Surveillance/Attack Drones... Coming to an area near you. Wonderful world.

[Cairenn]

We were helping groups of Afghanis. The extremists then seized control. ANY Civil war is messy and it after effects, often even messier. The American Revolution was one of the 'cleaner' civil wars and in spite of what some may say, we had Help from England's enemies, especially the French. Often a civil war will leave a vacuum in governance in the country, and it is not unusual for a dictator or such to appear---look at the French Revolution and the rise of Napoleon afterward.

Too many folks want something that is neat and clean and has all the loose ends tied up, like in a novel. Life isn't that way.

 

[SR1419]

Brzezinsky makes himself clear on this does he not?

yes- he says

We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.

He also said:

I told the President, about six months before the Soviets entered Afghanistan, that in my judgment I thought they would be going into Afghanistan. And I decided then, and I recommended to the President, that we shouldn't be passive.

Ziggy's machinations certainly didn't help matters but you might want to understand the greater context before you place blame:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan


...and the Taliban?

 

[Oxymoron]

We were helping groups of Afghanis. The extremists then seized control. ANY Civil war is messy and it after effects, often even messier. The American Revolution was one of the 'cleaner' civil wars and in spite of what some may say, we had Help from England's enemies, especially the French. Often a civil war will leave a vacuum in governance in the country, and it is not unusual for a dictator or such to appear---look at the French Revolution and the rise of Napoleon afterward.

Too many folks want something that is neat and clean and has all the loose ends tied up, like in a novel. Life isn't that way.

I'm not sure the Afghan people would appreciate your comments but if that's how you want to look at it...

http://blogs.denverpost.com/captured/2013/01/28/podlich-afghanistan-1960s-photos/5846/

In 1967, Dr. William Podlich took a two-year leave of absence from teaching at Arizona State University and began a stint with UNESCO (United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization) to teach in the Higher Teachers College in Kabul, Afghanistan, where he served as the "Expert on Principles of Education." His wife Margaret and two daughters, Peg and Jan, came with him. Then teenagers, the Podlich sisters attended high school at the American International School of Kabul, which catered to the children of American and other foreigners living and working in the country.

Outside of higher education, Dr. Podlich was a prolific amateur photographer and he documented his family's experience and daily life in Kabul, rendering frame after frame of a serene, idyllic Afghanistan. Only about a decade before the 1979 Soviet invasion, Dr. Podlich and his family experienced a thriving, modernizing country. These images, taken from 1967-68, show a stark contrast to the war torn scenes associated with Afghanistan today.

"When I look at my dad's photos, I remember Afghanistan as a country with thousands of years of history and culture," recalls Peg Podlich. "It has been a gut-wrenching experience to watch and hear about the profound suffering, which has occurred in Afghanistan during the battles of war for nearly 40 years. Fierce and proud yet fun loving people have been beaten down by terrible forces."

 

[Grieves]

The American Revolution was one of the 'cleaner' civil wars

The American Revolution was perhaps the bloodiest civil war in known history, with hundreds of thousands of named dead, and thousands more unnamed.

Too many folks want something that is neat and clean and has all the loose ends tied up, like in a novel. Life isn't that way.

Got a bit of a chuckle out of this point, given how neat, clean and tidy you often demonstrate your perception of the history of your nation to be.

 

[Cairenn]

The problems in Afghanistan started when the USSR took control there. They supported a coup that deposed the government. Everything since has been trying to get the country back to where it was before.

I am not saying that errors were not made, but that in the end, we were trying to help the people there.


I have no idea where you get the notion that I think things are neat and clean. Folks with conspiracy theories have that notion, it seems to me. They seem to feel the source of all the world's ills is some shadowy 'cabal' of power brokers

 

[SR1419]

The American Revolution was perhaps the bloodiest civil war in known history, with hundreds of thousands of named dead, and thousands more unnamed. .

Are you sure you are not thinking of the Civil War?

"only" 25,000 US dead in the Revolutionary war:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualties_of_war

 

[Grieves]

I am, in fact. Pardons, major brain-fart.

 

[Grieves]

I have no idea where you get the notion that I think things are neat and clean.

I am not saying that errors were not made, but that in the end, we were trying to help the people there.

Suggesting that America's involvement in Afghanistan was and has been 'in the end' about helping the Afghan people is an extremely clear example of you taking a rather neat, tidy, and 'rose-tinted' view of the history of your country. You pretty frequently demonstrate yourself as espousing exceptionalism at least to an extent, and downplay the significance of many American transgressions when you're not doubting or denying these transgressions exist.

 

[Cairenn]

The US has done a LOT to help other countries, we have made mistakes, of course. We are just governed by ordinary humans.

I will ask you this, Can you point at ANY other country in history that helped to rebuild former enemies, like we did with the Marshall plan?

If the US is so BAD, then why do we have an immigration problem?

I see that it seems that you feel that we should have allowed the Soviets to stay in Afghanistan, and in eastern Europe and that we should have allowed them to seize control in other countries. You seem to ignore their transgressions. Why is that?

 

[MikeC]

The American Revolution was perhaps the bloodiest civil war in known history, with hundreds of thousands of named dead, and thousands more unnamed.

not even close:

Taipeng rebellion
White Lotus Rebellion
2nd Congo War
The ongoing Afghan Civil War
Russian civil war
Huguenot Wars
Nigerian/Biafra Civil War
Mexican revolution
Sudanese Civil War
Rwanda
Chinese civil war - even excluding direct conflicts with the Japanese by both sides
Even the English Civil War may have caused more casualties - especially in Ireland, where they may have numbered as much as 40% of the population!

 

[Grieves]

Can you point at ANY other country in history that helped to rebuild former enemies, like we did with the Marshall plan?

Rome, China, England, Spain, France..... of course they tended to call it what it was back then, 'colonizing' or 'garrisoning'. It's entirely common for conquering nations, once their work is done, to start up public works of great benefit to the people in defeated lands. Schooling is very often one of the first of these 'kindnesses', as educating the young in your way of life is the best way of seeing them conform to it.

then why do we have an immigration problem?

As I understand it immigration is in decline in the US. Could be wrong there, immigration figures aren't my strong-suit, but everything I've come across on the subject lately that wasn't sourced in the BS factory that is Fox News seems to suggest immigration is on the downturn... especially from Mexico. Still, America remains one of the worlds more prosperous nations, it's relatively unspoiled environmentally (compared to the UK/a lot of Europe, anyway), and it's an entirely decent place to live if you can afford it.

I see that it seems that you feel that we should have allowed the Soviets to stay in Afghanistan, and in eastern Europe and that we should have allowed them to seize control in other countries. You seem to ignore their transgressions. Why is that?

I'm not ignoring the role of Russia, either in previous conflicts or the current conflict. I'm by no means suggesting America was an evil bully picking on poor Russia, or anything of the like. What happened was two superpowers squaring down for the ultimate pissing contest, with Afghanistan caught in the middle.... nothing more. America wasn't there for the Afghan people then, and it's not there for the Afghan people now, no matter how much 'Gee-golly-gosh'ing Rumsfeld's done on the subject.

If the US is so BAD,

Don't get me wrong. I don't think America is 'so BAD', and I'm well aware that we're almost certainly not going to like what comes after it. I just think one has to acknowledge the crimes and misdeeds of their nation in order to learn from and better it. Raised with a strong sense of National pride for Canada's humanitarian record, I by no means wanted to know that during WW2 we were imprisoning tens of thousands of Japanese citizens in what amounted to concentration camps. I found the very notion downright humiliating. Fact is fact however, and I think I'm a better Canadian for it, knowing what extremes of prejudice a supposedly accepting nation will go too when fear is high. I can condemn those crimes, not to mention the continuing abuses/negligence of First Nations Communities, and still love my country.

 

[Cairenn]

So you think colonization, with the CONTROL of the government and resources is the same as the Marshall Plan was? I don't understand how you could equate the 2 of them. We helped Germany and Japan build FACTORIES that competed with ours, I don't remember anything about us 'running their schools'.

ILLEGAL immigration is down. Some of that is enforcement, some of it is the economy in the US is down, and the economy in Mexico has improved some. Legal immigration is still high.

How much to you chat with non Americans/Canadian/Brits?

 

[David Fraser]

The problems in Afghanistan started when the USSR took control there. They supported a coup that deposed the government. Everything since has been trying to get the country back to where it was before.

I am not saying that errors were not made, but that in the end, we were trying to help the people there.


I have no idea where you get the notion that I think things are neat and clean. Folks with conspiracy theories have that notion, it seems to me. They seem to feel the source of all the world's ills is some shadowy 'cabal' of power brokers

To be fair problems in Afghanistan started way before then. Prior to Partition Afghanistan was a buffer between Russia and Britain. Even after 3 wars fought against Britain when it gained sovereignty in 1919 it was extremely fractionised. Attempts at modernisation in the 20's and early 30's were knocked back. Post partition when the British left the area saw the Afghans playing off the USSR and USA as they both vied for influence. Then the USSR and the Marxist coup came. Who knows what will happen in the future? Pessimistically I see it coming under outside influences again, especially with the possible windfall through natural resources.

 

[Oxymoron]

The US has done a LOT to help other countries, we have made mistakes, of course. We are just governed by ordinary humans.

I will ask you this, Can you point at ANY other country in history that helped to rebuild former enemies, like we did with the Marshall plan?

If the US is so BAD, then why do we have an immigration problem?

I see that it seems that you feel that we should have allowed the Soviets to stay in Afghanistan, and in eastern Europe and that we should have allowed them to seize control in other countries. You seem to ignore their transgressions. Why is that?

This site is a political vehicle wrapped up in the guise of 'debunking'. We are all debunking on here but from a different angle. Many on here want to cherry pick the things that salve their conscience and portray the U.S and the west in general, in a good light. They do not like it when the bad is aired and wish to make it go away by sanitising or rationalising whatever it is.

It is a normal human reaction. But I say, and so do many others, that in order to be truly patriotic it is necessary to look at who and what we are 'warts and all'.

You have acknowledged yourself, that Congress and the people do not want to pay for other Country's people. They do not even want to pay for their own people who are in dire straits and living on the streets.... so why are they happy to fund the military to such an extent that it amounts to HALF of the ENTIRE world's expenditure.

I do not believe the American people are happy to have that much spent on armaments but what can they do... they vote Republican... and they get it. They vote Democrats... and they get it.

We have an illusion of democracy.

The Greeks do not even have the illusion any more... they are governed by bankers who are totally unelected and they don't like it as evidenced by the civil unrest.

Spain and Portugal are not far behind and all the peoples of the so called democratic countries have freedoms and and rights curtailed.

So if the people and Congress do not like spending all this money, why are they doing it?

 

[Grieves]

Legal immigration is still high.

Why in the world would you classify that as a 'problem'? Immigration is the very backbone of the US and Canada. North America is a nation of immigrants.

How much to you chat with non Americans/Canadian/Brits?

Fairly often, and in person. I live a short ways from the largest city in Canada, with two international airports in the area, living in a community that's exceedingly diverse. Perhaps the only thing I miss about working a telemarketing mill is the idle friendship of and conversation with many recent immigrants from the Congo, for whom telemarketing is an excellent starter-job in the country given most are already french and english speaking, something many telemarketing positions demand in Canada, but that many anglo-Canadians (including myself) cant facilitate, given our experience with the language consisted of providing the absolute minimum effort in a usually loathed compulsory class.

We helped Germany and Japan build FACTORIES that competed with ours, I don't remember anything about us 'running their schools'.

And what did these factories build? Luxury goods for North America, largely. There's nothing 'wrong' with the reconstruction efforts in Japan and Germany post WW2. But again, we can't pretend it was being done out of the kindness of Lady Liberty's heart.

 

[Mick West]

This site is a political vehicle wrapped up in the guise of 'debunking'. We are all debunking on here but from a different angle. Many on here want to cherry pick the things that salve their conscience and portray the U.S and the west in general, in a good light. They do not like it when the bad is aired and wish to make it go away by sanitising or rationalising whatever it is.

Not really. That's just YOUR focus. Most people are debunking on purely scientific grounds. Like chemtrails, or Moon landings, or 9/11 controlled demolition. The NWO stuff does not really have any tangible evidence, and so is not really a suitable subject for debunking - just debating.

 

[Cairenn]

I don't consider immigration to be a problem but many folks do. I don't even have a problem with the non documented folks. I see how hard they work and how they are contributing to the US in many ways.

I chat with folks that are still living in other countries and they do not have the negative view of the US that you have. The folks I am chatting with tend to be young folks that are in college or that have recently graduated.

One them contacted me and wanted to see if I could access his email, since he thought his government had blocked him, they had

Really 'luxury' goods, like steel and cheap knick knacks. I remember when 'made in Japan' was on the bottom of a lot of stuff one would buy in the dime store.

The plan was in operation for four years beginning in April 1948.[2] The goals of the United States were to rebuild a war-devastated region, remove trade barriers, modernize industry, and make Europe prosperous again


he years 1948 to 1952 saw the fastest period of growth in European history. Industrial production increased by 35%. Agricultural production substantially surpassed pre-war levels.[58] The poverty and starvation of the immediate postwar years disappeared, and Western Europe embarked upon an unprecedented two decades of growth that saw standards of living increase dramatically. There is some debate among historians over how much this should be credited to the Marshall Plan. Most reject the idea that it alone miraculously revived Europe, as evidence shows that a general recovery was already underway. Most believe that the Marshall Plan sped this recovery, but did not initiate it. The United States worked to direct the Marshall Plan towards children and an increase of nutritional material for all citizens within western Europe so as to shed a positive light on its goals as it worked to effectively defeat communist threats.

I suggest that you compare what happened in western Europe to what happened in eastern Europe. The Soviets followed the normal practices of how a conquered nation is treated.

Did you know that even Canada benefited from the Marshall Plan?

You accuse me of bias, while you have your own, anti American bias it seems. I try to look at everything from a realist viewpoint, and that does includes warts as well. I look out and I see products invented in the US that have changed the world for the better. I see folks on both the right and the left, demeaning much of what the US does. (It seems the 'right' can only wrap theirselves in a flag and push the military only).

Look at the Peace Corp and what they do.

Does the US also look out for itself with these programs, YEP, we do. I don't see a problem with that, I expect you do.

 

[Grieves]

I don't consider immigration to be a problem but many folks do.

So what you said before was just for the sake of argument, then... 'devil's advocate' deal?

and they do not have the negative view of the US that you have.

My view of the US isn't as negative as you think it is. I actually quite enjoy the US, many aspects of its culture, and most of the people I've met there/from there. I've only ever been to Florida, Atlanta and New York, but I loved each. The only thing that really pisses me off about your country as a whole is that most of you don't have the faintest idea what malt vinegar is, so if you ask for some in a restaurant serving staff stare at you in blank confusion. I mean, wtf, one of the world's best accompaniments to fried foods, and AMERICA hasn't heard of it. Cruel irony.
How I feel about your governing/intelligence bodies, your two-party system, and the atrocious foreign policies being forced down your throats has little to do with my opinion on America or Americans on the whole.

**
When I went to New York, I visited Time Square for a good long while, taking in all the bustle and chaos. I met a group of very large, bearded, angrily yelling black men in terribly strange matching outfits, outfits that best resembled, and I mean absolutely no offense here to whatever belief they might have been practicing, something you'd expect a villainous guard in the Temple of Doom to be wearing. Their rhetoric, or what I could catch of it, was rather violently anti-everything, and those that weren't shouting stood flanking and stone-faced, grimly and unblinkingly surveying the highly entertained crowd. Further along toward the middle in something of a clogged 'courtyard' with tall and fully occupied pews of what might have been concrete, several buskers were plying their trade, but I was interested to see a small cadre of young people, all wearing matching black shirts, bearing a '9/11 Truth' banner, chatting those people up who stopped to listen. Not five meters away, and this is the honest-to-goodness truth, a Mickey Mouse on tall platform shoes dressed up in Uncle Sam regalia was doing a jig and posing for pictures, some inevitably catching the banner in the background. I grinned a grin, sighed a sigh, and walked off the potent dose of love and fear. Later, on the way to the play I was catching, I passed by some sort of property of the 'church of Scientology', with a bunch of fashionable youth, many in Guy Fawkes masks, gathered behind a barrier watched by about 3 cops, chanting generally weak slogans. All that nonsense managed to clear up my introspection right-quick, and I was able to actually enjoy the show.

 

[Grieves]

Really 'luxury' goods, like steel and cheap knick knacks. I remember when 'made in Japan' was on the bottom of a lot of stuff one would buy in the dime store.

And televisions/vcrs/tape recorders/walkmans/cd-players/computers/cars/toys/clothes, ect. ect. ect. Luxury goods. Stuff nobody really 'needs', but most people want. Japan, once a proud and independent nation with Imperial ambitions, was rebuilt as a purveyor of, as you say, 'cheap nick-knacks'.... a role which they have persisted in for decades. Now even that role is in jeopardy following the Fukushima incident, the still very much ongoing and extremely serious nuclear crisis that receives shockingly little attention from news sources.

 

[JRBids]

I'm not sure the Afghan people would appreciate your comments but if that's how you want to look at it...

http://blogs.denverpost.com/captured/2013/01/28/podlich-afghanistan-1960s-photos/5846/

In 1967, Dr. William Podlich took a two-year leave of absence from teaching at Arizona State University and began a stint with UNESCO (United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization) to teach in the Higher Teachers College in Kabul, Afghanistan, where he served as the "Expert on Principles of Education." His wife Margaret and two daughters, Peg and Jan, came with him. Then teenagers, the Podlich sisters attended high school at the American International School of Kabul, which catered to the children of American and other foreigners living and working in the country.

Outside of higher education, Dr. Podlich was a prolific amateur photographer and he documented his family's experience and daily life in Kabul, rendering frame after frame of a serene, idyllic Afghanistan. Only about a decade before the 1979 Soviet invasion, Dr. Podlich and his family experienced a thriving, modernizing country. These images, taken from 1967-68, show a stark contrast to the war torn scenes associated with Afghanistan today.

"When I look at my dad's photos, I remember Afghanistan as a country with thousands of years of history and culture," recalls Peg Podlich. "It has been a gut-wrenching experience to watch and hear about the profound suffering, which has occurred in Afghanistan during the battles of war for nearly 40 years. Fierce and proud yet fun loving people have been beaten down by terrible forces."

And that's America's fault?