jarlrmai
Senior Member.
Until it breaks free or accidentally released.
Langley AFB video on Reddit & Twitter [Kite]
- Thread starter AllTheQuestionsToday
- Start date
FatPhil
Senior Member.
The thing that perturbs me most is that it was at night time, and he seems just as much in violation of:
-- https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-F/part-101External Quote:
Merely having at least 7 items of flare does not seem to be enough to be to code.
@JMartJr : can you eyeball the altitude, because he might also have just confessed to violating this as well:
-- ibid.External Quote:
Mendel
Senior Member.
Then it would no longer be moored, and rule doesn't apply.
Also, it wouldn't remain in the vicinity of the airport for long in that case.
Kites are typically not that heavy, so they're not much of a hazard to aviation to begin with.
Mendel
Senior Member.
If he's limiting the kite to 150ft, the lighting requirement doesn't apply.
JMartJr
Senior Member.
My impression is that he is not very high, I'd bet money on under 500 feet and would best-guess maybe 150-200. (Someone flying a kite to put on a show, such as using leds at night, does not normally go for the "fly it way up there" approach, as the higher you fly, the smaller and less impressive the show is!)
Worth noting that I fly a similar kite-and tail on 250# to 500# (breaking strength) line, depending on wind and what is near the top of the line bag. (That is over kill on line strength, but as line wears, or at knots, the line strength is less than rated, and as long as there is wind to lift the weight of line might as well use too strong rather than risking not-strong-enough!). That is normally sold in lengths of 250 feet to 500 feet. While it is possible to get longer line that's what is usual from most retailers, rolled onto a "halo spool" or other winder.
But even with 500' of line, you don't always put all the line out, and if you do the kite is not straight up! The line goes out at an angle that means the altitude is les than the line length, and there is catenary (sag) in the line that shortens it's effective length a bit.
Flying similar kites, I get the best show at about 100-150 feet up, though might go higher at n event with a crowded sky or to get smooth winds if there was a lot of ground turbulence.
This kite is not very heavy, though it contains a hard rechargeable battery weighing maybe a quarter pound, (the tail also has a smaller battery), and lengths of wire connecting that to the lights, and of course the line goes with the kite above wherever it breaks. Not the sort of thing I'd want to get sucked into an engine, or wrapped around a prop. For example:
https://thebalisun.com/bali-reviews-aviation-safety-after-kite-causes-tourist-helicopter-crash/
It's fair to note that traditional Balinese kites can be pretty big, and images I have seen of the incident show a very heavy monofilament line. But then, line used to fly this led kite in the video is substantially bigger than what most folks probably think of when they think of "kite string."External Quote:
Skip this part if you don't want a humorous kite anecdote related to FAA rules. At one point I was employed to fly what was then one of the three-way-tied kites for largest in the world, and we were flying at a private plane airport on Long Island which had been closed for the day for a balloon festival. Even though the airport was closed, the FAA had some qualms about flying a kite there, but since it was in the middle of a balloon festival they agreed that we could fly, but asked that we hang some orange flagging tape on the kite just to be on the safe side. So that weekend, before flying, we dutifully and solemnly tied a six foot length of orange flagging tape to a huge American flag measuring 130 by 80 feet, just to make sure any pilot coming into the closed airport for some reason would notice it.
Mendel
Senior Member.
a pigeon weighs half a pound and more
not going to be a problem
not going to be a problem, except maaaaaaybe with an adjustable prop, and even then it's not going to be a crash landing
Helicopters can fly low anywhere, so the distance to the airport does not really matter. In the Bali incident, the picture shows that the line got tangled in the rotor control rods, which would have made the helicopter uncontrollable. (Hopefully there's going to be an accident report.)
(via https://asn.flightsafety.org/wikibase/402635 )
So it's not just birds that are more dangerous to aviation than UAPs, it's also kites!
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JMartJr
Senior Member.
Should probably mention the potential for trouble when a pilot, approaching or leaving an airport, is suddenly confronted with something on or near their flight path, and has to decide in fractions of a second what to do about it. Unknown stuff that might need to be dodged seems to me to be a sufficient hazard that restricting kites and balloons around airports is fully justified.
Mendel
Senior Member.
Yes.
In practical terms, the regulations are made for laypeople who do not understand glide-slopes (nor do they need to). Aircraft landing at Langley AFB on a 3⁰ glide slope would be 500 ft up as they pass near Messick point, and would hardly notice a kite anchored at 150 ft off to the side.
But the regulations have to delineate a safety zone in simple terms, so for hazards that could fly at up to 500 ft, 5 miles it is.
If they're kite-surfing on that lake, I expect they have some sort of arrangement with the people at the airport.
JMartJr
Senior Member.
Or possibly are just ignoring the regulations, and being ignored -- kite surfing lines run about 65 t0 100 feet (so the kites would normally be lower than that, see Post #46, though surfing kites can fly at a high angle and often get a "altitude boost" when the surfer jumps, pic below) so they may just be too low to have brought attention to themselves, unless they were to fly right off the end of the runway... would radar pick them up that low?
Duke
Senior Member.
Doubtful. In addition to probably being too low, what on kite surfers or their kit would geneate radar returns? The small amount of metal on their tow bar/risers? Harness/belt? Don't think the board, kite, or its lines would geneate returns, same with the actual surfer.
JMartJr
Senior Member.
Not sure anything would on standard setups, though my knowledge of what would generate a radar return is minimal! Some of them now have a "hydrofoil" fin attached to the board, which is sometimes made of carbon laminate, aluminum or, I'm told, steel. Presumably the later two would possibly show up if a jump was high enough, even if the former didn't.
But for standard kite surfing, yeah, I don't know that they'd show up on radar at all.
Mendel
Senior Member.
From the KNKT.24.07.21.04 preliminary report:
This line was wrapped around the main rotor mast, deforming the control rods, and around the tail rotor. The report mentions two other occurrences of helicopter rotors getting entangled with kite strings in July 2024 in Bali, though those had uneventful outcomes.
The final report is pending, afaik.
I asked for help in geolocating this video, and thanks to @MonkeeSage and @Kyle Ferriter it has now been approximately geolocated to 36.989900, -76.543798 on the western shores of the James River near Smithfield. However, I spoke with the actual witness via Reddit chat and confirmed that the location was slightly north of there:
The red circle shows the actual area the witness was. I dont know the exact house or location and even if I did I wouldn't share it as the witness asked me not to.
I eventually got him to share the metadata of the first video in the clip - Thursday Dec 14 2023, 7.48pm Local = Dec 15 Dec 2023 00.48UTC
Checking ADSB exchange at that date & time shows the was an aircraft callsign FORGE52 over the James River on an approach to Williamsberg airport.
Cessna 560 00-01052
Viewing the ADSB kml in Google Earth shows how the path of the 'orb/drone' matches the plane's trajectory.
When I asked the witness if he would be surprised if I could show there was a plane overhead at the time he said:
To be fair to him he was very helpful and was very concerned about his exact location being shared or looking stupid. He seems genuine and I ended up having a nice conversation with him - but he did say this:
I think this again is a case where someone maybe sees planes in a way that they haven't seen them before from a location they havent watched them before, thinks they look weird and therefore they must be weird. That, along with the other reports of 'drones' being sighted nearby makes them conclude that the two events/sightings are linked or are one in the same.
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jarlrmai
Senior Member.
Well done @flarkey imagine if witnesses provided accurate location and date and time at the start..
This thread is a little confused now as its been solved as a kite for a different video..
Does it need splitting or a dual explanation for the 2 different videos over Langley AFB
@Mick West
This thread is a little confused now as its been solved as a kite for a different video..
Does it need splitting or a dual explanation for the 2 different videos over Langley AFB
@Mick West
Mendel
Senior Member.
We're all trying to make sense of what we see in terms of what we know, that's human. It takes training to be able to step back and question yourself—it's definitely easier to question others.
Kudos to the witness for being open to being proven wrong, and sharing the data with you. I wish the "TV personalities" would always do that!
Mendel
Senior Member.
Aircraft on approach may be descending, with the engine throttled back. Their sound is more quiet than usual.Checking ADSB exchange at that date & time shows the was an aircraft callsign FORGE52 over the James River on an approach to Williamsberg airport.
I don't think that the witness has accepted my conclusions at all.
Here's another sighting they shared recently:
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1kg9hot/glowing_orange_orb/
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1kg9hot/comment/mr12214/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button .
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jarlrmai
Senior Member.
I don't think that the witness has accepted my conclusions at all.
Here's another sighting they shared recently:
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1kg9hot/glowing_orange_orb/
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1kg9hot/comment/mr12214/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
As is often the case the often people are unfortunately not looking for mundane explanations.
Mendel
Senior Member.
Honestly, I don't expect that, especially not in a situation where social pressure applies. It may happen later, or perhaps never.I don't think that the witness has accepted my conclusions at all.
But they gave you the data, which they didn't need to do, and they conceded that there might have been aircraft noise that they didn't notice at the time. And that's being open to the idea that there's a different way to see things, and to support the people (us) who see it that way.
We all believe what we believe. We're not easily reasoned out of a belief we didn't reason ourselves into.
But we strive to take people seriously who believe something we don't agree with. Organic_Wrangler did this, and I respect them for it.
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