Needs Debunking: More Guns = More Crime

Libertarian

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There is a lot of state sponsored media claiming that we are made more safe by gun control laws. This assertion is not based on factual proof. I am hoping for some assistance from Metabunk.org in debunking the myth that stricter gun control equates to less violent crime.

I will start with this infographic from Zero Hedge:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-08-09/picturing-plunge-gun-crimes-gun-sales-surge

The infographic illustrates that a majority of Americans say they think gun crime has increased over the past 20 years, even though it has actually fallen dramatically, even as gun sales have surged to record highs.

I know that more guns in the hands of organized criminals make us less safe. But organized criminals do not obey gun control laws. Only law abiding citizens (i.e. the good guys) do. The result is that statistically, more guns in the hands of common citizens equals less crime.

I need help debunking the dangerous myth that more guns make us less safe.
 
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deirdre

Senior Member.
There is a lot of state sponsored media claiming that we are made more safe by gun control laws. This assertion is not based on factual proof. I am hoping for some assistance from Metabunk.org in debunking the myth that stricter gun control equates to less violent crime.


I need help debunking the dangerous myth that more guns make us less safe.
good one for you to wet your teeth on. how about you TRY debunking it yourself instead of making others do the work?
 

Libertarian

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OK :)

To get state sponsored media claiming that we are made more safe by gun control laws, I'll just start with the really easy one, CNN.

Just last week Piers Morgan signed off on his last show indicating that advocating gun control has been a ""consistent and often very controversial" part of "Piers Morgan Live." You can take it from Piers, he's not lying about beating that drum.

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainmen...off-cnn-show-with-final-plea-for-gun-control/

In his closing diatribe, Morgan pulled on our heartstrings with this quote:

“I assumed that after 70 people were shot in a movie theater and then, just a few months later, 20 first-graders were murdered with an assault rifle in an elementary school, the absurd gun laws in this country would change,” he said. “But nothing has happened. The gun lobby in America, led by the NRA, has bullied this nation’s politicians into cowardly, supine silence. Even when 20 young children are blown away in their classrooms. This is a shameful situation that has made me very angry.”

He then asked the public to do its part to spur change.

“It’s your country; these are your gun laws,” he said. “And the senseless slaughter will only end when enough Americans stand together and cry: Enough!”

Since Morgan took the opportunity to trade on the death of school children, I think we should try to step back and focus on statistical result of his own country's knee-jerk reaction to a similar incident.
The result of the gun ban was a doubling of gun crime six and a half years after the ban took effect.
The Dunblane reporting highlights the underlying issue, which is that the majority of gun crime is committed by gangs. By disarming the general populace, the British authorities gave violent gangs a monopoly on gun violence and they used it.

Here is a Youtube video that someone did showing these two Dunblane links while Bob Costas calls for gun control after that football player's murder fiasco. Sorry for the cheesy music. I shouldn't even need to prove that big media is calling for gun control. We all know this is happening. So can we agree that both big government and big media are calling for gun control? We can then move on to thoroughly debunking the notion that it makes us safer.

 
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NoParty

Senior Member.
OK :)

To get state sponsored media claiming that we are made more safe by gun control laws, I'll just start with the really easy one, CNN.

Just last week Piers Morgan signed off on his last show indicating that advocating gun control has been a ""consistent and often very controversial" part of "Piers Morgan Live." You can take it from Piers, he's not lying about beating that drum.

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainmen...off-cnn-show-with-final-plea-for-gun-control/

In his closing diatribe, Morgan pulled on our heartstrings with this quote:

“I assumed that after 70 people were shot in a movie theater and then, just a few months later, 20 first-graders were murdered with an assault rifle in an elementary school, the absurd gun laws in this country would change,” he said. “But nothing has happened. The gun lobby in America, led by the NRA, has bullied this nation’s politicians into cowardly, supine silence. Even when 20 young children are blown away in their classrooms. This is a shameful situation that has made me very angry.”

He then asked the public to do its part to spur change.

“It’s your country; these are your gun laws,” he said. “And the senseless slaughter will only end when enough Americans stand together and cry: Enough!”

Since Morgan took the opportunity to trade on the death of school children, I think we should try to step back and focus on statistical result of Britain's knee-jerk reaction to a similar incident.
The result of the gun ban was a doubling of gun crime six and a half years after the ban took effect.
The Dunblane reporting highlights the underlying issue, which is that gun crime is committed by gangs. By disarming the general populace, the British authorities gave violent gangs a monopoly on gun violence and they used it.

Here is a Youtube video that someone did showing the Dunblane results over top of Bob Costas calling for gun control regarding that football player's murder fiasco. Sorry for the cheesy music. I shouldn't even need to prove that big media is calling for gun control. We all know this is happening. So can we agree that both our big government and our big media are calling for gun control? We can then move on to thoroughly debunking the notion that it makes us safer.

No...go back a step and cite factual (not just opinion) evidence of how CNN is what you call "state sponsored media," then we can go from there.


p.s. If you believe "gun sales have surged to record highs" why would you perceive a government effort to deprive people of guns?
 

Soulfly

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To get state sponsored media claiming that we are made more safe by gun control laws, I'll just start with the really easy one, CNN.
Establish that CNN is state sponsored.

Don't use this tactic of hiding behind words, say what you mean. You mean the government wants to take our guns away and this is the bunk they are using.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
So can we agree that both big government and big media are calling for gun control? We can then move on to thoroughly debunking the notion that it makes us safer.
just some notes that come to mind. Not arguing the issue, I'm neutral.
I don't know about that. here in the US there is media and government speaking out against new gun control laws, which is why Obamas gun control didn't pass.

I also think perhaps citing actual statistics is helpful in debunking vs. journalists who you claim are all 'crooked'. here in the U.S. the fbi has crime stats. (google it) I don't know what organization holds the crime stats in England.

then you correlate socio-economic influences, new gun laws, new crime laws (or retracted gun/crime laws), increased/decreased police prescence etc. the math is too complicated for me personally. Personally I agree most gun crime is gang related although I've never looked up data to back my thoughts, so perhaps to show 'increased gang activity' etc. I often wonder what the stats would be if we removed all gang deaths from the equation
 

Libertarian

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I also think perhaps citing actual statistics is helpful in debunking vs. journalists who you claim are all 'crooked'. here in the U.S. the fbi has crime stats. (google it)
Awww...you took my thunder :p I was going to wait with the Uniform Crime Statistics because they also debunk the myth that more guns = more crime. In fact, the Uniform Crime Statistics establish very well that more guns = less crime.

Here is the site:

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...-in-the-u.s.-2011/violent-crime/violent-crime

 

deirdre

Senior Member.
Awww...you took my thunder :p I was going to wait with the Uniform Crime Statistics because they also debunk the myth that more guns = more crime. In fact, the Uniform Crime Statistics establish very well that more guns = less crime.
if it proves your debunk why would you hold it back?

now you have to explain and cite sources what the graph shows and why.
 

Libertarian

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if it proves your debunk why would you hold it back?
now you have to explain and cite sources what the graph shows and why.
I assumed I'd get serious resistance from Mick, actually...so I wanted to keep some powder dry as a reply to whatever the strongest he could come up with was :)
Really I think statistically that this one is pretty cut and dry. I minored in criminology in university and spent a fair bit of time studying this one. We all emotionally love the idea of decreasing gun violence. I get it. It's just that most people don't actually get how we could really accomplish that....and they rally behind crappy gun control laws instead.

The above graph shows the consistent drop in violent crime in the US over 2007-2011. The only reason I linked it was it is the only image featured on the FBI's Uniform Crime Stats page. I'm looking for a nice clean graph that shows the number of guns, which is going in the opposite direction...
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
How important is the 'state sponsored media' part to your debunk? Maybe your debunk should just focus on the 'more guns equal more violence' claim, because otherwise you have to prove that the media and the message itself is state sponsored, and somehow you give the impression that for you it's a foregone conclusion rather than a provable fact, so maybe that's best left out of it.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
I'm curious, why aren't you just sticking to UK stats since you are more familiar with that situation?
(heads up: I can throw socio-economic graphs and law enforcement stuff at you that would cast doubt on your gun ownership correlations. :) ) so perhaps take some time and put together one solid debunk.
 

Libertarian

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deirdre

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Gun sales have been going up quite steadily. And violent crime has been steadily dropping at the same time.

The Examiner did a good article on it, pulling from a bunch of different parts of the FBI's Uniform Crime Stats. It is where I found this graph:

Here is the Examiner's article:

http://www.examiner.com/article/two-new-studies-confirm-gun-control-s-worst-nightmare-more-guns-less-crime
the examiner? Is that one of the non-state controlled media papers?
 

Libertarian

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How important is the 'state sponsored media' part to your debunk? Maybe your debunk should just focus on the 'more guns equal more violence' claim, because otherwise you have to prove that the media and the message itself is state sponsored, and somehow you give the impression that for you it's a foregone conclusion rather than a provable fact, so maybe that's best left out of it.
Yeah good call. I shouldn't have called the media "state sponsored" even if I believe it...which I do :p But it is not really relevant to the debunk I am trying to make, which is that more guns = less crime, save in very specific circumstances like Japan. There, the opposite is true for sociological reasons, I believe.
 

Soulfly

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I'm not sure how this changes the graph, but there is always more crime than reported.
http://ojp.gov/newsroom/pressreleases/2012/ojppr080912.pdf
 

NoParty

Senior Member.
I need help debunking the dangerous myth that more guns make us less safe.
My experience is that demographics like the # of young men have always been easier to link to crime than # of guns,
so would you be equally motivated "debunking the dangerous myth that more guns make us more safe" if that were unprovable?



Don't forget, people are still waiting for your proof of CNN actually being "state sponsored media."
 

Soulfly

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Gun sales have been going up quite steadily. And violent crime has been steadily dropping at the same time.

The Examiner did a good article on it, pulling from a bunch of different parts of the FBI's Uniform Crime Stats. It is where I found this graph:




Here is the Examiner's article:

http://www.examiner.com/article/two...ontrol-s-worst-nightmare-more-guns-less-crime
Forgive me if I'm missing it, but where are the links to the studies used as a source for the article?
 

Libertarian

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the examiner? Is that one of the non-state controlled media papers?
OK then Dierdre, here's a Harvard study indicating that "the mantra that more guns mean more deaths and that fewer guns, therefore, mean fewer deaths" is incorrect:

http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

The study was looking at whether banning fire-arms would reduce murder and suicide. They demonstrated that more gun laws may in fact increase death rates.
 

Libertarian

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Forgive me if I'm missing it, but where are the links to the studies used as a source for the article?
That Examiner article is pulling their crime statistics from the same FBI Uniform Crime statistics site I linked to above. I would suspect their source for fire-arm ownership is the ATF. It is not a secret that rates of gun ownership have been going up. The government keeps talking about banning guns....so people keep buying more of them. They have good instincts, those people :p
 

deirdre

Senior Member.

Mick West

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I'm a little unclear as to what the actual claim of evidence is here that you are debunking?

Can you quote what the claim of evidence is? Or are you simple debunking Piers Morgan? What is claimed exactly, and by whom?

(Personally speaking, I don't find gun control a compelling topic - it seems more like a contrived topic to stir people up.)
 

Libertarian

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would you be equally motivated "debunking the dangerous myth that more guns make us more safe" if that were unprovable?
I'm sorry but what are you asking. I do indeed believe that more guns = more safety on a broad basis....but I believe that because I have seen a lot of statistics that tell me this. So, I think this is provable...and not unprovable. What are you asking here? I'm totally confused by this question. It feels like there's a double negative in it or something. Or perhaps it's just that it's late...
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
It is not a secret that rates of gun ownership have been going up. The government keeps talking about banning guns....so people keep buying more of them. They have good instincts, those people :p
youre very correct about that. I'm impressed you would admit it. there are many articles, I don't care to look up again, about gun purchases soaring just before Obama was elected ..because of his gun views. and again how gun purchases soar after every mass murder due to new laws always being discussed after such events.

perhaps some data that gun Ownership has gone up vs gun purchases ; )
 

Soulfly

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There is a lot more to take into account than just gun sales. Like increased punishment laws, the availability of drugs on the street, how poor people are, homeless rate and jobless rate just to name a few.
 

Soulfly

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Also some data directly related to the number of crimes prevented because someone used their legally owned gun to defend themselves from a violent crime would be helpful perhaps.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
Also some data directly related to the number of crimes prevented because someone used their legally owned gun to defend themselves from a violent crime would be helpful perhaps.
I've never seen that. they say "well, it might have turned violent if I didn't have my gun" ; )
 

Libertarian

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I'm a little unclear as to what the actual claim of evidence is here that you are debunking?

Can you quote what the claim of evidence is? Or are you simple debunking Piers Morgan? What is claimed exactly, and by whom?

(Personally speaking, I don't find gun control a compelling topic - it seems more like a contrived topic to stir people up.)
The President of the United States, CNN, the NFL, and a whole bunch of other mainstream media presently claim that guns make us unsafe. Yet the opposite appears true statistically. So I wanted to debunk the claim that having guns present in a society results in more crime. Because it doesn't. The opposite is true in looking at the facts.

And it isn't me stirring it up...it's El Presidente...

So, I need help debunking the dangerous myth that more guns make us less safe.

My specific claim of evidence, and I've posted a bunch of it already, is that guns in fact make us more safe.
 

NoParty

Senior Member.
I'm sorry but what are you asking. I do indeed believe that more guns = more safety on a broad basis....but I believe that because I have seen a lot of statistics that tell me this. So, I think this is provable...and not unprovable. What are you asking here? I'm totally confused by this question. It feels like there's a double negative in it or something. Or perhaps it's just that it's late...
I'm saying that your thread might appear to some to be nothing more than a naked attempt to spread
pro-gun propaganda, unless you were truly looking for truth.

Since academics who have studied the issue have traditionally drawn ties from the number young men
(since they're the ones, statistically, who commit a disproportionate amount of crime) to the amount of crime,
rather than a post hoc ergo propter hoc re. numbers of guns, there's a great possibility that "more guns = more safety"
is entirely unprovable (despite the massive efforts of the gun lobby, NRA, etc.).

In that event, since you say it's dangerous for people to believe less guns = more safety, would you not have to
also argue that "more guns = more safety" is a "dangerous myth" if unprovable.

In other words, if things are unproven, do you only call them "dangerous" when they don't support your politics?
 

Soulfly

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The President of the United States, CNN, the NFL, and a whole bunch of other mainstream media presently claim that guns make us unsafe. Yet the opposite appears true statistically. So I wanted to debunk the claim that having guns present in a society results in more crime. Because it doesn't. The opposite is true in looking at the facts.

And it isn't me stirring it up...it's El Presidente...
Bob Costas works for NBC not the NFL, he always does lead in segments that pertain to compelling topics of the day.
 

Libertarian

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I've never seen that. they say "well, it might have turned violent if I didn't have my gun" ; )
Here's one.

http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2014/03...home-depot-security-guard-with-dirty-syringe/

Armed citizens stop crime all the time. It doesn't make the news though. Only local stories...a local good guy doing his job as a good citizen (and using a gun to do it) isn't newsworthy at the federal level. Only big shootings make the news, even though statistically they haven't increased at all. Politicians like Obama just like to have a big media party every time groups of people get shot.

And @NoParty, this has nothing to do with my politics...it has to do with taking a factual approach to Obama's politics on the issue of safety.
 

NoParty

Senior Member.
The President of the United States, CNN, the NFL, and a whole bunch of other mainstream media presently claim that guns make us unsafe. Yet the opposite appears true statistically. So I wanted to debunk the claim that having guns present in a society results in more crime. Because it doesn't. The opposite is true in looking at the facts.

And it isn't me stirring it up...it's El Presidente...

So, I need help debunking the dangerous myth that more guns make us less safe.

My specific claim of evidence, and I've posted a bunch of it already, is that guns in fact make us more safe.
Despite the fact that anyone who prefers truth to propaganda, and can google, knows that--as they are actually used in the U.S.--
guns are incredibly unsafe for about one child/teen per hour http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/01/27/guns-children-hospitalizations/4796999/
acknowledging that reality is not a policy of the NFL, and if you actually have a source in which Obama says (as you claim)
"...guns make us unsafe..." please share that now. Honestly, if one constantly uses untrue claims to back up their politics,
it suggests that--on some level--they know that truth is not their friend.
 
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Libertarian

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Of course guns are unsafe for children to handle. That has nothing to do with violent crime. Kids don't commit violent crime. Kids have accidents with their parents' guns when stored unsafely. But El Presidente's bill doesn't address massively stiff penalties for unsafe storage. It attempts to disarm every day people. Statistically, there is very strong evidence to suggest that it is those same people who stop crime.

Obama is riding a wave of "Save the Children" hype regarding the last mass shooting. Here is a map of the last 27 mass shootings, nearly all of which occured in states with rigourous gun control laws. You sure don't see this kind of crap in Texas:

http://www.nycrimecommission.org/mass-shooting-incidents-america.php
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
The President of the United States, CNN, the NFL, and a whole bunch of other mainstream media presently claim that guns make us unsafe. Yet the opposite appears true statistically. So I wanted to debunk the claim that having guns present in a society results in more crime. Because it doesn't. The opposite is true in looking at the facts.

And it isn't me stirring it up...it's El Presidente...

So, I need help debunking the dangerous myth that more guns make us less safe.

My specific claim of evidence, and I've posted a bunch of it already, is that guns in fact make us more safe.
That's a claim, not a claim of evidence. What is the claim of evidence you are debunking? Be specific.
 

Soulfly

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Here's one.

http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2014/03...home-depot-security-guard-with-dirty-syringe/

Armed citizens stop crime all the time. It doesn't make the news though. Only local stories...a local good guy doing his job as a good citizen (and using a gun to do it) isn't newsworthy at the federal level. Only big shootings make the news, even though statistically they haven't increased at all. Politicians like Obama just like to have a big media party every time groups of people get shot.

And @NoParty, this has nothing to do with my politics...it has to do with taking a factual approach to Obama's politics on the issue of safety.
So CBS is not one of the state sponsored media? Seems odd one of the main three networks wouldn't be in on it.
 

Libertarian

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So CBS is not one of the state sponsored media? Seems odd one of the main three networks wouldn't be in on it.
I already apologized for referring to State Run media and withdrew the claim above at Pete's suggestion. So while I don't begrudge you having fun, there's nothing to reply to here.
 
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