Surveillance/Attack Drones... Coming to an area near you. Wonderful world.

Oxymoron

Banned
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Drones, drones and more drones...

http://reason.com/blog/2013/03/07/rand-paul-is-not-alone-57-percent-think
http://www.networkworld.com/communi...choosing-targets-what-could-possibly-go-wrong



Then we have 'Anonymous Drones'. But do these matter, 'its only Pakistanis after all'?

http://blogdogcicle.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/anonymous-drones-us-pakistan-seek-to.html

No doubt this is all politically/morally acceptable even applauded.
 
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Mick West

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Staff member
There are obvious concerns about the use of this technology. But there are also concerns about a whole bunch of technologies - phone tapping, sniper rifles, GPS tracking, . This is is just a new one.

When you ask if "this" is morally acceptable, I think you need to be a bit more specific. I have no problem with drones being used to look inside a house in a war-time situation, or by LEOs (no more than I have a problem with robots being used to defuse bombs), but I'd have a big problem with being spied on in my own house without a warrant. But that's not really a function of the technology.
 

SR1419

Senior Member.
Drones are becoming ubiquitous now...I see many hobbyists these days with their personal drones out flying around complete with cameras- I imagine the laws will have to catch up.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Drones are becoming ubiquitous now...I see many hobbyists these days with their personal drones out flying around complete with cameras- I imagine the laws will have to catch up.

The thought occurs that those who are quick to decry government use of Drone surveillance will be quick to use and possibly abuse civilian versions themselves.
(edit. I mean the more vociferously paranoid ones, once they find out they can 'spy on the spyers' , will take it up, then gradually abuse that ability, according to the laws of irony.)

Drones as a military weapon are a very distasteful trend. It reeks of cowardice and complete domination.
And what is so urgent that drones must be used to survey your own population?
There could be some scientific or rescue-response validity to them though.
 

Grieves

Senior Member
My local police have adopted a Drone program. They didn't spring for the version armed with a tear-gas launcher and a rubber-bullet shotgun (nice way of saying a grenade launcher and a shotgun which can be loaded with non-deadly ordinance), but I wager that had more to do with budget than desire. Remote control planes and other flying machines have been around for decades and decades. Its their use by authorities as unmanned surveillance, policing, and urban pacification tools that concerns me. I'm all for keeping people safe. That's not what's being discussed though, and its not the issue people have with drones. The issue is with how long it's going to be before drone strikes become an employable tool in police-work... how long its going to be before killing Americans, albeit criminal Americans, in drone attacks on domestic soil becomes 'ok'. Rand Paul strikes me as something of a tool, but on this issue I have to agree with him. America shouldn't be stroking its chin over new and different ways to execute criminal citizens. If anything it should be working on putting an end to the Death Penalty, which in the end is as nonsensical a policy as it is barbaric, dangerous, and ineffective.
 

Oxymoron

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Banned
Drones are becoming ubiquitous now...I see many hobbyists these days with their personal drones out flying around complete with cameras- I imagine the laws will have to catch up.

I think you are likely confusing 'remote control' with 'drone technology'. Remote control is local like an RC, car, plane helicopter... yes years old but definitely more refined now.

Drone technology is used over large and extremely large distances as well as local.

Our old friends Raytheon are at the head of this technology.

http://www.raytheon.com/technology_today/2012_i1/eyeontech_voip.html

http://seekingalpha.com/article/631251-how-to-play-the-growth-in-unmanned-aerial-vehicles-market

Obviously speculation, but sometimes people object to how the military use their technology and there were a number of Raytheon execs that met an untimely end on 9/11 and they were apparently on every hijacked plane.
 
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SR1419

Senior Member.
I think you are likely confusing 'remote control' with 'drone technology'.

Its possible...but other than distance, what is the difference? Are not drones controlled remotely? Both are Unmanned Aerial Vehicles - UAVs.
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
Its possible...but other than distance, what is the difference? Are not drones controlled remotely? Both are Unmanned Aerial Vehicles - UAVs.

Well yes they are both remotely controlled but the technology on the drones is all about being in control from afar and accuracy and controlling as if you were there, i.e the controllers of the M.E drones are in the U.S... that's pretty clever stuff I think.

The Raytheon sensors are cutting edge and key to the success.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Well yes they are both remotely controlled but the technology on the drones is all about being in control from afar and accuracy and controlling as if you were there, i.e the controllers of the M.E drones are in the U.S... that's pretty clever stuff I think.

The Raytheon sensors are cutting edge and key to the success.

Since "drone" covers everything from a $200 Parrot AR drone to a $36 Million MQ-9 Reaper, maybe we should use more specific language when discussing the problems?
 

jvnk08

Senior Member.
Regarding Rand Paul's questioning, he received a response today:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way...ponds-to-paul-about-drone-strikes-on-u-s-soil

Safe to say we won't be seeing lethal drone strikes on American citizens within the US happening anytime soon(not like we have seen one in the decade it's been technically feasible anyways, not sure why people are making a fuss now).

probable cause warrant[/URL] before using a drone in an investigation. [/ex]

http://www.aclu.org/blog/technology-and-liberty/status-domestic-drone-legislation-states


Well yes they are both remotely controlled but the technology on the drones is all about being in control from afar and accuracy and controlling as if you were there, i.e the controllers of the M.E drones are in the U.S... that's pretty clever stuff I think.

The Raytheon sensors are cutting edge and key to the success.

If you want to really nitpick what is a largely a hazy definition, Wikipedia defines a drone as any robot. Regardless of the vast gradient between hobby UAVs and military UAVs, the principles are largely the same. It's really just a matter of how much you can invest in the equipment.

Grieves said:
My local police have adopted a Drone program. They didn't spring for the version armed with a tear-gass launcher and a rubber-bullet shotgun (nice way of saying a grenade launcher and a shotgun which can be loaded with non-deadly ordinance), but I wager that had more to do with budget than desire. Remote control planes and other flying machines have been around for decades and decades. Its their use by authorities as unmanned surveillance, policing, and urban pacification tools that concerns me. I'm all for keeping people safe. That's not what's being discussed though, and its not the issue people have with drones. The issue is with how long it's going to be before drone strikes become an employable tool in police-work... how long its going to be before killing Americans, albeit criminal Americans, in drone attacks on domestic soil becomes 'ok'. Rand Paul strikes me as something of a tool, but on this issue I have to agree with him. America shouldn't be stroking its chin over new and different ways to execute criminal citizens. If anything it should be working on putting an end to the Death Penalty, which in the end is as nonsensical a policy as it is barbaric, dangerous, and ineffective.


I largely agree with your sentiment here. I think there is a significant benefit to having UAVs for emergency services among other public works such as checking for environmental compliance(amusing example here, though done by a private citizen). On the other hand I'm concerned about their use on people that are innocent. Police agencies have already been caught using thermal imaging cameras to look for drug operations(in the process peering into everyone's homes). With that said, I hear a lot of hubbub about "non-lethal" drones for police forces, but there is still no picture or video evidence of their existence beyond the claims from the company Vanguard. Grenades are one thing, but I'd be amazed if even a moderately expensive drone could accurately fire a projectile like a rubber bullet from any meaningful range.
 

Oxymoron

Banned
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https://dronewarsuk.wordpress.com/aboutdrone/

 

jvnk08

Senior Member.
https://dronewarsuk.wordpress.com/aboutdrone/


It is terrible, but realistically the alternative is magnitudes more costly to innocent civilians(particularly when the enemy is prone to using civilians for cover in firefights). Drone strikes have actually gone down in the last few years:

http://www.longwarjournal.org/pakistan-strikes.php
 

Oxymoron

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It is terrible, but realistically the alternative is magnitudes more costly to innocent civilians(particularly when the enemy is prone to using civilians for cover in firefights). Drone strikes have actually gone down in the last few years:

http://www.longwarjournal.org/pakistan-strikes.php

I cannot subscribe to that. The inference is that if someone commits what is considered a crime in the U.S, and they hide amongst innocents then it is ok to take out the innocents, as collateral damage, in order to take out the criminal.

The prime directive is/should be, to take the person into custody with minimum force and then for that person to be tried and a sentence given.

It matters not whether the innocents are killed by drone or conventional methods, it is unacceptable, especially at those levels or anywhere near.

To be honest, I think it even worse that it happens/happened on foreign soil. If the British Army had used such tactics in Ireland... would that have been justified in your and Cairenn's opinion.

I see it as dehumanising the victims on grounds of ethnicity.

I do not agree that the west should even be militarily in Afghanistan or Iraq. I believe it makes the world a less safe place and builds understandable hatred toward the west.

In even looks like the Taliban will be elected back into government so it was all a waste of time. Parallels can be drawn with the IRA, they know it is only a question of time before they are in the majority and a political victory will be obtained... shame they did not see that earlier but we should learn from past mistakes, our own and others.

IMO :)
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Yet.

But it is ok to kill a non American abroad... why?

Because that's the interpretation of the law. If by "okay" you mean "lawful".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemy_combatant

It's also "okay" to kill american citizens in their homes, the police do it all the time when they are being shot at. It's "okay" to strap an American citizen to a chair and fry him with electricity, or shoot him up with poison. This does not mean we will go around doing such things at whim.
 

David Fraser

Senior Member.
Yet.

But it is ok to kill a non American abroad... why?

Lets face it simply because they are not American or European (just add a country). It seems that often a foreigners life has less value. You raised the issue of drones and if they had been used in Northern Ireland by the army. That struck a cord as I spent 7 years there in the army. Most soldiers would have loved to have seen a Predator overhead but for it to be armed would be anathema to them. A drone misses out on one thing "a personal touch". Boots on the ground make more aware decisions than a guy in an office. However if a guy in a block of flats opened up a patrol and a Predator killed him and 20 civilians the press spin would put that as acceptable. The mainland UK was getting bombed during that time so there was a bias by the population. However with Afghanistan and Iraq people do not care. All they care about are those they have sent over.
 

Oxymoron

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Banned
Lets face it simply because they are not American or European (just add a country). It seems that often a foreigners life has less value. You raised the issue of drones and if they had been used in Northern Ireland by the army. That struck a cord as I spent 7 years there in the army. Most soldiers would have loved to have seen a Predator overhead but for it to be armed would be anathema to them. A drone misses out on one thing "a personal touch". Boots on the ground make more aware decisions than a guy in an office. However if a guy in a block of flats opened up a patrol and a Predator killed him and 20 civilians the press spin would put that as acceptable. The mainland UK was getting bombed during that time so there was a bias by the population. However with Afghanistan and Iraq people do not care. All they care about are those they have sent over.

I can relate to a lot of what you say.

It is largely about priorities and when it comes down to 'us or them' the priority is 'us'.

I am no pacifist but I think it wrong to instigate war.

Pre emptive strike argument... I don't buy it. Bush and Co wanted this war and Obama seems to have changed his tune since taking office.

This is not about conspiracy theories, it is about politics... trying to get under the 'spin' at what the real motivations are. In denying the motivations, we get into conspiracy theories as to what the true motivations are and how they are spinning the news and where they are heading with their plans, (conspiracies to some).

Who benefits?

When push comes to shove, we back our own but if our friends or family are wrong and instigating trouble they should be made to understand they are in the wrong, even if loyalty requires backing them in the moment.

This has gone on over ten years and it is getting worse as new regimes come under the scope.

Do people really support the way this 'war on terror' is conducted?

Do they really appreciate how it is ushering in this hyper surveillance society and how it will impact on them?

It seems to me that people are under so much pressure to survive themselves during this economic crisis that they hardly think about what is happening in the M.E, abdicating responsibility to 'those who know best', without realising the significance of the 'vested interests' or political motivations of the decision makers.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
...

Do people really support the way this 'war on terror' is conducted?

Do they really appreciate how it is ushering in this hyper surveillance society and how it will impact on them?

...

There were a lot of people who made it clear they didn't support pre-emptive invasion, but they were effectively sidelined as 'whinging liberals, students, left-wing academics' and portrayed as unpatriotic at the time.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Speaking of drones, here's a nice (if slightly dangerous) usage a couple of miles north of where I live:

[video=vimeo;61155597]http://vimeo.com/61155597[/video]

And one from the hood:

[video=vimeo;34676743]http://vimeo.com/34676743[/video]
 

TWCobra

Senior Member.
Here is an even more dangerous use. This idiot flew his toy drone around Perth Airport and in the vicinity of a 737 where it was spotted by the crew. He then posted on YouTube!!! I bet he is wondering...."What gave me away?"

[video=youtube_share;mZEgeTFFFDY]http://youtu.be/mZEgeTFFFDY[/video]
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
There were a lot of people who made it clear they didn't support pre-emptive invasion, but they were effectively sidelined as 'whinging liberals, students, left-wing academics' and portrayed as unpatriotic at the time.

Yes you are undoubtedly right... obviously wasn't enough though but nice to know so many took part. Ashamedly, I wasn't one of them.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/feb/15/did-you-protest-iraq-invasion

 

Grieves

Senior Member
This idiot flew his toy drone
RC planes and drones aren't the same thing, by a long stretch.
[video]http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8d7_1362740018[/video] relatively advanced long distance RC plane with a camera in it.


predator drone.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
RC planes and drones aren't the same thing, by a long stretch.

You can't just take the word "drone" and make it mean just what you want it to mean. The average person calls anything that flies with a camera a drone. Domestically a drone is generally a small surveillance tool

Even the army has small RC planes that are referred to as drones.

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/06/new-bird-of-prey-hunts-somali-terrorists-raven-drones/



http://airman.dodlive.mil/2011/09/rise-of-the-drones/

 
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jvnk08

Senior Member.
I'd just like to also point out that there is extensive negative media attention around drone strikes and their potential use in US airspace by government organizations, even from "mainstream" press organizations. I personally have not seen anyone condone it, but feel free to point out some that do.


I would much prefer a peaceful solution before any of the Afghanistan war started as I'm sure most reasonable people would. But seeing as things are they way they are, the simple truth that there is much less collateral damage with drone strikes. The fact of the matter is the enemy, however misunderstood they may be, are entrenched in mountainous terrain and quite well armed. They unflinchingly endanger civilians with indiscriminate IED placement in addition to using them as cover. The military didn't pick this method of warfare because it killed more civilians.
 

Grieves

Senior Member
The Air Force’s new Gorgon Stare aerial drone sensor technology can capture live video of an entire city.
Once again, big difference between that and an RC plane with a camera in it, even if the sizes are similar. If you want to say the term 'drone' is synonymous with 'rc plane', you go right ahead.... but an RC plane with a camera in it isn't going to do what a Drone, designed for strategic or combat applications, is capable of. The technology gap between RC planes and strategic drones remains massive. Softening the image of drones by equating them to a toy/hobby-pursuit, and implying that the fact many private citizens fly RC planes, sometimes in exceedingly stupid ways, makes drone policing a less unsettling premise seems a little misleading.

the simple truth that there is much less collateral damage with drone strikes.
Collateral damage to Americans, sure. Drone strikes very often employ a 'double-tap' policy however; in which, after striking a target, they circle back and strike it again a few moments later, both to confirm the kill and vaporize any surrounding 'militants'. As good an advertising campaign as they've conducted convincing Americans the newer bombs and missiles are brilliant entities capable of avoiding civilian casualties, it doesn't change the fact that they result in rather massive explosions. Inherently civilians are bound to get caught in these massive explosions, and they very frequently do. With the double-tap policy, it became somewhat common for civilians who were simply trying to collect bodies/the injured to be killed in the second strike, and so when drone strikes occur in a civilian-populated area now, the wounded and dying are frequently left to suffer alone until the community can be certain the drone isn't coming back. Could you imagine living in such horror?
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Drone strikes very often employ a 'double-tap' policy however; in which, after striking a target, they circle back and strike it again a few moments later, both to confirm the kill and vaporize any surrounding 'militants'. ...

That's very morally disturbing.

The problem I have with drone attacks or using technology that makes one invincible and has no risk to the user is that it violates the most basic equaliser of violent conflict - putting yourself at risk in order to win the fight. An army is supposed to accept the idea of putting its life on the line. If there's a choice between keeping yourself safe or sacrificing yourself to keep civilians safe, as a member of a defense force you're supposed to put your own life last.

The reason that the US uses technology to kill others with no risk to itself is because dead soldiers create a political backlash.
But dying to protect your country is what being a soldier is about, not winning by any means necessary 'and sorry about the collateral damage'.
Now somehow it's become 'the threat justifies omnipotent force'.
Possibly I'm being naive about honour in conflict.
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
Once again, big difference between that and an RC plane with a camera in it, even if the sizes are similar. If you want to say the term 'drone' is synonymous with 'rc plane', you go right ahead.... but an RC plane with a camera in it isn't going to do what a Drone, designed for strategic or combat applications, is capable of. The technology gap between RC planes and strategic drones remains massive. Softening the image of drones by equating them to a toy/hobby-pursuit, and implying that the fact many private citizens fly RC planes, sometimes in exceedingly stupid ways, makes drone policing a less unsettling premise seems a little misleading.

Bang on G. That is a definite deliberate ploy and it is reprehensible.


Collateral damage to Americans, sure. Drone strikes very often employ a 'double-tap' policy however; in which, after striking a target, they circle back and strike it again a few moments later, both to confirm the kill and vaporize any surrounding 'militants'. As good an advertising campaign as they've conducted convincing Americans the newer bombs and missiles are brilliant entities capable of avoiding civilian casualties, it doesn't change the fact that they result in rather massive explosions. Inherently civilians are bound to get caught in these massive explosions, and they very frequently do. With the double-tap policy, it became somewhat common for civilians who were simply trying to collect bodies/the injured to be killed in the second strike, and so when drone strikes occur in a civilian-populated area now, the wounded and dying are frequently left to suffer alone until the community can be certain the drone isn't coming back. Could you imagine living in such horror?

And not only that, not content with gunning down people with machine gun fire from helicopters, (who are obviously unarmed and wandering around), they then gun down anyone who who comes to try and help and take the injured to hospital, all the time whooping it up.

No wonder Bradley Manning was so sickened by it he had to whistle blow. Instead of being prosecuted he should get a medal. It just shows how systemic all this is.

Those who instigate this, (and it comes from the top), should be prosecuted for war crimes.

Subhuman, mercenary, profiteering politicians and corporations behind this
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Once again, big difference between that and an RC plane with a camera in it, even if the sizes are similar. If you want to say the term 'drone' is synonymous with 'rc plane', you go right ahead.... but an RC plane with a camera in it isn't going to do what a Drone, designed for strategic or combat applications, is capable of. The technology gap between RC planes and strategic drones remains massive. Softening the image of drones by equating them to a toy/hobby-pursuit, and implying that the fact many private citizens fly RC planes, sometimes in exceedingly stupid ways, makes drone policing a less unsettling premise seems a little misleading.

I'm not trying to soften anything. The meaning of a word derives from its usage. There are big drones and there are small drones. Of course they are vastly different, but they are both referred to as drones.

The military officially uses the term UAV, as a "drone" is generally a test target. But even they will call UAVs drones sometimes.

If you just want to focus on the large drones, then maybe you need to start being more specific with your language. Talk about Predator UAVs with Hellfire missiles, or whatever it is you actually want to talk about.

 
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Grieves

Senior Member
If you just want to focus on the large drones, then maybe you need to start being more specific with your language. Talk about Predator UAVs with Hellfire missiles, or whatever it is you actually want to talk about.
I'm talking about drones usable in military, intelligence, or police operations to employ overwhelming force or high-level surveillance. It's not the size that matters after all, it's how you use it.

No wonder Bradley Manning was so sickened by it he had to whistle blow. Instead of being prosecuted he should get a medal. It just shows how systemic all this is.
I believe there's an effort being undertaken to have Bradley Manning nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize. Never going to happen, but good on them.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I'm talking about drones usable in military, intelligence, or police operations to employ overwhelming force or high-level surveillance. It's not the size that matters after all, it's how you use it.

Maybe "non-civilan drones"?

Really I'm not trying to soften anything. The language problem is yours because the word "drone" is already soft, especially with the incredibly popular Parrot AR Drone popularizing the use for quadricopters. I recommend you use UAV, "military drone", or "police drone".
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
Bang on G. That is a definite deliberate ploy and it is reprehensible.




And not only that, not content with gunning down people with machine gun fire from helicopters, (who are obviously unarmed and wandering around), they then gun down anyone who who comes to try and help and take the injured to hospital, all the time whooping it up.

No wonder Bradley Manning was so sickened by it he had to whistle blow. Instead of being prosecuted he should get a medal. It just shows how systemic all this is.

Those who instigate this, (and it comes from the top), should be prosecuted for war crimes.

Subhuman, mercenary, profiteering politicians and corporations behind this

I forgot to say, it really shoots some massive holes in the oft quoted false meme, "If there is a conspiracy, where are all the whistlblowers, they would be coming out the woodwork in droves".

No they don't... they keep their heads down and their mouths shut apart from extremely rare instances, 1) because they are conditioned to carry out these things and see nothing wrong in it as it is sanctioned and 2) they know the consequences.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I forgot to say, it really shoots some massive holes in the oft quoted false meme, "If there is a conspiracy, where are all the whistlblowers, they would be coming out the woodwork in droves".

No they don't... they keep their heads down and their mouths shut apart from extremely rare instances, 1) because they are conditioned to carry out these things and see nothing wrong in it as it is sanctioned and 2) they know the consequences.

They see nothing wrong with killing 3,000 Americans in the WTC?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Who sees nothing wrong in killing 3,000 people, many of whom were not American?

The non-whistleblowers involved in 9/11. You said: "they are conditioned to carry out these things and see nothing wrong in it as it is sanctioned"
 

Oxymoron

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Banned
The non-whistleblowers involved in 9/11. You said: "they are conditioned to carry out these things and see nothing wrong in it as it is sanctioned"

No doubt if it was indeed an inside job, there would be those who would find it 'acceptable collateral damage', enabling the 'master plan' to become reality.

Those people would no doubt believe in what they were doing and the ends would justify the means in their eyes. It is not uncommon. i.e.Hitler etc knew full well that millions of Germans would die were he to carry out his plans. So did the core believers who numbered many thousands. The price was acceptable to them. Obviously Germany is only one example in a history littered with such aspirations.

Many would have a peripheral role of which they would not be aware; likely via the process of 'strategic compartmentalization'. I.e., the airforce pilots would be guilty of nothing more than following orders and would not be 'deliberately aiding an attack', the same can be said for many other relevant people including FBI agents with advance knowledge, as is well documented due to some leakage, it was not their fault the information was not acted on...'it was a communication breakdown or a failure to realise the relevance of information'.

http://www.truthmove.org/content/black-ops/

 
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