1. McGurnicle

    McGurnicle Member

    "To achieve world government it is necessary to remove from the minds of men their individualism, loyalty to family traditions, national patriotism, and religious dogmas."

    Need help debunking this quote. It's obviously either a misquote, taken out of context, or a complete fabrication. From a Google book search I've found that it' referenced in quite a few New World Order conspiracy books but I can't find an original source for it. Has anyone here come across it before or know anything about it?
     
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  2. Auldy

    Auldy Senior Member

    Found this on wiki-quotes

    The book is, interesting..

    bcae1d7827b97aff20a5fc776da5239b.

    A booking about homeschooling Christian children..

    Not sure where or why the quote would appear in this text (if it even does) considering the subject!

    Will keep digging.
     
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  3. Auldy

    Auldy Senior Member

  4. McGurnicle

    McGurnicle Member

    Thanks Auldy :)

    I found that one as well. I think the author probably used that quote to show that public schools are meant to "remove from the minds of men their individualism, loyalty to family tradition, national patriotism, and religious dogmas".

    I believe that book was published in 1991, the earliest use of the quote I have found so far is in a book by conspiracy theorist A Ralph Epperson published in 1985.

    I appreciate the help and I'll keep at is a well.
     
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  5. Snout

    Snout New Member

    The majority of internet pages that provide a citation claim that the original quote comes from a lecture by Chisholm published in journal called Psychiatry in February 1946, for example:

    http://creationrevolution.com/dr-george-brock-chisholm-on-achieving-a-world-government/
    https://theflippintruth.wordpress.com/tag/brock-chisholm/

    The article/lecture is called "The Reestablishment of Peacetime Society - The Role of Psychiatry", and can be found here as an offprint:

    https://mikemcclaughry.files.wordpr...ocial-progress-chisholm-and-sullivan-1946.pdf

    I have searched the article fairly thoroughly, and I cannot find the quote. If this is its supposed source, the quote appears to be fabricated.

    Alternatively, some other pages claim the quote comes from a speech that Chisholm supposedly made at an education conference at the Asilomar Conference Center in California on September 11 1954. I'm not sure how you could verify this.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2015
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  6. Trailspotter

    Trailspotter Senior Member

    I've googled the quote, the top hip was to the Wikipedia page on Brock Chisholm:
    Screen Shot 2015-09-06 at 10.48.06.
    The Wiki page, however, does not contain this quote, but it was last modified on 2 September 2015, at 21:24.

    PS In the YouTube video (the third hit), the quote is attributed to "Brock Adams, Director UN Health Organization". There is/was a politician of this name, but he did not hold this post.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2015
  7. Trailspotter

    Trailspotter Senior Member

    I can find no evidence of this exact journal title having been published at that time or ever. There are well established American Journal of Psychiatry (est. 1844) and British Journal of Psychiatry (est. 1853), but neither of them had a February 1946 issue.
    There are two publications by (G.B.) Chisholm in the former:
    PSYCHOLOGICAL ADJUSTMENT OF SOLDIERS TO ARMY AND TO CIVILIAN LIFE, November 1944
    http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/10.1176/ajp.101.3.300
    THE FUTURE (of) PSYCHIATRY, February 1948
    http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/10.1176/ajp.104.8.543
    The last one is the closest to the alleged citation, but I cannot access the full PDF of this article from home to check for the presence of the quote.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2015
  8. Spectrar Ghost

    Spectrar Ghost Senior Member

    The quote does appear, uncited, on his wiki page:
    I've not done enough digging to see when it was added.
     
  9. Spectrar Ghost

    Spectrar Ghost Senior Member

  10. Snout

    Snout New Member

    According to the offprint I linked, the full title of the journal is Psychiatry : journal of the biology and the pathology of interpersonal relations. Alternative subtitles over the years include: "journal for the operational statement of interpersonal relations" "journal for the study of interpersonal processes" and "interpersonal and biological processes", but they all appear to be the same journal.

    https://mikemcclaughry.files.wordpr...ocial-progress-chisholm-and-sullivan-1946.pdf

    It was founded by the neo-Freudian psychoanalyst Harry Stack Sullivan in 1938, and published by the William Alanson White Psychiatric Foundation in Washington DC. It seems to be still in existence, and is listed on PubMed under its shortened name:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/nlmcatalog?term="Psychiatry"[Title+Abbreviation]

    See also:

    http://www.britannica.com/biography/Harry-Stack-Sullivan
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpersonal_psychoanalysis
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2015
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  11. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    i'm trying to use the index at amazon so i dont have to read the whole book but its not jiving with the text here of the book , he seems to have alot of footnotes so do you know WHERE the quote is in the book?

    i'm curious because i found a 'source' from 1995 that has it quoted a bit different


    RE: Conference on Education citations-
    i also cant find a "Conference on education" (1954) in California which is often cited as the original speech location... got a 1970 one but i dont see him speaking at it.

    There was a "white House Conference on Education" (1954) which is where federal grants to help local schools was first suggested.

    i also see this quote attributed to Chisholm at supposedly the same conference

    Religious sites:
    I mostly see the quote at religious sites and they list
    as having the topic quote as well.

    Hoping an older source would link a yet older source, but i cant track down any of these publications.

    Anyway kinda sounds like something he would say based on the times and his general view i'm reading. But the exact wording doesnt really make sense in an "education topic" setting*. Or a pure "psychiatric topic" setting. So it would be nice to find an original.

    *i did find this reference (and it may be pure bunk) but didnt persue it, as SO many men back then made somewhat similar statements, tracking this down can be real tough.
    if he was speaking at an event like this group the wording would make mroe sense.
     
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  12. Snout

    Snout New Member

    Some elements of the alleged quote appear consistent with Brock Chisholm's oft-stated views. Chisholm fought in WW I and was Director General of Medical Services in the Canadian Army during WW II. In the post war period he believed (like many) that an even more catastrophic WW III was inevitable unless the causes of the first two wars could be addressed. As a psychoanalyst in the emerging field of interpersonal theory he believed that blind nationalism and enforced adherence to religious dogma and tradition were at the heart of the psychopathology that led to the two wars he lived through.

    The "establishment of a genuine world order, an order in which national sovereignty is subordinate to world authority" was a popular aspiration in the immediate post war period as people dealt with the trauma of the second world war and faced the prospect of an even more devastating nuclear WW III, and was something Chisholm would have been fully on board with. But the idea of removing "from the minds of men their individualism" was anathema to him. On the contrary he strongly advocated that lasting peace could be achieved only by allowing people to grow up free of the authoritarian restrictions imposed by religious dogma, nationalism and excessive parental control.

    Which perhaps explains why he might be demonised by some in the religious right.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2015
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  13. Trailspotter

    Trailspotter Senior Member

    My bad. I have overlooked this title as it was not listed in the Wikipedia List of psychiatry journals, nor it appeared in the top 100 speciality journals in Journal Rankings on Psychiatry and Mental Health.

    I'll see if I can find the full text of his 1948 publication in American Journal of Psychiatry in a Medical School Library nearby. It probably was the first Chisholm's paper since his taking the helm at WHO.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2015
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  14. NoParty

    NoParty Senior Member

    As I paw through all this, early on a Sunday morning, I keep having the same thought:

    "What a wonderful world this would be, if those using this "quote" to justify their panicky
    claims, spent even 1/10 the effort this lot has, to confirm that anyone actually said this."



    I know, I know...it's a lot more fun to be worried/outraged about something than to actually lift a
    finger and look into the claim that anyone of significance ever actually said it...but wouldn't it be nice?




    p.s. Of course, any and everyone is free to hold the opinion expressed in the quote...it would only be noteworthy
    if someone with enough power and inclination (to act on it) began doing so. Since there's zero evidence of this,
    it kinda looks like hysteria for the sake of the fun of angry hysteria...to me.
     
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  15. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    and to think "context", i'm speculating now too, but to me.. if he has any training in psychiatry - even way back then- to me it sounds like he is more 'lamenting' that a [paraphrasing now] 'world governement would be impossible BECAUSE you would have to 1. remove individualism form the minds of men (good luck) 2. and loyalty to family traditions (good luck) 3. and loyalty to nationalism (good luck) 4. AND remove religious dogmas (good luck).
     
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  16. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Senior Member

    And the quote also sets up the demonisation of a sceptical or scientific viewing of those things, which may be the context it is intended to be used in now; as a useful retort to youtube and facebook arguments. It's just another way of saying 'sheeple!'
     
  17. Snout

    Snout New Member

    Brock Chisholm's argument in The Reestablishment of Peacetime Society - The Role of Psychiatry is actually the exact opposite of what the alleged quote implies. He wrote the paper within months of the dropping of atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, in which he addresses the pressing problem of how to prevent the next world war. He identifies three key issues: the need to suppress national aggression by an overarching "world government" (which he sees as only a temporary solution):

    as well as the need to redistribute resources more fairly:

    but as a psychoanalyst, Chisholm's main argument was that the root cause of war was human neurosis, which was the result of the crippling of emotional maturation by arbitrary authority:

    Chisholm believed this "failure to mature" was caused by blind loyalty to family traditions, national patriotism, and religious dogmas. He was actually advocating a radical form of individual freedom - especially for children - the exact opposite of "remov[ing] from the minds of men their individualism":

    The full 1946 paper is here:
    https://mikemcclaughry.files.wordpr...ocial-progress-chisholm-and-sullivan-1946.pdf
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2015
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  18. Trailspotter

    Trailspotter Senior Member

    I have found it, and it does not contain the quote (see attached photos of the journal pages with the Chisholm's paper). There is a vaguely reminiscent paragraph on the World Health Organization to be (emphasis mine):
     

    Attached Files:

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  19. Trailspotter

    Trailspotter Senior Member

    There is a recent (2008) Chisholm's biography by John Farley:
    Brock Chisholm, the World Health Organization, and the Cold War

    Results of searching the preview of this book on Google Books for "world government" suggest that he was indeed a proponent of a "world government", e.g.:
    Screen Shot 2015-09-07 at 20.20.17.

    However, there is no mentioning of the alleged quote in this book. An interested party may try to obtain the full text of the book and then to trawl through the cited sources for more details of the Chisholm's speeches advocating this idea in order to prove, or, possibly, to debunk the quote, but I am not that interested.
     
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  20. McGurnicle

    McGurnicle Member

    Thanks, Snout! I think that pretty much settles it. It's a bogus quote that clearly isn't in keeping with Chisholm's well articulated perspective on individuality and personal freedom.

    And thanks to everyone else who looked into it, I really appreciate the help.

    Can I add 'Debunked' to the title or do the mods take care of that?
     
  21. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    i'm not sure you can say 'debunked'. most of the sources i saw claim he said it in a speech in 1954. He still could have said it. I started reading how "individualism" was being used in different contexts during that time period, but i got bored.. but its possible he meant 'individualism' as say pro-socialism/pro 'world governement' vs. seperate gov type thing. I'm probably not saying that clearly.

    Anyway, i dont consider it debunked so far.Then again you cant prove a negative.

    But yes you'd have to message a "mod", @Mick West , @Landru or @Pete Tar are mods around now.
     
  22. Snout

    Snout New Member

    Out of all the elements of the quote "it is necessary to remove from the minds of men their individualism" is what seems to jar the most, given what we know of Chisholm's views on the freedom of individuals to mature free of the dictates of the arbitrary authority of parents, local cultural norms and religious dogma.

    Most people reading that quote would assume would assume that "individualism" meant something like "libertarianism" does today - that is, a political position in opposition to communitarianism.

    But "individualism" actually has a different nuance of meaning in the context of psychoanalysis and personality theory. Traditional Freudian theory held that personality development was primarily inherent to the individual, and that social factors were secondary. Among critics of this view (called Individualism) in the mid 20th century were the neo-Freudians such as Eric Fromm and Harry Stack Sullivan, who held that social, cultural and interpersonal influences - parents, religion, local culture, etc were far more important factors (both positive and negative) in the development of a mature, non-neurotic, fully realised individual. Chisholm was definitely of that latter view.

    So "it is necessary to remove from the minds of men their individualism" in this context does not mean removing individuality - on the contrary, it could mean something like "we need to recognise the negative impacts of social institutions on psychological development, rather than pretend that these are not important".

    Obviously, we would need to see the quote (if it exists) in its context to see exactly what Chisholm meant by it. But I suspect that part of the problem might be confusing the words individualism (a theory of personality development) with individuality (a state of free personhood).
     
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  23. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    it also changes throughout different eras, which is basically OT.

    Ultimately, it is up to the people making the claim that he said it, to produce the actual source.

    But if it was a speech, it is also quite possible the person writing it down messed up a bit. (Reporters tend to do that at times). "Individual idosyncracies" would make more sense to me in that sentence, from what little ive read on him than "individualism". But as you said perhaps the "reporter" who wrote it down figured they were the same thing.

    Or he misspoke-sounds like he spoke on this topic rather often.

    I personally always find it a bit suspicious when it seems noone uploaded the original source, but then again it could be in some old off line book from the 1960s. Which is the only reason i'm feeling it cant be considered 'debunked' per se. The SOURCES claimed could maybe be debunked,ex if we could find a "conference on Education in CA 1954 and show he did not speak there, i didnt have much luck finding much in that respect. Although i still cant figure why he'd be speaking about "world government" at a Conference of Education (maybe a unesc thing?).
     
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  24. mcfirefly

    mcfirefly New Member

    The original document is a copyrighted article, so anyone posting the whole thing is in violation of copyright. This is where Huxey, Hiss, and Chisholm were coming from. It's a "real thing", as they say.
    Screenshot_20160803-170800.
     
  25. mcfirefly

    mcfirefly New Member

    When I did searches using Chisholm, G Brock and G Brock Chisholm, the Nashville TN public library said no results. When I searched the title of the book, same result.

    Honestly, I think the ideologues who favor this don't want people who are scandalized it to be able to find it. I couldn't find a way here to upload an image at first, so I went back to tandfonline to get a link to the book, and they didnt have it either! But I found a way to upload the screenshot i took earlier, after all!
     
  26. Ray Von Geezer

    Ray Von Geezer Senior Member

    I don't think there was much doubt that the document existed, the issue is that the quote doesn't appear to be in it.

    Not sure what you mean? It came straight up in search on www.tandfonline.com, and there's a (paywall'd) link to download it. Were you using a 'phone? Uploading images here is hardly black magic.

    Ray Von
     
  27. MarkB

    MarkB New Member

    Tal Brooke refers to a lengthier version of this quote in the introduction of his book When the World Will Be As One (Mar 1989). Here is the full quote:

    To achieve world government, it is necessary to remove from the minds of men their individualism, loyalty to family tradition, national patriotism and religious dogmas....
    We have swallowed all manner of poisonous certainties fed us by our parents, our Sunday and day
    school teachers, our politicians, our priests, our newspapers and others with vested interests in controlling us.
    The reinterpretation and eventual eradication of the concept of right and wrong which has been the basis of child training, the substitution of intelligent and rational thinking for faith in the certainties of the old people, these are the belated objectives … for charting the changes of human behavior.​

    The source is cited as The Utah Independent, Sep. 1977, so it sounds like a newspaper or magazine publication. I found nothing about the publication in an online search but, admittedly, I wasn't thorough.

    Many old newspaper and magazine quotes like this one have unverifiable sources but that doesn't mean they've been debunked--only unverified. I'd be grateful to any sleuths here who could verify the quote as I'd like to use it.
     
  28. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    that same version is in Epperson's 1985 book.
    http://www.911truth.ch/pdf/Epperson...o-the-Conspiratorial-View-of-History-1994.pdf

    quote on page 368 in pdf

    and he gives the Utah Independent as a source. although so far i havent seen The Utah Independent as existing in 1977. will keep looking

    edit: opps wrong photo:
    gg.JPG
     
  29. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    this bit is in https://mikemcclaughry.files.wordpr...ocial-progress-chisholm-and-sullivan-1946.pdf
     
  30. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    I found a college History Thesis written, that does refer often the The Utah Independent in the 1970's as source for her quotes. So it did exist in the mid 1970's.
    http://cdmbuntu.lib.utah.edu/utils/getfile/collection/etd2/id/1352/filename/984.pdf
     
  31. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    ok... i think it's fair to say The Utah Independent, which is the primary found source of that OP quote, might be a tad bit biased about Chisolm. and may have paraphrased him a bit ;)

    https://www.mormonchronicle.com/img/Ezra-Taft-Benson-and-Mormon-Political-Conflicts.pdf