Transients in the Palomar Observatory Sky Survey

A $150K RFP hosted on ResearchHub will fund independent searches of other observatories' pre-Sputnik plates. It opens October 15.
Some relevant details:
External Quote:
Applications are required to be submitted as pre-registrations on ResearchHub.
External Quote:
Null and refuting results are equally eligible.
External Quote:
Researchers already published on the Palomar transient phenomenon are not eligible to compete.
So each study is pre-registered and searches a different archive. The RFP also asks for data and analysis code to be published openly. A null result is as eligible as a positive one. Citizen scientists can apply. If you've built your own pipeline and haven't published on the transients, you may qualify. Full eligibility rules, award sizes and deadlines will be published October 15: https://www.researchhub.com/grant/32931/coming-soon-project-lost-light
 
When I post a piece debunking a prominent UFO case (the only such piece on that case that I am aware of), I'm glad to see people concentrating on important things, like the misspelling of a foreign name.

I also misspelled "Alvan Clark" as "Alvin Clark."

Now, does anyone have any reply of substance?
 
When I post a piece debunking a prominent UFO case (the only such piece on that case that I am aware of), I'm glad to see people concentrating on important things, like the misspelling of a foreign name.

I also misspelled "Alvan Clark" as "Alvin Clark."

Now, does anyone have any reply of substance?
The politeness of spelling someone's name correctly is of substance.
 
Now, does anyone have any reply of substance?

Having read your blog for years, including your recent one about the transients, as they are called, I'd respond that the over all claim made by Villarreol et.al is a bit more complex than just a red spectral class starts appearing on the red sensitive plate and not appearing onto the blue sensitive plate. While it's true they seemed to have used only digital scans of the red sensitive plates, or more likely digital scans of analog copies of the original plates, the various claims are not just that the supposed transients don't appear on the corresponding blue plates. Rather, they only appear on the scans of the plates from '50s and not on subsequent star catalogs or even in other Palomar plates from later dates. so, whether the transients appear or don't on the blue plates is irrelevant as they didn't really look at them as far as I can tell.

In addition, they make the claim that these transients are somehow related to the earths shadow. My understanding is that the claim is IF these transients represent actual physical objects in space, the original plates captured their momentary reflections. Therefore, IF they are real objects, more of them would appear out of the shadow as opposed to something like scratches and damage that would be spread across the shadow and non-shadow areas equally.

I'm in no way saying any of this is accurate and there are a number of problems identified up-thread by various members, including but not limited to, the variation in the amount of transients used for the various claims, the lack of public data and the overall complexity of the software pipeline that was used to identified the various transient datasets, which doesn't appear to have been shared. All of the supposed "reproducebility" involves various people just reusing the same data that was produced via the original pipeline.

I don't think many people outside of UFO circles are convinced these transients are even real, aside from errors, scratches and other similar defects, let alone the notion that the Palomar team unknowingly captured "alien techno-signatures".

However, IF as you describe in your blog Villarreol presented side by side scans of contemporaneous red and blue plates and suggested the transients were alien because they don't appear on the blue plates, than that's a bit different from the overall claim as I think many of us understand it. IF she did this to in effect "dumb down" the claim and make it easier to understand for a general audience in a quick news blurb, than the critique you gave is warranted.
 
The politeness of spelling someone's name correctly is of substance.
It's important if you want to Google someone ...although search engines make allowances for misspellings. Otherwise, it's as important as correctly identifying the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin. I speak as someone whose name is almost always either misspelled or mispronounced. It's not usually done "impolitely".
 
It's time to end this nonsense about 'missing stars' on photographic plates being orbiting satellites.


https://badufos.blogspot.com/2026/09/about-those-orbiting-flashes-of-dr.html
The post misses the mark—existing stars are culled from the transient set—somewhat—as when it's done rigorously (Solano 2022), only 5399 features are left, not enough to work with. So Villarroel did not match against the IR catalogs this time.

While it's true they seemed to have used only digital scans of the red sensitive plates, or more likely digital scans of analog copies of the original plates, the various claims are not just that the supposed transients don't appear on the corresponding blue plates. Rather, they only appear on the scans of the plates from '50s and not on subsequent star catalogs or even in other Palomar plates from later dates. so, whether the transients appear or don't on the blue plates is irrelevant as they didn't really look at them as far as I can tell.
I've been wondering what one would find if one was to analyse the blue plates with the same methods as the red plates. I think they were not used because the exposure time is shorter? and obviously the emulsion is different, but I wonder what we'd see.
 
I've been wondering what one would find if one was to analyse the blue plates with the same methods as the red plates. I think they were not used because the exposure time is shorter? and obviously the emulsion is different, but I wonder what we'd see.

Certainly other sources should be consulted. If the transients are seen by one telescope they could have been seen by others.
One of the hallmarks that always gives me pause is when one source is examined, the "right" result is found, and further sources are not consulted. No other photos were taken by anyone anywhere during the time period that might have captured the transients? Until every potential source of confirmation of the transients has been examined I have to wonder if it was just a problem with these particular plates. Not finding any does not of course prove they don't exist, there might be valid reasons why no others could capture them, but you at least need to perform due diligence.

Taking the "right results" and then going off on tangents and identifying all sorts of interesting unrelated things using those results could suggest that distractions were needed. So people don't look too closely at those original results, because they are talking about all these other things.
 
The post misses the mark

Actually, now that I'm watching the TV segment @Robert Sheaffer was blogging about, the guy is clearly comparing the red and blue plates from 7 minutes apart and claiming things are missing in the blue, though he doesn't seem to indicate there is a red and blue plates:

1790383120280.png


And they clearly use the same red and blue plates while Villarreol is commenting.

Bruell does most of the talking, basically outlining the nuclear test relationship and now from the new paper, the location of the transients, suggesting NHI is plausible:

External Quote:

4:57
4 minutes, 57 seconds
suggest? Well, that suggests, you know, I feel strange saying this because I know no one is supposed to say that
5:06
5 minutes, 6 seconds
they've detected any kind of nonhuman technology, but that would be a plausible explanation is that this was
5:14
5 minutes, 14 seconds
uh objects reflecting light in orbit prior to the launch of Sputnik that were
5:21
5 minutes, 21 seconds
appearing in greater numbers around the time of nuclear tests, even before those tests, which could potentially be
5:29
5 minutes, 29 seconds
something artificial. Now, we don't know where it came from, uh, but all our explanations we can come up with, uh,
5:37
5 minutes, 37 seconds
that don't involve considering this to be some type of nonhuman technology are fairly easy to dismiss for a variety of
5:46
5 minutes, 46 seconds
reasons. It's not cosmic rays. It's not um, uh, radiation effects that came from
So, in watching the TV segment, it repeatedly uses the red blue plates comparison on screen, while Villareol and Burell never explicitly say that's where the they found the transients. It's a bit misleading. I think just watching the TV segment, Mr. Scheaffer's blog is reacting to what is shown, the transients appear when red and blue plates are compared. I think in all of our looking into this, it seems they rarely if ever looked at the blue plates.

Maybe Sheaffrrer's blog is correct, but what it's reacting to isn't.


Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_93vhH8X9o4&t=5s
 
No other photos were taken by anyone anywhere during the time period that might have captured the transients?

I wondered that too. Maybe the chances of another large telescope photographing an area of sky within the 6 degree square being imaged by Oschin Schmidt at the same time are low. If it happened the area of sky covered would probably be a fraction of the area photographed by the Schmidt.

I don't know how comprehensive the list of Schmidt cameras in the Wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schmidt_camera is, but it's possible there weren't any others with sensitivity (22 magnitude) or field of view similar to the 122cm aperture Oschin Schmidt at Palomar during POSS1.
An 80cm Schmidt started work in Hamburg in 1955, part way through POSS1, but it wouldn't be able to photograph the same area of sky at the same time as the Palomar Schmidt. The Wikipedia article doesn't list any Schmidt cameras of the same scale as the Palomar instrument before 1960.
 
So, in watching the TV segment, it repeatedly uses the red blue plates comparison on screen, while Villareol and Burell never explicitly say that's where the they found the transients.
Yeah, but Sheaffer attributes the error to Villarroel (now spelled correctly), not NBC.

I don't trust journalists to get everything right. That's why I always seek out the source, if possible. In this case, that would be the published papers that are the subject of this thread. The images are taken from the nuclear testing paper, where they appear side-by-side; reproduced in the OP of this thread.
 
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The politeness of spelling someone's name correctly is of substance.
I have noticed that I have consistently made the etymologically-curious (though I am not a language scholar) single 'r' spelling mistake multiple times. I now genuinely feel bad about that, given how pedantically correct I have tried to be with the Beatriz-es. Sorry BV, not that you will ever see this. Get people's names right, people, that's just ground level respect. Unless you're taking the piss; in which case, have at it, and make it good, but not on MB.
 
the guy is clearly comparing the red and blue plates from 7 minutes apart and claiming things are missing in the blue, though he doesn't seem to indicate there is a red and blue plates:
Something doesn't add up there. These plates were 50 minute exposures. How could they be seven minutes apart? If there was a seven minute gap between exposures, the total time involved would be 107 minutes.
 
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Something doesn't add up there. These plates were 50 minute exposures. How could they be seven minutes apart? If there was a seven minute gap between exposures, the total time involved would be 107 minutes.

I suppose the telescope had some form of tracking to keep it aligned on the chosen area.
Have no idea about the process of changing plates, but 7 minutes might not be a problem.
If the exposure and collecting of each plate pair (1872 plates, 936 pairs) took 2 hours, there was plenty of time to do it.

External Quote:
The first photographic plate was exposed on November 11, 1949. 99% of the plates were taken by June 20, 1956, but the final 1% was not completed until December 10, 1958.
Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Geographic_Society_–_Palomar_Observatory_Sky_Survey

99% of 1872 = 1854 plates (rounded up), 927 plate pairs taken over the 2413 nights 11 Nov. '49 - 20 June '56.
Final approx. 1%, 18 plates (9 pairs) from 21 June '56 to 10 Dec. '58, 902 nights.

Edited to add: I probably misunderstood the point that @Eburacum was making, see @NorCal Dave's post #976
 
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That is only needed to confirm specific transients.
Finding transients within another telescope imagery independently of Palomar plates would already be a step in the good direction.

Agreed. It would be particularly interesting to see the frequency of transients (or transient-like features) in the Earth's shadow compared to elsewhere in other photos, assessed by other researchers. I don't think there's much doubt that transient-like features will be found on many images, e.g. Hambly and Blair don't seem to doubt the existence of such features in themselves, just Villarroel et al.s' interpretation of what some of those features, identified by their pipeline, represent.
 
Something doesn't add up there. These plates were 50 minute exposures. How could they be seven minutes apart? If there was a seven minute gap between exposures, the total time involved would be 107 minutes.

My bad! The red plate was time stamped 8:52:00 and the blue one was 9:45:00. I mistook the 8 for a 9.

I think the point is, NBC was using red and blue plates from the same session to illustrate transients, both in the intro and in the b-roll repeatedly. It really makes it look like the transients were being identified by their appearance or absence between red and blue plates, which is what Sheaffer was bloging about. That seems to be incorrect as many people hear have read through the various papers and the transient identification process was much more complicated and didn't seem to use the blue plates at all, or very little.

Villarreol and Burell may or may not have been aware of what was used in the intro or was being used as b-roll while they were commenting. However, further complicating things, as @Mendel noted up-thread, the red-blue comparison graphic is from the Nuclear Testing and UFO paper, which is part of what BV & B were discussing in the segment. So, it's their graphic from their paper, which infers transients are identified by comparing red and blue plates. If there is confusion about NBC using the misleading graphic, it came from BV et. al and they used it in their paper.

So, for me, I would maintain Sheaffer's blog post critiquing the use of red/blue plates comparisons is accurate as related to that particular NBC story. And that NBC story is one of the more public facing discussions of the whole transient topic. It was over 8:00 long, hardly a quick blurb by TV standards. It was on NBC, and while TV news has changed a lot in the last 10-20 years, NBC is still considered 1 of the big 4 networks in the US. It's definitely considered several steps up from Ross Coulthart's UFO hunting shows. It's about as close to "mainstream" as one can get in our highly fractured media world.

If there is confusion, it seems BV et. al's use of the red/blue comparison to show transients in their paper has lent to that confusion. If they did not use red/blue comparisons to identify transients why use a red/blue comparison to illustrate transients. It sets up a situation where everyone is talking past each other.
 
Agreed. It would be particularly interesting to see the frequency of transients (or transient-like features) in the Earth's shadow compared to elsewhere in other photos, assessed by other researchers. I don't think there's much doubt that transient-like features will be found on many images, e.g. Hambly and Blair don't seem to doubt the existence of such features in themselves, just Villarroel et al.s' interpretation of what some of those features, identified by their pipeline, represent.
Going back to the earth's shadow question, which I haven't really looked into since the data is rather opaque, doesn't that also assume something about the altitude of the supposed object? Granted these are all shots from the northern hemisphere during hours it's dark enough to collect images, but unless you're shooting directly away from the sun the range to be out of the umbra is going to vary substantially (see thin yellow lines on top of this Wikipedia image).

1790442249191.png
 
When you get to geosynchronous orbit, the Earth's umbral shadow is very small, (about 2% of the sky) and I am not particularly surprised that there are random irregularities in the distribution of 'transients' that might appear to be significant just by chance.
 
Get people's names right, people, that's just ground level respect.
Some people have difficulties spelling, and names are rarely in autocorrect (and if they are, they can be wrong). I would not attribute any error to malice, unless the person persists in not correcting it if asked politely—and Schaeffer Scheaffer has done so.
 
and Schaeffer Scheaffer has done so.

Sheaffer ;)

1790456145621.png


As the resident bad speller, especially with names, I couldn't help it.

EDIT: It appears I also added a "c" to Mr. Sheaffer's name up-thread, before completely butchering it abain with some extra "rr" for some reason.

EDIT 2: Mendel alerted me to the mangling of @Robert Sheaffer name, but it's out of the edit window. I can live with my mistake as long as Mr. Schaeffer Scheaffer Sheaffer is ok with it.
 
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Sheaffer ;)

View attachment 93306

As the resident bad speller, especially with names, I couldn't help it.

EDIT: It appears I also added a "c" to Mr. Sheaffer's name up-thread, before completely butchering it abain with some extra "rr" for some reason.

EDIT 2: Mendel alerted me to the mangling of @Robert Sheaffer name, but it's out of the edit window. I can live with my mistake as long as Mr. Schaeffer Scheaffer Sheaffer is ok with it.
Given we are at it, can you tell me what's the correct pronunciation of Shaeffer? (IPA if possible plz). Thanks.
 
When you get to geosynchronous orbit, the Earth's umbral shadow is very small, (about 2% of the sky) and I am not particularly surprised that there are random irregularities in the distribution of 'transients' that might appear to be significant just by chance.
For those who'd like to see what the Geosat Eclipse Season looks like here are a couple of videos by Wolfie6020



 
Actually, one extra detail to mention about the released article. As far as I can tell, no code has been shared and regarding data they say
External Quote:
Data availability

The final dataset reflecting all analyzed variables including the machine learning-derived probability scores will be made available by the authors upon reasonable request to Dr. Stephen Bruehl ([email removed]).
>:(
 
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Actually, one extra detail to mention about the released article. As far as I can tell, no code has been shared and regarding data they say
External Quote:
Data availability

The final dataset reflecting all analyzed variables including the machine learning-derived probability scores will be made available by the authors upon reasonable request to Dr. Stephen Bruehl ([email removed]).
>:(
It all depends on 'reasonable'. Did they make public what they consider 'reasonable'?

Now it's very common in certain research sectors to restrict access to data and materials, ie. in virology or military-related research, which is quite reasonable, but I can't see how Villarroel's paper could fall under this umbrella. It's also universal not to want to waste time by sending data to unqualified people (ie.: not academics) or cranks, which is quite reasonable too. But there were also cases where data were subject to unreasonable conditions (ie. iirc the tridactyl mummies scans?) or were not made available at all (ie. iirc the dataset of the previous Villarroel's papers?)

So it all depends on this.

I'm no academic nor I'm qualified so I cannot just make a test and ask Villarroel, I wouldn't even go past the spam filter. But I'd be interested if anyone comes to know what a 'reasonable request' requires and if anyone actually gets access to those data.

In any case, as any Bayesian, I can accept bets (but in PM, to avoid violations of the politeness policy).
 
Actually, one extra detail to mention about the released article. As far as I can tell, no code has been shared and regarding data they say
External Quote:
Data availability

The final dataset reflecting all analyzed variables including the machine learning-derived probability scores will be made available by the authors upon reasonable request to Dr. Stephen Bruehl ([email removed]).
>:(
They did just make a GitHub repo public which has some of the data, some of which seems newly public:

https://github.com/dca-doherty/VASCO-ML

MIT License, so I've attached a .zip here:
 

Attachments

They did just make a GitHub repo public which has some of the data, some of which seems newly public:

https://github.com/dca-doherty/VASCO-ML

MIT License, so I've attached a .zip here:

Oh this is a nice surprise! I'm very happy of this release.


From the readme.md file in the quoted repository:
1791982178136.png


Well, I don't think we can be sure that 'neither signal was used in the training': the training itself is based on the 250 'human-labelled' examples and spurious correlations might have sneaked in through this route. How were the 250 examples sampled from the catalog? Was the classification blind, with the classifier unaware of the position and time of the events?

Have the 250 labelled examples been released too (sincere question, it'd took me two hours to check where/if they are in the repository)? If they have been, I hope someone can independently vet them. Is there any 'Earth's shadow deficit' or 'Nuclear testing association' in the set of the 250 training examples? Has this been checked?

I'd also notice that 'validating' the classifier using the 'Earth's shadow deficit' and 'Nuclear testing association' assumes the two hypotheses are true from the start. What they actually did instead was to build the classifier and then use it to test the two hypotheses (with positive results, according to them at least).
 
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https://github.com/dca-doherty/VASCO-ML/blob/main/data/nuclear_tests_1949_1957.csv

This is the apparent list of Nuclear tests

1791983147894.png


Type appears undefined, it's unclear if date is UTC there are 160 tests listed.

It also seems yield is merged into type in the csv as example the Mike test was 10.4 megatons

Claude agrees with my assessment of the CSV

External Quote:

Data problems
  • Many rows are misaligned, with the yield and other values landing in the wrong columns. Examples:
    • Ivy Mike shows 10400 in the Type column. That is the yield in kt, and its actual type is missing.
    • The UK Totem and Buffalo rows have latitude fused into the Site field.
  • Yield_Preferred_KT is empty for 157 of 160 rows.
  • Because of this, counting by Type will mix real codes with stray yield numbers.
Claude provided this attempt to describe the types

CodeMeaningBasis
WRWeapons Related (55 tests)Standard code, as before
WEWeapons Effects (8 tests)Standard code, as before
SESafety Experiment (7 tests)Standard code, and the rows fit, e.g. Project 56 and Coulomb
CRCratering (Uncle, Ess)Inferred. Both were cratering tests
AS-TAtmospheric Surface/Above-ground, Tower (Apple-2, Kepler, Smoky)Inferred
ASAtmospheric Surface (Coulomb-B)Inferred, since it matches AS-T minus the tower
A-BAtmospheric, Balloon (Priscilla)Inferred. Priscilla was a balloon shot
UG-SUnderground Shaft (Pascal-A, B, C)Inferred
MEMilitary Exercise (one Soviet 1954 test)Inferred

It seems safety experiments do not involve the detonation of a nuclear device.
 
I'd also notice that 'validating' the classifier using the 'Earth's shadow deficit' and 'Nuclear testing association' assumes the two hypotheses are true from the start. What they actually did instead was to build the classifier and then use it to test the two hypotheses (with positive results, according to them at least).
Might it be more than that? If at any stage your criteria is some version of "show me examples that correlate with nuclear test dates" then there is no real surprise that the examples show such a correlation, nor any real information there beyond "phenomenon in question did not actively avoid nuclear test dates!"

Which may be what you were saying, I understand some of the concepts better than the approved terminology!
 
They did just make a GitHub repo public which has some of the data, some of which seems newly public:
Thank you!!!

I previously wrote about their confusion with hyperparameters and this confirms it. They claim they trained models with identical hyperparameters... But there's a whole bunch of hyperparameters that are automatically set to default values unless you change them. From their repo:

xg = XGBClassifier(
n_estimators=xgb_cfg['n_estimators'], max_depth=xgb_cfg['max_depth'],
learning_rate=xgb_cfg['learning_rate'],
min_child_weight=xgb_cfg.get('min_child_weight', 3),
scale_pos_weight=weight_ratio, random_state=seed + fold_offset,
use_label_encoder=False, eval_metric='logloss', verbosity=0)

lg = LGBMClassifier(
n_estimators=lgbm_cfg['n_estimators'], max_depth=lgbm_cfg['max_depth'],
learning_rate=lgbm_cfg['learning_rate'],
min_child_samples=lgbm_cfg.get('min_child_samples', 3),
scale_pos_weight=weight_ratio, random_state=seed + fold_offset,
verbosity=-1)

As I mentioned previously, all of these implementations have unique hyperparameters. LGBMClassifier, for example, has `num_leaves` that defaults to 31 if you don't change it. XGBoost has `max_leaves` (which is only equivalent if multiple other hyperparameters are set to specific values) with a default of `None`, meaning it's not used.

So the claim in the paper that identical hyperparameters is false because they didn't know about default values.

In any case, it still leaves the issue that the methodology, specifically averaging 3 GBDT and 1 Random Forest, itself makes no sense for this use case. If the 3 GBDT had identical hyperparameters, you would get identical predictions, with some minor random variation based on processing. That gives no additional information or predictive power. Since their entire set of hyperparameters were not identical anyway, we'll get some variance in predictions across models, but the predictions are likely extremely highly correlated. Model ensembling is useful for predictions where there is disagreement or uncertainty between the models. It's not useful if you have models that generate the same prediction. Since all they did here was take the straight average of the 4 model predictions, final_pred = (mod1+mod2+mod3+mod4)/4, it's really little more than a weighted average of the GBDT (weighted .75) and the RF (weighted .25), since mod1≈mod2≈mod3.

The methodology, the largely AI generated code, the labeling process, and all the other issues I've described previously make it clear that none of the authors are experienced with data science or statistical modeling. I also suspect that none of the peer reviewers were experts in statistical modeling.

I still need to confirm this by looking at the code some more, but it appears that they calculated Shapley values only on the random forest model. Shapley values represent the contribution for a given feature, conditional on the values of the other features. Put simply, they answer the question: how did feature f with value x contribute to the prediction for observation i? Since they used black box models instead of logistic regression, we don't get simple and easily interpretable coefficients for features.

This is from a brief look at the code just on my phone. I'll take a better look later.
 
Do they mention anything about this in the paper? Did the aliens show up for safety tests?
I'm trying to figure out it they correlated any transients for tests that were safety, the problem is you can come up with any explanation you want for why speculative aliens might be interested in a SE for nuclear casings.

It's similar to the "why do alien spaceships have flashing lights all over them?" question that always leads to some "who can know the motivations of beings beyond our ken" type answer.
 
Claude says all the SE tests were out side the transient detection dates
I looked through the code trying to find any filtering specifically on that Type column and couldn't find anything. That of course doesn't preclude those rows being removed due to some other filter, such as the one you mention here. I can run the code later this week to confirm it those safety tests get filtered out as Claude is claiming.

(Still on my phone so I can't guarantee I didn't miss anything during my searches)
 
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