someone snuck into the plaza to have a look saw debris and grabbed it 3- the only way into the plaza is if the passport went out the side of the tower or the back of the plane, due to the wind force and passports actual speed, if it went out the side, it would have landed either on a roof or on past the plaza area. It did not go out the back of the plane because it could not.
So the passport was not in the plaza because it couldn't be in the plaza, the same on the other side the wind would have drifted it towards wtc. The ONLY place it could have gone is anywhere between wtc 3 and albany street. With some leeway for sideways drifting and dropping sooner or later based on the maximum glide capacity based on momentum and weight. There is a scientific analysis of this (maximum range/glide) available if you want i'll find it.
But certainly the plaza/west street directly beside the tower ( also supported by the fact there was almost no damage on that side on the initial impact)
and backwards is also out. So we have the passport narrowed down quite a lot as to where it may be
The passport if found in the plaza is found much much earlier than the it was given to the detective, the plaza was cleared and emptied long before the collapses
So we can say IT MAY have been found there but then we say that 1-it was carried around for ages before they "remembered" and handed it in 2- someone snuck into the plaza to have a look saw debris and grabbed it 3- the only way into the plaza is if the passport went out the side of the tower or the back of the plane, due to the wind force and passports actual speed, if it went out the side, it would have landed either on a roof or on past the plaza area. It did not go out the back of the plane because it could not.
So the passport was not in the plaza because it couldn't be in the plaza, the same on the other side the wind would have drifted it towards wtc. The ONLY place it could have gone is anywhere between wtc 3 and albany street. With some leeway for sideways drifting and dropping sooner or later based on the maximum glide capacity based on momentum and weight. There is a scientific analysis of this (maximum range/glide) available if you want i'll find it.
But certainly the plaza/west street directly beside the tower ( also supported by the fact there was almost no damage on that side on the initial impact)
and backwards is also out. So we have the passport narrowed down quite a lot as to where it may be
Alienentity
Active Member
Look at the Naudet video. There is a large amount of debris thrown out along the NE side of WTC 1 on impact, and a fair amount of it well below the fireballs. The material could be pulverized building material, fragments of the jet and unburned fuel, office contents, and so on. Whatever it is, it didn't get incinerated by the fireballs - you can see it isn't burning.
Presuming that material landed somewhere roughly below, that would place some of it around WTC 5 and WTC 6, just South of them in the plaza. - looking at the drift of the material to the East, that could be around WTC 4 towards Church St.
A couple of minutes after impact the more solid items would have come to rest already, and could be seen and picked up by numerous people who were wandering the area.
There was no police cordon at that time anyway. There are simply dozens and dozens of spots where the passport might have landed and been eventually found, then carried some unknown distance to be given to that police officer.
You cannot possibly calculate all of those because of the dispersal of material both N and S of the tower, the area below which would receive this material, and the patterns of people leaving buildings and walking or wandering around.
There's not enough data for that calc. Can't be done. If you claim to be able to somehow 'narrow it down' I think it's an unsupportable claim; it's nothing but fiction.
I noticed Tony Szamboti earlier claimed that no debris from the aircraft exited the S face of WTC 1, but clearly that is false, as I showed earlier with both pictures and eyewitness accounts. I don't understand how someone who has devoted so much time to this subject could get such an important fact wrong. I just don't.
But it does help me to understand why the conclusions are so bizarre.
The shockwave from the ignited fuel may not have been extreme, but the momentum of the jet was extreme and carried an enormous pressure wave with it - it is that pressure wave which ejected so much material in several directions from the tower. Simulations have shown that the pressure from the fuel alone was capable of enormous destruction - you could compare it to a tsunami if you like only less mass and higher speed (same energy to destroy stuff though).
It doesn't require a solid object to do damage, that's a function of the mass and speed. After all, you can cut metal with a high pressure water jet....
Presuming that material landed somewhere roughly below, that would place some of it around WTC 5 and WTC 6, just South of them in the plaza. - looking at the drift of the material to the East, that could be around WTC 4 towards Church St.
A couple of minutes after impact the more solid items would have come to rest already, and could be seen and picked up by numerous people who were wandering the area.
There was no police cordon at that time anyway. There are simply dozens and dozens of spots where the passport might have landed and been eventually found, then carried some unknown distance to be given to that police officer.
You cannot possibly calculate all of those because of the dispersal of material both N and S of the tower, the area below which would receive this material, and the patterns of people leaving buildings and walking or wandering around.
There's not enough data for that calc. Can't be done. If you claim to be able to somehow 'narrow it down' I think it's an unsupportable claim; it's nothing but fiction.
I noticed Tony Szamboti earlier claimed that no debris from the aircraft exited the S face of WTC 1, but clearly that is false, as I showed earlier with both pictures and eyewitness accounts. I don't understand how someone who has devoted so much time to this subject could get such an important fact wrong. I just don't.
But it does help me to understand why the conclusions are so bizarre.
The shockwave from the ignited fuel may not have been extreme, but the momentum of the jet was extreme and carried an enormous pressure wave with it - it is that pressure wave which ejected so much material in several directions from the tower. Simulations have shown that the pressure from the fuel alone was capable of enormous destruction - you could compare it to a tsunami if you like only less mass and higher speed (same energy to destroy stuff though).
It doesn't require a solid object to do damage, that's a function of the mass and speed. After all, you can cut metal with a high pressure water jet....
Tony Szamboti
Active Member
The NIST report shows very little aircraft damage to the south face of WTC 1.
The fuel on the aircraft was known to be 10,000 gallons. This is a volume of 1,337 cubic feet and at least a third went up outside the building. That leaves about 900 cubic feet or a volume equivalent to that of a 3.5 foot x 18 foot diameter backyard pool. The fuel was spread over several floors which were about 40,000 square feet in area and that doesn't count the vertical surfaces which would add to the area. Spreading the fuel over 120,000 square feet would result in a film of about 0.090" thick. So it is very unlikely any tsunami action occurred after the initial wall was impacted.
I am consistently amazed at all of the destructive tasks the small amount of fuel, relative to the building size, is claimed to have performed by those supporting the present official theory. It is like the magic fuel theory.
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Trigger Hippie
Senior Member.
Isn't that similar to how thermobaric weapons work? Ignite a cloud of vaporized fuel.
Tony Szamboti
Active Member
There was a fuel air explosion milliseconds after impact, but it was only on the north side of WTC 1 and would not have involved an excessive amount of fuel. It can't get the passport past the south wall of the building and two blocks to the south.
I do think that adherents of the present official story are behaving as though the fuel was a do all and be all. So I think I will try it.
Hey, maybe the fuel got on the passport and amazingly only degraded the non-information part into a paper jet engine, which was then lit as it flew out of the small hole in the south wall, and propelled it two blocks to the south, where it hit the person who found it in the head and alerted him to it, just as a detective was parking his car nearby. The hit in the head by the fuel laden passport could have caused the guy to be incoherent, and the detective might have developed a similar condition from the fumes coming off of the passport. This would explain the break from what would be expected behavior by both people and how the passport made it past the relatively undamaged south wall of WTC 1.
I do think that adherents of the present official story are behaving as though the fuel was a do all and be all. So I think I will try it.
Hey, maybe the fuel got on the passport and amazingly only degraded the non-information part into a paper jet engine, which was then lit as it flew out of the small hole in the south wall, and propelled it two blocks to the south, where it hit the person who found it in the head and alerted him to it, just as a detective was parking his car nearby. The hit in the head by the fuel laden passport could have caused the guy to be incoherent, and the detective might have developed a similar condition from the fumes coming off of the passport. This would explain the break from what would be expected behavior by both people and how the passport made it past the relatively undamaged south wall of WTC 1.
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Trigger Hippie
Senior Member.
Is this not an image of a fireball exiting the south side of the building?
Why not?
Tony Szamboti
Active Member
I have never seen the fire on the south side in the photo you show and it is about ten to twenty stories below the aircraft impact, which makes me wonder about your photo. There was almost no damage to the south wall.Is this not an image of a fireball exiting the south side of the building?
Why not?
Trigger Hippie
Senior Member.
Look at fireball within the green circle. Is the fire exiting from the south side of the building?
George B
Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Where it was found, when was it found, how was it found and who found it . . . I have investigated: negligence, incompetence, accidents, suicides, murders, assaults, and acts of God . . . often as a third party investigator . . . don't remember anyone with significant evidence trying to remain anonymous . . . sure it is possible but pegs my curious meter all the way to "needs to be questioned." I can only think of four reasons 1) Person was completely devoid of an understanding of its importance (not highly likely), 2) Person was later killed or became incompetent (also, low likelihood), 3) Person feared any public disclosure (more likely) 4) The story of the policeman was false and/or the person was giving planted evidence. (Possible and should be investigated if possible). . .
Alienentity
Active Member
Yeah, exactly. This is why I'm amazed that Tony continues to make these kinds of easily debunked assertions. That's two big ones now:Is this not an image of a fireball exiting the south side of the building?
Why not?
a) that the aircraft didn't make it out the S side
b) that the fireball was only on the N side
Both assertions are false. And to your credit, TH, the stillframe shows very well large amounts of debris falling well below any fireball. If an item such as the passport was ejected by the impact pressure wave, it would not only not be burned but it might end up in any number of locations below.
Tony is trying to insert another fallacy into this discussion, which is that the passport dropped somewhere to the S or SW of WTC 1, where the cop first stopped. But nowhere in the record do we see anything to indicate that the passport was picked up at that location, so Tony's attempt to make it appear that way seems manipulative to me.
If Tony can prove that the passport was picked up there by the unidentified man, then he should show the proof, or withdraw the claim. That's a fair request I think.
Alienentity
Active Member
Sorry, I don't buy into this mindset. You simply don't know what the mind of that person was, and you won't unless you can eventually track him down. You might want to try it.
I have a feeling that even if a dude came forward and said 'I just saw it, and picked it up, recognized it was a passport and thought I should pass it on to this cop I walked into' you'd dismiss his explanation and still think he was working for the NWO or something. I'm skeptical that you'd accept any real evidence, you just don't seem to want this story to go any other way than the conspiracy way.
If you let yourself succumb to the paranoia/conspiracy mindset, there's no way to see things any other way. It's a one-way street to paranoia-ville.
You don't know who the dude was, what his mindset was, all you do is speculate endlessly. You're chasing your own tails on this one. As usual, I might add.
Trigger Hippie
Senior Member.
How much debris can be seen drifting south of WTC1 in this picture? How far would it drift before reaching ground level? Just give me a best guess.
George B
Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Don't think one would have to track "him" down . . . unless "he" was traumatized beyond normal he/she/it will probably come forward on their own . . . and by the way healthy skepticism catches much criminal activity . . . just say some human behavior is atypical and leads to further investigation . . .
Trigger Hippie
Senior Member.
Do you think maybe it's the perspective that makes it looks like it's 10-20 stories below the aircraft impact?
Trigger Hippie
Senior Member.
The thing that gets me is, I posted this picture back on page one of this thread... about 328 posts ago.
Alienentity
Active Member
It's really hard to take Tony seriously. What concerns me is that Tony is one of AE911Truth's most senior and respected members. And yet he's really, really inaccurate with things like this. It doesn't give me confidence in the abilities of these 'truther' organizations.
Meh
Tony Szamboti
Active Member
Are you saying the fireball shown in that photo on the south side is on the same vertical level with the impact on the north side? Because that is what would be needed for the passport to blow through it, as its momentum would have been horizontal.
The NIST report analysis shows a small amount of debris moving at 105 mph at the south wall of WTC 1, with at most one or two columns damaged. So you people who aren't skeptical about the passport being legitimately owned by a hijacker, and escaping from the building and being found by an unidentified person who turns it into the police, have a problem even getting it out of the building, that you are trying to address with a hand wave.
You might as well say the passport went down the elevator shaft and blew out of the lobby when the fireball allegedly did that.
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Alienentity
Active Member
Tony, we're saying that, regardless of the NIST report, you can see a lot of debris on multiple sides of the tower; N, E, S and even W to a lesser extent.
Since the debris on the South side included seat cushions, body parts and paper, it is factually correct to say that some airline debris came out that side. But nobody except you guys are claiming to know exactly where the passport exited the building. I don't know, nor does it concern me much that I don't - it appears it managed, along with much other light material, to exit unscathed and then be found below by one of the thousands of people wandering around.
Has anyone figured out how many thousands were down there? They saw things, they picked things up. We know all this. It's not speculation, it happened.
Where do you think all the stuff on Liberty st came from? Either flight 11 or the tower itself. Take your pick. If life jackets and seat cushions could get there, so could a passport. Or is a passport not allowed to behave like any other piece of debris?
If it were a book or a wallet you wouldn't be worrying about it. You're attaching baggage to your analysis which isn't warranted by the event.
It's not surprising to me that, after 12 years, you're essentially getting nowhere with this mindset and approach. I concur with Mick's sentiments regarding getting things backwards. I think he has it right.
Since the debris on the South side included seat cushions, body parts and paper, it is factually correct to say that some airline debris came out that side. But nobody except you guys are claiming to know exactly where the passport exited the building. I don't know, nor does it concern me much that I don't - it appears it managed, along with much other light material, to exit unscathed and then be found below by one of the thousands of people wandering around.
Has anyone figured out how many thousands were down there? They saw things, they picked things up. We know all this. It's not speculation, it happened.
Where do you think all the stuff on Liberty st came from? Either flight 11 or the tower itself. Take your pick. If life jackets and seat cushions could get there, so could a passport. Or is a passport not allowed to behave like any other piece of debris?
If it were a book or a wallet you wouldn't be worrying about it. You're attaching baggage to your analysis which isn't warranted by the event.
It's not surprising to me that, after 12 years, you're essentially getting nowhere with this mindset and approach. I concur with Mick's sentiments regarding getting things backwards. I think he has it right.
Trigger Hippie
Senior Member.
Tony Szamboti
Active Member
The aircraft had a north to south trajectory when it hit the building so an aircraft passenger's passport would have had southward momentum. But the debris velocity was very low by the time it reached the south wall and there is essentially no damage to the south wall, so it could not have left the building.
There is not a person here who who has provided a sound scientific basis for getting a passport out of the south side of WTC 1 and two blocks south, where it is alleged to have been found by an anonymous person and handed to a detective.
There is not a person here who who has provided a sound scientific basis for getting a passport out of the south side of WTC 1 and two blocks south, where it is alleged to have been found by an anonymous person and handed to a detective.
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Trigger Hippie
Senior Member.
You keep saying that.
Once again... does this picture show debris ejected from the south side of WTC1?
If so, how far is the debris being ejected?
Tony Szamboti
Active Member
It would be interesting to see what would happen to evidence like this alleged hacker passport in a court, given that the cop never got the alleged finder's name or even asked where it was found.
Tony Szamboti
Active Member
This is why an evidentiary trail is important and why it was important for the cop to get the person's name and the location of the passport when found.
It does seem that any attempt at alleging the finder now would have a tough time in a court since there isn't much original background to give him/her standing. But there are still ways to develop credibility if the passport was actually found and handed in as alleged and the real finder was to come forward.
The reality is that it is more likely that evidence planting is the reason for a no-name finder and lack of location for the passport when found.
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Cairenn
Senior Member.
Well, some things will never be known. It is unfortunate that life is not like a movie or a book. It leaves loose ends.
At the time it was handed to the policeman, no one knew that it belonged to one of the hijackers. May be you think the policeman had the time to get all the info that the conspiracy folks would like. There were other more important things for him to do.
Of course since to your group everyone was 'in on it' the policeman should have known when the towers would fall and how much time he had and such.
At the time it was handed to the policeman, no one knew that it belonged to one of the hijackers. May be you think the policeman had the time to get all the info that the conspiracy folks would like. There were other more important things for him to do.
Of course since to your group everyone was 'in on it' the policeman should have known when the towers would fall and how much time he had and such.
George B
Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Since the standard of evidence for the 911 Commission and NIST was not those required in criminal or civil proceedings . . . they are thus able to speculate that the passport was from one of the aircraft that struck the Towers . . . proof for public consumption is much, much lower . . . I suppose there was no desire to prosecute those responsible?
They wouldn't need it for court. The prosecutor would use the passenger manifest. Simple.
Tony Szamboti
Active Member
Given the lack of pedigree with both the witness/finder and location, and the difficulty in getting it out of the building with it having been on a southward trajectory and little to no south wall damage, it is very unlikely that the passport would be allowed as evidence, in a court, as proof of a certain person being on the plane as a hijacker. As you imply, much of what the 911 Commission and NIST said would be cast aside in a courtroom also.
It is pretty clear that it was for public consumption and can somewhat fairly be labeled as propaganda.
Not based on your whim. Any evidence?
In your opinion. Let's try to deal with actual facts here Tony. Please don't derail an already helterskelter thread with your personal opinions. Let's focus on facts. Like your claim of "little or no south wall damage" - can you back that up, based on the contradictory evidence above? And can you then demonstrate the impossibility of the passport exiting in any other direction?
Tony Szamboti
Active Member
No judge would allow it as evidence as it has no bonifides.
Tony Szamboti
Active Member
Mick, take a look at the south wall of WTC 1 in NIST NCSTAR 1-2 and tell me how something with a southward trajectory while inside the building gets out of it heading south.
By the way, the reality that the situation with the passport has no bonafides to allow it to be introduced as evidence in a court is a fact.
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That's not the point of this thread. The point is if it's possible it came from the plane.
Post an image of it. Then we can discuss it.
Tony Szamboti
Active Member
You can't copy images from the NIST report as it is locked. It is available on the web.
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