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  1. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Cases of Alzheimer's are on the rise. The Alzheimer's associations says:

    [EX=]The number of Americans with Alzheimer’s and other dementias is increasing every year because of the steady growth in the older
    . This number will continue to increase and escalate rapidly in the coming years as the baby boom generation ages.[/EX]

    So there's more old people, so more Alzheimer's. Also, as we make strides in other causes of deaths, like heart disease and cancer, the less people die of those, and more people die of Alzheimer's for which there are no good treatments.

    Some people have suggested that water fluoridation might be linked to Alzheimer's. Tehy generally fail to realize that water fluoridation is a local thing, and many communities do NOT have water fluoridation. Look at the distribution here:


    Note that California has under 50% of its residents with fluoridated water. Texas has over 75%. So if fluoride was related, you'd expect to find higher rates of Alzheimer's in Texas.

    From the Alzheimer's association statewide figures.

    State Population Cases Deaths Cases/1000 pop Death/1000 pop
    CA 37691000 480000 8497 12.7 0.225
    TX 25674000 340000 4814 13.2 0.187

    So despite having a 50% higher rate of fluoridation, Texas has only a slightly higher ratio of cases of Alzheimers as California, and a MUCH lower ratio of deaths. The difference most likely being to age demographics.

    This lack of correlation of fluoridation with cases of Alzheimers indicates is not a significant factor.
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
  2. Unregistered

    Unregistered Guest

    Just to point something out, you can't correlate Alzheimer's with communities that do or do not fluoridate because packaged and processed foods, soft drinks, juices, etc. are shipped all over the nation. If they are manufactured at a plant where the water is fluoridated, then those products are also fluoridated so that even people living in unfluoridated communities are still ingesting measurable quantities of fluoride. Furthermore, you are comparing Califormia and Texas, both of which have substantial fluoridation. Even though California has less fluoridation than Texas, it may be that the lesser amount is still enough to set the stage for Alzheimer's, i.e., you've reached the saturation point for Alzheimer's incidence and adding even more fluoride in Texas won't increase the incidence any more. A more interesting correlation would be if we could see a difference in incidence between fluoridated countries and other Western countries that have never fluroidated...
  3. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    But there's still a significant difference between California and Texas. Texas has about twice as much water fluoridation. If there was any connection, then it would show up in the incidence rates.

    You can't claim there is a tipping point, as fluoridation is either on or off when it comes to the water supply. California does not have less fluoride, it has less people who get fluoridated water. Hence if fluoridated water had any effect on Alzheimer's, then it would should up in the statistics.
  4. Unregistered

    Unregistered Guest

    Not everyone gets Alzheimer's, and if fluoridation is linked to Alzheminer's, then still not everyone who consumes fluoride will get Alzheimer's either. There is a genetic predisposition to developing Alzheimer's, and what I'm saying is that we may have already tapped that predisposed population. Also, just because there are less fluoridated communities in California does not mean that people in California are exposed to less than the possible tipping point of fluoride. Some communities may get less total exposure to fluoride but they are still not fluoride-free since it is in all processed and packaged foods distrbuted across the nation, not to mention toothpastes, mouthwashes, etc. For the past 60 years the recommended fluoridation rate has hovered around 1 ppm - that's 1 mg/l of fluoride in our drinking water. But then we also consume foods processed with fluoridated water and that is not accounted for. I don't know what the tipping point for Alzheimer's could be, but what if it was only 0.5 ppm? Assuming even people in non-fluoridated communities still take in the equivalent of 0.5 ppm in their foods, toothpastes, etc., then we would not expect any higher incidence of Alzheimer's in fluoridated communities becuase both sets have already passed the threshold for symptoms. (BTW, you're right - fluoride is either on or off in the water supply - but that does not tell how much fluoride any particular person consumes. At 1 ppm, or 1 mg/liter, if someone only drinks 1 liter of water per day, then they consume 1 mg of fluoride per day. But if someone else drinks 2 liters of water per day, then they consume 2 mg of fluoride per day, and so on. It's not possible to say everyone in a fluoridated community is consuming the same amount of fluoride.)

    Look up fluoride in your periodic table - it is the most reactive of ALL elements. It combines with aluminum to make aluminum fluoride. Aluminum would not normally be able to cross the blood-brain barrier, but when combined with fluoride it does. They have found large deposits of aluminum in Alzheimer's patients brains, and that's why fluoride is being looked at as the possible Trojan horse that carries it in there. Again, I'd like to see the Alzheimer's incidence in countries which have never fluoridated, and compare that to the U.S. At least across different countries there's much less chance of fluoride's "halo effect" reaching out to non-fluoridated communities.
  5. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

  6. Unregistered

    Unregistered Guest

    Agreed - there are too many confounding factors to see any correlation. It does look like Alzheimer's is largely a Westernized disease, though. So is that because we're living longer in Westernized countries, or is it because of our Western diet and lifestlyes... Regardless of whether Alzheimers and fluoride are linked, I still put forward that it is never a good idea to dispose of toxic waste by dilution into the water supply - it just doesn't make any sense.
  7. Leifer

    Leifer Senior Member

    So many ailments seem to be more common to "western" or technologically advanced (TA) cultures.
    Is it possible that these TA cultures have the means to diagnose (and label) these ailments, giving the reporting of them more frequency.
  8. IWantToBelieve

    IWantToBelieve New Member

    So... is this theory still considered debunked?
  9. IWantToBelieve

    IWantToBelieve New Member

    So with that said, is this still considered debunked?

    I posted this earlier but do not see it anywhere.
  10. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    It's debunking in that there seems to be no correlation between Fluoride use and Alzheimer's.
  11. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    Sometimes things don't make sense to an observer because he believes things which are not true.
    Then again, sometimes things don't make sense to an observer who is not aware of the facts of the matter.
    Usually, by the time an observer becomes fully aware of the true facts of a matter, things start to make sense.
  12. IWantToBelieve

    IWantToBelieve New Member

    Or sometimes the observer sticks to his original assertion and manipulates the data to fit what he once believed was true. And so this site exists!
  13. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    That person isn't being very honest. That sort of thing will catch up to them in the long run.
  14. PCWilliams

    PCWilliams Active Member

    I would think you would see more cases of fluoride-induced problems in the warmer states where, presumably, more water is ingested because of the warmer climate.

    P.S. Have we discussed other fluoride myths? Like, fluoride lowers IQ?
  15. Charlie Primero

    Charlie Primero Active Member

    Average life expectancy in high fluoridation Texas is 78 years, while in low fluoridation California it's 80 years.

    As with your lack of Alzheimer's, here the data clearly demonstrate that fluoridation reduces life expectancy.

  16. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Unless you look at Mississippi, which has low fluoridation, but also the lowest life expectancy in the US.

    Flouridation (darker = more)

    Life Expectency (darker = longer)
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
  17. Charlie Primero

    Charlie Primero Active Member

    I'm sorry Mick, I was joking about the correlation/causation fallacy of this by linking it to Life Expectancy. I should have linked flouridation to UFO sightings or something. :cool:
  18. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    I know, I saw your smiley :) I just forgot to add my own.
  19. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

  20. PCWilliams

    PCWilliams Active Member

    From the CDC: 75 Years of Mortality in the United States, 1935–2010

    View attachment 635

    The Key Findings in the associated PDF file says, "… the age adjusted risk of dying dropped 60 percent from 1935 to 2010" and "The risk of dying decreased for all age groups but was greater for younger age groups with a 94 percent reduction in death rates at 1–4 years compared with a 38 percent decline at 85 years or more."

    When was fluoride first used? 1945? I think it became widespread around 1962. I'm not sure how we could have such a dramatic drop in the mortality rate when fluoride has been poisoning people for AT LEAST the last 50 years. :)
  21. PCWilliams

    PCWilliams Active Member

    I broke out my excel spreadsheet and i entered life expectancy and percent of the population drinking fluorinated water for each of the 50 states, plus the District of Columbia, for the year 2009. This is what it looks like:

    View attachment 636

    The correlation is crystal clear. :confused:
  22. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Nice. Maybe you could scale life expectancy to ((life - 75) * 10 ) to make the confusion more apparent.
  23. Scorp3j

    Scorp3j New Member

    Water fluoridation has significantly decreased tooth decay in the U.S. for the last 65 years. It creates low levels of fluoride in saliva, which reduces the rate at which tooth enamel demineralizes and increases the rate at which it remineralizes in the early stages of cavities. And while recommended levels of fluoride in tap water range from 0.5 to 1.0 mg/L (milligrams per litre depending on climate, bottled water typically has unknown fluoride levels.
    The National Academy of Sciences, the National Heart, Lung and Blood Institute, the American Medical Association, the World Health Organization, the American Cancer Society, the American Dental Association, the British Royal College of Physicians, the Royal Statistical Society, investigators at Oxford University, and every United States Surgeon General for the past 45 years have all endorsed water fluoridation. And the U.S. Centers for Disease Control included water fluoridation among its list of the ten great public health achievements of the 20th century. Further, after 65 years of use, we’ve yet to see any signs that we’re all being poisoned en mass by our tap water, and millions of sudden poison deaths are not the sort of thing that’s likely to go unnoticed.
  24. PCWilliams

    PCWilliams Active Member

    I haven't had to use excel in many years, i wanted to add a second Y axis. If i can figure out how to make a second Y axis for the age i will do as you suggest. It would certainly highlight the non-correlation.
  25. GREECE

    GREECE Guest

    Well ... there are news about flouride and they are NO GOOD NEWS from HARVARD

    Do you really believe that a government that steals its people (through wars, and Lehman Boys who doubled the public debt) ... can have a minimum honest concern about public health even in terms of large scale economy.

    Flouride deliverd to rats provoked Alzheimer symptoms but they avoid to check the same in humans for obvious reasons.

    They plan to put Lithium in water and they will do it with proud.
  26. haarp

    haarp New Member

    There are ways to remineralize teeth and even reverse decay, have a gander through the wealth of information on this forum
  27. Plautus Satire

    Plautus Satire Banned Banned

    No, it hasn't. If you want to ingest the stuff, feel free, just don't try to dope all our drinking water with it.
  28. MikeC

    MikeC Senior Member

    Perhaps you missed this bit of that article:
    ie teh fluoride in the water is actually natural.....and also at much higher levels than that which is achieved where fluoride IS added to water.

    Again that requires extremely high levels - well above those that are found naturally in water or achieved artificially - as much as 75-125 times as much and 100 times
  29. Elfenlied

    Elfenlied Member

    I think proving a correlation between Alzheimer's disease and whatever (fluoride, radiation, garden gnomes per square mile...) is pretty hard to do because of differences in diagnosis (at what stage does it become Alzheimer?), and using death rates is even more problematic, because the direct cause of death won't be Alzheimer but for example pneumonia.
    And higher death rates due to Alzheimer's might even represent better life expectancy because more medical expertise is available:
  30. Cryolite

    Cryolite New Member

    Thers is another major difference that is rarely spoken of and that is "fluoride" based insecticides. In California use of these fluoride insecticides has been rampant on grapes--specifically wine grapes. Most wine from California is drunk in-State. Who get's alzheimer's? Not kids. Who drinks wine? Not kids. Fluoride levels in wine have become of great concern in the EU. Germany, grand master of the EU has set the most stringent (.5ppm) max. level of fluoride allowed in imported wines. The EU in general, I believe is 2ppm. In Sonoma County, where I live the use of fluoride based insecticides was banned about 10 years ago--very quietly I might add. Most wine from here still does not meet the EU or German standard for fluoride. That means there is still a lot of residual fluoride in the ground from the insecticides. Only new vineyards built on recently cleared land can meet the EU standards. I suspect that the residual levels of fluoride will soon be dropping, as Sonoma county announced in 2013 their desire to fluoridate the water following many years of propaganda about a very small group of poor folk whose kids tend toward rotten teeth. I am all in favor of the county passing out free fluoride toothpaste, and fluoride rinses to be dispensed at schools in this poor pocket of our county. I am against fluoride in the water, not because of typical conspiracy reasoning or because I drink lots of wine (I don't drink at all) but because I just do not like "stuff" to be put into my drinking water. The fact that overall, our county has good teeth already, and that all over the world countries are getting rid of fluoride added to the water as fast as they can does not seem to sway our elected politicians running the Sonoma Water agency. Wine with high levels of fluoride could very well be the vector linking alzheimers to aluminum. Not crazy, just like unadulterated H20. A little di-chloramine is ok, but nothing else, please.
  31. Landru

    Landru Moderator Staff Member

    Do you have any evidence for your claims?
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  32. Trigger Hippie

    Trigger Hippie Senior Member

    I believe this thread is about debunking the claim that fluoride causes Alzheimer’s.

    What does the EU banning wine imports from Sonoma County and your affinity for unadulterated H20 have to do with Alzheimer’s?
  33. MikeC

    MikeC Senior Member

    It is not a major difference. 3ppm in wine that is drunk in relatively small amounts vs 1-2ppm in water that is used in everything from bathing to preparing food, is in coffee, soft drinks, potable water?

    Come one - that's just desperate.

    Then there is real science studying Alzheimer's.
  34. Landru

    Landru Moderator Staff Member

    And please show that most wine from California is drunk in-state. According to the there are 330 million cases of wines in the US consumed California market share of US wine sales is 61% or 198 million cases. That means Californians would have to drink more than 99 million cases or 3.4 cases of California wine per each person over 18. shows that Californians only drink 3.4 gallons per capita. 3.4 cases is over 8 gallons.

  35. Cryolite

    Cryolite New Member

    Well I suppose my post was about how sometimes people who claim to be scientists really are just experts at manipulating statistics, and really do not know anything about what they are talking about. In this case I point out that not very many people believe the stats you people are pushing and their is a widespread belief that fluoride is definitely linked to aluminum in the brain and alzheimers. Just because some people come up with stats about fluoridated water having no apparent link to alzheimers really means absolutely nothing. Whenever human behavior is involved, the answers always become extremely complex. My example of widespread use of fluoride based insecticides is one example.
  36. MikeC

    MikeC Senior Member

    The reason there are no stats showing such a link is BECAUSE THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF SUCH A LINK.

    Certainly statistics can be used to mislead - but when they are it is also pretty easy for experts in the field to identify that they are being used incorrectly.

    Statistics can also be used correctly and are perfectly valid when that is hte case.

    To write off stats just because they don't agree with your position does not show a willingness to come to the truth at all - if the stats are misleading then you should be able to show how. And if you cannot show how then perhaps you should admit that they are correct!
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  37. Cryolite

    Cryolite New Member

    Well first off, I said EU limits were 3ppm, .5ppm in Germany. Put your thinking cap on, if fluoridated water does not exist in most of the EU then that means coffee, soft drinks and potable water have none either--in those places. Wine from vineyards where fluoride based insecticides are still being used range from 60-200ppm. There are no reporting requirements on how much fluoride your wine contains, just alcohol content. UC Davis researchers have gotten hold of various wines from napa/sonoma (mostly cab. sauv) that are still being drunk from cellers dating back to the heydays of fluoride based insecticides in the 1980's and found this range of 60-200ppm. Actually- So think of all those people who did not drink small amounts of wine in the 80's and 90's. You know, wine drinkers I observe every day drink about 2 bottles of wine every day.
  38. Cryolite

    Cryolite New Member

    Excuse me Mike, I guess I missed the Nobel Prize announcement for the discovery of the cause of alzheimers. Alzheimers is a prion disease, and the only known cause of that are CJ and cuncussion's of different sorts. If you don't know the cause you cannot write anything off. Actually my discussion of fluoride insecticides had to do with posts here about alzheimers that stated fluoride added to water is proven to be beneficial. It is not proven to be beneficial, just like the link between fluoride and alzheimers has not been proven to be non-existant. How about the link between fluoride and prion disease?
  39. Cryolite

    Cryolite New Member

    Thanks for those stats, I knew someone would come up with them. But those are averages, they say nothing about all those people who have been drinking 2 bottle of wine (or 3) a day for the last 40 years. If you extrapolated based on those people, most california wine would indeed be drunk by californians.
  40. Alhazred The Sane

    Alhazred The Sane Senior Member

    Kuopio was the only town in Finland to add fluoride to the water, but that stopped in 1992.
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