The Ariel School, Zimbabwe UFO sighting - has it ever been debunked?

[Giddierone]

Since I've fought all my life with sleep terrors and other disturbances, I have deep empathy to people who experience frightening mental imagery. It may not be real, but it can be really distressing.
I just mean that there are different kinds of "experiencers", not all just want to believe in UFOs and be in the club.
I don't think Mack was totally off with that one.
He was, however, wrong to assume any of that was real in a physical way and also wrong to consider hypnotic regression a reliable method for treating memories and trauma.

I recently listened to a really good podcast (it was recent, say within the past couple of week, but which I cannot seem to now find) about Exploding Head Syndrome and it's similarity with various "anomalous/alien experiences".

 

[Todd Feinman]

Since I've fought all my life with sleep terrors and other disturbances, I have deep empathy to people who experience frightening mental imagery. It may not be real, but it can be really distressing.

I'm sorry to hear that; it sounds miserable.
As I've gotten older I've inherited what my mother calls "panic attacks". No fear or imagery, just waking up with profound feelings of loss and hopelessness. I think regular life and worries can generate long-term PSD for some people. It's not fun either.

 

[Ann K]

I recently listened to a really good podcast (it was recent, say within the past couple of week, but which I cannot seem to now find) about Exploding Head Syndrome and it's similarity with various "anomalous/alien experiences".

About 35 years ago I suffered a concussion when I was halfway up a cliff and some idiot kid threw a large rock off the top. Since then I get lots of auditory effects, including what I think they refer to as exploding head syndrome. Another thing that really bothered me is when the TV commentators had volume equalizers at large sporting events, so that the crowd noise was hushed somewhat when the announcer said something, but then when he stopped the full crowd roar came back, and it felt like a physical blow in my ear.

I wonder if things like a head injury, perhaps even a relatively mild one, might be responsible for people reporting the syndrome. But so far I've had no "alien" experiences!

 

[Fritzkquzerk]

I recently listened to a really good podcast (it was recent, say within the past couple of week, but which I cannot seem to now find) about Exploding Head Syndrome and it's similarity with various "anomalous/alien experiences".

Yeah that happened to me as well, during more stressing period.
Most of the time is just insomnia treated with meds and bad dreams.
I've had paralysis but with no aliens!
Maybe Mack was in good faith, maybe he thought about helping these people in a very unscientific way, and potentially dangerous too.
But I wouldn't say there's evidence he convinced them to have been abducted if they reported sexual abuse trauma.

 

[Fin]

To be totally honest, if I had an experience like that, such as a hallucination or a memory of an abduction, I wouldn't tell anyone except a psychologist.
I'd just hope not to encounter someone who would convince me I was actually abducted by space aliens.
Those "experiencers" online, who can be as dogmatic as Raëlians, usually share their stories anonymously anyway.
I simply wouldn't expect most rational people who undergo such weird psychological events to actually want to belong to that kind of club.

I had not one but 3 "close encounters" with the classic "black triangle" ufos between 2007 and 2008. I don't want to go off-topic with the details of those here in this thread. I'm just trying to offer a bit of insight/speculation regarding your final two sentences.

I think many people who have these sorts of ufo (and abduction) experiences really do not want to belong to the ufo club, for obvious reasons. So why do they talk about it publicly? I think in some cases there is an instinctive urge to tell our stories publicly despite the firm knowledge that it will attract ridicule and other unwanted reactions. I've compared it to when a rabbit notices a potential threat it thumps its hind feet on the ground to warn other nearby rabbits to pay attention. If the rabbit is wrong, (and if rabbits ridiculed each other) it might get ridiculed, but it was worth that risk, because if the rabbit is right it may save fellow rabbits from the sharp claws of an approaching bird of prey. After my sightings I was well aware that I didn't want to join the "ridicule me, I've seen aliens" club. Regardless, I initially reported my final sighting to a local newspaper but did so anonymously. Years later I plucked up the courage to tell my story more publicly & with my name attached to it - first on a small tv show & later in a YouTube interview.

In recent years I've pretty much left the ufo scene altogether and I'm happy I did so. But I've done plenty of thinking about why I felt the urge to eventually go public. I think, in my case and for some other ufo witnesses I've worked with, it boils down to the rabbit behaviour. I think, as tribal creatures we humans naturally want to warn others when we see something unknown and/or something which may represent a potential threat. The fact that UFOs are generally, widely thought to not actually be real, meant that after my experiences I felt a deep instinctive desire to "wake people up" to the fact that some witness accounts are unambiguous in nature and do indeed represent real structured "craft" of unknown origin. This also motivated me, eventually, to learn how to animate other people's ufo sightings for them, so I could help tell their stories as accurately as possible. I made 19 such animations which remain on my YouTube channel, during which time I met and worked closely with several ufo witnesses whose desire to share their stories echoed my own. Interestingly, I now feel like I've got this desire to tell these stories "out of my system" so to speak. It's a relief. After much introspection I really do feel that the almost obsessive desire to learn more about UFOs and keep telling not only my own story but also those of other witnesses I found compelling, came from a truly instinctive need to "warn the tribe", just like the aforementioned rabbit. All of this despite the firm knowledge that it could make me somewhat of an outcast from said tribe, due to the nature of the claims I have made. Claims which I have consistently felt uncomfortable sharing.

So yes, I certainly didn't want to belong to the UFO club and these days (unlike in previous years where I'd tell just about anyone and everyone) I rarely even mention my ufo-addled past when I meet new people. But I think my initial reaction to my sightings was a very rational one. If I'd only told a psychologist I don't think I'd have got the feeling of "I need to tell the rest of the tribe about this" out of my system. I don't think I would have been able to move on from it all in the way that I now finally have managed to.

Obviously, some people just do it for attention. Some people want to make money & are just lying, etc. Many people are just misidentifying prosaic things. In fact most of them are - I've done plenty of debunking as some of you may know. But I do think that some people who feel their UFO & abduction experiences were completely unambiguous (whether or not they were just mistaken, hallucinating, etc), are telling their story out of a completely rational instinct; an (albeit probably futile) desire to help the tribe better understand the world around it, for the sake of the survival of the tribe. I believe this is encoded into our behaviour due to evolution and makes complete logical sense once we accept that some of these people, like myself, completely believe that what they saw was indeed "real", but is largely being ignored/missed by the rest of the tribe.

 

[Todd Feinman]

I had not one but 3 "close encounters" with the classic "black triangle" ufos between 2007 and 2008. I don't want to go off-topic with the details of those here in this thread. I'm just trying to offer a bit of insight/speculation regarding your final two sentences.

I think many people who have these sorts of ufo (and abduction) experiences really do not want to belong to the ufo club, for obvious reasons. So why do they talk about it publicly? I think in some cases there is an instinctive urge to tell our stories publicly despite the firm knowledge that it will attract ridicule and other unwanted reactions. I've compared it to when a rabbit notices a potential threat it thumps its hind feet on the ground to warn other nearby rabbits to pay attention. If the rabbit is wrong, (and if rabbits ridiculed each other) it might get ridiculed, but it was worth that risk, because if the rabbit is right it may save fellow rabbits from the sharp claws of an approaching bird of prey. After my sightings I was well aware that I didn't want to join the "ridicule me, I've seen aliens" club. Regardless, I initially reported my final sighting to a local newspaper but did so anonymously. Years later I plucked up the courage to tell my story more publicly & with my name attached to it - first on a small tv show & later in a YouTube interview.

In recent years I've pretty much left the ufo scene altogether and I'm happy I did so. But I've done plenty of thinking about why I felt the urge to eventually go public. I think, in my case and for some other ufo witnesses I've worked with, it boils down to the rabbit behaviour. I think, as tribal creatures we humans naturally want to warn others when we see something unknown and/or something which may represent a potential threat. The fact that UFOs are generally, widely thought to not actually be real, meant that after my experiences I felt a deep instinctive desire to "wake people up" to the fact that some witness accounts are unambiguous in nature and do indeed represent real structured "craft" of unknown origin. This also motivated me, eventually, to learn how to animate other people's ufo sightings for them, so I could help tell their stories as accurately as possible. I made 19 such animations which remain on my YouTube channel, during which time I met and worked closely with several ufo witnesses whose desire to share their stories echoed my own. Interestingly, I now feel like I've got this desire to tell these stories "out of my system" so to speak. It's a relief. After much introspection I really do feel that the almost obsessive desire to learn more about UFOs and keep telling not only my own story but also those of other witnesses I found compelling, came from a truly instinctive need to "warn the tribe", just like the aforementioned rabbit. All of this despite the firm knowledge that it could make me somewhat of an outcast from said tribe, due to the nature of the claims I have made. Claims which I have consistently felt uncomfortable sharing.

So yes, I certainly didn't want to belong to the UFO club and these days (unlike in previous years where I'd tell just about anyone and everyone) I rarely even mention my ufo-addled past when I meet new people. But I think my initial reaction to my sightings was a very rational one. If I'd only told a psychologist I don't think I'd have got the feeling of "I need to tell the rest of the tribe about this" out of my system. I don't think I would have been able to move on from it all in the way that I now finally have managed to.

Obviously, some people just do it for attention. Some people want to make money & are just lying, etc. Many people are just misidentifying prosaic things. In fact most of them are - I've done plenty of debunking as some of you may know. But I do think that some people who feel their UFO & abduction experiences were completely unambiguous (whether or not they were just mistaken, hallucinating, etc), are telling their story out of a completely rational instinct; an (albeit probably futile) desire to help the tribe better understand the world around it, for the sake of the survival of the tribe. I believe this is encoded into our behaviour due to evolution and makes complete logical sense once we accept that some of these people, like myself, completely believe that what they saw was indeed "real", but is largely being ignored/missed by the rest of the tribe.

I've seen UFOs for real a couple of times too. Totally agree.

 

[John J.]

I believe this is encoded into our behaviour due to evolution and makes complete logical sense once we accept that some of these people, like myself, completely believe that what they saw was indeed "real", but is largely being ignored/missed by the rest of the tribe.

I have no doubt at all that many UFO witnesses believe what they saw was real, and most are as bright, reliable and responsible as anyone else.
I'd guess most other people with sceptical views about UFO reports feel the same.
The question isn't really (for me) are people being honest in their accounts, it's what the likely explanation for those accounts might be.
What the observer believes about what they saw is important, but in other areas of science we don't go by what an observer believes but what can be shown to be the case.
This doesn't have to be laboratory-based, astronomy (and e.g. some wildlife research) relies on observational data, sometimes of fleeting and rare events, but the difference with studying UFOs is that compelling evidence is captured and available for others to review.

 

[Todd Feinman]

Let's say Mick is on a trip and happens to be in Ann K's neck of the woods and they decide to meet up and go for a nature hike. While they are sitting up on a hill talking about UFO fans, five objects drop out of the sky at speed and stop in the air and hover about .25 miles from where they are. The objects are capsule shaped, and glowing, and circle the hill they are on, before flying off in formation and then shooting off into space, instantly. Neither Mick or Ann thought to whip out their phones and take a pic, because they were so engrossed by the shocking sight. On a hike later in the year the same objects come up close to Mick, before once again shooting off into space. A year later, Mick and Ann find out that others had reported identical objects flying around a bit later, fifty miles away from where they saw them.
So, it's "too bad" we can't test anything, but neat story!

 

[John J.]

So, it's "too bad" we can't test anything, but neat story!

From a scientific viewpoint, yes. I think many people here would find it more interesting if Mick and Ann both reported seeing the same remarkable thing than if some other people reported seeing the same thing. But many bright, competent, likeable highly-qualified people report seeing or experiencing remarkable things. Ghosts, telepathy, precognition, unlikely creatures.

It's understood that people can be mistaken. If someone we like or admire makes an extraordinary claim, that isn't a reason to be less sceptical.
I once posted "I've seen UFOs", and got a rather dismissive response

 

[Fritzkquzerk]

I had not one but 3 "close encounters" with the classic "black triangle" ufos between 2007 and 2008. I don't want to go off-topic with the details of those here in this thread. I'm just trying to offer a bit of insight/speculation regarding your final two sentences.

I think many people who have these sorts of ufo (and abduction) experiences really do not want to belong to the ufo club, for obvious reasons. So why do they talk about it publicly? I think in some cases there is an instinctive urge to tell our stories publicly despite the firm knowledge that it will attract ridicule and other unwanted reactions. I've compared it to when a rabbit notices a potential threat it thumps its hind feet on the ground to warn other nearby rabbits to pay attention. If the rabbit is wrong, (and if rabbits ridiculed each other) it might get ridiculed, but it was worth that risk, because if the rabbit is right it may save fellow rabbits from the sharp claws of an approaching bird of prey. After my sightings I was well aware that I didn't want to join the "ridicule me, I've seen aliens" club. Regardless, I initially reported my final sighting to a local newspaper but did so anonymously. Years later I plucked up the courage to tell my story more publicly & with my name attached to it - first on a small tv show & later in a YouTube interview.

In recent years I've pretty much left the ufo scene altogether and I'm happy I did so. But I've done plenty of thinking about why I felt the urge to eventually go public. I think, in my case and for some other ufo witnesses I've worked with, it boils down to the rabbit behaviour. I think, as tribal creatures we humans naturally want to warn others when we see something unknown and/or something which may represent a potential threat. The fact that UFOs are generally, widely thought to not actually be real, meant that after my experiences I felt a deep instinctive desire to "wake people up" to the fact that some witness accounts are unambiguous in nature and do indeed represent real structured "craft" of unknown origin. This also motivated me, eventually, to learn how to animate other people's ufo sightings for them, so I could help tell their stories as accurately as possible. I made 19 such animations which remain on my YouTube channel, during which time I met and worked closely with several ufo witnesses whose desire to share their stories echoed my own. Interestingly, I now feel like I've got this desire to tell these stories "out of my system" so to speak. It's a relief. After much introspection I really do feel that the almost obsessive desire to learn more about UFOs and keep telling not only my own story but also those of other witnesses I found compelling, came from a truly instinctive need to "warn the tribe", just like the aforementioned rabbit. All of this despite the firm knowledge that it could make me somewhat of an outcast from said tribe, due to the nature of the claims I have made. Claims which I have consistently felt uncomfortable sharing.

So yes, I certainly didn't want to belong to the UFO club and these days (unlike in previous years where I'd tell just about anyone and everyone) I rarely even mention my ufo-addled past when I meet new people. But I think my initial reaction to my sightings was a very rational one. If I'd only told a psychologist I don't think I'd have got the feeling of "I need to tell the rest of the tribe about this" out of my system. I don't think I would have been able to move on from it all in the way that I now finally have managed to.

Obviously, some people just do it for attention. Some people want to make money & are just lying, etc. Many people are just misidentifying prosaic things. In fact most of them are - I've done plenty of debunking as some of you may know. But I do think that some people who feel their UFO & abduction experiences were completely unambiguous (whether or not they were just mistaken, hallucinating, etc), are telling their story out of a completely rational instinct; an (albeit probably futile) desire to help the tribe better understand the world around it, for the sake of the survival of the tribe. I believe this is encoded into our behaviour due to evolution and makes complete logical sense once we accept that some of these people, like myself, completely believe that what they saw was indeed "real", but is largely being ignored/missed by the rest of the tribe.

Interesting experience.
If you were to go to a psychologist to talk about this, what would you think if they told you that really saw aliens or alien ships? Kinda like Mack did in Zimbabwe.
Honest question.

 

[Fritzkquzerk]

From a scientific viewpoint, yes. I think many people here would find it more interesting if Mick and Ann both reported seeing the same remarkable thing than if some other people reported seeing the same thing. But many bright, competent, likeable highly-qualified people report seeing or experiencing remarkable things. Ghosts, telepathy, precognition, unlikely creatures.

It's understood that people can be mistaken. If someone we like or admire makes an extraordinary claim, that isn't a reason to be less sceptical.
I once posted "I've seen UFOs", and got a rather dismissive response

I think we can all agree that even scientists can see UFOs or other unproven stuff.
We cannot apply the trained or informed observer UFO principle because it has been shown to be very fallible.
But I agree a bit with Todd here. If a random UFO dude on the internet says to have been visited by Pleiadians, I would still differentiate that account from that of a known skeptic like Sagan.
But neither me, you or Todd were there, can we base these descriptions accuracy only on how rational the testimony is? Probably not.

 

[Giddierone]

If you were to go to a psychologist to talk about this, what would you think if they told you that really saw aliens or alien ships? Kinda like Mack did in Zimbabwe

I don't think that's what Mack did. This goes back to the "persuaded" (not my word) and "allowed" (my word) distinction in the posts above.

 

[Ann K]

Let's say Mick is on a trip and happens to be in Ann K's neck of the woods and they decide to meet up and go for a nature hike. While they are sitting up on a hill talking about UFO fans, five objects drop out of the sky at speed and stop in the air and hover about .25 miles from where they are. The objects are capsule shaped, and glowing, and circle the hill they are on, before flying off in formation and then shooting off into space, instantly. Neither Mick or Ann thought to whip out their phones and take a pic, because they were so engrossed by the shocking sight. On a hike later in the year the same objects come up close to Mick, before once again shooting off into space. A year later, Mick and Ann find out that others had reported identical objects flying around a bit later, fifty miles away from where they saw them.
So, it's "too bad" we can't test anything, but neat story!

Lets not. Let's say Mick and Ann don't have a tendency to make up wild speculation and "neat stories", but just have a walk in the woods without seeing anything more spectacular than a couple of owls and a coyote.

Now stop this silly nonsense please. Go out and find evidence for your UFO. The time to believe something is AFTER the evidence is found, not before.