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  1. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Conspiracy theorists point to the lack of utilization of Life Star helicopters at the Sandy Hook school shooting as evidence that something was wrong - either that people were negligent, or in the extreme versions of the theory that the entire thing was faked, and the fakers forgot to include the helicopters.

    http://www.harthosp.org/LifeStar/default.aspx
    Why was it not used at Sandy Hook? Basically because it was much more sensible to transport people in an ambulance. There were actually not very many injured. The injured people were transported by ambulance to Danbury Hospital. Just 11.4 miles away by road, straight down a freeway, accessible in less than 14 minutes.

    [​IMG]

    Ambulances were already there. Using an ambulance minimizes the movement of the patient. Calling for a helicopter would take more time. The ambulance was quicker and safer

    But what's the fastest a helicopter could have got there? In an ideal situation a Life Star helicopter can take off within a minute of the call, and travels at 155mph. The straight line distance from the Danbury helicopter pad to the Sandy Hook playing field is 8.7 miles. Helicopters do not magically get to top speed. It takes about a minute each end for takeoff and acceleration (and the reverse landing). So that's

    • 1 Minute until takeoff
    • 1 min takeoff and acceleration
    • 3 min 22 sec travel
    • 1 min landing (optimistically)
    • 2 minutes Loading (takes more time as patient needs moving across the field, and loading is harder than into an ambulance).
    • 1 min take off and acc
    • 3 min 22 seconds travel
    • 1 min landing
    • 1 minute unloading to the door (landing pad is some distance from the hospital.
    Total = 14 minute 22 seconds. In an absolutely ideal case. Far better to just use an ambulance and get there in the same time or less. An ambulance has the added benefit of a much wider range of medical equipment being available.

    Here's a video of a Life Star helicopter landing in an actual emergency at a school. It takes over a minute from arriving to actually settling on the ground.



    When would you use a helicopter? When the distance is far enough that the speed of the helicopter would make a significant difference. This is not the case here.

    And this assumes a best case scenario, where a helicopter was already in Danbury, and ready to go. The Life Star helicopters are actually based in Hartford, 38 miles away. Meaning they would take a minimum of 15 minutes to arrive, and probably more like 20.
    [​IMG]

    And in a similar previous shooting, the helicopters were not used, even though they were closer and standing by, and even though there were people who were critically injured, and even though there was a clear landing site right outside the doors of the Hartford Distributors, it was simply quicker to use the ambulance. Just like at Sandy Hook.

    http://www.journalinquirer.com/page...cle_8b69d3e2-ddbd-54b8-a8fc-629330dfbe87.html
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2014
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  2. Keith Johnson

    Keith Johnson New Member

    I don't think Life Star helicopters are on standby in Danbury. It's my understanding that the nearest Life Star is located in Hartford, which is 48 miles from Newtown. Besides, there are a lot of drawbacks to having helicopters at active crime scenes. According to Captain James Carmody, Port Huron City Police, Port Huron, Michigan, "Something most schools would never think of is to call the local Federal Aviation Authority. Yet, as soon as the news media learn of a disaster they send their helicopters and it’s the last thing you’ll need to gain control of the situation. The noise factor alone makes it difficult for people to hear on the ground."
    The only one raising this question is Wolfgang Halbig, a dubious source if there ever was one. The Sandy Hookers have seized upon him as their expert because he claims to be a "retired Florida State Trooper." But even by his own admission, he only served as a trooper from 1974 to 1977 before taking on a job as a volleyball coach at a local high school. A "Florida State Trooper" is nothing more than a traffic cop. Besides, law enforcement protocols have drastically changed over the last 37 years.
     
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  3. Keith Johnson

    Keith Johnson New Member

    Check out this link:
    http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/2010-08/04/content_11089161.htm
    In 2010, Omar Thornton killed 9 people at a beer distribution plant in Hartford, CT.
    According to the article:
    So much for Halbig's claim that Life Star helicopters are always dispatched in active shooter scenarios.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 25, 2014
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  4. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    I've updated the post to note this. Look like it's actually 38 miles, which would take around 15 minutes at 155mph, best case. Ambulance to Danbury makes more sense.

    Thanks again, added this to the OP.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2014
  5. Mike Fl

    Mike Fl New Member

    Hi, Mick. The directions/map are of the Monroe address for Sandy Hook Elementary and not 12 Dickinson Dr, Sandy Hook, CT 06482.
     
  6. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    The address listed there is wrong, but the map, distances and distances are correct, must be a bug in Google Maps. You can zoom in and see the start point is actually the school on Dickenson Drive:
    [​IMG]

    Since everything else is correct, I'll remove that text from the image to avoid confusion.
     
  7. RavenWolf 333

    RavenWolf 333 New Member

    But trips for PATIENTS is not Plausible but I am a former Firefighter/Medic and EMS Instructor and it IS reasonable to expect that with THAT many children's lives, that the helicopter would have been expected to transport ALS to the scene... so a Flight Doc would have been flown OUT to provide rapid assessment and intervention to the critical patients that were even too unstable to transport 11 miles. Considering that Most Doctors I personally know would have volunteered IMMEDIATELY to be flown in to give even the SLIGHTEST ray of Hope to ANY child or victims of heinous crimes!! It goes against HEALER mentality.
     
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  8. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Senior Member

    Wouldn't the medical response crews already there fulfil that role? Using a helicopter to fly a doctor there just seems ridiculously complicated.
    I don't think your opinion is really a reason to think that helicopters were deliberately not used because they wanted the casualties to die or that the whole thing was faked.
    Can you provide examples of flight docs being flown out to other similar incidents in similar locations?
     
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  9. Sarcastro

    Sarcastro Member

    Wouldn't doctors stay at the hospital to be ready for the wave of incoming casualties? If they did go out to the scene, wouldn't they just hitch a ride with an ambulance or drive themselves since it takes the same time as a helicopter?
     
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  10. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    By that logic there would be a doctor in every ambulance that responds to a car crash. It simply isn't the way it works. Paramedics stabilize, assess, and transport. Doctors work best in hospital where they have facilities. While it's certainly a possibility that a doctor might need to go on site sometimes, it's certainly not standard practice, and it's not a reason to be suspicious.
     
  11. Melbury's Brick

    Melbury's Brick Active Member

    http://www.harthosp.org/lifestar/FlightCrew/default.aspx

    Sounds like they have everything they need.
    I would think the main purpose of air ambulances is to access isolated places . When they are required because of severity of casualty in a "regular" location it's more likely they would be called by road ambulance paramedics already at the scene. It must have been quite clear that a chopper could offer no extra practical help at SH.




     
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  12. Melbury's Brick

    Melbury's Brick Active Member

    Further to this, Life Star's FAQs throw some light on the fact that a helicopter will not attend where death has been presumed. Although this relates to cardiac arrest patients, it seems logical that extreme trauma would have the same response.

    http://www.harthosp.org/lifestar/FAQs/default.aspx


     
  13. Kerensa

    Kerensa Closed Account

    3 air ambulances were deployed to Franklin High after the mass-stabbing. There is a MedExpress 6 miles from the school, and Childrens Hospital (where some victims were taken) is 17 miles. Clearly the choppers were there not because their use was guaranteed, but because a mass incident of all things justifies (I would say demands) the deployment of this type of resource as a just-in-case.

    What people have to remember is that it was many, many hours before all surviving children from Sandy Hook School were accounted for. There was no way of knowing whether or not injured children remained hiding in the building (as some staff did for hours). Reunification w/parents was a protracted nightmare, with police trying to connect parents to children late into the afternoon. I.e. injured could have been anywhere. It seems to me that the Pennsylvania case is more logical (choppers were deployed) and Newtown is an outlier, under the circumstances.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2014
  14. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    No it wasn't.

    And how do you know LifeStar wasn't called? and then cancelled?
    The reason the cop had to take the child TO the ambulance (waiting at the Firehouse) in his SUV is because it was an active shooter situation, the helicopter wouldn't have been allowed to land at that time anyway.
     
  15. Kerensa

    Kerensa Closed Account

    I absolutely agree choppers would not have been there in time for the first vics coming out, and that the first children removed by SUV were taken that way due to ambulances being at staging (for safety). At least one police report, in fact, states the SUV took those particular two children straight to Danbury. But there were just over 450 children in school that morning, and they were not accounted for for a long time; choppers should have been on scene.

    I don't quite understand your statement on family reunification; it was a big problem 12/14. Police audio indicates officers working into the afternoon to locate parents who in turn are at various city buildings trying to locate their children. Additionally, at least one school safety conference (it was called something along the lines of Sandy Hook: Lessons Learned) cited family reunification as being a problem that day.

    This isn't the report I was thinking of, but alludes to other problematic aspects of reunification that morning:http://web3.esd112.org/docs/default-source/risk-management-matters/spring-2013.pdf?sfvrsn=0
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2014
  16. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    being reunited with your parents/guardians is a lot different then being unaccounted for. That's one of the points of firedrills. Teachers account for their kids and stay with them. Which was done 12/14 as well. It was an elementary school, kids aren't hiding in the boys room or out in t he parking lot sneaking cigarettes
     
  17. Kerensa

    Kerensa Closed Account

    The problem is that almost from the first moment of shooting, children scattered from the school--and kept scattering. The CT State Police Sandy Hook report indicates troopers combing the neighborhoods looking for children who were thought to be at area houses, businesses, a daycare, and other locations. Some parents picked up children who were not theirs and drove off; other parents came almost immediately to the school parking lot/FD parking lot and left with their children; other kids went into the woods; still others were home sick but no one knew because attendance had not been taken (according to one staff interview, it was not taken because there was not time, i.e. the shooting started before attendance reports had been turned in and filed). So the problem wasn't even just the scattered children, it was knowing who was there to scatter in the first place. There were 458 children enrolled as of 12/14/12. Don't get me wrong--I'm not singling out Sandy Hook. Reunification is almost always a challenge during an emergency involving this many people. The Franklin High stabbing reunification was problematic, too, with some parents intercepting their children at the temporary holding area at the elem school, before the children were able to be transported to the official reunification area at the middle school.

    Again, the reason this ties to the OP is that with so many children unaccounted for, and clearly able to be hidden inside the school (as at least two staff were, during four SWAT sweeps), there could have been any number of injured children yet to be transported.

    Here is a podcast interview with a Red Cross worker who describes the Sandy Hook reunification a bit--relevant part is at 37:52. https://archive.org/details/RedCrossVolunteerNancyYoungReturnsFromNewtownHearHerStory

    The reason for choppers in an MCI is not just to transport to the nearest hospital; it is quite specifically to provide the option of transporting to farther-flung facilities in the event the local hospital becomes overwhelmed. For whatever reason, teacher Deb Pisani was actually taken to Bridgeport.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2014
  18. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    the police report also explains how the initial sweeps were conducted. and classrooms checked BEFORE evacuation. Theres a committee indexing the report so I'm going to wait for them to finish before digging through it again to provide you the links now. sorry.
     
  19. NoParty

    NoParty Senior Member

    Okay, I'm lost here: how is a situation in which you know you have ~20 wounded people in any way comparable to what authorities found in Sandy Hook?
     
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  20. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

     
  21. Melbury's Brick

    Melbury's Brick Active Member

    Do you have a link that confirms when the choppers were called at Franklin High? Were they were summoned before or after the "ground crews" had triaged patients?

    Clearly these are two different situations with victims presumed dead at Sandy Hook and victims with serious injuries needing transportation at Franklin High. Who's to say that, had there been critically injured survivors at SH the choppers would not have beeen called (even though, as has already been pointed out, road ambulances could make the journey to hospital as, if not more, quickly.) Either way, the decision not to have them attend at Sandy Hook was entirely correct because they would have served no purpose and their non attendance is in no way suggestive of nefarious behaviour, which is the point of this thread.

    (All of this is to assume that the helicopters concerned were available at that precise moment anyway.)
     
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  22. Kerensa

    Kerensa Closed Account

    As far as I know, the 3 choppers at Franklin High were never used - i.e. they were there in case they were needed, not because they were guaranteed to be needed. With hundreds of living children unaccounted for, are we saying that if a chopper had been deployed to Sandy Hook School, people would be discussing, today, how unnecessary and wrong that was? My only point is that Sandy Hook is not a clear cut example of a situation which absolutely required no chopper. Further, the road was almost instantly gridlocked by parents and state police vehicles. Deb Pisani waited 1.5 hours for transport; they tried repeatedly but could not even get the quad through to her. Finally, they hand-pushed a gurney all the way down Dickenson and then all the way back up Dickenson. During this entire time--and for at least another hour--two staff were hiding inside the school and not found, despite SWAT sweeps. Point being, ambulances had zero access to the scene, and those staff members (and any number of other victims) could have been bleeding and in need of transport. Pisani's eventual transport to Bridgeport rather than Danbury also introduces the apparent need for victims to be transported to alternate facilities (possibly because Danbury received a threat). I.e. if you don't deploy a chopper in this situation, when on earth do you deploy it? There was a very good landing spot right next to the school (ball field); should injured have been found inside the school in the coming hours, this would have been the best (and likely only) way of transporting them. It is not true that after the school was cleared, ambulances remained at staging for safety; they remained at staging because they were unable to access the scene.
     
  23. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    Connecticut only HAS two choppers so that's amazing that city (Franklin High) has 3 choppers there in the city. Other than that nothing you wrote here is true.
     
  24. Kerensa

    Kerensa Closed Account

    I heard that four were requested; but I don't know what time. I'll ck the police audio. Also, it now looks as if at least one patient may have been transported by chopper.

    I, too, was surprised at the number of choppers on standby at the school; haven't seen a picture like that in a while.

    I don't understand what you mean about nothing else being true; it's all in the police audio, and the Sandy Hook Final Report (re the gridlock, search for missing children, probs w/reunification etc.)
     
  25. NoParty

    NoParty Senior Member

    Okay, I'm still kind of trying to find your point.
    Since you're arguing that this is not a "clear cut example"…are you simultaneously saying that
    there is absolute clarity that a helicopter would've been useful?

    Also, your "Deb Pisani" example is new to me. Are you saying ambulances could not get in
    or out of the school? When I google "Deb Pisani" I'm just getting mostly crazy conspiracy sources…
    can you link to a legitimate source that confirms that somehow traffic kept a "Deb Pisani"
    from getting treatment for 90 minutes, please?

    And, again, I'd request your point. Others say it wouldn't have made sense to call a helicopter.
    You seem to be arguing that it absolutely would have. If you were correct, would that mean anything?
     
  26. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    no it's not. certainly not in the way you are presenting it. youre free to link what you feel shows your claims (file numbers etc).

    they may have searched houses/buildings (for children and) additional shooters to be on the safe side, but they didn't find any because no children scattered. they remained together, the woman who took some of the kids to the police station (forget her name now) has it all in her statement. like I said I don't want to search now since the indexed version is being worked on.

    The road was blocked at the entrances to prohibit additional non emergency vehicles from entering, but emergency personnel were coming and going fine. there are no photos of a 'blocked' road that restricted Riverside at all. again post links of your sources if I'm wrong.
     
  27. Kerensa

    Kerensa Closed Account

    Yes, children scattered. CT State Police troopers filed reports detailing their search for missing children. They did not remain together. Some of the children who scattered had no adults remaining who were in charge of their class specifically (Soto's children).

    Emergency personnel were not coming and going fine. There are multiple calls in the police audio, both Newtown and CSP, for state troopers to move their vehicles specifically to allow emergency vehicles into the scene. The exchanges are quite terse, and specific license plates are read over the air in the (ultimately futile) attempt to get CSP troopers to move the most problematic vehicles.

    There are multiple photos of Dickenson gridlocked; there are even photos of EMTs hand-pushing gurneys to the scene due to the road blockage. The gridlock is referenced in the police audio as well as in the police reports.

    Police audio and transcripts available here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/rrqout7dpwrb1gf/M8zfu9VJ7A

    CSP Final Report document 00018286, CSP David R. Wagner's statement, describes officers looking for children in the nearby daycare and residences, for example.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2014
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  28. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    Yes Sotos kids left the building but they stayed together.

    I only see 1 photo here that shows the cop car (with cop inside) would have to move back IF the ambulance wanted to get out (PS theres a road behind the red building that drops out on a clear clear road also. AND this photo was taken much later than the incident, as you can see from all the cars and parents there. The fire trucks have been moved out of the building etc. By that time they knew there were no more injured.

    its a nice link except I don't know what file you want us in and whats the time stamps on the audio you want us to hear? PS the road you are seeing here is Riverside. Dickenson is the school driveway.

    sh11.

    still what your point regarding Lifestar isn't clear.
     
  29. Kerensa

    Kerensa Closed Account

    Soto's kids didn't stay together; they split into two groups: the group that the bus driver took to Rosen's house, and the group that kept running and was picked up by Gogliettino in a van and taken to NPD.

    The police/EMS audio has been available for a year and a half now, and the 911 call audio, and final report, for quite some time. Until people have taken the time to review the information, it's hard to have a conversation based on the known facts.

    Unless police are lying, the road was blocked, and was blocked early, and remained blocked. It was blocked so thoroughly that 1.5 hours after police arrived, a victim remaining on scene had to be extracted by hand pushed gurney, after repeated, failed attempts to clear the road and get a small ATV down to her. Police plead repeatedly for cars to be moved, to no avail. Multiple reviews of the Sandy Hook response refer to the road blockage; that blockage is generally blamed on having a parent staging area too close to the scene.

    The point of all this is not to impune Sandy Hook first responders; it is to save lives in the future by addressing problems discovered during the SH response, learn from them, and adjust policy/procedures accordingly.

    Claiming there was no problem endangers lives. Not even SH responders claim there were no problems. There are always problems, and it is always possible to learn from them, adjust, and improve. I don't understand this odd insistence on misrepresenting the facts of Sandy Hook.

    The road was blocked almost instantly, and reunification was a big problem. These are facts.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2014
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  30. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    gogliettino was the name? her report (ill look maybe tomorrow) states the children were all together near the firehouse. she was on riverside road. some children got in her car, but some children kept going. the trained 'firedrill' protocol is to go to the firehouse until your parents come get you. they went to the side of the firehouse (they are 6 year olds) which is where gene rosen found them in his driveway.

    those children were accounted for quickly. reunification has nothing to do with "missing children". all teachers had all their kids. sotos kids were either at the police station with gogliettino or at gene rosen's who called their parents then brought them to the firehouse.

    All children were brought inside the firehouse after evacuation for their protection. it was an active shooter situation. which is why parents were asked to wait before coming to get them. (attached photo is an earlier practice evacuation drill for Sandy Hook Elementary)

    Dickenson briefly became blocked due to swat etc rapidly parking to search for the "second gunman".
    Riverside was blocked by police from new vehicles/parents entering the road.

    you keep saying the teacher from room2 with the minor foot wound was 'blocked'. I have never seen any evidence of this and you still haven't presented it. There are multiple ways to access the area. as you can see on the map and I didn't include "off roading" ways to get in or out.

    While your concern for SH residents is lovely, I think they have their new plan protocols pretty worked out. No? If the residents of Sandy Hook are concerned they will deal with it. If their questions and concerns aren't being addressed they would have gone public by now. no?

    You complain a copter wasn't standing by for hours with no known injuries and yet whine about a minor foot wound not using up an ambulance for hospital travel?

    No children were found to be "missing" or unaccounted for.
    Noone was put in harms way by lack of EMTs or transport.
    Your insistence of thinking Sandy Hook's safety protocols are any of your business is out of line. The town folk have it covered. They certainly don't need your help working things out.

    drill.

    shmapedit.
     
  31. NoParty

    NoParty Senior Member

    Okay, I keep asking for a point.
    None of my specific questions in post #25 have been answered.
    A gigantic dropbox file with no specifics is offered instead of anything useful
    (kind of like a junior high student saying of a source: "Oh, it's somewhere in that stack of books over there...really.")

    Kerensa, I'm not one to endlessly chase ghosts...if you have something to say...and will address specifics (like in #25) you still have my ear.
    But I can't go any further down this road if you aren't going to ever get to your point...

    p.s. ooops...I may've accidentally stumbled over the never spoken point...

    Screen Shot 2014-04-12 at 12.05.13 AM.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2014
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  32. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Senior Member

    Are you saying that the fact a helicopter wasn't used or that access was restricted indicate a fake emergency or deliberate intent to worsen casualties,
    OR are you just saying they could have done a better job and the situation was not as well managed as it could have been?
    Because the claim about the lack of helicopter dispatch is used as evidence that the event was deliberately staged. Do you support this?
     
  33. Kerensa

    Kerensa Closed Account

    I realize the Dropbox folder is time-consuming to navigate--I'll post a few relevant links. The point of shining the light on weak spots in any emergency response isn't to impune the responders, but to save lives in future. Undoubtedly, lives at Sandy Hook were saved due to lessons learned from Columbine and that community's exhaustive work getting documents to the public (roughly 30,000, mostly unredacted). And in fact a major change in response strategy, citing Sandy Hook as a specific example, has been proposed the past summer; in short it involves sending EMTs in much earlier, even when the scene is warm, as well as training police in hemorrhage control. The clear implication is that the number of lives lost due to patients bleeding out while police are chasing the shooter can no longer be justified. Until now, police have been required to literally ignore all wounded until the shooter is down; that will now change, if the response to the summer conference is any indication.

    I think certainly the issue of air ambulances will also be part of the conversation, and I agree with Deirdre that having only two units for the entire state of CT may well have been a factor on 12/14. With mass shootings ever more common, it seems, states will likely need to spend more money on evacuation resources. While I've been open to many possibilities regarding Sandy Hook, including some wackier ones (I shouldn't use judgemental shorthand, but...), my primary interest is in ensuring the next Sandy Hook results in fewer or hopefully zero lives lost. This can only be done by taking the Columbine approach to the evidence, which is to say examining it thoroughly and honestly.

    The simple fact that public opinion here seems to be that, for example, the road was not blocked and reunification went smoothly, is really troubling, because the Sandy Hook Final Report, as well as independent reviews, have made it very clear that the opposite is true. It's incredibly relevant to our own communities, because the reason parents flooded the scene so quickly and blocked exits was due to relatively new technologies such as text alerts from the school system, a newish factor that must be considered when planning emergency response.

    The significant change in thinking as to when to send in EMTs came out of the Hartford Consensus; there has also been a Hartford Consensus II, now. Very worth the read if you're interested in the subject: http://bulletin.facs.org/2013/09/hartford-consensus-ii/
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2014
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  34. Kerensa

    Kerensa Closed Account

    The police/EMT audio transcript is probably the best place to start - the spreadsheet is titled "Sandy Hook Timeline & Transcript." It is one of just a few files in the main Dropbox folder, so should be easy to spot: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/rrqout7dpwrb1gf/M8zfu9VJ7A

    Each transmission cites an audio file, if you prefer to listen to the audio yourself.

    It is the Newtown Area Fire & Police audio which I have found most helpful, and the transcription to date has concentrated mostly on that agency. This is the Newtown audio from 12/14: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/10fd7stmcxh3a46/Vs4CvIKMYy

    Looking at the transcript (or listening to the audio), for example, you can see that at 10:30 a.m. dispatch calls the unit in charge at the firehouse (404) to let them know four missing students are at the PD, and will be taken back to the firehouse:

    10:30:55 Dispatcher Nute: "Alright, I have four individuals coming back to the place in the meeting room; gather their information, phone numbers and names if you can; refer them to me. (Newtown Fire & Police 201212140913-607467-7623)

    Until this point, the scene commander was unaware why these children were missing, or even if they were missing. Also problematic is the fact that Gogliettino, a parent who picked up the children, states in her 911 call that she has picked up five children; it's unclear what transpired with the 5th child, or whether she counted wrong, etc.

    These four or five children could have been hiding inside the school gravely injured, as far as the scene commander knew; however, the road is fully blocked, as evidenced by 408's transmission a minute earlier:

    10:29:43 408: "Johnny, I can't get the quad up here, the road's blocked too much--sorry." (Newtown Fire & Police 201212140913-607467-7623)

    If you follow the full conversation, they have been trying to use a quadrunner to extract wounded from the scene, because the road is blocked too much for ambulances to get in; however, not even the quad can get in. Eventually, they transport Deb Pisani by hand-pushing a gurney in (see transmissions beginning at 11:09).

    The point in short is that not all living children have been accounted for, and had they been injured inside the school, it would have been as difficult to transport them as it was to transport Ms. Pisani (who was not transported until 11:15-ish, over 90 minutes after she'd been shot).

    While she did require surgery, her injury was not life-threatening; what if it had been otherwise? What if the ladies hiding in the office during four SWAT sweeps had been seriously injured? What if the nine kids who ran from Room 10 i.e. were missing until at least 10:30 were inside the school, hiding, and injured? Rosen didn't appear to call police for some reason, and it's not known exactly when or how his group made it back to the FD.

    It's completely understandable that accountability is difficult under these circumstances, and that roads can become blocked. What's less understandable is taking the position that "this never happened." I don't understand what purpose that serves, except to cloud the real issue which is that emergency response must take into account the effects of early parent notification, reunification must be better handled, and hemorrhage control must be made paramount.

    At least two of these factors may be relevant to helicopter use, i.e. extraction by other means when the road is blocked, and how quickly the hemorrhaging patient is transferred from the first responder (likely a police officer) to an equipped vehicle (in this case, a chopper).

    I'm not a fan of chipping and the like, but the difficulty of reunification almost makes me start thinking about security bracelets for kids. I'd like to think there are other ways, though.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2014
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  35. Kerensa

    Kerensa Closed Account

    Here are several documents citing lessons learned from Sandy Hook, mentioning reunification challenges and/or road blockage, as well as changes in thinking due to some SHS teachers' decision to send their kids running instead of sheltering in place. The latter has resulted in a new strategy, for example, called "Run, Hide, Fight," which gives the teacher the option of choosing which strategy to use in a particular situation:

    http://web3.esd112.org/docs/default-source/risk-management-matters/spring-2013.pdf?sfvrsn=0

    http://www.schoolsecurity.org/2013/12/10-lessons-learned-from-the-sandy-hook-school-shootings/

    This one's new to me:

    "Additionally, schools now have predesignated parent-student "reunification centers" to prevent parents from showing up at the scene and interfering with law enforcement, as was the case in Sandy Hook, Trump said."

    http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/14/us/colorado-school-shooting-response/
     
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  36. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Drifting off topic here. Please keep to the topic of why Lifestar helicopters were not deployed, or start a new thread.

    This is a debunking site, not a "how to make school security better" site.
     
  37. Kerensa

    Kerensa Closed Account

    Understood. With no disrespect intended to the OP, it seems to me the issue of whether Lifestar should have been deployed is not clear. One reason it has been hard to discuss is that people seem generally unaware of the road blockage and reunification issues. I cited the above school security documents because they specifically reference these two problems as having been a big issue at Sandy Hook, i.e. show that I'm not making this up out of thin air. It's relevant (imo) in that the deployment of the air ambulance would possibly be affected by 1) ground ambulances being blocked from the scene, as well as 2) uncertainty as to number of additional critically wounded.

    There is audio somewhere from that day of a pilot saying he was going to need 45 minutes to become airborne; I have to comb through the files and see if it was related to the Sandy Hook response or not. I believe it was from a Bridgeport transmission.
     
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  38. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    Noone is taking any such position.

    If the children were injured inside the school the police would have found them (certainly by 10:30!). If anyone was injured outside the school the police would have found them, hence the exterior searches.

    You're implying negligence by repeatedly using the term "missing children" when they were never missing. You're accusing negligence by implying police and emergency personnel in Connecticut and around the country are ignoring the lessons learned at Newtown.


    The OP explains why Lifestar helicopter wasn't there, even though as I linked police DID call for everything to be sent. As I showed you there are multiple avenues to remove people and get them to hospital, which would have happened if there was an actual ongoing emergency situation.

    PS you don't need a quad to get a woman with a foot wound through a blocked driveway, there were DOZENS of big strong men that could have just carried her if need be. They didn't because it obviously wasn't an emergency.

    Yes all towns should review their procedures and learn. all police officers should be given medical training as they are in CT.
    but not having Lifestar sitting in a field for hours (in this particular situation) was the right decision in my opinion.
     
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  39. Kerensa

    Kerensa Closed Account

    Police did not find the two staff members hiding in a school office closet until 1:15 p.m., almost four hours into the event:

    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minutes-reports-tragedy-in-newtown/

    In looking at the scene photos, it's clear there were many, many places children could have been hiding (the boiler room area especially) and while we'd like to think LE sweeps would find them quickly, the two staff members' experience shows that it's not always a guarantee.

    Put bluntly, it was at least 1:15 p.m. before one can begin to say the school had been cleared of all students and staff. Police audio indicates officers trying to help parents find their children as late as 1:30 p.m.. There was confusion as to which building was going to be used for reunification--some parents were told to go to town hall. Until all parents and children had been reunited, there was absolutely no way of knowing whether students were accounted for. Even then it couldn't be know for certain, because attendance had not been taken--there was nothing to tell scene commanders, for example, who was out sick, who was on vacation, who had dropped out of school--these documents took police a long time to find, consult, sort out, make phone calls, and so on.

    Best practice for patient removal is 1) ambulance 2) quad or other runner 3) gurney 4) big strong men ;) I agree her injuries didn't appear life-threatening; however the reason they waited so long to remove her was almost certainly because they wanted to go with #1 or at least #2. In the end, they went with #3. Patient transport issues are laden with lawsuit potential, and EMTs are justifiably cautious about clumsy extractions.

    I'm not implying negligence--life happens. But of course it's important to learn whether anything went wrong or could have been done better, to include whether or not LifeStar should have been deployed. I'm not saying LifeStar absolutely should have been deployed, I'm saying that it seems surprising that in this of all situations, they wouldn't have been. LifeStar is routinely deployed to serious auto accidents in CT, and presumably that means it has a decently-short launch time in general.
     
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  40. WeedWhacker

    WeedWhacker Senior Member

    It's interesting how, in this "Age of the Internet", what used to be termed "Monday morning quarterbacking" (or, more commonly, "hindsight") has evolved into full-blown "conspiracy theories" that surround just about any incident of note.

    The common use of the Internet being only, approximately(?) two decades so far (had this conversation with a young lady at SuperCuts yesterday...)....20 years is just less than one Human generation, usually. Now, it's 2014. 20 years ago, it was 1994. I was using AOL, then. On a dial-up modem. There were no such things as "SmartPhones", aka iPhones, Android, etc. I did have a cell-phone (even a car phone, installed in my Lexus), but that's all it did...make phone calls.

    We might need to step back and contemplate the advances of technology, and how better to integrate them into the Human experience, moving forward.
     
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