1. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Moderator Staff Member

    Credit to ATS member waypastvne for the info contained in this post on the 'impossible plane' thread on ATS

    (archived link created by Mick...)
    http://archive.is/2xkyj

    Photo of street showing possible passport:
    [​IMG]

    And other photos taken before the towers fell, at around the time the passport was supposedly picked up.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]



    [Photo discussion moved to: https://www.metabunk.org/threads/ph...mpact-before-collapse-possible-passport.2893/ ]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 6, 2014
  2. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Moderator Staff Member

    • Like Like x 1
  3. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    The photos seem genuine. However the account from Wozniak would need some additional verification. Seems overly dramatized, possibly made up.
     
  4. George B

    George B Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member

    So Rich Wozniak is the person who found the passport . . . seems the individual did understand the importance of what he found and did not disappear into shadows of history . . .
     
  5. George B

    George B Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member

    I note some skepticism in your post . . . does it come from the elaboration of his deeds of altruism . . . ??
     
  6. Josh Heuer

    Josh Heuer Active Member

    Well, that clears up the 'issue' of where the passport was found and how it got to the detective.

    He was on the backside of the Deutsche Bank building on Liberty St. when he found it, and proceeded to West St. about a block away and handed it over

    The story seems fake though.
     
  7. George B

    George B Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member

    So you like Mick are skeptical . . . Why ?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    I'm skeptical because it seems exactly like what high school student would write if asked to asked to write an account of an a hero rushing in to help during the events of 9/11. All the events depicted seem to be things that we are all familiar with via video and other accounts, and combined with high level explanations of what happened. It's like a laundry list of everything the writer could think of, taken to extremes. Like:

     
  9. Josh Heuer

    Josh Heuer Active Member

    This is a secondhand story, passed on by the site owner, Michael Fackarell. Where did he get the story? Directly from Rich Wozniak? From a blog of Rich's? Maybe it's time to give Michael Fackerell an email to see.
     
  10. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Attached Files:

  11. JRBids

    JRBids Senior Member

    I am skeptical because I'd never heard this FANTASTIC story before. You'd think it would have been all over the news.
     
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  12. George B

    George B Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member

    I think there is possibly 911 fatigue . . . a saturation point where things 911 are no longer news worthy . . . ??
     
  13. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Moderator Staff Member

    It is an elaborate tale. However, in the context of providing an inspirational christian story of how God worked in his life on that day, it is what you would expect.
     
  14. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    You think it sounds plausible then?
     
  15. Trigger Hippie

    Trigger Hippie Senior Member

  16. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Moderator Staff Member

    I find the ending a little disturbing as I find this sort of religious sentiment icky and it seems not far off from what the perpetrators themselves would have believed...
    However, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say that is his way of coming to terms with an incredibly devastating situation.

    A cynic would question if the tale was invented purely for christian propaganda purposes - however I would not push that angle.

    Perhaps this part leaves room for physical verification (phone records, the pastor)...
    (though beyond our resources probably.)
     
  17. George B

    George B Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member

    I can only speak in probabilities . . . I would say the story is embellished . . . a 90 percent certainty . . . the fact this particular person found the passport . . . less than 50 percent . . . does that help?
     
  18. JRBids

    JRBids Senior Member

  19. JRBids

    JRBids Senior Member

    I belonged to a Methodist church at the time of 911, I attended very regularly. The Sunday after 911 I went to the service, and as the pastor spoke of God giving us strength etc etc I thought the same thing....there are probably people in the middle east who side with the terrorists listening to a similar talk. It was pretty much the last time I went to church other than weddings, funerals, and the occasional xmas mass.
     
  20. George B

    George B Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member

    I think except for a few hardcore groups and individuals the 911 investigation is over . . . the damage to the US credibility and goodwill and sympathy earned by the loss of human life in NYC/Pentagon/Pa is long gone . . . it was squandered by ill advised military actions which are still resonating distrust and damage throughout the Middle East . . . there is no real national interest to reopen the wounds of 911 . . . the history settled, the animals are out of the barn and the door has been closed behind them . . .
     
    • Like Like x 2
  21. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

  22. Alienentity

    Alienentity Active Member

    I wish you hadn't moved the pictures to another thread. In my view they are material to his account, and demonstrate the condition of items ejected from the aircraft and towers - one of the major 'sticking points', regarding the provenance of the passport was whether it would even be visible amongst all the other debris.
    The pictures are central to the story. Oh well....
     
  23. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    I've put the photo back in the OP, and added some more, so the story can be discussed in the context of the images.
     
  24. Josh Heuer

    Josh Heuer Active Member

    The picture that was separated from this thread has yet to be proven as a passport at all, let alone to be that of Saqami's. Until it is, it's just a picture of debris. Certainly it has a minor connection in that it could be a passport and it could be Saqami's but until either of those ideas are proven true it's a just picture of debris from that day. The connection itself is mere speculation.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  25. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Indeed, but the photo do show what a street strewn with the rubble from the building would look like, also that there were people looking down at the rubble, even examining things (and, obviously, taking photos of it).
     
  26. Alienentity

    Alienentity Active Member

    Thanks Mick.

    Josh, surely you're not disputing that the picture gives valuable context to the type of debris found on the steets immediately after flight 11 hit WTC 1.
    It might be worth contacting Chris Sorensen about the photo. He has a blog. Perhaps he can clarify what the object was.
     
  27. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Note though that the story has him arriving at the tower after the second plane hit. The photos of the street are all before the second impact, so that's all WTC1 debris.
     
  28. Alienentity

    Alienentity Active Member

    The photos also show some people running around (not everyone), which corroborates Wozniak's observations.
    Some detractors had claimed that it was suspicious that the person who handed the passport to the cop 'ran off'. I haven't seen anything to indicate Wozniak did not return to the area around the towers, nor that he was caught in close proximity to the collapses.
    What is it that people find untrue?
     
  29. Josh Heuer

    Josh Heuer Active Member

    At this point, I don't see any reason to dispute that a man did find the passport, and turned it in to law enforcement.

    Things currently in dispute (and hence the reason I mentioned a topic split) are:
    • Is the story genuine?
    • Assuming the story is true, was the passport Rich found shown in the photograph in the other thread (completely linking the picture and the story), and
    • Pertaining to the other thread, is that actually a passport? (We'll probably have to verify this part first ourselves somehow unless we get direct testimony from Rich or the photographer)
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2014
  30. Bmead

    Bmead Member

    Yes, all seems genuine, very good, although how did he know the guy was fbi, because the NYPD detective seemed quite sure he was NYPD not FBI unless he was confused who he worked for, or confused as to the man running off and telling the guy to run off. If the guy WAS FBI then Yuk Chin lied. If he wasn't, what explains him (RW) Thinking he was?
     
  31. Bmead

    Bmead Member

    As near as i can tell, the suspected passport looks too thick to be a passport and far different in condition than the recovered one, unless of course they ironed it out. And was he the photographer? Because if not then the cover is visible from one side only. Anyway my larger issues here are,

    "But we were determined to keep going. At one point there was nothing between us and the towers except 2 police officers preparing to block the street entrance but they were too late as we blew right past them and got within 200 ft. of two burning towers"

    And those cops, decided the job they were given did not matter, a terror action taken place did not matter they could let people run where they like especially TOWARDS the towers


    ."There were scattered police and firefighters all around the streets. It seemed that I was one of only a handful of civilians so I had to pass myself off as a security agent"

    Confirming what i earlier asserted, he would find a cop very close to finding it.Additionally, he does not have to pass himself off as anything to civilians, only to cops and fbi, how does this work, you just TELL someone.."the name is Bond..James Bond" and they believe without question?


    "I could hear objects hitting the ground around me so I decided to work my way around the back of the building and now I had learned what had happened"

    He already knew by his own words, before he even got there


    " I felt as if I were looking into the eyes of someone that may have been part of the terror"

    Because only Arabs ever are terrorists?

    "The firemen then proceeded to move toward the tower. They got about 30-40 feet away when without warning a person’s body landed between them with such an impact they were thrown to the side. The woman had also jumped from the building but she had landed on top of one of the firemen, killing him instantly"

    This event is described by FDNY and NYPD, it does not cite any civilians huddled there,

    "My cell phone messages were piling up as I watched them pass 10 but there was no reception within miles as the tower’s antenna’s were completely destroyed disrupting all cell phone usage in the area"

    If there is no reception, how does he explain receiving the messages? They do not appear with no reception

    . I remember thinking to myself, “”what is out there””, “”what hit us””? I had no idea that the tower had fallen and much of it had landed on top of us destroying so much of the building we were in.

    At which point he is IN wtc 1 and so NOTHING landed on top of it
     
  32. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    I thought you said it all seems genuine? It all seems highly exaggerated and made up to me. I don't think this account can really be used as any sort of evidence.
     
  33. Bmead

    Bmead Member

    It did until i decided to find the original piece.
    But, in the interest of fairness, i will try to run this down a bit. So anyone else that can add credence please let me know. I would be remiss to dismiss it out of hand when i have not done the same to anything that backs my own theories so ill dig deeper
     
  34. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Moderator Staff Member

    Not necessary that someone was lying - he could just be using 'FBI' inaccurately to mean any law enforcement authority, or maybe he got the wrong impression from jackets being worn, or remembered it wrong.
    Not really a point to get hung up on, though I guess the discrepancy should be noted.
    See the separate thread on the photo - it was another photographer, and he doubts details of the story as he does not recall the extreme carnage described here.
    I still don't know why that photo was originally connected to the passport, probably it was suggested as a possibility at one point because of the timing (before the collapse) and the colour.
    @Hitheycallmejosh has pointed out it has sharp edges compared to the round edges of the passport, so it's probably not it.
    Most of these don't seem very concrete objections. You need something more verifiable to challenge.


    Arabs terrorists have been a stereotype for a while, so it's easily possible, but it may indicate a narrative that is just a little too tidy.

    "
    Do you mean an incident of jumper landing on a fireman? Can you give the account?
    Depending on the level of detail, not mentioning them doesn't indicate they weren't there necessarily.

    It is starting to look like an elaboration for christian inspiration propaganda. But notably, independent of any 'official version propaganda'.

    However, he may have been there, remembering the day a couple years after, building on the skeleton of memories a more elaborate and fleshed out version with no intent to do deliberately mislead. Memories are not movies and we fill in gaps without being aware of it.
     
  35. Bmead

    Bmead Member

    Pete, i do not have to hand the fireman/NYPD account because i only read through them the other day and saved both files, to find these excerpts again will be requiring reading the lot again. Which i will do but not for a few days as it will be for part of my work to locate officers etc, so when i come across it i will put it up.

    It may well be that if this is a sincere piece that false memory is the case for some parts. Some things seem to be a case of what we may want to be like. I would like to THINK i would do something noble, but whether i would or not i cannot say for sure. I had a look deeper into that aspect since the previous thread, and events and exactly what is said by interviewers have been proven to shape the recollection, even making it possible to recall things that never happened. So i think the answer is to try to speak to the person more directly to better understand then being questioned by different people, the story should have subtle variations that will by how variant they are, reveal if parts are made up or not. If the story sticks very rigidly to the same wording it would suggest it was scripted. But as yet no chance to find the person. Has anyone else ?
     
  36. Melbury's Brick

    Melbury's Brick Active Member

    Wozniak's account seems to contain to much detail. It's argued that this is one indication of lying. The connection he makes with terrorists seems suspect to me. If I picked up, and handed over a passport, it would be so that it could be returned to it's owner. Jumping to conclusions about terrorism in such a chaotic situation makes me a little suspicious of the authenticity of this story.
     
  37. Melbury's Brick

    Melbury's Brick Active Member

    Small point about "running off".....

    In this interview FBI agent Dan Coleman says....."And it was handed him [but] by the time he looked up again, the guy who had handed it to him [had] run off, you know, which made sense".

    This is not the same as seeing someone run off. This is looking up and seeing that they're not there anymore. (It is, of course, a second hand account).

    http://911blogger.com/news/2011-11-...ssport-911-hijacker-satam-al-suqami-was-found

     
  38. Bmead

    Bmead Member

    And he was 7th not 5th anyway so that is in error. But whether 5th or 7th it is not fbi as stated.
    I cannot find a Wozniak that seems to be a match.
    My biggest issue is, the claim to have masqueraded as a security services person, having also run straight past two cops. The problem is, that 1) Having identified he ran by cops, he clearly shows he knows a cop vs a FBI agent, and 2ndly, if they were cordoning the street they are not going to let people run by. There is a piece of footage where cops get angry at people filming trying to push past the barrier and they tell them to get back, whoever is behind the camera tells them to do there fxxxxxg job then. The point is, the cops are not going to just ignore someone racing into the buildings vicinity when they have been ordered to clear it.

    But these are speculations and i guess will be dependent on more, like the host site of the story. They may know more
     
  39. Bmead

    Bmead Member

    Just for some information. There exists further information the FBI is holding, including the police records, regarding the passport. Having submitted a request for them. It has been denied apparently the items are subject to exemption from disclosure.

    That is not the end of the matter, but has stalled me momentarily. It at least demonstrates there is far more information relative to the passport than what is publically available, and therefore i will continue to push for it
     
  40. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Can you post the evidence of this information, request, and denial?
     
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