WTC 7 (Building 7)

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So, you admit you haven't a clue...and yet think its fake.

Interesting.

Not originally posted by Oxymoron
I think it quite possibly is fake... I don't know, I...have no idea on it


What exactly is your point.

Do you think it clever to mis quote people by mixing up the context and meaning?
 
Interesting... Barry Jennings and Mr Hess trapped in 7 account.



http://screwloosechange.blogspot.co.uk/2009/09/loose-change-9-11-america-coup-barry.html
External Quote:

Barry Jennings: Hi. My name is Barry Jennings. Um. I'm 52 years old. Um, I've worked for for 32 years in one location. Basically, that's it. I'm married. Father of 4.

It's very funny, I was on my way to work, traffic was excellent, I received a call, a small Cessna had hit the World Trade Center. I was asked to go and man the Office of Emergency Management at the World Trade Center 7 on the 23rd floor. As I arrived there, there were police all in the lobby. They showed me the way to the elevator, we got up to the 23rd floor. Me and Mr. Hess who I didn't know was Mr. Hess at the time. We got to the 23rd floor, we couldn't get in. We had to go back down. Then, security and police took us to the freight elevators. When they took us back up, and we did get in.

Upon arriving into the OEM EOC, we noticed that everybody was gone. I saw coffee that was on the desk. Still smoke was still coming up the coffee. I saw half-eaten sandwiches. And only me and Mr. Hess was up there. After I called several individuals, one individual told me that um, to leave and to leave right away.

Mr Hess came running back in. He said: "We're the only ones up here. We gotta get outta of here!"

He found a stairwell. When we reached the eighth, uh, the sixth floor, the landing that we were standing on, gave way. There was an explosion. And the landing gave way.
And when, I was left there hanging. I had to climb back up. And now I had to walk back up the eighth floor. After getting to the eighth floor, everything was dark. It was dark and it was very, very hot. Very hot. I asked Mr Hess to test the phones as I took a fire extinguisher and broke out the windows. Once I broke out the windows I could see outside below me, I saw, um, police cars on fire, buses on fire, I looked one way, the building was there, I look the other way it was gone.

I was trapped in there for several hours. I was trapped in there when both buildings came down. The firefighters came, they came to the window cause I was going to come out on the fire hose, I didn't want to stay there it was too hot, I was going to come out on the fire hose, they came to the window, they started yelling, do not do that, it won't hold you. And then they ran away. See I didn't know what was going on. That's when the first tower fell. When they started running, the first tower was coming down. I had no way of knowing that. Then I saw them come back. Now I saw them come back with more concern on their faces. And they ran away again. The second tower fell. So as they turned and ran the second time, the guy said "Don't worry, we'll be back for you." And they did come back, this time they came back with ten firefighters. And they kept asking, "Where are you? We don't know where you are." I said I was on the north side of the building because when I was on the stairs I saw, north side.

All this time, I'm hearing all types of explosions. All this time I'm hearing explosions. And I'm thinking maybe it's the buses that were on fire, the cars on fire, I don't see no, you know. But I'm still hearing these explosions. When they finally got to us, and they took us down to what, what they, they, uh, called the lobby. 'cause I asked them, when we got down there, I said: "Where are we?" He said: "This was the lobby." And I said: "You gotta be kidding me!" Total ruins. Total ruins. Now keep in mind, when I came in here, lobby had nice escalators, it was a huge lobby. And for me to see what I saw, unbelievable.

And the firefighter that took us down, kept saying, do not look down. And I kept saying "Why?" "Do not look down." And you're stepping over people, and you know you can feel when you're stepping over people. Took us out through a hole, that the, I don't know who made this hole, in this wall, that's how they got us out. They took us out through a hole in the wall, to safety. As they were taking me out, one firefighter had fallen, I believe he was having a heart attack, but before that, this big giant police officer came to me. And he says, "You have to run!" I said, "I can't run. My knees are swollen." He said, "You'll have to get on your knees and crawl then." He said, "Because we have reports of more explosions." And that's when I started crawling. And I saw this guy fall behind me. His comrade came to his aid, and dragged him to safety. Um, I was looking for an ambulance, for my knees and at that time they told me you gotta walk 20 blocks, to a refuge. Before I got there, Eyewitness News grabbed me and started interviewing me. And that's basically it.
 
Interesting... Barry Jennings and Mr Hess trapped in 7 account.



http://screwloosechange.blogspot.co.uk/2009/09/loose-change-9-11-america-coup-barry.html
External Quote:

Barry Jennings: Hi. My name is Barry Jennings. Um. I'm 52 years old. Um, I've worked for for 32 years in one location. Basically, that's it. I'm married. Father of 4.

It's very funny, I was on my way to work, traffic was excellent, I received a call, a small Cessna had hit the World Trade Center. I was asked to go and man the Office of Emergency Management at the World Trade Center 7 on the 23rd floor. As I arrived there, there were police all in the lobby. They showed me the way to the elevator, we got up to the 23rd floor. Me and Mr. Hess who I didn't know was Mr. Hess at the time. We got to the 23rd floor, we couldn't get in. We had to go back down. Then, security and police took us to the freight elevators. When they took us back up, and we did get in.

Upon arriving into the OEM EOC, we noticed that everybody was gone. I saw coffee that was on the desk. Still smoke was still coming up the coffee. I saw half-eaten sandwiches. And only me and Mr. Hess was up there. After I called several individuals, one individual told me that um, to leave and to leave right away.

Mr Hess came running back in. He said: "We're the only ones up here. We gotta get outta of here!"

He found a stairwell. When we reached the eighth, uh, the sixth floor, the landing that we were standing on, gave way. There was an explosion. And the landing gave way.
And when, I was left there hanging. I had to climb back up. And now I had to walk back up the eighth floor. After getting to the eighth floor, everything was dark. It was dark and it was very, very hot. Very hot. I asked Mr Hess to test the phones as I took a fire extinguisher and broke out the windows. Once I broke out the windows I could see outside below me, I saw, um, police cars on fire, buses on fire, I looked one way, the building was there, I look the other way it was gone.

I was trapped in there for several hours. I was trapped in there when both buildings came down. The firefighters came, they came to the window cause I was going to come out on the fire hose, I didn't want to stay there it was too hot, I was going to come out on the fire hose, they came to the window, they started yelling, do not do that, it won't hold you. And then they ran away. See I didn't know what was going on. That's when the first tower fell. When they started running, the first tower was coming down. I had no way of knowing that. Then I saw them come back. Now I saw them come back with more concern on their faces. And they ran away again. The second tower fell. So as they turned and ran the second time, the guy said "Don't worry, we'll be back for you." And they did come back, this time they came back with ten firefighters. And they kept asking, "Where are you? We don't know where you are." I said I was on the north side of the building because when I was on the stairs I saw, north side.

All this time, I'm hearing all types of explosions. All this time I'm hearing explosions. And I'm thinking maybe it's the buses that were on fire, the cars on fire, I don't see no, you know. But I'm still hearing these explosions. When they finally got to us, and they took us down to what, what they, they, uh, called the lobby. 'cause I asked them, when we got down there, I said: "Where are we?" He said: "This was the lobby." And I said: "You gotta be kidding me!" Total ruins. Total ruins. Now keep in mind, when I came in here, lobby had nice escalators, it was a huge lobby. And for me to see what I saw, unbelievable.

And the firefighter that took us down, kept saying, do not look down. And I kept saying "Why?" "Do not look down." And you're stepping over people, and you know you can feel when you're stepping over people. Took us out through a hole, that the, I don't know who made this hole, in this wall, that's how they got us out. They took us out through a hole in the wall, to safety. As they were taking me out, one firefighter had fallen, I believe he was having a heart attack, but before that, this big giant police officer came to me. And he says, "You have to run!" I said, "I can't run. My knees are swollen." He said, "You'll have to get on your knees and crawl then." He said, "Because we have reports of more explosions." And that's when I started crawling. And I saw this guy fall behind me. His comrade came to his aid, and dragged him to safety. Um, I was looking for an ambulance, for my knees and at that time they told me you gotta walk 20 blocks, to a refuge. Before I got there, Eyewitness News grabbed me and started interviewing me. And that's basically it.


Oxy, I am with you . . . there is a point where logic alone cannot explain reality . . . It is a personal journey . . . some will understand and many will not. . . . I will probably forever doubt the Official Story, maybe because I choose too. . . maybe because I subconsciously know something I cannot adequately articulate. . . .

My experience with confidential and undisclosed information which I have been privy to over my years is that it is usually withheld from the public to save embarrassment on the part of the authorities to protect political, moral or legal interests . . . political correctness also is a part of the decisions. . . I think this is a piece of the puzzle . . . . the 911 fiasco was a failure of bibical proportion at almost all levels. . . . our security people were asleep at the throttle as the railroad people would say. . . .
 
"Firstly, thank you for such a reasoned and IMO balanced post. I am interested in how you transitioned to accepting the OS."

Sorry for the slight diversion from the WTC7 discussion, but Oxy asked a question and I really didn't know where else to include my answer.

Oxy, it was not a matter of a transition as much as it was finally realizing how gullible I had become. How ironic was it that the term I regularly used to lampoon and mock the gullible "sheeple", was actually a far more fitting description of me and my friends. Those of us who "really" knew what was going on inside the secret Bilderberg & CFR meetings, were the enlightened ones, or see I thought. I viewed the people who thought I was a bit paranoid as useful idiots programmed to believe the party line.

Though I regularly discussed 9/11 in my attempt to wake people out of their stupor, my real hot button was "chemtrails". After quite a few years of study, I finally sent an email to about 100 friends warning them through a variety of videos and reports that we were being poisoned from the skies. So convinced was I that I was almost apoplectic. How could I continue to stand by in silence knowing that whatever the end-game was, these elite monsters were going to destroy us and our way of life forever? At this point it should be noted that although I believe there are some rather evil people lurking about, however, I question if all these things are the result of some grand all-pervasive conspiracy?

After sending that email, one of my old college buddies (now an SVP at a national bank) sent me a link to Mick's www.contrailscience.com, asking me to take a look. Absolutely convinced that the site was being run by a shill for the global elite, I nonetheless began to poke and prod in order to expose this rascal and prove to my friend that he was being conned. I remember being exasperated by Mick's cool, non-emotional demeanor. Mick, I surmised, was playing his part to perfection. How much were Mick his friends who sided with him, being paid for their "obvious" obfuscation, slight of hand and misdirection?

Trying to be intellectually honest in order to make certain I'd covered all my bases, though at the time I hadn't realized how closed-minded I had become, I was eventually hit with a few pieces of contrary evidence that caught my attention. Oxy, I think I spent at least 4 hours a day for a couple of weeks trying to debunk the debunkers, but admittedly I was losing ground. I realized how woefully ignorant I really was.

So, once this key cog in the NWO conspiracy machine began to jam, I decided to research other related conspiracies, but this time with a far more honest approach. Listen, I'm not in the least naive to the point where I think there wasn't prior knowledge of the attacks, but my standard of proof has risen. Just because I can't immediately explain something, should not cause me to conclude that a conspiracy is behind it. Did the Bush administration use 9/11 to their fullest advantage? Yes, I believe they did as proved by the passing of the Patriot Act and NDAA. Are the Batman and Sandy Hook massacres being used to their fullest extent by those wanting to disarm Americans? Yes, but that doesn't prove they were false flag operations. That's all I'm trying to say. I think those of us who recognize motives automatically assume that they must have been the perpetrators.

There is a mindset within the Patriot movement (Tea Party) in America, that assumes every negative event is intentionally designed by the "puppetmasters" to tighten the noose. And a great deal of it comes from Christian fundamentalists who believe that an anti-Christ led, one world government is a prophetic inevitability. So, the glasses with which a large segment of the US population is viewing these catastrophes, is definitely tinted.

NWO Glasses.jpg

So here's the point in all this. Confusion should not be a pretext to believe that something is conspiratorial. I was watching "Conspiracy Road Trip: UFO's" a few days ago, and people these people had become convinced that they we were under alien surveillance simply because there there things they could not explain. Nothing could be said to persuade them otherwise. So, yes, there area still many anomalies and oddities that have no explanations, and that, therefore, makes me ever vigilant but that doesn't necessitate that something nefarious is going on. Often times it's a cover-up of sheer ineptness which many of us mistake as intent.

My goal is to believe the truth. I don't want to be guilty of believing error and that's a double-edged sword, since there will be times when conspiracies will be worth exposing.

In this instance, I think we ought to take the testimony of men like Barry Jennings seriously. If what he heard were the detonations of planned explosives, that causes me to ask 3 questions:

1. Are we to believe these explosives were being used over a long period of time (which is unlike any demolition I've ever heard of) in order to begin weakening the building?

2. How could Jennings have made it out alive given the fact that he heard these explosions, if in fact they were part of a compact series that would bring the building down? I've never seen a controlled demolition that took so long after the first charges were detonated.

3. Wouldn't at least one of the video camera shots have picked up explosions in WTC7? Again, in all of the controlled demolitions I've watched, you can hear the blast concussions for seemingly miles. I don't hear anything of that magnitude in any of the tapes except for the fake that Mick exposed. LoL

What reasonable conclusions can we draw based upon Jenning's testimony? It doesn't add to the weight of the conspiracy if we cannot determine its proximate value.
 
And that cannot be true due to the existence of of high quality video such as I posted. You respond asininely with... 'oh the towers were still standing then' leaving me to decide whether you are being deliberately obtuse or incredibly stupid as the towers were quite obviously and blatantly 'still standing throughout the grainy colour washed and backgroundless live feeds' as well. Why would a news station cover up the impacts with fade to blacks or logos.
That's a nonsensical interpretation of my statement: "Right now neither of the towers has collapsed, there is no dust, and the helicopter from which this footage was taken was upwind at 2,000 feet, and well above the haze of sea and city. The air is very clear here".

I don't know what it means but it sure as hell does not make sense to me, which is why I asked.
And I'm only trying to help. But if your mind keeps refusing to deal with simple groups of words, there's no way I can.
 
Oxy, I am with you . . . there is a point where logic alone cannot explain reality . . . It is a personal journey . . . some will understand and many will not. . . . I will probably forever doubt the Official Story, maybe because I choose too. . . maybe because I subconsciously know something I cannot adequately articulate. . . .

My experience with confidential and undisclosed information which I have been privy to over my years is that it is usually withheld from the public to save embarrassment on the part of the authorities to protect political, moral or legal interests . . . political correctness also is a part of the decisions. . . I think this is a piece of the puzzle . . . . the 911 fiasco was a failure of bibical proportion at almost all levels. . . . our security people were asleep at the throttle as the railroad people would say. . . .

Thanks George... we are not alone... and the truth is out there... whether we manage to find it or not, it has a habit of coming out eventually.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...secution-mania--forced-abdication-crisis.html

External Quote:
[h=1]The madness of King Edward VIII: Shocking letters hidden for 76 years reveal Archbishop accused Monarch of insanity, alcoholism and persecution mania - and forced him into abdication crisis[/h]
"There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so".

I found this a very interesting discussion... it is an hour but it is only radio!

 
Thanks C for your response. I think it important that we try to understand 'where people are coming from', when we are discussing things and I try to give an idea of 'my politics' or where I am coming from, in my posts.

Of course it could be argued that politics has nothing to do with it as this site is about bunk... but as Mick said somewhere on site, 'it is called Metabunk which is obviously an abstractive addition.

Every last thing comes down to politics... one mans conspiracy is another man's 'great plan' the same as one man's freedom fighter is another s terrorist.

To some a new world order is (based on the American ideology) is great but to others it is an anathema.

That people are striving for and accomplishing a NWO is not in question... it is out in plain sight... the question is 'what is this NWO like'... who benefits and who loses... what does it cost and what will happen to people who will not go along?

Oxy, it was not a matter of a transition as much as it was finally realizing how gullible I had become. How ironic was it that the term I regularly used to lampoon and mock the gullible "sheeple", was actually a far more fitting description of me and my friends. Those of us who "really" knew what was going on inside the secret Bilderberg & CFR meetings, were the enlightened ones, or see I thought. I viewed the people who thought I was a bit paranoid as useful idiots programmed to believe the party line.

The fact is you have never really known what goes on at the Bilderberg or Bohemian Grove etc because as you stated, it is secret. I have asked many people if they have heard of these groups and 99% do not even know they exist, let alone what goes on there and how it likely impacts our lives. At best you can glean a few snippets from leakages or sneak filming.

Do you like that or does it concern you?

Though I regularly discussed 9/11 in my attempt to wake people out of their stupor, my real hot button was "chemtrails". After quite a few years of study, I finally sent an email to about 100 friends warning them through a variety of videos and reports that we were being poisoned from the skies. So convinced was I that I was almost apoplectic. How could I continue to stand by in silence knowing that whatever the end-game was, these elite monsters were going to destroy us and our way of life forever? At this point it should be noted that although I believe there are some rather evil people lurking about, however, I question if all these things are the result of some grand all-pervasive conspiracy?

I really cannot comment on Chemtrails... I suspect they are messing with the weather and I know full well they have sprayed pathogens to test the effects on the population but I leave that to others.

After sending that email, one of my old college buddies (now an SVP at a national bank) sent me a link to Mick's www.contrailscience.com, asking me to take a look. Absolutely convinced that the site was being run by a shill for the global elite, I nonetheless began to poke and prod in order to expose this rascal and prove to my friend that he was being conned. I remember being exasperated by Mick's cool, non-emotional demeanor. Mick, I surmised, was playing his part to perfection. How much were Mick his friends who sided with him, being paid for their "obvious" obfuscation, slight of hand and misdirection?

Trying to be intellectually honest in order to make certain I'd covered all my bases, though at the time I hadn't realized how closed-minded I had become, I was eventually hit with a few pieces of contrary evidence that caught my attention. Oxy, I think I spent at least 4 hours a day for a couple of weeks trying to debunk the debunkers, but admittedly I was losing ground. I realized how woefully ignorant I really was.

That's great... you learned. That is what I am trying to do as well. I like this site, If my ideas are flawed I want to know about it. I have no problem in being proved wrong, I fact I appreciate it someone shows me where I am wrong. But it cuts both ways, debunkers can be wrong as well and I notice that when they are, they 99% of the time will not acknowledge it.

So, once this key cog in the NWO conspiracy machine began to jam, I decided to research other related conspiracies, but this time with a far more honest approach. Listen, I'm not in the least naive to the point where I think there wasn't prior knowledge of the attacks, but my standard of proof has risen. Just because I can't immediately explain something, should not cause me to conclude that a conspiracy is behind it.

So you research... and if it still makes no sense and the OS is full of holes, your country goes to war on lies, millions are killed and maimed, the people behind it get richer and more powerful, your country goes into massive debt due to fraud by companies who's directors get paid obscene profits salaries and bonuses, (instead of going to prison), the 'normal' people bail out the companies with their taxes and millions slide into homelessness and poverty and then find their way into private prisons where they make stuff for the industrial military complex and you wind up living in a surveillance culture where you are constantly monitored and suspected ... what do you conclude?

Did the Bush administration use 9/11 to their fullest advantage? Yes, I believe they did as proved by the passing of the Patriot Act and NDAA. Are the Batman and Sandy Hook massacres being used to their fullest extent by those wanting to disarm Americans? Yes, but that doesn't prove they were false flag operations. That's all I'm trying to say. I think those of us who recognize motives automatically assume that they must have been the perpetrators.

Motive and opportunity. Of couse some theories will be wrong but going back to the magic disappearing elephant... I know it's not real and therefore theorise on how it was done... it's shown that I am wrong... what do I do... must I concede it is real because I cannot prove how it was done?



There is a mindset within the Patriot movement (Tea Party) in America, that assumes every negative event is intentionally designed by the "puppetmasters" to tighten the noose. And a great deal of it comes from Christian fundamentalists who believe that an anti-Christ led, one world government is a prophetic inevitability. So, the glasses with which a large segment of the US population is viewing these catastrophes, is definitely tinted.

View attachment 1860

Everyone has their viewpoint. If they were getting their way and engineering a more and more xtian fundamentalist culture, they would love the NWO based on their model. Others would be up in arms about that NWO.

So here's the point in all this. Confusion should not be a pretext to believe that something is conspiratorial.

There are millions of conspiracies going on from regime changes and price fixing cartels to money laundering by the banks and the CIA... right down to the kids conspiring how to stay up later... these are not theories.

I was watching "Conspiracy Road Trip: UFO's" a few days ago, and people these people had become convinced that they we were under alien surveillance simply because there there things they could not explain. Nothing could be said to persuade them otherwise. So, yes, there area still many anomalies and oddities that have no explanations, and that, therefore, makes me ever vigilant but that doesn't necessitate that something nefarious is going on. Often times it's a cover-up of sheer ineptness which many of us mistake as intent.

Maybe there are aliens, maybe not... I think there likely is but I can't prove it. Even if I sat down with one for 6 hours and it showed me amazing things, if it left nothing tangible I could not prove it.

My goal is to believe the truth. I don't want to be guilty of believing error and that's a double-edged sword, since there will be times when conspiracies will be worth exposing.

We have all been decieved at various points in our lives, lies and truth are sometimes so interwoven and subjective that it is impossible to define... sorry to get all metaphysical but it is true :) or is it? We never learn if we do not make mistakes and we must trust to some degree or we would go insane... but to trust abjectly is out and out wrong... not to question is wrong.

In this instance, I think we ought to take the testimony of men like Barry Jennings seriously. If what he heard were the detonations of planned explosives, that causes me to ask 3 questions:

1. Are we to believe these explosives were being used over a long period of time (which is unlike any demolition I've ever heard of) in order to begin weakening the building?

Yes, good question. There are some who say that. I don't think this is fake... but I may be wrong and if I am I can live with it.



2. How could Jennings have made it out alive given the fact that he heard these explosions, if in fact they were part of a compact series that would bring the building down? I've never seen a controlled demolition that took so long after the first charges were detonated.
I don't know... many people claim explosions... some people have been quoted out of context on this issue which makes it all the more difficult to validate the ones who were not misquoted. Some have lied. But there are a lot that sound very genuine.


3. Wouldn't at least one of the video camera shots have picked up explosions in WTC7? Again, in all of the controlled demolitions I've watched, you can hear the blast concussions for seemingly miles. I don't hear anything of that magnitude in any of the tapes except for the fake that Mick exposed. LoL
It's back to the elephant I am afraid. Time will tell.
What reasonable conclusions can we draw based upon Jenning's testimony? It doesn't add to the weight of the conspiracy if we cannot determine its proximate value.

The link I posted with his quote, disputes his timing but it seems too big a difference for him to actually be that far out.
 
Thanks for those comments, Oxy. It really helps as a debunker to see what is your point and that you have have questions that need to be answered.


To me, this is why Metabunk is the best debunking website in the world. It is not biased on an opinion, but we actually get 2 sides of the story, and despite having different political ideologys in mind, we can actually get along pretty well to understand their point if we actually give it a chance. This is not something I see on other skeptic blogs.
 
Also, Clock, I don't give a damn about Larry, aside from thinking a him a deplorably greedy man for going to court with his insurer fighting for the right to receive double the pay-out for the collapse of each of the buildings, given 'two separate planes constitutes two separate attacks', and his policy in regards to terrorism payed out 'per attack'. I also find the timing of his taking out that insurance policy somewhat suspect, given he started it two months prior to the event. If he didn't have some idea of what was going to happen, then he just 'got lucky', which is a disgusting thought in and of itself.

Also, which fire department commander was Larry talking too..? I haven't ever once seen this fellow named, nor has he ever come forward and said 'yep, I had that conversation, and nope, that's not what he meant.'
Just saying.

I agree. Barry Jennings described how a bomb exploded in WTC7 prior to the south tower coming down. There are hundreds of small yet significant elements of 9/11, before, during, and after the actual attacks, that to me point to inside planning and orchestration. I cannot quite understand how anyone who has looked into this event for over an hour could come to any other conclusion. Well, I can: it's due to the complexities of the response of the human brain to cognitive dissonance. However, overwhelming evidence is out there and should enable individuals with a high enough IQ to break through that dissonance and reconcile it by formulating a new world view.
 
I agree. Barry Jennings described how a bomb exploded in WTC7 prior to the south tower coming down. There are hundreds of small yet significant elements of 9/11, before, during, and after the actual attacks, that to me point to inside planning and orchestration. I cannot quite understand how anyone who has looked into this event for over an hour could come to any other conclusion. Well, I can: it's due to the complexities of the response of the human brain to cognitive dissonance. However, overwhelming evidence is out there and should enable individuals with a high enough IQ to break through that dissonance and reconcile it by formulating a new world view.

Barry Jennings heard explosions, which is quite expected, given what was going on (large fires, things falling 1000 feet).

The only explosions that might relate to an actual demolition would be those in the seconds before it. Like this:

 
Yes, it's been explained numerous times. Explanations abound. All over the internet, bookstores, and libraries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_World_Trade_Center
External Quote:
The fires burned out of control during the afternoon, causing floor beams near column 79 to expand and push a key girder off its seat, triggering the floors to fail around column 79 on Floors 8 to 14. With a loss of lateral support across nine floors, column 79 buckled – pulling the east penthouse and nearby columns down with it. With the buckling of these critical columns, the collapse then progressed east-to-west across the core, ultimately overloading the perimeter support, which buckled between Floors 7 and 17, causing the remaining portion of the building above to fall downward as a single unit.
WTC7-NIST-Simulation-with-Impact-damage.gif


What do you find lacking in these explanations?

Apart from the figures they used in their computer model and a list or at least one example where the interior falls without it being seen externally until the facade falls at near free fall straight down into virtually it's own footprint or another example where one key girder failure resulted in a perfect example of a controlled demolition?

Nothing really. It makes perfect sense to those who want to believe that.
 
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Did the Bush administration use 9/11 to their fullest advantage? Yes, I believe they did as proved by the passing of the Patriot Act and NDAA. Are the Batman and Sandy Hook massacres being used to their fullest extent by those wanting to disarm Americans? Yes, but that doesn't prove they were false flag operations. That's all I'm trying to say. I think those of us who recognize motives automatically assume that they must have been the perpetrators.
You must understand though that there is a major difference between a senseless act of violence being used to promote a discussion of sensible policies, and an extremely, almost suspiciously well coordinated act of terror being used to promote a massive campaign of senseless violence. The first is so reasonable as to make the conspiracy theories surrounding it seem ludicrous. The latter is so ludicrous as to make the conspiracy theories surrounding it seem entirely reasonable. The first, were it a planned conspiracy, would require motivations so evil and convoluted as to boggle the mind. The latter, were it a planned conspiracy, is laden with evident and abundant motive I need not list, not the least of which is buckets and buckets of money.... something for which far greater crimes have been committed in the past.
 
You must understand though that there is a major difference between a senseless act of violence being used to promote a discussion of sensible policies, and an extremely, almost suspiciously well coordinated act of terror being used to promote a massive campaign of senseless violence. The first is so reasonable as to make the conspiracy theories surrounding it seem ludicrous. The latter is so ludicrous as to make the conspiracy theories surrounding it seem entirely reasonable. The first, were it a planned conspiracy, would require motivations so evil and convoluted as to boggle the mind. The latter, were it a planned conspiracy, is laden with evident and abundant motive I need not list, not the least of which is buckets and buckets of money.... something for which far greater crimes have been committed in the past.

Well, one killed a hundred times as many people as the other, perhaps the conspiracy motives would be similarly proportional in evil? Is gun control 1/100th the evil of profiting from war?

I'm not sure what exactly is "extremely, almost suspiciously well coordinated" about 9/11? They arranged to catch planes within a few hours of each other. Is that so hard? It's about as well coordinated as a company ski trip.
 
Well, one killed a hundred times as many people as the other, perhaps the conspiracy motives would be similarly proportional in evil? Is gun control 1/100th the evil of profiting from war?

I'm not sure what exactly is "extremely, almost suspiciously well coordinated" about 9/11? They arranged to catch planes within a few hours of each other. Is that so hard? It's about as well coordinated as a company ski trip.

http://www.9-11commission.gov/hearings/hearing1/witness_kleinberg.htm

External Quote:
Is it luck that aberrant stock trades were not monitored? Is it luck when 15 visas are awarded based on incomplete forms? Is it luck when Airline Security screenings allow hijackers to board planes with box cutters and pepper spray? Is it luck when Emergency FAA and NORAD protocols are not followed? Is it luck when a national emergency is not reported to top government officials on a timely basis?

To me luck is something that happens once. When you have this repeated pattern of broken protocols, broken laws, broken communication, one cannot still call it luck.
If at some point we don't look to hold the individuals accountable for not doing their jobs properly then how can we ever expect for terrorists not to get lucky again?
And, that is why I am here with all of you today. Because, we must find the answers as to what happened that day so as to ensure that another September 11th can never happen again.
Commissioners, I implore you to answer our questions. You are the Generals in the terrorism fight on our shores. In answering our questions, you have the ability to make this nation a safer place and in turn, minimize the damage if there is another terrorist attack. And, if there is another attack, the next time, our systems will be in place and working and luck will not be an issue.
Mindy Kleinberg is a founding member of September 11th Advocates, a family advocacy group that spearheaded the grassroots effort for the establishment of the independent commission on September 11th.
Her husband Alan Kleinberg was a NASDAQ security trader with Cantor Fitzgerald in the NorthTower of the WTC on the 104th Floor. He was 39 and had been a NASDAQ security trader for 15 years.
Mrs. Kleinberg is a Certified Public Accountant. She met her husband when they both worked at Deloitte-Touche, but she left the accounting profession to become a stay-at-home mom. She lives in New Jersey with her three children; Jacob 11; Lauren 8 and Sam 4.

And apparently the answer is, 'The American people will need to lose their civil rights and be subjected to intense scrutiny and surveillance.'

Who says 'Terrorism doesn't work'?
 
Many individuals separately circumventing the practices and procedures that should have kept them out of the most well defended country on the planet, learning to fly and then simultaneously hijacking four separate airliners using nothing but the most rudimentary weaponry, and proceeding to crash those planes, in very short succession, into multiple targets is CONSIDERABLY more complex and coordinated than a company ski-trip. That you of all people would make such a comparison is pretty damn disheartening.
I'd challenge you to name a more coordinated terrorist attack in the history of mankind.
Well, one killed a hundred times as many people as the other, perhaps the conspiracy motives would be similarly proportional in evil? Is gun control 1/100th the evil of profiting from war?
The difference being there is no readily apparent motivation for murdering a bunch of children just to establish gun-control law. There's no 'cause' for such an action other than establishing some Orwellian nightmare of a police-state, and frankly I think Orwell got it all wrong, and his predecessor and in many ways mentor Huxley was far closer to the mark. The notion that every facet of American government and media is directly controlled by some Satanical fascist elite who want to take away your guns so they can literally enslave you is pretty far out there.
Whereas with 9/11, although the crime itself is far more heinous, the motivations behind it being a conspiracy need not be so Orwellian. It doesn't need to be every facet of the government and media conspiring to enslave the people. No mysterious syndicate of satanic Illuminati is required. All that's needed are key individuals in positions of high power working in coordination with the defense contractors who stand to gain the most. Dick Cheney, easily the most powerful VP in the history of VPs, is one such potential individual, who had the station, the influence, the connections, and the monetary (not to mention ideological) motive. His behavior surrounding 9/11 was also suspect.
 
Many individuals separately circumventing the practices and procedures that should have kept them out of the most well defended country on the planet, learning to fly and then simultaneously hijacking four separate airliners using nothing but the most rudimentary weaponry, and proceeding to crash those planes, in very short succession, into multiple targets is CONSIDERABLY more complex and coordinated than a company ski-trip. That you of all people would make such a comparison is pretty damn disheartening.
I'd challenge you to name a more coordinated terrorist attack in the history of mankind.

Terrorist attacks in general require very little coordination. This was the biggest terrorist attack ever, so yes, it's the most coordinated, but that's not saying much.

Many people getting into the country does not require coordination. It just requires that you get enough people into the country. They can meet up after.

Learning to fly does not need coordination. It just needs enough people to learn to fly.

Simultaneous hijacking is what I referred to as ski-trip complexity. Again, it just requires that they book flights that leave around the same time.

The implication of it being "suspiciously well coordinated" is that they needed outside help. Where exactly do you think they needed outside help?
 
(I tried to quote but it kept quoting the first comment on the page and not the one I wanted- sorry- probably user (me) error)


Grieves said: "nothing but the most rudimentary weaponry"


People often latch onto that theme- "4 guys with box cutters defeated the most heavily defended country in the world"- But considering how easy it was to get on a plane with said box cutters...and the fact that no US plane on (or over) US soil had been hijacked in over 20yrs, its quite easy to see how people were completely surprised and taken off guard by the hijackings. Moreover, since most hijackings involved landing and making demands- and indeed the hijackers said that was what they were going to do- its easy to understand how they got control of the planes and why first response wasn't to shoot them down.
 
overwhelming evidence is out there and should enable individuals with a high enough IQ to break through that dissonance and reconcile it by formulating a new world view.
That "new world view" had better include an understanding of civil structural stability, or it's a dead duck, whether one's IQ is high or low...

With that understanding comes a withering of desire to see any conspiracy in the collapse of a building of fifty long-span floors, slung between slender columns, standing on a bridge beam, all with two-hour fire insulation, which had been exposed to uncontrolled peripatetic fire for seven hours.

The "new world view" we all appear to desperately need is called "science".

Individuals with higher IQs don't suffer any "dissonance" with that idea.
 
Terrorist attacks in general require very little coordination.
How so, exactly..? I'd think most successful terrorist attacks would take a very high degree of coordination, from inception to execution.
 
How so, exactly..? I'd think most successful terrorist attacks would take a very high degree of coordination, from inception to execution.

Because it's a small number of people. Sure it takes a lot of planning with those people, but how hard is that? Have you ever planned a wedding?
 
How many thousands of folks get visas every year? How many folks take flying lessons every year? The shear numbers made it possible. You start with a larger group than you need, and those that fail, are sent somewhere else. They were one hijacker short anyway. I am not even sure that box cutters were on a prohibited list at that time. They were looking for guns, not box cutters.

I remember that some felt that ONLY the pilots on the planes knew exactly what the plan was. That is 4 folks, add in some direction and maybe a dozen folks knew the entire plan, if that many. One way to keep a secret is not let many know the entire plan.

Say that you want to plan a surprise birthday party for you spouse. You know that their mom and a friend are not good at keeping secrets. You invite the mom and tell her that you are having a special dinner for your spouse --that is what you tell your spouse also. You come up with something you need her friend to do, to get them to come over.

It seems simple to me
 
(I tried to quote but it kept quoting the first comment on the page and not the one I wanted- sorry- probably user (me) error)


Grieves said: "nothing but the most rudimentary weaponry"


People often latch onto that theme- "4 guys with box cutters defeated the most heavily defended country in the world"- But considering how easy it was to get on a plane with said box cutters...and the fact that no US plane on (or over) US soil had been hijacked in over 20yrs, its quite easy to see how people were completely surprised and taken off guard by the hijackings. Moreover, since most hijackings involved landing and making demands- and indeed the hijackers said that was what they were going to do- its easy to understand how they got control of the planes and why first response wasn't to shoot them down.

So why exactly would someone want to carry a "box cutter' on a plane?

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500164_162-528967.html

External Quote:
A manual written by the airline industry years before the Sept. 11 attacks instructed airport screeners to confiscate from passengers boxcutters like those used by the hijackers, documents show.

Though the federal government did not specifically bar the objects before Sept. 11, the airlines were in charge of security and the manual they compiled was the guidebook for determining what items could be brought aboard flights.

The instructions were part of the Checkpoint Operations Guide, a manual issued by the Air Transport Association, which represents the major airlines, and the Regional Airline Association, the trade group for smaller carriers. The groups issued the guide to carry out Federal Aviation Administration regulations.

A copy of the 1994 manual was obtained by The Associated Press.
http://www.9-11commission.gov/hearings/hearing1/witness_kleinberg.htm

External Quote:
The terrorist's lucky streak began the week before September 11th with the Securities and Exchange Commission, or SEC. The SEC, in concert with the United States intelligence agencies, has sophisticated software programs that are used in "real-time" to watch both domestic and overseas markets to seek out trends that may indicate a present or future crime.
External Quote:
These investors netted a profit of at least $5 million after the September 11th attacks. Interestingly, the names of the investors remain undisclosed and the $5 million remains unclaimed in the Chicago Exchange account.

And before you cite the investigation concludes no insider trading... please ascertain who owns and why the $5M remains unclaimed.

External Quote:
Prior to 9/11, our US intelligence agencies should have stopped the 19 terrorists from entering this country for intelligence reasons, alone. However, their failure to do so in 19 instances does not negate the luck involved for the terrorists when it comes to their visa applications and our Immigration and Naturalization Service, or INS.

With regard to the INS, the terrorists got lucky 15 individual times, because 15 of the 19 hijackers' visas should have been unquestionably denied.

External Quote:
Yet these 19 young single, unemployed, "classic overstay candidates still received their visas." I am holding in my hand the applications of the terrorists who killed my husband. All of these forms are incomplete and incorrect.
External Quote:
On the morning of September 11th, the terrorists' luck commenced with airline and airport security. When the 19 hijackers went to purchase their tickets (with cash and/or credit cards) and to receive their boarding passes, nine were singled out and questioned through a screening process. Luckily for those nine terrorists, they passed the screening process and were allowed to continue on with their mission.

But, the terrorist's luck didn't end at the ticket counter; it also accompanied them through airport security, as well. Because how else would the hijackers get specifically contraband items such as box-cutters, pepper spray or, according to one FAA executive summary, a gun on those planes?
Finally, sadly for us, years of GAO recommendations to secure cockpit doors were ignored making it all too easy for the hijackers to gain access to the flight controls and carryout their suicide mission.

Don't know how they would have fared as wedding planners?
 
Apart from the figures they used in their computer model and a list or at least one example where the interior falls without it being seen externally until the facade falls at near free fall straight down into virtually it's own footprint or another example where one key girder failure resulted in a perfect example of a controlled demolition?

Nothing really. It makes perfect sense to those who want to believe that.

No answers... interesting.
 
I remember that some felt that ONLY the pilots on the planes knew exactly what the plan was. That is 4 folks, add in some direction and maybe a dozen folks knew the entire plan, if that many. One way to keep a secret is not let many know the entire plan.

Say that you want to plan a surprise birthday party for you spouse. You know that their mom and a friend are not good at keeping secrets. You invite the mom and tell her that you are having a special dinner for your spouse --that is what you tell your spouse also. You come up with something you need her friend to do, to get them to come over.

It seems simple to me
Right. It's simple- heck, even easy for AlQueda to execute complex, well coordinated attacks on America with minimal information shared and a minimal number of parties involved... as easy as, say, planning a wedding or a surprise birthday party.
Do you guys hear yourselves?
Have you forgotten your own arguments about how impossible it would be to coordinate an attack of this nature from the inside without thousands of thousands of people being in on it?
I can hear the response now, "There's a difference between terrorists flying planes into buildings and internal enemies planting bombs in them!" Right, right... one's easy as pie, the other is entirely impossible...
 
I can hear the response now, "There's a difference between terrorists flying planes into buildings and internal enemies planting bombs in them!" Right, right... one's easy as pie, the other is entirely impossible...

One matches the observed events perfectly. One does not.
 
One matches the observed events perfectly. One does not.
Right. Because nobody who observed the events suspects building 7 of being demolished but a few fringe weirdos.
Seriously man...?
What about building 7 abruptly collapsing, an event which took 7 years for any reasonable hypothesis besides explosives to be presented, fits 'perfectly'? If it fit 'perfectly', they'd have been able to explain it in short order.
 
Right. Because nobody who observed the events suspects building 7 of being demolished but a few fringe weirdos.
Seriously man...?
What about building 7 abruptly collapsing, an event which took 7 years for any reasonable hypothesis besides explosives to be presented, fits 'perfectly'? If it fit 'perfectly', they'd have been able to explain it in short order.

It was immediately explained. There was a large uncontrolled fire, which made the building collapse.

And it did not "abruptly" collapse, the building was sagging some time before the collapse, which is why they pulled everyone away from it.
 
So why exactly would someone want to carry a "box cutter' on a plane?

To hijack it.

It would seem like a trivial thing to get through security, even if they were actively looking for it. Consider that you were allowed to bring on a pocket knife with a four inch blade.
 
It was immediately explained.
Not according to NIST, or any of the other investigative bodies, who had not and did not come to any conclusions about what had happened for several years.

There was a large uncontrolled fire, which made the building collapse.
In an entirely strange and wholly unprecedented manner, which distinctly resembled a demolition. This deserves no consideration though, I suppose.

And it did not "abruptly" collapse, the building was sagging some time before the collapse, which is why they pulled everyone away from it.
Right. The eye-witness reports of the building sagging. Which, though being no more numerous, are infinitely more valid than the eye-witness reports of explosions. Doesn't change the nature of the collapse itself, though... which was unquestionably very abrupt.
 
Not according to NIST, or any of the other investigative bodies, who had not and did not come to any conclusions about what had happened for several years.

In an entirely strange and wholly unprecedented manner, which distinctly resembled a demolition. This deserves no consideration though, I suppose.


Right. The eye-witness reports of the building sagging. Which, though being no more numerous, are infinitely more valid than the eye-witness reports of explosions. Doesn't change the nature of the collapse itself, though... which was unquestionably very abrupt.

They did not come to conclusions as to EXACTLY what happened. Why would they? Should they have immediately have been able to find out exactly which column collapsed? No. But to suggest they had no "reasonable hypothesis besides explosives" is ridiculous. The hypotesis was immediately "fire", or "fire combined with WTC debris damage".

And the reports of sounds resembling explosions are quite valid. And fit in with the observed events (fire, things falling from 1000 feet)
 
And the reports of sounds resembling explosions are quite valid. And fit in with the observed events (fire, things falling from 1000 feet)

A prominent Emergency worker discussing his experience inside of building 7. Died in 2008 at age 53, circumstances undisclosed. He's just confused though, right?
 

A prominent Emergency worker discussing his experience inside of building 7. Died in 2008 at age 53, circumstances undisclosed. He's just confused though, right?


No, he heard explosions. Lots of people did. There's were fires and things falling. A part of WTC1 fall on WTC7.

http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Barry_Jennings#Transcript_from_interview
External Quote:

[h=2]Transcript from interview[/h]"When we arrived, the police were in the lobby... Me and Mr. Hess who I didn't know at the time... [got] to the 23rd floor... we couldn't get in. We had to go back down, then police and security took us to the freight elevators where they took us back up and we did get in.
Upon arriving into the OAM POC, we noticed that everybody was gone... only me and Mr. Hess were up there. After I called several individuals, one individual told me to leave and leave right away. Mr. Hess came running back in and said, "We're the only ones up here, we gotta get out of here."
He found the stairwell... we went down the stairs. When we reached the sixth floor... there was an explosion and the landing gave way. I was left there hanging and I had to climb back up and I had to walk back up to the 8th floor... it was dark and very very hot. I asked Mr. Hess to test the phones as I took a fire extinguisher and broke out the windows.
Once I broke out the windows I could see outside below me. I saw police cars on fire, buses on fire. I looked one way, the building was there, I looked the other, the building was gone. I was trapped in there for several hours. I was trapped in there when both buildings came down.
The firefighters came. I was going to come down on the fire hose, because I didn't want to stay there because it was too hot; they came to the window and started yelling "do not do that, it won't hold you". And then they ran away. I didn't know what was going on. That's when the first tower fell.
When they started running, the first tower started coming down. I had no way of knowing that. And then I saw them come back... with more concern on their faces. And then they ran away again. The second tower fell.
So as they turned and ran the second time, the guy said "We'll be back for you". And they did come back, this time they came back with 10 firefighters. They kept asking "where are you? We don't know where you are?" I said "I was on the North side of the building," because when I was on the stairs I saw the North side. All this time, I'm hearing all kinds of explosions. I'm thinking that may it's the police cars [and] buses that are on fire. I don't see.. you know, but I'm still hearing all these explosions.
When they finally got to us, and they took us down to what they called the lobby, because when I asked them, I said "Where are we?" He said, "This was the lobby." And I said, "You got to be kidding me." Total ruins. Keep in mind, when I came in there, the lobby had nice escalators--it was a huge lobby. And for me to see what I saw was unbelievable.
And the firefighter who took us down kept saying, "Do not look down." I kept saying, "Why?" We were stepping over people. And you know when you can feel when you are stepping over people. They took us out through a hole... in this wall, and that's how they got us out... this huge police officer came over to me and he said, "You have to run". I said, "I can't, my knees are swollen". [He said] "You'll have to get on your knees and crawl then, because we have reports of more explosions." That's when I started crawling and I saw this guy fall behind me, and his comrades came to his aid and they dragged him to safety." [1]
[h=3]Second interview[/h]"Upon arriving into the OEM EOC, we noticed that everybody was gone," said Jennings. "I saw coffee that was on the desk, the smoke was still coming off the coffee, I saw half-eaten sandwiches," he stated, adding that he and Hess were told to leave the building right away.
Jennings and Hess found a stairwell and descended the stairs.
"When we reached the 6th floor the landing that we were standing on gave way, there was an explosion and the landing gave way, I was left there hanging, I had to climb back up and walk back up to the 8th floor," said Jennings.
"The explosion was beneath me….so when the explosion happened it blew us back….both buildings (the twin towers) were still standing," he added.
"I was trapped in there for several hours, I was trapped in there when both buildings came down - all this time I'm hearing all kinds of explosions, all this time I'm hearing explosions, said Jennings, adding that when firefighters took them down to the lobby it was in "total ruins".
"For me to see what I saw was unbelievable," said Jennings.
The firefighters kept saying to Jennings "do not look down" because, according to Jennings, "we were stepping over people and you can tell when you're stepping over people."
A police officer then told Jennings, "you will have to run because we have reports of more explosions."
"I'm just confused about one thing….why World Trade Center 7 went down in the first place - I'm very confused about that - I know what I heard I heard explosions," said Jennings, adding that the explanation that the explosions were as a result of fuel oil tanks in the building did not add up.
"I'm an old boiler guy, if it was a fuel oil tank it would have been one side of the building," he stated. [2]


 
there was an explosion and the landing gave way. I was left there hanging and I had to climb back up and I had to walk back up to the 8th floor...it was dark and very very hot.
"When we reached the 6th floor the landing that we were standing on gave way, there was an explosion and the landing gave way, I was left there hanging, I had to climb back up and walk back up to the 8th floor," said Jennings.
"The explosion was beneath me….so when the explosion happened it blew us back….both buildings (the twin towers) were still standing," he added.
He describes experiencing an explosion within WTC7, which came from below... one that damaged the stairwell he was in severely, threw him off his feet, and left him in hot darkness... all prior to the towers collapsing, and thus before any major damage was dealt to the building from that source.
 
No, he heard explosions. Lots of people did. There's were fires and things falling. A part of WTC1 fall on WTC7.
I'm surprised to see you referencing a transcript and yet failing/refusing to absorb key details therein.
 
He describes experiencing an explosion within WTC7, which came from below... one that damaged the stairwell he was in severely, threw him off his feet, and left him in hot darkness... all prior to the towers collapsing, and thus before any major damage was dealt to the building from that source.

The 8th floor "explosion" was the WTC1 collapse and debris striking the building, according to Mr. Hess, who was with him.

See also:

 
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