Mendel
Senior Member.
The citations are in that post. They're the main subject of that post.
Need Debunking: Afghani and African immigrants 40-70x more likely to be suspected of gang rape than Native Germans
- Thread starter TheNZThrower
- Start date
Mendel
Senior Member.
Was it necessary for you to say that you don't sympathize with AfD when you did?
Was your post stating "It's about poorly educated young men from countries with a culture of toxic mascilinity" necessary?
Compare:
You have no map, no numbers, just unsourced claims. That is "neither useful nor comparative and you know this", even less so than my map.
To evaluate your claim, we need to look at countries with a "culture of toxic masculinity", countries with high rates of rape, and then see if that translates to immigrant behaviour in Germany. This means you can't just pick some countries you hate; if you follow the data, then you'd need to also pick high-rape countries like Australia and the UK (have you seen the rate for Alaska?!) and compare the rape rate of those immigrants. That was the primary purpose why I posted that map: to show that your claim that rape police statistics correlate with "toxic masculinity" in certain countries is ill founded, and that you did not support it at all. The secondary purpose was to show that your statement may be unsupportable entirely and should not have been claimed in the first place, because police report numbers may not reflect the actual situation.
Your recourse is to choose, at will, where you want the official numbers to reflect reality, and where you don't. That is, of course, bunk.
Mendel
Senior Member.
How exactly is that misleading? Rape is a crime. They also explicitly looked at sex crimes.
The study did see that trend, though. They can't be 95% certain that it's not a sampling artifact, but they confirmed the trend. And they confirmed that being a stranger to the victim is a significant factor, which is what I wrote. It is that factor which causes reports of non-German perpetrators to be significantly higher.
Your claim was that there is no data. It's false.
Mendel
Senior Member.
Compare:
Article:
This tracks closely with the German usage:
• suspect = "Tatverdächtiger"
• accused/defendant = "Beschuldigter"
• offender = "Täter"
In many countries, including Germany and the US, it is the job of prosecutors to accuse the suspects; since the police investigate but don't accuse, police statistics don't reflect accusations. Police simply don't make that decision.
Racial bias often manifests in how police select people to investigate, which then results in skewed numbers of suspects.
Mendel
Senior Member.
You cite Koopmans, who recognises "gender and age", but not socioeconomic status, and therefore does not refute the claim.
Has this happened in this thread?
I mostly question claims that are not supported by evidence at all.
He states this, but you do not cite the data that would support these statements.
Now compare your own source:
This result says very clearly that "cultural norms" are not a significant factor; it says that socio-economic status and personal history explain the crime rates, not—as you claim—"cultural norms".For example, when you restrict the comparison to yound men in precarious socio-economic situations who have experienced violence, the crime rates for Germans and non-Germans are quite similar.
Here's a data point regarding the lack of correlation of "cultural norms" and sex crimes:
Article: This week marks a watershed moment in a decade of discussion of “grooming gangs”: a much-anticipated Home Office report has concluded that there is no credible evidence that any one ethnic group is over-represented in cases of child sexual exploitation.
For many in Britain today the term “grooming gang” immediately suggests Pakistani-heritage Muslim men abusing white girls, but the Home Office researchers now tell us that “research has found that group-based offenders are most commonly White”.
Tezcatlipoca
Active Member
So, I will note one issue with Koopmans study here. Take the Asma case for example, this is a relatively poor example imo they provide a whopping 1 example out of over 40,000 Chechens in Germany. Given they don't even attempt to quantify any other cases with Chechens, it's insanely disingenuous to frame this as a for-sure cultural thing rather than, as they recognize, something that could singularly present with any individual in the moment.
I will also not speak for the Afghan cultural element, but studies like this that make absolutely no attempt to look into the cultures they speak of but throw the culture card around are debatably poor. For example, in the above, they take the time to note Sharia! Without actually identifying the differences in it commonly held between any of those countries.
In Chechnya, multiple layers of law apply. There is Adat, which are actual codified cultural customs, there are Russian laws, there is the Chechen criminal code, there are tribal laws, and yes, there is Sharia law (which is recognized and practiced perhaps the least). Sharia law in their nation, unlike the others referenced, has a relatively modified form, since Adat rules supreme, and is still a very touchy subject due to Islamic extremism with a good chunk of the younger populace. Framing this as anything similar to Sharia in Afghanistan as practiced by say the Taliban is a gross misunderstanding.
Sticking to that example, it also decides to leave out extrapolating any possible factor other than "they are immigrant from different culture". So, in the Asma case, with Chechens, it is quite important to recognize most Chechens are at least distantly related at this point, part of their cultural code related to your family having to be 7 generations away from another to marry back into it.
Their culture also expresses a center of gravity surrounding the (immediate) family and also the teip (similar to a tribe, not entirely reflective of extended family though), and because of this, a personal disrespect to an individual is largely seen as disrespectful, further, to their family and their teip. Their culture is also very conservative, so, added with the above, there is a very high stress on issues like adultery, because when it happens, you are functionally disrespecting a very large group of people, it does not matter if you are a man or woman.
The thing is, because of their culture, there is also a very specific way of this being handled. If you were to for example, go around and state your distaste over the situation, you would be in the wrong in their culture, even if you were the victim. Since you now also "wronged" their family, even if they conducted a "wrong" first - you acting out of norm against it puts you in the losing seat. How the other group decides to respond can happen within any of those legal layers, but will follow Adat (in which case, killing over situations of the sort is unfortunately seen as an ok thing).
Further none of the above speaks to the unique sociocultural makeup of Chechen diaspora, which is remarkedly different from those in-country.
Those factors are not really a thing that exists in say, Afghanistan as presented, since the sociocultural makeup is largely different, and even where there are similarities, say tribal structures (teip being closer to extended family vs tribes in the Afghan context referencing ethnic tribes - no real comparative form in Chechnya and the idea of tukkhums is a foreign concept from the Soviets thats not really a "thing"), the distinctions are insanely important to recognize when trying to do things like cross walking Sociocultural Analysis with Crime Frequency Analysis.
