SmarterEveryDay "UFO" during Solar Eclipse

Destin from /Smarter Every Day/ asks "Which satellite is it?" (and there are two)
Very weird, I actually have that video playing, watching it for the first time, as I read this for the first time.. On the list of unlikely coincidences in my life, that's a pretty unlikely one! Probably proves aliens are real and bigfoot causes ghost sightings.

I had wondered if he'd caught the NASA chase planes or something, but I've come around to the satellite hypothesis as the video progresses.
 
Very weird, I actually have that video playing, watching it for the first time, as I read this for the first time.. On the list of unlikely coincidences in my life, that's a pretty unlikely one! Probably proves aliens are real and bigfoot causes ghost sightings.

I had wondered if he'd caught the NASA chase planes or something, but I've come around to the satellite hypothesis as the video progresses.
I hadn't thought of those, it's good you remembered them, but wouldn't the chase planes need a parallel path to be useful, not a transverse one (which this appears to be), as those dark things move fast!

I think one of the mistakes the "expert" makes is that he doesn't take elevation into account when giving a figure for the distance to a VLEO object like starlink. That could be misleading editing. However, wrong distance means wrong speed. You know me, I'd love to do the maths, but I'm being summoned to a pub for some new beers :).
 
wouldn't the chase planes need a parallel path to be useful
Since it happens right as totality ends, I'd assumed they'd be at the moment it got away from them and be peeling off as they break off the chase. But at this point satellites make more sense to me. Unless somebody rules them out .
 
Since it happens right as totality ends, I'd assumed they'd be at the moment it got away from them and be peeling off as they break off the chase. But at this point satellites make more sense to me. Unless somebody rules them out .
OK, what is "it" here?

Admins - thanks for splitting the thread, I knew it was kinda in the wrong place when I posted it, but didn't have any better ideas. And the beer was great. And the live improv jazz afterwards was even better.
 
I'm a bit confused as to what expert is the one getting it wrong

Maybe the "smartest satellite person I know" who "runs a delightful old-school website that's just pure satellite information"?

Just a WSitD.

Of course, I know several smarter satellite people...
 
OK, what is "it" here?
"The moment it got away from them" would be the moment they were no longer able to stay in totality, when it = the umbra moved on and left them behind. At that point it might be time to turn and go to where ever home is.
 
"smartest satellite person I know" who "runs a delightful old-school website that's just pure satellite information"
In the video he first throws a guess just going with his gut (he says a bug because it was moving too fast), he then takes a more careful look (he states he wasn't thinking about how zoomed in the image is, which is understandable for a first guess). He then proceeds to do a back of the napkin calculation of how fast the object would be going if it were a satellite by taking advantage of knowing the angular size of the sun, angular velocity of the object and average distance a satellite would be orbiting at. His calculations lead him to 8km/s which he points out is not too different from 7.8km/s expected of a satellite and he says with that in mind it could very well be a satellite (but rightfully points out that just because it could be a satellite it doesn't mean it had to be satellite)

13:13
I started by showing him the video and asking for his gut reaction.
13:16
[J] real-time? [D] It's real-time, yes.
13:19
[J] Okay. I think that's a bug.
13:21
[D] Okay. Tell me why.
13:22
[J] I Think it's going too fast.
13:24
[D] Okay. [J] I mean, it's not impossible.
13:25
I guess I wasn't thinking about how zoomed in that image is.
13:29
[D] Then Then I asked how Jonathan would do
13:31
the math to figure out if it was traveling at orbital velocities.
13:34
[J] We can figure out the angular velocity of this little thing as it crosses
13:40
your field of view, because we know how big the sun is.
13:42
The sun is about half a degree across, and it took about half a second.
13:47
Let's suppose that this is a few hundred kilometers away.
13:50
Let's say 500 kilometers away.
13:51
Let's see if I divide 500 by 60.
13:55
That's about eight kilometers a second. [D] Okay.
13:58
[J] It's not very different from the 7.
13:59
8 kilometers a second of a low-orbiting satellite.
14:04
And so that is not inconsistent
14:08
with the speed of a satellite going overhead.
14:12
So the fact that we can't rule out that it
14:13
was a satellite, It doesn't mean it was for sure a satellite, but it's intriguing.
14:18
[D] It's fun, yeah. [J] Yeah, it's fun.
14:20
So it's possible that it was.

What's wrong about what he thinks? Is the math wrong? Are you just taking his first gut guess as some sort of final answer?

Maybe I'm just misreading your tone and it's all just a lighthearted jab at his gut feeling being wrong (if so, I apologize)
 
What's wrong about what he thinks? Is the math wrong? Are you just taking his first gut guess as some sort of final answer?

Maybe I'm just misreading your tone and it's all just a lighthearted jab at his gut feeling being wrong (if so, I apologize)
Yeah, the tone was supposed to be joshing, his maths is pretty good. The smaller the thing being focussed on, the more correct he is, and because I'm looking at a tiny detail you can conclude he's mostly correct. For answering the question, he's definitly correct *enough*. Yes, it was silly pedantry, I apologise.

The only minor problem is that is appears to have a single significant digit of accuracy, as it's presented with a single significant digit of precision. (One of my obsessions is the difference between precision and accuracy, and how a mismatch can mislead.) Alas it just misses. The typical VLEO satellite is at 540km or 550km, by virtue of the typical VLEO satellite being a Starlink, so wouldn't be 500km distant at any elevation, and when viewed at an elevation of about 60 degrees, judging by those cameras, the distance would be over 600km. Different leading digit - the horror! Sure, some satellites are at 400km orbits, and his 500km distance would match one of those (but at that altitude, your orbital decal will be horrific, you'll only have a few years left without boosts). Of course, my numbers may also be a bit wrong, I too have done the calculations in my head quickly, I've presumed sin(x)=x at the centre of the earth, for example, for a VLEO obect viewed at such elevations, and of course my 60o elevation was chosen so that sin(150o)=0.5 to make the maths easier (this is a simple sine law problem). To be honest, 99% of what I did was multiply by 2/sqrt(3), or just add 15%, the other 1% was knowing which side I was erring on by so doing. (Yes, that means chosing 60o for ease of calculation was *wrong*, we all make mistakes!)

I appreciate the lens being applied to me too. Just because I fling a lot of numbers around doesn't mean any of them are right. "Trust, but verify" is a pretty good mantra.
 
@FatPhil finally got round to looking at this. @Creamy Pasta sent it me a few days ago too.

So, first thing to do is confirm the location and date & time. The location is in the video on the screenshot of his eclipse app, as is the time of totality - C3 = 14:02:36 on April 8 2024..

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37.42902, -89.64276 = 37°25'44.5"N 89°38'33.9"W

Checking the lat and long gives us the Drury Hotel, so that checks out ok.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/37°25'44.5"N+89°38'33.9"W/@37.42902,-89.6453349,883m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m4!3m3!8m2!3d37.42902!4d-89.64276?entry=ttu

1716464553117.png


C3 Time is given as 14:02:26 8 April 2024, so I used savvytime.com to check for Time Zones on 8 April 2024 and Missouri was on CDT = UTC-5.

1716464722565.png

Then checking in-the-sky.org for that location and setting the time for a 5.5 seconds after C3 (14:02:31) and enabling all satellite categories there are no satellites that fit the movement of the objects in the video that I can see. The Molniya 1-86 satellite is close to that point but it doesn't move past the sun & moon like the objects in the video.


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@flarkey -- can you indicate on that sky image which way the satellites are moving? I apologize for the imposition, but I'm not up to speed on in-the-sky.org and it keeps defaulting to showing me my location rather than the location in question. I'll keep trying to learn it, so as not to have to ask silly questions and joggle your elbow while you are working in the future! ^_^
 
@flarkey -- can you indicate on that sky image which way the satellites are moving? I apologize for the imposition, but I'm not up to speed on in-the-sky.org and it keeps defaulting to showing me my location rather than the location in question. I'll keep trying to learn it, so as not to have to ask silly questions and joggle your elbow while you are working in the future! ^_^
Well those three satellites that are shown there are not really moving at all, they're communications satellites that are either in a geostationary or eccentric orbit. I'll see if I can do a screen recording of the movement. But the main thing to take away is that it doesnt show two satellites speeding past the sun at the time of the video.
 
The sun and the moon are 2cm apart on my screen, in an image that's 71cm across, and it looks like the field of view is 31o, so they're 2/71.*31 = 0.87o apart. That's not an eclipse.
I Thinks thats just the way that in-the-sky draws the star map. I have checked the time in stallarium it it matched.

1716483725426.png
 
I Thinks thats just the way that in-the-sky draws the star map.
Drawing it in a way that doesn't match reality isn't a positive feature for something that's supposed to present reality. Isn't the location of everything now called into question?
 
I Thinks thats just the way that in-the-sky draws the star map. I have checked the time in stallarium it it matched.
Sitrec is also a bit off. Interesting, I might need to get more deeply into this (and the satellite issue) at some later date.
 
A bit of it might be that totality is ending, we're at third contact. The center dot of the Sun and Moon would be starting to separate. Don't think thats enough to account for all of it...
 
My brain can comfortably cope with a set sun reflecting light off satellites in a night sky making them visible to us.

But, I dunno, I'm really struggling to imagine the angle a surface must be at to reflect the light in this scenario.

Not saying it's impossible at all. More hoping someone can help clear it up in my head. Thanks.
 
My brain can comfortably cope with a set sun reflecting light off satellites in a night sky making them visible to us.

But, I dunno, I'm really struggling to imagine the angle a surface must be at to reflect the light in this scenario.

Not saying it's impossible at all. More hoping someone can help clear it up in my head. Thanks.

There is a thing called Earth's albedo. It is the fraction of sunlight that is diffusely reflected by a body (Earth). This is on average 30%, plenty to illuminate satellites from below during eclipse.
 
This is on average 30%, plenty to illuminate satellites from below during eclipse.
... through a solar filter and be brighter than the glare it crosses?

I assume there's a filter involved although no mention of it is made in the video linked that I saw so I have no idea what it's stats are.

And my knowledge of glare is non existent.

Would it be possible, knowing the filter stats, to determine how bright this thing is? Would such information be indicative of anything?
 
Would not use the filter that you used during the partial phase during totality if you want picture of the corona, though you'd either put it back on on aim the camera away shortly after the 'Diamond Ring" moment when the Sun starts to peek back out.
That makes sense of the start of the video then, the orange to bright flash being filters changing.

My filter settings are dampened, but I dunno to 0 stops.
 
Here's a screenshot of the first item, the object in the lens flare (the little white dash)...

thing.png

Wouldn't a satellite in that position be in the moon's shadow?

Ignoring the moon, wouldn't a satellite in that position be eclipsed?

Given the lengths that people go to to photograph the earthshine on the moon during the eclipse I find it difficult to accept it's albedo that's lighting this up (there's some excellent photos out there). But it seems to me that if you want to say this is a satellite then it has to be an earthshine satellite.

I dunno. I feel kinda stupid with this cos far cleverer people don't seem to have thought about it but it seems so basic, so am I that far away with my thinking?

My brain can cope much easier with something closer and not in such direct line of sight being able to reflect light back to the camera. Like a bug. Or my brain could accept a satellite that's refracting light somehow.
 
Wouldn't a satellite in that position be in the moon's shadow?
Nope. Draw a top-down diagram with the sun, the moon, the observer, and the satellite. There's no need for a third dimension for this scenario. Anything off to the side of the straight line between the edge of the sun, the edge of the moon, and the observer *clearly* isn't between the sun and the moon or the moon and the observer *because it's off to the side*.
 
Nope. Draw a top-down diagram with the sun, the moon, the observer, and the satellite. There's no need for a third dimension for this scenario. Anything off to the side of the straight line between the edge of the sun, the edge of the moon, and the observer *clearly* isn't between the sun and the moon or the moon and the observer *because it's off to the side*.
I understand that but it's the *clearly* I'm struggling with, I guess.

If that object was a plane, would it be *clearly* off to the side? Am I wrong in thinking if there was a plane in that position then that plane would be in the shadow of the moon?

I get it's a distance thing, I just don't know that satellites are *that* far away.

Presumably there's numbers and maths that would back everything up but that's well beyond me.
 
I understand that but it's the *clearly* I'm struggling with, I guess.

If that object was a plane, would it be *clearly* off to the side? Am I wrong in thinking if there was a plane in that position then that plane would be in the shadow of the moon?

I get it's a distance thing, I just don't know that satellites are *that* far away.

Presumably there's numbers and maths that would back everything up but that's well beyond me.
You didn't draw a diagram. If you had drawn a diagram, you'd also know that it really *isn't* a distance thing. And you don't need numbers and maths.

A horse is in a field hiding behind a tree just obscuring it from your view. You can also see a dog in the field, off to the side. Can the horse and the dog see each other, or is the tree blocking their view of each other? Go to the kitchen *now*, get out your jars of peanut butter and jam or your salt and pepper grinders, and just construct this scenario. You only need three objects, as you're permitted to be one of them yourself.
 
Wouldn't a satellite in that position be in the moon's shadow?
I'm a bit confused what you mean by this, wouldn't the moon's shadow be in the opposite direction of the satellite? I get the question for the second object that is seen passing "through" the moon, but the first one is to the right of the camera while the moon is to the left and the sun is in the middle,
1716993473543.png
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The situation would be something like this (obviously not to scale and with simplified physics)
 
I'm a bit confused what you mean by this, wouldn't the moon's shadow be in the opposite direction of the satellite? I get the question for the second object that is seen passing "through" the moon, but the first one is to the right of the camera while the moon is to the left and the sun is in the middle,




The situation would be something like this (obviously not to scale and with simplified physics)

Nice.
Actually, it might not be so coincidental the object was observed right at the end of the eclipse, because only then the Sun's rays would illuminate objects close to/at the sun (observed, not actual).
 
Here's my diagram to visualize it. In the diagram, I'm standing at the edge of the zone of totality as the "diamond ring" appears, looking at my hand and a satellite:

P1280484.jpg
(Source, me, drawing "fast and dirty", apologies for some awful cutting and pasting to put the various elements where I want them, instead of where I drew them...)

Now in this drawing/diagram, the angle that the satellite is "missing" the Sun by is more than in the Smarter Every Day video. Keep that in mind. But while my hand and I are both essentially in the same part of the eclipse, right where the umbra starts to transition into the penumbra, the satellite is a pretty good chunk of miles further out. The satellite would be noticeably further from totality than me and my hand.

BUT -- recall that the angle between Sun and the hand-satellite line here is greater than Destin's "UFOs." That angle matters. If the hand-satellite line is approaching horizontal, the satellite is WAY out there in the sunshine. The closer the satellite gets to being aligned with the Sun, the less difference there is between the amount of sunlight it is getting, and the amount I am getting. And I'm getting a little tiny bit -- not much, but not zero.

So distance DOES matter, in a general sense, but the angle is so small in this specific case that it is unlikely to matter much. The satellite and my hand are pretty close to being in the same amount of sunlight, if I were standing by Destin and seeing his "UFOs" while holding my hand up instead of taking video. That would be very little light, as the diamond ring of the returning Sun is just happening, with the satellite getting slightly more, and they'd both be backlit by the Sun.

Which is a long drawn out way of supporting this opinon -- The sunlight is not what's illuminating the satellites/planes/bugs/aliens that Destin videoed, it would be rather faint and would be backlighting them anyway. The other possible light sources that spring to mind would be Earthshine or them emitting their own light. They are not hugely brighter than the aurora that is about to become invisible as the Sun returns -- Earthlight seems reasonable, and would rule out bugs (too low to receive it), MIGHT rule out planes (the higher they are the more likely they would pick up reflected light from the Earth though) and would seem possible for satellites or Aliens at orbital altitude. Whether or not aliens would illuminate themselves is not knowable, since we don't know that they exist and therefore know nothing about their lighting preferences. But since Earthshined satellites seem to work, there is little reason to invoke aliens or paranormal stuff.

Also, note that they pass on either side of the Sun -- one further out from totality than the camera, the other further in towards it. But they both appear similarly lit.

(Of course telling against the satellite hypothesis is the irksome detail that there do not seem to be any that would be there zipping past the Sun like that, see: flarkey HERE and HERE.)

EDIT: Replaced "angle" with "distance" where I typed wrong!
 
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Do we know if he was exactly on the centre of the path of totality ? I ask this because from any other location the Bailey's Beads rotate slightly around the edge of the Sun. You can observe that effect quite dramatically if you look at the eclipse in Stellarium from Oakville, Missouri instead....which is just outside of totality. From north of the line of totality the beads rotate clockwise around the Sun. That would make lens flare of the beads appear to move.....I think upwards. I'm not sure how far off the centre of the totality line you'd have to be for this effect.
 
Didn’t the video show that another observer also saw the object? And at a different angular position? So, knowing the distance between the two observers and the angular displacement of the object in their respective videos (using the Sun as an accurate gauge of angular size) can’t they very easily calculate the height of the object?
 
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