Were the conspiracy theorist right about Fluoride?

[Soulfly]

Also once in solution, a fluoride ion is a fluoride ion. That means once in the water supply the fluoride from hexafluorosilicic acid is indistinguishable from the fluoride in sodium fluoride. The action from drinking fluoride and using say toothpaste is not the same. There is some overlap but they do not serve the same function. When you drink fluoridated water the fluoride ions stay in your saliva and act in a completely different way than a brief exposure to toothpaste or the like.

Fluoride in drinking water provides remineralisation, fluoropatite and bacterial acid inhibition. Fluoridated toothpaste provides fluoropalite and bacterial biofilm removal.

 

[Grieves]

The lethal dose for a 70 kg (154 lb) human is estimated at 5–10 g.

LD50 value of hexafluorosilicic acid is 70 mg/kg.

First off, Wiki is not the most reliable source of clinical data. Second, clinical data on hexafluorosilicic acid is very scarce. Third, there are 1000 mg's in a g. 1000 g's in a kg. If a lethal dose of hexafluorisilicic acid can actually be gauged based on a mg's per kg's basis (something I find doubtful), then that figure suggests that 4900 mg's of hexafluorosilicic acid would be a lethal dose in a 70 kg human. That's 4-5 grams roughly. A fairly big step down from 5-10 grams, unless I've completely botched my math. Should count toward Dan's question as well.

That means once in the water supply the fluoride from hexafluorosilicic acid is indistinguishable from the fluoride in sodium fluoride.

What proof do you have that Sodium fluoride and hexafluorosilicic acid behave the same way within the human body when mixed with water?

 

[Soulfly]

The Ld50 for a human will be different than that of a rat or mouse. You are comparing the Ld50 of a human to Ld50 to a rat or mouse.

 

[Soulfly]

Hexafluorosilicic acid

LD50​

430 mg/kg (oral, rat)

Sodium fluoride

LD50​

52–200 mg/kg (oral in rats, mice, rabbits)[3]​

 

[Grieves]

Well, there's clearly an inconsistency on the wiki page you're citing if the LD50 is listed at 70mg/kg in one section, 430 mg/kg in another.

 

[Soulfly]

What proof do you have that Sodium fluoride and hexafluorosilicic acid behave the same way within the human body when mixed with water?

That is not what I am saying. I am saying that once you put those two chemicals into water the fluoride ions in the water are indistinguishable. Take two barrels with water, pour the hexa acid into one and the sodium into the other and then do a chemical test on the fluoride ions and you wouldn't know which barrel had which chemical in it just by the test.

The video I originally posted explains it all quite well. You can download his references for verification as well.yourself.

 

[Soulfly]

Well, there's clearly an inconsistency on the wiki page you're citing if the LD50 is listed at 70mg/kg in one section, 430 mg/kg in another.

The reference for that Ld50 70mg/kg [9] doesn't work and [10] is a caffeine report. Clearly something is not right with that data.

 

[Soulfly]

LD50 (Oral, rat) = 410 mg/kg.

http://www.csbp.com.au/Media/MSDS/AN/MSDS_Fluorosilicic_Acid.aspx

LD50/LC50:
CAS# 7681-49-4:
Draize test, rabbit, eye: 20 mg/24H Moderate;
Oral, mouse: LD50 = 44 mg/kg;
Oral, rabbit: LD50 = 200 mg/kg;
Oral, rat: LD50 = 31 mg/kg;

http://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/21230.htm

 

[Grieves]

The ions may be indistinguishable, but that doesn't mean that if I were to take a big mug from one of the barrels, you were to take a big mug from the other, and we both drank them down quickly, that the different solutions would have the same effect on our bodies. That would be like suggesting drinking lemonade and drinking lemon-scented floor-cleaner would have the same effect on the body, as both contain ascorbic acid. I don't see the relevance of indistinguishable ions in different solutions. The solutions remain different. Perhaps I'm missing something.

 

[Soulfly]

If you want to claim some of the other things in those two solutions are harmful then provide some evidence of that. I'm only saying that the fluoride is the same once in solution.

 

[Cairenn]

Lemonade and lemon scent are not the same thing.

 

[Grieves]

Lemonade and lemon scent are not the same thing.

Calcium fluoride, sodium fluoride, and Haxafluorosilicic acid are not the same thing either.

 

[Jazzy]

Calcium fluoride, sodium fluoride, and Hexafluorosilicic acid are not the same thing either.

The fluoride ions (which is what each of these compounds makes when dissolved in water) cannot be distinguished one from another. What is difficult about that?

The topic of 'fluoride' concerns itself solely with the effects of the fluoride ions. The metal ions that may (or may not) accompany them, have nothing to do with these effects.

 

[Dan Wilson]

Calcium fluoride, sodium fluoride, and Haxafluorosilicic acid are not the same thing either.

Put it this way. This is simplified.

NaF + H2O ----> Na+ + F- + H2O

Na2SiF6 + H20 --------> Na2SiF5 + F- + H2O

H2SiF6 + H2O ------> H2SiF5 + F- + H2O

Your active ingredient in all cases is the F- ion, it is a good leaving group so it can easily dissociate from the parent compound in solution. I think what you're trying to say is that having SiF5 left over makes it more toxic. I don't see any reason why it would be, but this whole time we have been talking about the role of the active ingredient, fluoride. Anything you would want to know about the compound is here.

http://www.chemspider.com/Chemical-Structure.26155.html

This has gotten a little off topic from what we were discussing earlier, though. We have been able to agree that more research on water fluoridation should be done, but what evidence suggests that Dr. Marcus is right? What demonstrates a link between water fluoridation and significantly detrimental side-effects?

 

[Soulfly]

I've already showed hexafluorisilicic acid is less toxic than sodium fluoride. Calcium fluoride is less toxic than hexafluorosilicic acid.

http://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/65042.htm
LD50/LC50:
CAS# 7789-75-5:
Oral, rat: LD50 = 4250 mg/kg;
Oral, rat: LD50 = 4417 mg/kg;

Out of the three, Sodium fluoride is the most toxic.

 

[Dan Wilson]

I've already showed hexafluorisilicic acid is less toxic than sodium fluoride. Calcium fluoride is less toxic than hexafluorosilicic acid.

http://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/65042.htm
LD50/LC50:
CAS# 7789-75-5:
Oral, rat: LD50 = 4250 mg/kg;
Oral, rat: LD50 = 4417 mg/kg;

Out of the three, Sodium fluoride is the most toxic.

It's probably because NaF is practically pure fluoride ions, as the sodium is just a spectator. On the other hand, the other compounds will be in an equilibrium with the ion and original compound with a comparatively lower keq value, so you would have less active fluoride ions in solution at any one time than you would with NaF.

 

[Soulfly]

All three are certified NSF/ANSI standard 60 drinking water chemicals that must meet the same exact standards.
http://www.nsf.org/business/water_distribution/pdf/NSF_Fact_Sheet.pdf

 

[Soulfly]

Maybe another way to debunk the chemical byproduct angle is to see if there are any other chemical byproducts that are used in good ways. I'm not scared just because something is a byproduct, chemical or natural. I need evidence it is bad.

 

[Jazzy]

Have you ever asked yourself "Are there any fluoride ions in seawater"?