Setting aside the reputation of the journal, Lopez's article concludes that Josefina's skull is a llama. It was published in 2021, three years after he presented to Congress in Peru where he provided "evidence" the mummy was real and didn't attempt to compare the skull to a llama.
(I've seen some confusion where he was thought to also present the aliens at the 2023 Mexico hearing but this isn't true - they were presented by Jois Mantilla. Presumably Lopez's initial work was included there, though obviously not his later llama-work.)
So the question is: what's his current position on Josefina? Is he out from under Maussan's influence now? Otherwise, why write the paper saying the mummy is a hoax?
José de la Cruz attended that session, but he didn't give any speech. He was just sitting among the audience. He never stopped supporting Jaime Maussan. Days after I exposed his "paper", he appeared on YouTube saying it was a mistake that will soon be "corrected", and added that the main conclusion is that those "beings" need more research.
His current position never changed. He supported and supports Jaime Maussan, he bombs the internet with insults towards all scientists that debunk this hoax by calling them "ignorants".
His current position never changed. He supported and supports Jaime Maussan, he bombs the internet with insults towards all scientists that debunk this hoax by calling them "ignorants".
So, another guy, Cliff Miles, has come along and claimed the mummies are real. The story is that he is a retired paleontologist:
While this discovery was shocking to the millions of viewers who tuned in, it wasn't shocking to Cliff Miles, a retired paleontologist based in Orem, Utah.
Miles has been studying the aliens long before they were publicly autopsied, and his Miles Paper prove that they were real all along.
"I personally removed all of the Diatomaceous earth off of Josephina when I went to Peru," he told The Express exclusively, referring to the so-called "alien autopsy" body.
"Her skin is complete and intact for her entire body. No Seams, No scars. No way to create a fake of any kind," he continued. "She is sound."
Just to start off, I'll note Miles claims to be a paleontologists, not an anthropologist or bio-archaeologist. I guess that works as the aliens are clearly not anatomically modern humans:
Paleontology
(/ˌpeɪliɒnˈtɒlədʒi, ˌpæli-, -ən-/), also spelled palaeontology[a] or palæontology, is the scientific study of life that existed prior to, and sometimes including, the start of the Holoceneepoch (roughly 11,700 years before present).
In addition to them being real, they have advanced medicine:
Miles also pointed out that aliens have their own form of medicine, and that the alien body exhibited proof of this medicine, which he believes is better than human medicine.
"If there is a scar, it is under her medical device that is on her chest," he said. "She has had her clavicle operated on, with the medial portion of them being removed. I fully expect alien medicine to be superior to our own."
I don't quite know what he's saying here. Is he claiming there is a medical device on the mummy? And he says part of her clavicle has been removed. Isn't that consistent with it being cobbled together with broken or incomplete clavicles to begin with?
He goes on to say we should go see them:
He continued: "To my knowledge not one single person who has gone to Peru to see this material for themselves has come away thinking that they are fraudulent. If you or anyone wants to directly view the specimens housed in Peru, contact the Universidad Nacional San Luis Gonzaga of Ica (UNICA)."
And finally, he's working on a peer reviewed paper:
Miles said that his next paper will be released in 2024 - and this peer-reviewed paper will provide further proof that aliens are, indeed, real.
A quick glance at his website reveals nothing about his credentials or anything about him but does include his Christmas book about a girl in a red bonnet and a Dr. Wahls book about Paleo diets along with links to various UFO sightings:
I was hesitant to download the PDF, but this is an old clunky laptop so I clicked. It didn't really download, just opened tab with The Miles Paper. It's 248 pages and quite the read, could maybe use a thread of its own, but it's about the same mummies so maybe just leave it here.
What's interesting is he claims to have created the protocols for examining the mummies and even offers a new Family, Geinus and Species for the creatures (seriously), but I don't recall Maussan ever mentioning his name.
No where on his site does Miles list his credentials and if they're in the paper I haven't found them yet. His LinkedIn lists him as a retired CFO of Western Paleontological Laboratories Inc. in Lehi UT. Some old newspaper articles (1996) say the company was involved in building an interactive Dinosaur museum that's geared towards kids in the same town. It's still there. He also mentions this in the paper.
Here is his "abstract" 9page 1) for a paper that argues for a new taxonomic Family, Geinus and Species:
The proposed new name for the mummies is Moultonus dolani in the new family Kosmosidae as noted here (pages 7-8):
With photos:
The rest of the first 1/2 of the paper is pictures and his analysis of said pictures taken from various GAIA TV (think UFO/paranormal programing) documentaries.
The second 1/2 is just UFOs and Lockheed SKunkworks. Eric Davis's Wilson Memeo and other random stuff, including cameo's by Maussan, Timothy Good, Jeremy Corbell, Robert Salas, Rendlesham Forest, more Linda Moulton Howe, Brian Forester, the faked Belgum UFO photos and Chris Lehto's breakdown of the Turky UFO videos. How any of this relates to naming a new Family, Geinus and species, I don't know.
He claims to save the best for last (page 247):
'Ol Skinny Bob.
Other's can probe this paper in more depth, I'm waiting for Mr. Miles forthcoming peer reviewed paper.
Cliff Miles is in Orem, Utah. For what it's worth, Orem (per Wikipedia) is said to have 97% of its population as members of the LDS (strong believers in extraterrestrial life) and the map shows me it is about 120 miles from Skinwalker Ranch. This may or may not color his judgment about the mummies. Nope, I can't prove this influenced his assessment.
Regarding the mixed-up bones in the Josefina mummy, which were identified by the Russian scientists for Antropogenez.ru in this review, there is evidence the scientists involved with Thierry Jamin (the researcher who acquired the mummies) and Jaime Maussan (who is promoting them) are fully aware that her hands are a big problem, as the mixed-up bones instantly prove she is pieced-together.
The problem: This screenshot from this video by Scientists Against Myths [7:48] is Josefina's x-ray, the hi-res photos of which can be downloaded from the Antropogenez link above. It shows some bones in each hand are upside-down on opposite sides of the body. While we could argue an alien might evolve upside-down phalanges compared to us, they would not plausibly be asymmetrical.
Korotkov dismissed their analysis (as ML2017/Scientists Against Myths explained), preferring instead to concentrate on the CT scans (and DNA etc) which are less clear to the layman.
Hiding the problem: The x-ray of Josefina's hands is being deliberately obscured and omitted in my opinion, proving the hoaxers are hiding the evidence because it's so obvious:
The Alien Project website is the "official" site for the analysis of these mummies, apparently belonging to Thierry Jamin. I haven't found the hi-res x-rays on that site. I got them from Antropogenez.ru, which was sent them by Korotkov.
I can't find any clear x-rays on The Alien Project that show both hands (so they might be compared). This page on Josefina does have a video (the second one) that displays the x-ray on and off, but too small to make out details. At 2:47 we get a closer look but one entire arm is obscured. (This is José de la Cruz Ríos López who presented to Peruvian Congress and who in 2021 wrote a paper concluding her skull is a llama.)
The Results page on The Alien Project has several scans of Josefina but the one x-ray provided does not show both hands:
Most damning of all, at the Mexico UFO hearing in September, Mantilla shows this slide of Josefina's x-rays [3:12:54] - at no other time do they show x-rays of her hands. And as you can see, her hands have been faded or blacked out here for no valid reason.
In a similar vein, during the livestream (Sep 18, 2023) of the scanning of Clara (a similar mummy, footage of Josefina's results were displayed. They show an animation of Josefina's 3D scan, including hands, and it dissolves into her x-ray. And her hands just... vanish. It's pretty amazing actually. [20:18]
Good points, it occured to me as well. Also interesting to see they used some left over spare-ribs from the local grill restaurant as a rib cage. It is all hilarious.
Presumably the dumb-bell-shaped piece across the upper chest (crudely drawn "A".)
Out of curiosity, does anybody know what the cause of the lighter rectangle (crudely drawn "B")? I'm assuming some artifact of the scanning process/scanner? Not crucially important, it is clearly not part of the mummy... just curious.
No. He doesn't really think the skull belongs to a llama. I think he didn't really write it, because he himself is not a specialist in the analysis of ct-scans. He always denied the results of this 'paper', even recently, after media quoted massively his 'paper' to debunk the hoax he posted on his Facebook wall what he's been repeating for long. The bodies need "more analyses" and his analysis is neither "conclusive nor accurate".
So, another guy, Cliff Miles, has come along and claimed the mummies are real. The story is that he is a retired paleontologist:
While this discovery was shocking to the millions of viewers who tuned in, it wasn't shocking to Cliff Miles, a retired paleontologist based in Orem, Utah.
Miles has been studying the aliens long before they were publicly autopsied, and his Miles Paper prove that they were real all along.
"I personally removed all of the Diatomaceous earth off of Josephina when I went to Peru," he told The Express exclusively, referring to the so-called "alien autopsy" body.
"Her skin is complete and intact for her entire body. No Seams, No scars. No way to create a fake of any kind," he continued. "She is sound."
Just to start off, I'll note Miles claims to be a paleontologists, not an anthropologist or bio-archaeologist. I guess that works as the aliens are clearly not anatomically modern humans:
Paleontology
(/ˌpeɪliɒnˈtɒlədʒi, ˌpæli-, -ən-/), also spelled palaeontology[a] or palæontology, is the scientific study of life that existed prior to, and sometimes including, the start of the Holoceneepoch (roughly 11,700 years before present).
In addition to them being real, they have advanced medicine:
Miles also pointed out that aliens have their own form of medicine, and that the alien body exhibited proof of this medicine, which he believes is better than human medicine.
"If there is a scar, it is under her medical device that is on her chest," he said. "She has had her clavicle operated on, with the medial portion of them being removed. I fully expect alien medicine to be superior to our own."
I don't quite know what he's saying here. Is he claiming there is a medical device on the mummy? And he says part of her clavicle has been removed. Isn't that consistent with it being cobbled together with broken or incomplete clavicles to begin with?
He goes on to say we should go see them:
He continued: "To my knowledge not one single person who has gone to Peru to see this material for themselves has come away thinking that they are fraudulent. If you or anyone wants to directly view the specimens housed in Peru, contact the Universidad Nacional San Luis Gonzaga of Ica (UNICA)."
And finally, he's working on a peer reviewed paper:
Miles said that his next paper will be released in 2024 - and this peer-reviewed paper will provide further proof that aliens are, indeed, real.
A quick glance at his website reveals nothing about his credentials or anything about him but does include his Christmas book about a girl in a red bonnet and a Dr. Wahls book about Paleo diets along with links to various UFO sightings:
I was hesitant to download the PDF, but this is an old clunky laptop so I clicked. It didn't really download, just opened tab with The Miles Paper. It's 248 pages and quite the read, could maybe use a thread of its own, but it's about the same mummies so maybe just leave it here.
What's interesting is he claims to have created the protocols for examining the mummies and even offers a new Family, Geinus and Species for the creatures (seriously), but I don't recall Maussan ever mentioning his name.
No where on his site does Miles list his credentials and if they're in the paper I haven't found them yet. His LinkedIn lists him as a retired CFO of Western Paleontological Laboratories Inc. in Lehi UT. Some old newspaper articles (1996) say the company was involved in building an interactive Dinosaur museum that's geared towards kids in the same town. It's still there. He also mentions this in the paper.
Here is his "abstract" 9page 1) for a paper that argues for a new taxonomic Family, Geinus and Species:
The proposed new name for the mummies is Moultonus dolani in the new family Kosmosidae as noted here (pages 7-8):
With photos:
The rest of the first 1/2 of the paper is pictures and his analysis of said pictures taken from various GAIA TV (think UFO/paranormal programing) documentaries.
The second 1/2 is just UFOs and Lockheed SKunkworks. Eric Davis's Wilson Memeo and other random stuff, including cameo's by Maussan, Timothy Good, Jeremy Corbell, Robert Salas, Rendlesham Forest, more Linda Moulton Howe, Brian Forester, the faked Belgum UFO photos and Chris Lehto's breakdown of the Turky UFO videos. How any of this relates to naming a new Family, Geinus and species, I don't know.
He claims to save the best for last (page 247):
'Ol Skinny Bob.
Other's can probe this paper in more depth, I'm waiting for Mr. Miles forthcoming peer reviewed paper.
The case appears in a full chapter of the book "The Dinosaur Artist" by journalist Paige Williams. Miles is introduced in the book as the owner of a commercial fossil company in Utah called Western Paleontological Laboratories. The book details how Dr. Vilayanur S. Ramachandran, on the advice of Cliff Miles, purchased a fossil skull five years earlier at Tucson Gem, Mineral and Fossil Showcase. This event has raised serious concerns because of the illegal importation of fossils from China, Mongolia and other countries... In the book and in the Nature article, it is noted that Miles told Dr. Ramachandran, "Buy it and I'll put your name on it." Ramanchandran paid $10,000 for the skull. Miles later published an article titled "Skull of Minotaurasaurus ramachandrani, a new Cretaceous ankylosaur from the Gobi Desert" in Current Science, an Indian journal. The same year, Miles was featured in another article about the failed auction of a 150-million-year-old dryosaurus in New York. No potential buyer submitted the minimum bid of $280,000.
About his papers, well what to say? it's enough to take a look at the pictures. It's up to everyone to take that 'paper' seriously or not lol.
Here are some pictures:
The pic in the left is scene from The X-Files and the pic of the right is a well known photoshopped pic.
No. He doesn't really think the skull belongs to a llama. I think he didn't really write it, because he himself is not a specialist in the analysis of ct-scans. He always denied the results of this 'paper', even recently, after media quoted massively his 'paper' to debunk the hoax he posted on his Facebook wall what he's been repeating for long. The bodies need "more analyses" and his analysis is neither "conclusive nor accurate".
OMG does he not know what putting your name on a research paper means? I have to think he wanted to get ahead of the hoax by admitting it was a llama (after his colleagues did the work), then changed his mind after the paper came out because he wanted to remain involved in the alien-mummy-discovery game.
Lopez going all-in on the alien with his diagram. Let's see if anyone associated with this "research" calls for DNA testing of the skulls. So far I think only Victoria (the headless one) has had DNA testing.
Lopez going all-in on the alien with his diagram. Let's see if anyone associated with this "research" calls for DNA testing of the skulls. So far I think only Victoria (the headless one) has had DNA testing.
The llama skulls were also mummified and dated to ~1000 years old.
This article from the Smithsonian describes 500-year-old llama mummies. Also guinea pigs.
Four well-preserved llamas killed in South America more than 500 years ago hold clues to the religious and political practices of the Inca Empire, new research suggests.
Why has it got a uterus? It lays eggs.
The oviducts of monotreme mammals are sometimes confusingly referred to as the uterus.
That isn't the case here, because separate structures are labelled as oviducts.
While this is labelled as the reproductive apparatus, no gonads are present. A rather major anatomical oversight.
I doubt a woman hoaxer would forget ovaries.
Gonads are generally considered to be an important part of a reproductive system.
And a vagina is not a hole. If this creature has a vaginal structure, presumably leading to the cervix, it would seem to be between the terminal oviduct and the cloaca, making the process of egg-laying difficult.
This supposedly cloacal, egg-laying creature also has a vagina, cervix and uterus. But no gonads. It is nonsense.
Yeah, and that's clearly a really dodgy shop. The illumination is painted in (on both P & A) as if it's coming from a point source (it's crisp compared to the fuzzy shadow of both faces from the real thing), but you can't extend the light rays anywhere that would converge (e.g. A's chin vs P's nose). It's odd that they would repaint P's shadow, they made it more wrong by so doing.
The llama skulls were also mummified and dated to ~1000 years old.
This article from the Smithsonian describes 500-year-old llama mummies. Also guinea pigs.
Four well-preserved llamas killed in South America more than 500 years ago hold clues to the religious and political practices of the Inca Empire, new research suggests.
Yeah, that's because the Inca empire began approximately around 1438, and the Nazca culture (area where the skulls and bones were quite probably collected) began around 10 BC and went into decline around 700 AD. In pre-Inca cultures it was common to bury kids or people with their pets, with their belongings or with animals as offering.. although for such exact topics I'd rather recommend to check qualified sources.
No. He doesn't really think the skull belongs to a llama. I think he didn't really write it, because he himself is not a specialist in the analysis of ct-scans. He always denied the results of this 'paper', even recently, after media quoted massively his 'paper' to debunk the hoax he posted on his Facebook wall what he's been repeating for long. The bodies need "more analyses" and his analysis is neither "conclusive nor accurate".
Full translation of Lopez's post (via Google Translate, cx welcome):
CLARIFICATION
A year ago I published an article in a scientific journal about the study we carried out with colleagues from the Netherlands, interested in the case of tridactyl mummies.
This document has been taken as a basis to discredit the mummies, so for me it is important to point out that the main objective of this publication was to bring the topic of the Nazca mummies to scientific attention, which has not been easy at all due to the controversy of the topic, however it was possible to publish through a "Working hypotheses about the questioned skulls of these beings.”
It should be noted that the study makes the following points clear and that it is neither conclusive nor precise, since more research must be carried out:
The current study is limited.
Low resolution of computed tomography.
More comparisons need to be made with other skulls.
More tests are needed with C14, DNA, tomography, and higher resolution computed tomography.
Perform an autopsy.
Having clarified these points, "said publication does not determine that this is a fraud", therefore it must be complemented with other studies to reach a precise conclusion as required by scientific research.
Sincerely
biologist José de la C. Ríos López [with a link to his paper]
Source: Facebook
Note: He also deleted the post where he's holding the photo of Josefina's reproductive system, which I screenshotted above soon after he made it. His latest visible post is now from 2019.
Note that conclusion of the paper itself is rather more certain than he described in his post.
Conclusion:
...The “archaeological” find with an unknown form of “animal” was identified to have a head composed of a llama deteriorated braincase. The examination of the seemingly new form shows that it is made from mummified parts of unidentified animals.
...There is a great similarity in shape and features between Josephina’s skull and the braincase of a llama (and an alpaca). There are also features on Josephina’s skull like the orbital fissure and the optic canal, similar to the llama’s, that are however on the opposite site of the skull than where they should be, forcing one to accept that the skull of Josephina is a modified llama braincase.
López et al, "Applying CT-scanning for the identification of a skull of an unknown archaeological find in Peru", International Journal of Biology and Biomedicine, Vol 6, 2021: 45-65
ETA: He describes his co-authors as being from the Netherlands, but they have Greek names and work in Cyprus:
GEORGIOS A. FLORIDES
PAUL CHRISTODOULIDES
both affiliated with: Faculty of Engineering and Technology, Cyprus University of Technology, 3603 Limassol CYPRUS
Yeah, but on the other hand these to-me-obvious fakes are getting a lot of attention and traction. I suspect most of it is trolling, but how can you tell?
I'm musing a bit here- hope it's not too far off-topic.
In the British comic 2000AD there was a serial from 1979 on called "The V.C.s".
The titular V.C.s ("Vacuum Cleaners") were six mismatched starship troopers serving after the unsuspecting Earth and her colonies came under surprise attack from the alien G'egeekajee ("Geeks") https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_V.C.s
This is supposedly medical imaging of one of the "Peruvian mummy" "eggs"
From https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1702018060411093160.html, Clint Ehrlich.
(I strongly suspect that this is a CGI manipulation of existing medical/ veterinarian imagery.)
Here's a soldier-caste Geek (proportions not so different from the mummies)- and their species lays eggs!
They- like the mummies- have some reptilian features.
They are also tridactyl, three digits per limb (different artists worked on the story 1979-2006, early Geeks had 1 claw per digit)
Now, it must be very unlikely that this comic strip had any influence at all on the design of the "mummies".
But to make a broader point, I think it's interesting how often the concepts presented as evidence by Ufologists and associated figures like Jaime Maussan are prefigured or anticipated in fiction.
We know SF magazine covers showed alien flying discs, orbs and crescents years before anyone reported seeing a "real" one Link, "How have descriptions of UAPs changed over the years?" on this forum,
and there are a number of candidates for "proto-Greys" in the years before UFO enthusiasts seemed to settle on their description of archetypal Grey aliens in the late 80's/ early 90's, also discussed here Link, "Origin of iconic alien face?"
The small minority of the "We're being visited by ETIs" advocates who feel the need to fake evidence are just so unoriginal and unimaginative.
How is this even up for debate anymore?!? I mean the “alien” skull is part llama. Full stop. Forget the human bones and bean plant DNA. It’s unbelievable at this point.
But to make a broader point, I think it's interesting how often the concepts presented as evidence by Ufologists and associated figures like Jaime Maussan are prefigured or anticipated in fiction.
I recommend the book Abominable Science (Loxton and Prothero), which, although focusing on cryptozoology, has many examples of what things are "seen" and how they are described AFTER the critter has just appeared in movies or fiction stories. (I can't be more specific; I think one of my kids has swiped my copy!)
This is supposedly medical imaging of one of the "Peruvian mummy" "eggs"
From https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1702018060411093160.html, Clint Ehrlich.
(I strongly suspect that this is a CGI manipulation of existing medical/ veterinarian imagery.)
Same guy who wrote that Twitter thread and fell for it (Clint Erlich who has WashPost and Dateline credentials), less than a day (and THREE MILLION VIEWS) later retracted the lot. The retraction thread got 250K views.
But to make a broader point, I think it's interesting how often the concepts presented as evidence by Ufologists and associated figures like Jaime Maussan are prefigured or anticipated in fiction.
I'm reasonably convinced the embryo image was created to illustrate what an embryo might look like in the river rocks eggs, or perhaps to aid in the necessary pareidolia to see embryos in the indistinct red blobs.
Since they look as much like seahorses, to my eye, as they look like embryos, a bit of prompting is probably necessary...
I know shamefully little about the American cultures. Probably like many of us here, I was familiar with the Nazca lines.
A quick look at Wikipedia shows that the Nazca people were skilled craftsmen
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazca_culture, Wikipedia article- on the left, warrior with trophy head, right, lobster effigy.
(The lobster wouldn't be out of place in a contemporary children's cartoon, not sure about the warrior).
They were also skilled and practical engineers, building networks of underground aqueducts called puquios from around
500 AD;
...above the Cantalloc puquios near Nazca, the spiral paths lead to the aqueduct below https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puquios
Like other cultures who serve as the backdrop to ancient astronaut theories, it seems that the actual history and beliefs of the Nazca people is largely irrelevant to any discussion about the supposed "aliens" who they must have encountered.
As far as I know (which isn't much) the Nazca people didn't make representations of anything resembling the "alien" mummies,
although they made plenty of characterful representations of people and animals:
(the last figure is believed to be an orca).
Ms. Nazca, master ceramicist: "What shall I make today?"
Mr Nazca: "What about one of the little egg-laying people who came from the stars? Would that be interesting?"
Ms. Nazca: "Nah, they're so 460's AD.* And unhealthily skinny. I'll make a nicely-rounded person."
Mr. Nazca: "You're right, the star people are pretty boring. And your commitment to body positivity is commendable."
Ms. Nazca: "Ah, thanks love."
Mr. Nazca: "Talking of the star people, have you noticed they're copying our funeral rituals?"
Ms. Nazca: "They're so unoriginal. All this "Our civilisation is millennia old, we're so advanced", blah blah blah, and now this."
*
Similarly, the figures depicted in the Nazca lines don't indicate that the locals had much interest in three-fingered aliens
The monkey is 93 by 58 metres, the hummingbird 93 metres long. I've deliberately included the one humanoid figure, usually known as "the giant", but sometimes called "the spaceman" by some. It's 30 metres long and, unlike most of the Nazca figures, on a sloped surface. Is it likely to be a picture of one of the "aliens"? I don't think so.
(Wikipedia article, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazca_Lines).
Either the Nazca people (and/ or their successors, the Wari/ Huari culture) were incredibly uninquisitive, supremely unobservant or incapable of making representative art. None of these things seem to be true.
If they coexisted with intelligent egg-laying aliens, we'd know about it.
The problem: This screenshot from this video by Scientists Against Myths [7:48] is Josefina's x-ray, the hi-res photos of which can be downloaded from the Antropogenez link above. It shows some bones in each hand are upside-down on opposite sides of the body. While we could argue an alien might evolve upside-down phalanges compared to us, they would not plausibly be asymmetrical
That does not seem like the same "mummy". The one with the botched hands seem different from the one with the "eggs". Just compare the hip for example.
Yeah it seems in the new mummy they fixed the hand too What peer review is good for
How is this even up for debate anymore?!? I mean the “alien” skull is part llama. Full stop. Forget the human bones and bean plant DNA. It’s unbelievable at this point.
Not really, I have read the report done by the russian author who first claimed that is a llama skull and the paper is not conclusive. It does not claim it is a llama skull just theoretizes it and has counterarguments too. That is not a debunk by itself.
I am also 99% sure it is a fake but the llama theory did not debunk it. Actually, so far noone debunked the new mummies but I admit, showing fake mummies a few years ago is a really bad track record
That does not seem like the same "mummy". The one with the botched hands seem different from the one with the "eggs". Just compare the hip for example.
Yeah it seems in the new mummy they fixed the hand too What peer review is good for
That does not seem like the same "mummy". The one with the botched hands seem different from the one with the "eggs". Just compare the hip for example.
Yeah it seems in the new mummy they fixed the hand too What peer review is good for
There are two mummies with eggs inside - this one (Josefina) and Clara who was scanned on a livestream after the Mexican hearing. I've not seen close-ups of Clara's hands.
Josefina was determined in this paper (2021) by José de la Cruz Ríos López (who now apparently disowns the conclusions for no specified reason) to have a llama's skull based on it being exactly the right size, and having all the same internal and external features (with some parts thinned out or shaved off).
The “archaeological” find with an unknown form of “animal” was identified to have a head composed of a llama deteriorated braincase.
The Alien Project website deliberately obscures both Josefina's mangled fingers and the llama comparison - here they show the measurements but are comparing internal with external dimensions, as well as from a different angle, and the llama skull is not even cut down the saggital plane. This craftiness (as with hiding Josefina's hands from view) tells me they absolutely know it's a hoax. "They" being López who's credited with this graphic, along with the team generally.
Josefina's results were displayed and talked about at the Mexican hearing, so she is not considered a hoax by Maussan et al. But it was Clara who was wheeled out and unboxed. I have read or heard (can't find right now) that Josefina's eggs were cut open, so it appears she's been... dismantled in some fashion. Perhaps that's why they wheeled out Clara instead, despite her having broken-off digits.
Additionally, there are two little "male" mummies - Alberto and Mauricio (the latter boxed like Clara) as well as the headless seated one, Victoria, whose samples had some human DNA as well as sheep, cow, and 28% bean.
If independent scientists were permitted to access the mummies (I'm guessing that will never happen), samples could be taken from inside the body. I would like to know how they were constructed - and why so much bean? Maybe the bones were laid out in a block of soft wax, sprayed with glue, then the wax was melted off before the skeleton was bound with fake skin and then the rock coating. A sample from between the bones might show wax or other glue residue. There appear to be some vessels or muscles in the limbs, so we need to know if those are real. If so, perhaps existing mummies of babies were the starting point, repaired as required with (upside-down) bones.
This part is a "he said she said". According to the mexicans, they offered to pay the cost of groups of independent scientists. They contacted pretty highly regarded institutions. And got no positive answer, according to them. This might be just made up but I also believe that a renowned scientist does not want to deal with debunking fake aliens. So the jury is still out.
They could just send samples to anywhere. Would that solve anything? Even the field's most credible scientists like Garry Nolan says they would need years if not decades of hard work just to do a map of the genetics to draw a conclusion. Debunking the mummy with DNA is not that easy.
But we can't conclude anything from the dna data. We need actual scientists doing actual mapping instead of laymans typing GTAC into a database. What did this data debunk? Around half of the human DNA is found in plants. Most of it is dormant, an artifact of our historical progression. This data proved that DNA data is not known well enough to debunk a fake alien mummy. That is the conclusion here.
We know about these mummies for months now. How the hell are they not debunked? How the hell are scientists not laughing in the face of these scam artists?
I am not saying these are aliens. I am saying, if they are not then even I could debunk them if I get to access them. So?
It is the same mummy: Josefina. These are the photos sent to the Russian scientists at Antropogenez. The reason her hips look straight in the first one is because it's a skewed photograph of the x-ray hung on a lightboard.
This part is a "he said she said". According to the mexicans, they offered to pay the cost of groups of independent scientists. They contacted pretty highly regarded institutions. And got no positive answer, according to them. This might be just made up but I also believe that a renowned scientist does not want to deal with debunking fake aliens. So the jury is still out.
Korotkov, who was working with Maussan's team, asked the scientists at Antropogenez to look at the x-rays. He certainly did get a response, and did not like it, so he wrote them a one-line response saying the x-rays were inconclusive. They are absolutely conclusive that some fingerbones are upside down, a biological impossibility, therefore she's been pieced together.
Lopez wrote a paper with two Greek scientists which concluded her skull is a llama. Again, they did get a response. They just choose not to publicize it.
They could just send samples to anywhere. Would that solve anything? Even the field's most credible scientists like Garry Nolan says they would need years if not decades of hard work just to do a map of the genetics to draw a conclusion. Debunking the mummy with DNA is not that easy.
DNA analysis isn't actually necessary for this mummy, since she has clearly been pieced together from random bones. An alien should have zero human DNA. The similar mummy Victoria has some human DNA mixed with what is probably contamination from cow and sheep poo, random fungus and bacteria, and a hilarious amount of... bean.
We know about these mummies for months now. How the hell are they not debunked? How the hell are scientists not laughing in the face of these scam artists?
Because most scientists aren't interested in UFOs or aliens. Several scientists who were directly involved have laughed in the face of these scam artists, or done the polite version of that.
Well you mentioned that the only person who actually proposed and investigated the llama-skull hypothesis later disowned the conclusions. He was a russian "scientist", not sure how the greeks come in, I have not seen a paper by greek scientists regarding a llama skull.
To be more exact, he disowned the proposal, not the conclusion. He could not disown the conclusion because the study he published never concluded that it is a llama skull. Actually there are more counter arguments in the paper than pro-arguments. (AFAIK its about a llama brain cavity instead of an entire skull but even that needs two added bones to make the new shape and that would be easily debunked with MRI data which we supposedly have now).
I have not seen papers by greeks, if you find it please link me!
I don't really think this is a certainty. Apart from the fringe theories, panspermia is a commonly accepted possibility. We cannot assume this.
Victoria has some human DNA mixed with what is probably contamination from cow and sheep poo, random fungus and bacteria, and a hilarious amount of... bean.
I am sorry but that "database" of genetic markers is not really reliable. These "bean" and "cow" indications are basically statistical anomalies. The program tried to find the closest relative, just liek how the covid virus was linked to pangolins and snakes. Before bats. Totally useless assumptions. We know now that pangolins had nothing to do with it, they just have a somewhat similar attribution of certain markers, which is more common than it seems just because of the huge amount of a narrow GTAC code every living thing has.
They are absolutely conclusive that some fingerbones are upside down
I am following the topic but honestly I didn't notice. I can name like 2 people who actually got the DICOM files. They are obviously not the sceptics we trust so I disregarded them tbh.
But the actual scientific community did not even get phased by this news. Of course everyone immediately assumed they are hoaxes myself included but proving it is another thing.
There is an interesting anthorpological debate going on, and coincidentally about Peru. I am sure you seen pictures of ancient Peru locals with elongated heads. For a long time scientists assumed it was achieved by applying pressure to the skull in infancy. There are records about it too, so it was actually a thing back then.
Yet researchers claim to found a fetus in a pregnant mummy which has an elongated head. And it sparked a debate: isn't that achieved after birth? What if there were two humanoid (sapien) species living next to each other, one with elongated heads and one without and the surviving tribe tried to appear similar to the others? Who knows? Maybe the fetus is a genetic defect, maybe it disproves our history. When will we know? As soon as people stop talking about what they believe and start researching the topic. So far the oldschool anthropoligists does not even want to acknowledge it, because it would shatter their life's work. Young researchers are not joining the debate because it could kill your career. What are they doing? Leaving the topic to fringe youtube channels. Science, bitch!
Sure, one bone is vice versa. Does it prove that these are not aliens? No. Does it prove these are aliens? Even bigger NO. It only proves that one bone was either messed with, or we misunderstand the data.
If it was so easy to debunk an alien mummy even I could do that. But so far the only thing we proved that the bones were messed with. And in a place where the game tomb raider is a lifestyle, this is not really that big of a debunk we believe it is. Is the outer crystal-like layer really 1000 year old? Then our hoaxer died a millennia ago.
...or five. Not sure about what is going on out in the distal ends of the fingers, which sort of fade out in this image, but I make out roughly 6-7 un-reversed bones, 5 reversed. That's reasonably close to what you might expect by random chance, just inserting bones blindly with no thought or knowledge of which way they should go. The only thing seemingly missing is a case where chance led the same bone to be reversed in each hand. Perhaps that shows up in another of the "mummies?"
Also, while I'm not a professional anatomist or anything, those long bones in the leg both appear upside down, if they are even the correct bones.
Sure, one bone is vice versa. Does it prove that these are not aliens? No. Does it prove these are aliens? Even bigger NO. It only proves that one bone was either messed with, or we misunderstand the data.
If it was so easy to debunk an alien mummy even I could do that. But so far the only thing we proved that the bones were messed with. And in a place where the game tomb raider is a lifestyle, this is not really that big of a debunk we believe it is.
It's not just the upside-down phalanges. What passes for the knees and hand/wrist are made up from different bones and are asymmetrical. There is no apparent pelvis, at least not one with the appropriate sockets for the ball of the femur, nor is there any ball on whatever is passing for the femur, to rotate in resulting in a working hip joint. This thing literally can't walk:
But the actual scientific community did not even get phased by this news. Of course everyone immediately assumed they are hoaxes myself included but proving it is another thing.
There is no need for the scientific community to "prove" it's a hoax. It is the burden of those making the claim to "prove" this is an alien in a legitimate peer reviewed fashion.
My son and his wife have PhD's in Anthropology/Bio-Archeology. She is a CRM field archeologist, and he is an Anthro professor that teaches Osteology, the study of bones and particularly human ones. A quick glance by them showed this to be what it is, an assemblage of unrelated bones and not any sort of actual biological entity. Unless this represents some sort of funerary act, which NO ONE is claiming, they are not going to waste any more time on it.
The only real question, as noted, did one of the indigenous cultures from the Nazca area ever perform a reassemblage of bones like this for various reasons? If so, that should be in the literature. If this is a new discovery about the reassembling of bones, it should be described in a proper peer reviewed manner.
But that's not the claim being made so, it's much more likely that these mummies are exactly what they appear to be. The cobbled together equivalent of a circus side-show Gaff. It is not everybody else's responsibility to show these are fake when they are being presented by a known huckster like Maussan. Someone who has checkered past that includes the presentation of looted indigenous remains, including a young child, as a Roswell aliens for his pay-per-view shows. There is NOTHING scientific about Maussan and how he presents his claims and the few supposed scientist that help him out with these charades should be ashamed of themselves.
As soon as people stop talking about what they believe and start researching the topic. So far the oldschool anthropoligists does not even want to acknowledge it, because it would shatter their life's work. Young researchers are not joining the debate because it could kill your career. What are they doing? Leaving the topic to fringe youtube channels. Science, bitch!
This sounds like standard Graham Hancock speak. He can't provide proof of his ancient super civilization, not because there is no proof, but because the evil Anthropologists don't want to risk their funding.
Debunking would be great but these arguments are just indirect proofs.
I already admitted the hand bones seem mixed up. You know what that proves? The hand bones are mixed up.
When you tell me your family is an anthropologist I kinda wonder what is the point. Does this xray look human to them?
You claim this thing cannot "walk" but walking seems like a human or at least Earth-concept. Does that mean it cannot swim either? Or could this thing walk on a planet with 10th of the gravity of Earth? Hard to disprove something which we don't even fathom.
I understand that this thing has no human joints. It has joints like insects do. Have you seen a praying mantis walk? How can it do that without a hip?
I welcome discussion but debunking means PROVING what this is. Not disproving what it might not be.
Would prove that the hands, at least, are not actually mummified remains but are assembled by somebody. That sort of qualifies as "fake proven" to me. But I guess one could argue that the hands were faked but the rest of it is real. So looking at the rest of the body:
Do you also admit that some of the long bones are broken off to match the length of the bone used on the other side? Do you admit that the very terrestrial leg bones have also been inserted the wrong way up, or using the wrong bone? That the rib cage can't expand for breathing?
Maybe a quick summation of which parts of the mummies you agree are not genuine would be helpful, then we can at least skip arguing about a point where you already agree.
(I know that can sound accusatory or snarky typed out with no vocal or facial cues -- I'm not being all "gothcha-y," rather now that I know that you understand the hand bones are assembled to make the hand, with many bones reversed, I'm trying to find out which other issues with the mummies you understand are just as wrong.)
Would prove that the hands, at least, are not actually mummified remains but are assembled by somebody. That sort of qualifies as "fake proven" to me. But I guess one could argue that the hands were faked but the rest of it is real. So looking at the rest of the body:
Keep in mind that I believe no sane person should believe this might be an alien. I am not talking about my assumptions here, but trying to stick to facts, like I would convince a believer. We need to consider their views.
We could argue if what you said is a proof or not but there is no point. Because it is not. The question is: Did the mummy really "calcify" 1000 years ago? Because then we can rule out modern tampering. Maussan is not a crook or hoaxer, just naive.
If this is a 1000 year old mixup of bones then it would mean the mummy was tampered with when it was buried. And that might have a normal explanation.
One of my friends father died in an accident. The accident was really bad. Yet in the casket he looked normal. You know why? Because the people at the funeral home put him together.
Do you also admit that some of the long bones are broken off to match the length of the bone used on the other side? Do you admit that the very terrestrial leg bones have also been inserted the wrong way up, or using the wrong bone? That the rib cage can't expand for breathing?
They also claim these very terrestrial bones are like bird bones, being hollow. That would be really easy to debunk. Was that debunked? I mean they claim these are hollow bones, you claim they are human (child?) bones. This would be the fastest debunk in history, and we still argue after months. This is not right. This is not how science should deal with this, especially if this is a fake, a hoax.
Human breathing, right? Can you tell me how insects breathe? How a fish breathes? How can they breathe without expanding?
Also, an accordion like movement would allow human-like breathing too.
You are still trying to debunk that this mummy is a human.
Maybe a quick summation of which arts of the mummies you agree are not genuine would be helpful, then we can at least skip arguing about a point where you already agree.
I have no clue. I literally never seen an alien. I have no clue what part of it is curious and what part is illogical. All I know is that people already claim it is debunked because of a llama skull. And a few funny bones.
What peer review is good for 
