Need Debunking: Afghani and African immigrants 40-70x more likely to be suspected of gang rape than Native Germans

[TheNZThrower]

There has been this Twitter account posting a rather sleek looking chart purporting to show German data that demonstrates that Afghani and African immigrants in Germany are 40-70x more likely to be suspected of gang rape than Native-Born Germans.


It comes from a Twitter account called Marc Vanguard International, who has a long list of similar graphics purporting to show similar trends in other European nations. Specifically, it has another similar chart purporting to show foreigners accounting for 67% of German gang rape suspects while being 12% of the population.


The implications being that Africans and Afghanis are more likely to commit gang rape than native-born Germans.

The cited source for the data for both graphics are the same. The first data table comes from the German BKA, which discerns the number of German and Non-German suspects based on nationality, specifically in Table T62

Link: https://www.bka.de/DE/AktuelleInfor.../BundTVNationalitaet/bundTVNationalitaet.html

The second source comes from the Federal Statistics Office of Germany, specifically from a table detailing the total foreign population in Germany:

Link: https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/G...tion/auslaend-bevoelkerung-2010200217005.html

I am unfortunately not able to post the full tables here as they are in spreadsheet format. However, I will post the screenshots of all sex-related crimes listed. It appears that a total of 12 crimes in the table which are listed as rape and sexual assault (Vergewaltigung & Sexueller Übergriff):

None seem to mention any term analogous to gang rape so far. But there are much more sex related crimes than the aforementioned categories. As I am not familiar with German, and thus I don't know what is the term used by the PKS for gang rape, I am posting in hope that someone more familiar with German can help with fact checking the tables to see if the gang rape stats in the tweets are valid. If I have missed out on any other sex offenses, please let me know.

 

[TheNZThrower]

Sorry. It appears that the data comes from 2016-2017, as Marc Vanguard links to the data in the following tweet. I accidentally listed the 2022 table:


This leads us to the 2016 version of Table 62:

Link: https://www.bka.de/DE/AktuelleInfor...tabellen/standardtabellenTatverdaechtige.html

The excel chart does list gang rape as a crime:

It would be classified under "vergewaltigung durch gruppen" and "vergewaltigung uberfallartig (durch gruppen)".

 

[Mendel]

I haven't looked at this data, but there are some general caveats:

• immigrants in Germany are a younger demographic; if you compare young Germans with young immigrants, many crime rate anomalies vanish, because they're the result of German pensioners not being into violent crime, and few old immigrants to balance that
• racial profiling means immigrants are more likely to be suspects (and more likely to be convicted) than the actual crime rate

When the absolute numbers are low, you're more likely to encounter statistical outliers. If you roll a dice 6 times, a number will likely show up twice, but that doesn't mean the dice is skewed; the "anomaly" could well go away if you did 600 rolls. In this case, both the type of crime and a country (and a year!) have been cherry-picked, suggesting a statistical phenomenon as explanation.

Data like this is cherry-picked to stoke xenophobia and hate, even when that is not warranted at all. For example, xenophobic felonies skew much more severely (and in much greater numbers) to "ethnic German" suspects.

Even if the claim turns out to be true, it does not tell the whole story: it is designed to mislead, to "lie with statistics". The real claim you should be debunking is "immigrants are evil" [Edit:] because that is the claim this "evidence" is actually intended to support.

----

115000 Felonies involving groups § 184j Criminal Code

 

[FatPhil]

• immigrants in Germany are a younger demographic; if you compare young Germans with young immigrants, many crime rate anomalies vanish, because they're the result of German pensioners not being into violent crime, and few old immigrantd to balance that

Absolutely, you have to control for the full range of socioeconomic factors as well, e.g. there's a chance immigrants would have a lower employment rate, or lower wages if employed.
And the "suspected" focus, as you mention, might be pointing towards biased racial profiling, like the old joke about the US goes "he was stopped for driving while black".

 

[Mendel]

Absolutely, you have to control for the full range of socioeconomic factors as well, e.g. there's a chance immigrants would have a lower employment rate, or lower wages if employed.

It's worse than that, there are a few crimes that Germans can't commit. For example, asylum seekers are typically not allowed to work; if they do, they're breaking a law that Germans can't break.

These "immigrants are criminals" statistics were touted a lot back when we were discussing legislation to allow families of affirmed immigrants to immigrate as well. (The asylum seekers who make the journey are often strong young males.) The data actually shows that young men who live with their families are a lot less likely to commit crimes, so the crime data actually supports that measure; but the people touting it opposed it for xenophobic reasons.

 

[Ann K]

The account name itself, "End Wokeness", is an extreme right-wing signal to begin with, inviting followers to believe the worst implications, but also inviting skeptics to check the facts.

 

[TheNZThrower]

View attachment 64437

115000 Felonies involving groups § 184j Criminal Code

Thanks for bring it to my attention. Why do you think that the PKS decided to group gang rapes under the broader label of group felonies?

 

[Landru]

Thanks for bring it to my attention. Why do you think that the PKS decided to group gang rapes under the broader label of group felonies?

Calls for speculation.Why don't you reach out to the author and ask.

 

[deirdre]

It appears that the data comes from 2016-2017

this fairly detailed 'debunking' article cited in the wiki article on "Rape in Germany" covers 2016/2017 ..but skimming i dont see a reference to gang rapes specifically. (Bold in second paragraph added).

Apparently there was an incident in 2015 that might have escalated the 'prejudice'

Article:

He says the events of new year's eve 2015 in Cologne and the tone of the reporting on them has exacerbated that prejudice.

Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20190111100913/http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/is-there-truth-to-refugee-sex-offense-reports-a-1186734.html

Article:

Fact-Check Is There Truth To Refugee Rape Reports?

Right-wing websites claim that Germany is facing an alleged epidemic of rape cases committed by refugees, fueling panic about the recent influx of foreigners and the safety of women in the country. We investigated one site's reports and found many problems with them. By DER SPIEGEL Staff

...
What is conspicuous in the statistics, however, is the fact that the number of suspected German sex-crime perpetrators has either stagnated or gone down, while the number of immigrants suspected of committing such crimes has increased significantly. This trend, Pickert claims, has been visible for five years. "It's no wonder," he adds, since more immigrants have arrived during that time. Futhermore, he says, when compared to the German population, immigrants are more frequently young and male and are more likely to live in a large city, lack education, be unemployed and have no income. "These can all be factors that promote criminal behavior."

...
'Arabs or Africans Not Intrinsically More Inclined to Assaults'

He says that some of the immigrants come from societies where sex offenses are more rarely punished, where these kinds of crimes are committed more frequently. "But most people quickly adapt their behaviors to their new social environment," Rettenberger says. "Social values and norms that were once internalized can still be changed. Arabs or Africans are not intrinsically more likely to commit assaults than Europeans."

Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20190111100913/http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/is-there-truth-to-refugee-sex-offense-reports-a-1186734.html

 

[Mendel]

Thanks for bring it to my attention. Why do you think that the PKS decided to group gang rapes under the broader label of group felonies?

They did not.

It may have come to your attention that this statistic is organised by sections of the criminal code ("Strafgesetzbuch" = StGB). §184j StGB penalizes perpetrators who are part of group where some persons commit rape ( §177) or sexual assault ( §184i). As you can see, §184j is well within the context of the neighboring sections.

Article:

§ 184j Straftaten aus Gruppen

Wer eine Straftat dadurch fördert, dass er sich an einer Personengruppe beteiligt, die eine andere Person zur Begehung einer Straftat an ihr bedrängt, wird mit Freiheitsstrafe bis zu zwei Jahren oder mit Geldstrafe bestraft, wenn von einem Beteiligten der Gruppe eine Straftat nach den §§ 177 oder 184i begangen wird und die Tat nicht in anderen Vorschriften mit schwererer Strafe bedroht ist.

Source: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/__184j.html

These two other paragraphs also have clauses that deal with group crime, making such crimes more severe.
You may have noticed that §177 (rape) has several lines in the statistic; all of these that reference "Absatz 6 Nr. 2" concern group offenses ("die Tat von mehreren gemeinschaftlich begangen wird.").

I was basically objecting to your comment, "None seem to mention any term analogous to gang rape so far", not giving you a conclusive overview (I wrote, "I haven't looked at this data").

You can't go cherry picking data points out of a legal document from a legal system you have no clue about without running the risk of producing bunk yourself. You'd be better off looking for an existing debunk with higher quality.

(And please don't assume my use of "rape" is an accurate and concise translation. It is not. I am not a lawyer, I cannot explain the line between §177 and § 184i StGB to you, nor how it maps to "rape" and "sexual assault" in other jurisdictions.)

 

[Scaramanga]

The implications being that Africans and Afghanis are more likely to commit gang rape than native-born Germans.

I started a new religion. Five minutes later my wife joined it, and 10 minutes after that the next door neighbour and his wife joined. With a 400% increase in membership in the space of 15 minutes....that makes it the fastest growing religion in the world !

I decided to name my new religion 'Lies, damned lies, and statistics'.

 

[FatPhil]

I started a new religion. Five minutes later my wife joined it, and 10 minutes after that the next door neighbour and his wife joined. With a 400% increase in membership in the space of 15 minutes....that makes it the fastest growing religion in the world !

I decided to name my new religion 'Lies, damned lies, and statistics'.

This is one of my favourite misuses of mathematical-appearing language. Why just hate it, when I can live it? So definitely sign me up! And the g/f.

 

[Scaramanga]

This is one of my favourite misuses of mathematical-appearing language.

It's all over the place. Another common one is ' we spent more money on XYZ than last year'....which they probably did but then when you factor in inflation they actually spent less. It's why one should never trust a verbal translation of some statistics.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

The document released by the German government you are looking for is this:

"Gruppenvergewaltigungen" in den Jahren 2018 bis 2022

Berlin: (hib/STO) Im vergangenen Jahr ist es in Deutschland nach Zahlen der Polizeilichen Kriminalstatistik (PKS) laut Bundesregierung zu 789 sogenannten Gruppenvergewaltigungen gekommen nach 677 im Vorjahr und 704 im Jahr 2020. Im Jahr 2019 lag diese Zahl bei 710 und im Jahr 2018 bei 659, wie aus der Antwort der Bundesregierung (20/6936) auf eine Kleine Anfrage der AfD-Fraktion (20/6650) weiter hervorgeht. Danach betrug der Anteil der nichtdeutschen Tatverdächtigen in den Jahren 2018 und 2019 sowie 2022 jeweils 50 Prozent, während er im Jahr 2020 bei 46 Prozent lag und im Jahr 2021 bei 47 Prozent,
Die genannten Zahlen entstammen den Angaben zufolge Sonderauswertungen der PKS, bei denen der Straftatenschlüssel "Vergewaltigung Paragraf 177 Absätze 6 bis 8 Strafgesetzbuch" kombiniert mit dem Filter "Tatverdächtige alleinhandelnd: nein" genutzt wurde. Wie die Bundesregierung zugleich ausführt, beruht die PKS auf dem Erkenntnisstand bei Abschluss der polizeilichen Ermittlungen. "Straftaten werden zum Teil von der Polizei, insbesondere wegen des unterschiedlichen Ermittlungsstandes, anders bewertet als von der Staatsanwaltschaft oder den Gerichten", heißt es in der Vorlage weiter.

https://www.bundestag.de/presse/hib/kurzmeldungen-951476

The full document is the first link in the quote, or here:
https://dserver.bundestag.de/btd/20/069/2006936.pdf

Der Anteil der nichtdeutschen Tatverdächtigen unter Bezugnahme auf die in
der Antwort zu Frage 1 erfassten Fallzahlen lag
– im Berichtsjahr 2010 bei 34 Prozent,
– im Berichtsjahr 2011 bei 38 Prozent,
– im Berichtsjahr 2012 bei 37 Prozent,
– im Berichtsjahr 2013 bei 34 Prozent,
– im Berichtsjahr 2014 bei 37 Prozent,
– im Berichtsjahr 2015 bei 46 Prozent,
– im Berichtsjahr 2016 bei 56 Prozent,
– im Berichtsjahr 2017 bei 55 Prozent,
– im Berichtsjahr 2018 bei 50 Prozent,
– im Berichtsjahr 2019 bei 50 Prozent,
– im Berichtsjahr 2020 bei 46 Prozent,
– im Berichtsjahr 2021 bei 47 Prozent und
– im Berichtsjahr 2022 bei 50 Prozent.

In 2022, 50% of gang rape suspects did not have German nationality.

In der nachstehenden Tabelle sind die fünf am häufigsten in der PKS registrier-
ten Staatsangehörigen der Tatverdächtigen, die bei "Gruppenvergewaltigungen"
erfasst wurden, dargestellt.
Im Übrigen wird auf die Vorbemerkung der Bundesregierung verwiesen.

Jahr Staatsangehörigkeit der/des Tatverdächtigen Tatverdächtige
2022 Deutschland 471
2022 Syrien 72
2022 Afghanistan 52
2022 Irak 51
2022 Türkei 35
2021 Deutschland 514
2021 Afghanistan 59
2021 Syrien 54
2021 Türkei 45
2021 Irak 41
2020 Deutschland 485
2020 Afghanistan 61
2020 Syrien 57

Im Jahr 2022 betrug der Ausländeranteil in Deutschland 14,6 Prozent.

https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/14271/umfrage/deutschland-anteil-auslaender-an-bevoelkerung/

The number foreign nationals living in Germany can be found here:
https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/1221/umfrage/anzahl-der-auslaender-in-deutschland-nach-herkunftsland/

In 2022 Germany had 85.4M residents, 14.6% of which were foreigners. That leaves us with 72.9M German nationals German nationality: 72.9M residents vs. 471 suspects
Syrian nationality: 924K residents vs. 72 suspects
Afghan nationality: 377K residents vs. 52 suspects
Iraqi nationality: 285K residents vs. 51 suspects
Turkish nationality: 1.4M residents vs. 35 suspects

According to this proportions a Syrian is 12x more likely to be suspect in a gang rape that a German national, an Afghan 21x more likely, and an Iraqi 28x more likely. A Turkish citizen is only 1/3 as likely to be a suspect than a German national. Of course those calculations are questionable because they are a very small sample size but you see a certain trend.

The statistics do not list any African nationalities, also I do not understand how they end up with 50% foreign nationals if 471 of 789 suspects were German nationals. Also keep in mind that 50% of suspects with German citizenship is not the same as 50% ethnic Germans without migration background. In 2022 almost 25% of the German population had migration background but only 14.6% of the population were foreign nationals. In the gang rape in Mallorca carried out by six Germans, all turned out to have migration background (and I'm not talking about a background from Iceland or Japan).

Worüber viele lokale und internationale Medien bei der Berichterstattung nicht sprachen: Die sechs Männer in Gewahrsam haben laut der spanischen Zeitung "Ultima Hora" allesamt einen Migrationshintergrund.

https://www.bild.de/news/ausland/news-ausland/vergewaltigung-auf-mallorca-tatverdaechtige-mit-migrationshintergrund-84695260.bild.html

Why is this important?

Es gibt in der kriminologischen Forschung sehr konstante und belastbare Indikatoren für eine erhöhte Kriminalität: Erstens gibt es einen Kriminalitätsschwerpunkt in jüngeren Altersgruppen, zweitens sind rund 75 Prozent aller Tatverdächtigen männlich. Bei Gewaltkriminalität sind sogar 86 Prozent und bei Vergewaltigung fast 99 Prozent der Tatverdächtigen männlich. Drittens spielt die soziale Lage der Täter eine entscheidende Rolle: Je prekärer die soziale Lage, desto höher ist die Anfälligkeit für Kriminalität.

Nimmt man daher die Gesamtbevölkerung und vergleicht diese zum Beispiel mit der Gruppe der Zuwanderer, stellt man fest, dass letztere Gruppierung im Schnitt jünger, männlicher und sozial schlechter gestellt ist. Insbesondere die in der PKS definierte Gruppe hat in den meisten Fällen gar keine Möglichkeit zum legalen Gelderwerb, was eine entsprechende Kriminalitätsbelastung nach sich zieht. Insgesamt treffen die Hauptindikatoren für erhöhte Kriminalität in hohem Maße auf diese Gruppe zu. Der Vergleich zur einheimischen Bevölkerung, der einen weitaus höheren Frauenanteil, mehr ältere Menschen und Kleinkinder umfasst, und zusätzlich im Durchschnitt sozial deutlich besser gestellt ist, gestaltet sich daher schwierig. Vergleicht man dagegen zum Beispiel nur junge Männer aus prekären sozialen Verhältnissen mit Gewalterfahrung, so gleicht sich auch die Kriminalitätsbelastung zwischen Deutschen und Nichtdeutschen stark an.

https://www.tagesschau.de/faktenfinder/pks-kriminalitaet-zuwanderung-101.html

Migrants from the Middle East, Central Asia and Northern Africa are predominantly young males of much lower socioeconomic status than average German nationals and therefore commit significantly more crimes than the average German or Middle European national. Yet age and sex are not sufficient to explain higher crime rates in those migrant groups.
Only if you compare young German males from the most precarious social background, the crime stats 'start to become similar' to those of average non-German nationals. Let that sink in. And of those non-German nationals, a large proportion in fact has crime rates similar or even lower than German nationals. Only a few nationalities show abnormously high affinity to criminal behavior. See below.

Another note:
Ausländer is not the same as Zuwanderer. Ausländer are obviously everybody without German citizenship. Zuwanderer according to the Bundeskriminalamt are asylum seekers whose application is in progress, rejected asylum seekers which cannot be deported, refugees of war or those part of resettlement programmes which do not have to file an asylum application, and people illegally in Germany.

Wer ist in der PKS mit der Gruppe der "Zuwanderer" gemeint?

Das Bundeskriminalamt (BKA) versteht unter "Zuwanderer" in der PKS Asylbewerber im laufenden Verfahren, abgelehnte Asylberwerber, die eigentlich ausreisepflichtig sind, aufgrund von einer Duldung aber zunächst nicht abgeschoben werden können, Kontingent-/Bürgerkriegsflüchtlinge und Menschen, die sich unerlaubt, also illegal in Deutschland aufhalten. Kritiker bemängeln, dass diese Definition von "Zuwanderer" erheblich vom alltäglichen Verständnis und Sprachgebrauch abweicht. Gastarbeiter, anerkannte Asylbewerber oder Arbeitsmigranten aus der EU, die viele Menschen ebenfalls aus "Zuwanderer" wahrnehmen, sind in der PKS ausdrücklich nicht gemeint. Tatverdächtige anerkannte Asylbewerber werden in der PKS unter dem Sammelbegriff "sonstiger erlaubter Aufenthalt" subsumiert. Über deren Anteil an der Gruppe der "Sonstigen" liegen dem BKA aber keine Erkenntnisse vor. Das bedeutet, dass sich über die Kriminalitätsbelastung anerkannter Asylbewerber in der PKS keine genaue Aussage treffen lässt.

Welche Straftaten werden von dieser Gruppe besonders häufig begangen?

Unter den tatverdächtigen Zuwanderern befinden sich besonders viele Personen, gegen die wegen Diebstahl (58.400 Fälle), insbesondere Ladendiebstahl (44.036) ermittelt wird. Da Diebstahl ohnehin zu den häufigsten Delikten der PKS zählt, ist dies auch nicht verwunderlich. Ebenfalls häufig wird gegen Verdächtige wegen Betrug (45.183), darunter allerdings insbesondere wegen "Beförderungserschleichung" (=Schwarzfahren) ermittelt (30.155 Tatverdächtige). Sogenannte "Rohheitsdelikte" (61.676), darunter insbesondere Körperverletzung (52.078) spielen ebenfalls eine große Rolle.

In welchem Verhältnis stehen diese Straftaten zur Gesamtzahl der Delikte?

Auffällig ist, dass die Gruppe der Zuwanderer überdurchschnittlich häufig an der Begehung von Straftaten beteiligt ist. Zwar kann niemand genau sagen, wie groß die Gesamtzahl derjenigen ist, die theoretisch in die Kategorie "Zuwanderer" fallen, so wie die PKS sie definiert (siehe oben) hat, aber selbst wenn man von einer sehr hohen Schätzzahl ausgeht, dürfte ihr Anteil an der Gesamtbevölkerung kaum mehr als zwei Prozent betragen. Demgegenüber stellen sie laut PKS aber 8,6 Prozent aller Tatverdächtigen. In einigen Deliktsgruppen ist ihr Anteil sogar noch deutlich höher. Darunter sind: Straftaten gegen das Leben (12,0%), Vergewaltigung und sexuelle Nötigung (14,9%), Raubdelikte (14,3%), Gefährliche und schwere Körperverletzung (14,9%), Diebstahl (13,1%) und Urkundenfälschung (21,5%). Besonders auffällig ist der Wert auch beim Taschendiebstahl, bei dem laut PKS zu 35,1% Zuwanderer tatverdächtig sind.

https://www.tagesschau.de/faktenfinder/pks-kriminalitaet-zuwanderung-101.html

Zuwanderer account for 2% of the German population at best, but make up almost 15% of suspects in sex-related crimes.

It's not about foreigners, it's about people with certain cultural backgrounds. Over a million Ukrainian refugees currently live in Germany. They by far exceed Afghans (about 377000) or Syrians (around 924000). Yet Ukraninans are almost invisible in sex-related crime statistics, far below German nationals (see below).
Again, the number foreign nationals living in Germany can be found here, I can't list them all:
https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/1221/umfrage/anzahl-der-auslaender-in-deutschland-nach-herkunftsland/

You can do more math from the PKS tables already posted if you like, I have attached them.
If you take all sex-related crimes (code 100000), 27% of suspects had non-German citizenship, while foreign nationals only accounted for 14.6% of the German population in 2022.

Im Jahr 2022 betrug der Ausländeranteil in Deutschland 14,6 Prozent.

https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/14271/umfrage/deutschland-anteil-auslaender-an-bevoelkerung/

Nationalities with proportionally high sex crime rates in Germany
Syrians 3.6% of suspects vs. 1.1% of the population
Afghans 2.1% of suspects vs. 0.45% of the population
Romanians 2.0% of suspects vs. 1.0% of the population
Iraqis 1.8% of suspects vs. 0.34% of the population
Eritreans 0.32% of suspects vs. 0.10% of the population
Moroccans 0.32% of suspects vs. 0.11% of the population
Somalians 0.29% of suspects vs. 0.05% of the population
Tunisians 0.2% of suspects vs. 0.06% of the population

Nationalities with proportionally average sex crime rates in Germany
Turks 2.1% of suspects vs. 1.8% of the population
Poles 1.2% of suspects vs. 1.0% of the population
Italians 0.76% suspects vs. 0.76% of the population
Croatians 0.47% suspects vs. 0.52% of the population

Nationalities with proportionally low sex crome rates
German nationals 73% of suspects vs. 85.4% of the population
Ukrainians 0.41% of suspects vs. 1.4% of the population
Austrians 0.14% of suspects vs. 0.22% of the population
I stopped there, feel free to do the rest.

A slightly older report from Kriminologisches Forschungsinstitut Niedersachsen e.V. 2018 regarding crime rates of foreign nationals in the state of Schleswig-Holstein:
TVR* is the uncorrected suspect rate per 100000 residents. Corrections include removing non-residents.

Im Bereich der Sexualdelikte fällt die relativ hohe TVR* für die Gruppe der afghanischen Staatsangehörigen auf. Bei steigender Tendenz seit 2013, beläuft diese sich auf 457 Delikte pro 100.000 Einwohner im Jahr 2016. Des Weiteren fallen die TVR* für die Gruppe der Iraner (2017: 389) und Iraker (2017: 271). höher aus, als bei den übrigen betrachteten Nationen. Dabei darf man jedoch auch nicht die Altersstruktur außer Acht lassen. So liegen die TVR* für deutsche männliche Jugendliche im Altersbereich von 14 – 18 Jahren und Heranwachsende im Alter von 18 – 21 Jahren bei 216 bzw. 161 Tatverdächtigungen pro 100.000 Einwohner, fallen im Bevölkerungsdurchschnitt jedoch mit 36 Tatverdächtigungen pro 100.000 Einwohnern deutlich geringer aus (BKA, 2017). Für die übrigen Nationen fallen die TVR* deutlich geringer aus oder unterliegen deutlichen Schwankungen zwischen den Jahren. Geringer als für die deutsche Bevölkerung fallen die TVR* in diesem Deliktbereich für die Nationen Russland und Dänemark aus.

https://kfn.de/wp-content/uploads/Forschungsberichte/FB_137.pdf

Obviously Germans are old and many Ukrainians are women and children but you can't magically explain away everything by the demographic. In this study Syrians were almost 50% more likely to be a suspect in sex-related crimes than male German nationals between 18 and 21 years old, and 8x more likely to be suspects than all German nationals.

Sorry for this long post, I can neither confirm nor debunk the original post but I can debunk the myth that Afghan or African migrants in Germany are no more likely to commit gang rapes or other sex related crimes as the averge German national. This is a blatant lie. I have also presented evidence that even if we take sex and age into account, Foreign nationals of certain countries like Afghanistan, Syria, Iran, Iraq are far more likely to commit sex-related crimes than young male German nationals. I know you don't like it but I trust this place to value facts higher than feelings.

 

[Mendel]

https://www.tagesschau.de/faktenfinder/pks-kriminalitaet-zuwanderung-101.html

Nimmt man daher die Gesamtbevölkerung und vergleicht diese zum Beispiel mit der Gruppe der Zuwanderer, stellt man fest, dass letztere Gruppierung im Schnitt jünger, männlicher und sozial schlechter gestellt ist. Insbesondere die in der PKS definierte Gruppe hat in den meisten Fällen gar keine Möglichkeit zum legalen Gelderwerb, was eine entsprechende Kriminalitätsbelastung nach sich zieht. Insgesamt treffen die Hauptindikatoren für erhöhte Kriminalität in hohem Maße auf diese Gruppe zu. Der Vergleich zur einheimischen Bevölkerung, der einen weitaus höheren Frauenanteil, mehr ältere Menschen und Kleinkinder umfasst, und zusätzlich im Durchschnitt sozial deutlich besser gestellt ist, gestaltet sich daher schwierig. Vergleicht man dagegen zum Beispiel nur junge Männer aus prekären sozialen Verhältnissen mit Gewalterfahrung, so gleicht sich auch die Kriminalitätsbelastung zwischen Deutschen und Nichtdeutschen stark an.

Translation:

If you take the total population and compare it, for example, with the group of immigrants, you find that the latter group is on average younger, more male and socially worse off. In most cases, the group defined in the PKS in particular has no opportunity to legally earn money, which leads to a corresponding level of crime. Overall, the main indicators of increased crime apply largely to this group. It is therefore difficult to compare the population with the local population, which includes a much higher proportion of women, more elderly people and small children, and is also, on average, significantly better off socially. If, for example, you only compare young men from precarious social backgrounds with experience of violence, the crime rate between Germans and non-Germans is also very similar.

In short: if you compare apples with apples, nationality ceases to be an important factor. You can understand crime better by looking at the socioeconomic status of the perpetrators than by looking at their nationality.

If you do that, the question is, why does Germany trap so many young immigrants in that demographic?

 

[Mendel]

https://www.bundestag.de/presse/hib/kurzmeldungen-951476

Im Jahr 2019 lag diese Zahl bei 710 und im Jahr 2018 bei 659, wie aus der Antwort der Bundesregierung (20/6936) auf eine Kleine Anfrage der AfD-Fraktion (20/6650) weiter hervorgeht.

These numbers were compiled (by the government) at the request of the German xenophobic party AfD.

 

[deirdre]

You can understand crime better by looking at the socioeconomic status of the perpetrators than by looking at their nationality.

but if you want to avoid rape, nationality is much easier to spot.


ex: this line in your translation doesnt make the foreigners of those nations sound all too safe. women know to try to avoid men from "precarious social backgrounds with experience of violence"

If, for example, you only compare young men from precarious social backgrounds with experience of violence, the crime rate between Germans and non-Germans is also very similar.

 

[Ann K]

Excuse me if I've missed the relevant statistics, but the OP talks about SUSPECTS, which is of course not the same as PERPETRATORS. Any anti-immigrant bias on the part of the police might well skew those numbers.

 

[Mendel]

Excuse me if I've missed the relevant statistics, but the OP talks about SUSPECTS, which is of course not the same as PERPETRATORS. Any anti-immigrant bias on the part of the police might well skew those numbers.

Yes.

Wie die Bundesregierung zugleich ausführt, beruht die PKS auf dem Erkenntnisstand bei Abschluss der polizeilichen Ermittlungen. "Straftaten werden zum Teil von der Polizei, insbesondere wegen des unterschiedlichen Ermittlungsstandes, anders bewertet als von der Staatsanwaltschaft oder den Gerichten", heißt es in der Vorlage weiter.

https://www.bundestag.de/presse/hib/kurzmeldungen-951476
This is stricly police investigation results, prosecutors and judges are not bound by that, and court proceedings may bring new facts to light. We don't know if the police underestimate "native" gang rapes, or overestimate immigrant crime.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

These numbers were compiled (by the government) at the request of the German xenophobic party AfD.

I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you implying the numbers are invalid because it was the AfD that requested data from the government? Would it be different if the Greens or Liberals requested this data? I'm really not fond of the AfD but my political preferences are as irrelevant as yours in this case. Only facts count.

In short: if you compare apples with apples, nationality ceases to be an important factor. You can understand crime better by looking at the socioeconomic status of the perpetrators than by looking at their nationality.

Why are you moving goal posts? The question was if certain nationalities are more likely to be suspects in gang rapes than German nationals and they are by far. Now you want to cherry pick the most criminal demographic group of German nationals (young males of low socioeconomic status) to prove your point? This means you admit that the average Syrian, Afghan, North African migrant is equivalent to the worst criminal youths with German nationality (a sizable proportion of which is likely to have migration background). Who are not a relevant demographic group by the way. Young Germans are already rare, young German males of low socioeconomic status are quite exotic. Young oriental migrant males of low socioeconomic status are however not rare, they make up the vast majority of migrants from problematic countries and they make up a substantial part of the population in large German cities.

the question is, why does Germany trap so many young immigrants in that demographic?

You cannot be serious. So it's Germany's fault that millions of illegal migrants from war-torn failed states who come from a radically lower socioeconomic background and completely different understanding of sexual self-determination of women than the average German national do not magically turn into feminist doctors and millionaires the second the cross our borders? Would you tell that face to face to the families of victims who have been robbed, raped, killed by them?

But to answer your question, it's simply because there are way too many migrants to adequately integrate them into society. It's not doable. We're already struggling to provide them with some temporary shelter. It would be a simple task if they were a few individuals who had to integrate into a vastly majority German society but they are now a sizable faction in many urban areas and want to stay among their communities, which is understandable but not helpful to improve their socioeconomic status. Also they often come from cultures which do not value (western) education. This is probably one of the main reasons why certain nationalities are much better in quickly improving their socioeconomic status then others. In East Asian and Eastern European families, education is usually highly valued so parents make sure their kids receive an excellent education, no matter how poor the family is. In Middle Eastern and Norther African cultures, education is valued much lower compared to quickly earning money so children from such cultures do significantly worse in school and are less likely to receive a higher education - which is however absolutely necessary to improve your socioeconomic status in a country like Germany.

Excuse me if I've missed the relevant statistics, but the OP talks about SUSPECTS, which is of course not the same as PERPETRATORS.

We only have the data of suspects from police. It would be better to have data of convicts from the justice system but alas, this data is not being compiled, at least I do not know of any. This is a huge problem in many cases related to crime and migration, the government simply does not collect the relevant data to answer key questions.

Any anti-immigrant bias on the part of the police might well skew those numbers.

Do you have any evidence to back up your claim? Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me, or grasping straws. Much like UFO believers twisting and turning the narrative until it fits their agenda. If you believe in a conspiracy between police, political parties and media to slander innocent migrants then so be it but just like with flying saucers I'd like to see hard evidence, not speculation or wishful thinking.

Why is it so hard to accept that migrants from certain nationalities exhibit significantly higher crime rates than others or the native population? Because it is not politically correct? I do not understand.

 

[Mendel]

I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you implying the numbers are invalid because it was the AfD that requested data from the government?

The xenophobes did the cherry-picking. This is how you lie with statistics.

The Green party would have asked for different statistics that create a different context.

Only facts count.

You disregard the power of selective editing.

Now you want to cherry pick the most criminal demographic group of German nationals (young males of low socioeconomic status) to prove your point?

No.
I want to match the immigrant demographic committing these types of crimes with the native demographic commiting these crimes. Apples matching apples.

Young Germans are already rare, young German males of low socioeconomic status are quite exotic. Young oriental migrant males of low socioeconomic status are however not rare, they make up the vast majority of migrants from problematic countries and they make up a substantial part of the population in large German cities.

That is precisely the reason why any comparison disregarding these demographics is comparing apples to oranges.
Do you think it is reasonable to compare grandmothers and poor young men? What else but the obvious is this comparison going to yield? It won't provide any insights, all it's suited for is propaganda that builds on fear.

completely different understanding of sexual self-determination of women than the average German national

not in evidence that this is even a factor

Would you tell that face to face to the families of victims who have been robbed, raped, killed by them?

"appeal to emotion" fallacy

it's simply because there are way too many migrants to adequately integrate them into society. It's not doable

claim not in evidence

We're already struggling to provide them with some temporary shelter.

claim not in evidence

they are now a sizable faction in many urban areas

proof it's doable

want to stay among their communities

claim not in evidence

not helpful to improve their socioeconomic status

claim not in evidence

Also they often come from cultures which do not value (western) education.

claim not in evidence

certain nationalities are much better in quickly improving their socioeconomic status then others

claim not in evidence

In East Asian and Eastern European families, education is usually highly valued so parents make sure their kids receive an excellent education, no matter how poor the family is. In Middle Eastern and Norther African cultures, education is valued much lower compared to quickly earning money so children from such cultures do significantly worse in school and are less likely to receive a higher education

common stereotypes, not in evidence

It would be better to have data of convicts from the justice system but alas, this data is not being compiled, at least I do not know of any. This is a huge problem in many cases related to crime and migration, the government simply does not collect the relevant data to answer key questions.

claim not in evidence

Do you have any evidence to back up your claim?

Article:

Auch Studien, die das Handeln von Polizist*innen in Deutschland untersuchten, deuten auf diskriminierende Praktiken hin. In einer Studie zum Umgang der Polizei mit ethnischen Minderheiten und sogenannten sozialen Randgruppen in Duisburg-Marxloh wurde zum Beispiel festgestellt, dass diese, vor allem schwarze Männer, häufiger von der Polizei kontrolliert und geduzt wurden als andere Personengruppen.Zur Auflösung der Fußnote[30]

Source: https://www.bpb.de/shop/zeitschriften/apuz/antirassismus-2020/316766/rassismus-und-polizei-zum-stand-der-forschung/

The whole article is a thorough overview.

I'm really not fond of the AfD

claim not in evidence
you appropriate their propaganda of spouting stereotypes and stoking fears without providing any evidence or a nuanced understanding of the phenomenon. In short, you post like a xenophobe.

 

[Ann K]

Do you have any evidence to back up your claim? Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me, or grasping straws.

It wasn't a claim. It was a reasonable conclusion. Allow me to simplify it for you: IF there is any anti-immigrant bias among the police, THEN the statistics regarding suspects may be skewed. (I made no mention of a conspiracy between political figures or the media; that's all your invention.)

Do you have a claim to the contrary?

 

[Bernd Lauert]

you post like a xenophobe

So anyone reporting inconvenient facts is now 'xenophobic'. Wonderful ad hominem.

The statement to debunk was that Afghani and African immigrants are more likely to be suspected of gang rapes. Can you debunk this claim? Is it a right-wing conspiracy theory? I have provided ample evidence to support this statement.

Here is a new article by the Neue Züricher Zeitung.

Im Jahr 2022 gab es laut der Polizeilichen Kriminalstatistik fast 12 000 gemeldete Fälle von Vergewaltigung und sexueller Nötigung. Von den gerundet 10 000 Tatverdächtigen waren 6366 Deutsche und 3679 Nichtdeutsche. Zuwanderer machten 1155 der Tatverdächtigen aus. Sie sind damit überrepräsentiert bei Straftaten gegen die sexuelle Selbstbestimmung, gemessen an ihrem geringen Bevölkerungsanteil.

Denn der Anteil von Asylmigranten lag 2022 bei weniger als 2,5 Prozent an der Gesamtbevölkerung. Sie sind nicht nur bei Vergewaltigungen, sondern auch bei anderen Gewaltdelikten wie Mord und Totschlag stark überrepräsentiert.

Wer denkt, dass der hohe Anteil an jungen, alleinstehenden Männern bei der Migration eine Ursache für die vielen Sexualdelikte ist, liegt richtig. Während in der Gesamtbevölkerung 49 Prozent männlich sind (und viele älter oder jünger sind als der durchschnittliche Asylmigrant), machen, ohne Ukrainer, Männer etwa zwei Drittel der irregulären Zuwanderer aus. Doch das allein erklärt die Überrepräsentation bei Straftaten nicht.

Bei Vergewaltigungen sticht die Überrepräsentation männlicher Flüchtlinge geradezu hervor. Im Jahr 2020 waren Flüchtlinge mit 14 Prozent um das Fünffache bei begangenen Vergewaltigungen überrepräsentiert, wie Koopmans in seinem Buch «Die Asyl-Lotterie» schreibt. Bei Sexualdelikten insgesamt – dazu gehört auch sexuelle Belästigung und sexueller Missbrauch – sind sie 3,3-mal so häufig tatverdächtig, wie ihr Anteil an der Bevölkerung vermuten liesse.

Gründe dafür sind sowohl die eigenen Gewalterfahrungen der Männer in ihrer Kindheit und Jugend, die Gewalt für sie wie ein legitimes Mittel erscheinen lassen, als auch die teilweise archaischen Strukturen in ihren Herkunftsländern.

Islamisch geprägte Länder wie Afghanistan, Iran und Syrien sind – im Gegensatz zu westlichen Nationen – gekennzeichnet durch ihre patriarchale Struktur. Frauen und Mädchen werden systematisch herabgesetzt und als Menschen zweiter Klasse behandelt.

In der Kriminalstatistik macht sich der Unterschied bei den Herkunftsländern stark bemerkbar. Koopmans hält fest, dass Syrer nicht zweimal so häufig, wie es bei den gesamten Straftaten der Fall ist, sondern dreimal so oft eines Sexualdeliktes verdächtigt werden. Migranten aus Afghanistan und Pakistan – beides Länder mit sehr hoher Geschlechterungleichheit – sind ebenfalls als Tatverdächtige gerade bei Sexualdelikten stark vertreten.

https://www.nzz.ch/international/as...nde-frauen-opfer-von-fluechtlingen-ld.1769909

So the NZZ says the same I did. Non-German nationals and especially 'Zuwanderer' (see police definition in my previous post) are over-represented in crimes against sexual self-determination compared to their share of the population. This goes especially for asylum seekers which are several times more likely to commit rapes than the general population. And no, this cannot simply be explained away by their demographic (mostly young men) but according to Dutch sociologist and migration researcher Ruud Koopmans is rooted within the patriarchal and chauvinistic culture of their home countries who treat women like lesser beings. The country of origin plays a significant role, again with asylum seekers from Islamic countries like Syria being 3 times more likely to be suspect in a sex-related crime than their share of the population would expect. Which is again exactly what I posted above.

 

[NoParty]

We only have the data of suspects from police. It would be better to have data of convicts from the justice system but alas, this data is not being compiled, at least I do not know of any.

So, you seem to acknowledge that "suspects" is a grossly inferior metric, compared to actual convictions.

And yet you use it anyway, to support a vague implication that some people/nationalities are superior to others

(Go "Orientals!" as you call them) ;P As many have pointed out, once you norm for the apples to oranges issues, the superiority of

native Germans is pretty sketchy. If I were German, and a student of the last 110 years of world history,

I might have incentive to vilify other groups.

Lastly, I live near the U.S./Mexican border. Routinely, darker skinned people with names like

Martinez and Lopez are accused--on weak evidence--of various crimes. I think this is actually

a poorer reflection on those making the accusations, than the supposed "suspects."

 

[Mendel]

So anyone reporting inconvenient facts is now 'xenophobic'. Wonderful ad hominem.

You cut my quote short:

you appropriate their propaganda of spouting stereotypes and stoking fears without providing any evidence or a nuanced understanding of the phenomenon. In short, you post like a xenophobe.

You have replied, but not provided any of the missing evidence, or nuance.

 

[Mendel]

Can you debunk this claim? Is it a right-wing conspiracy theory?

The data is correct, but the reporting on it is still bunk because it omits relevant context:

In short: if you compare apples with apples, nationality ceases to be an important factor. You can understand crime better by looking at the socioeconomic status of the perpetrators than by looking at their nationality.

If you keep disregarding these points, that doesn't help dispel the impression you're leaving here.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

Aaaand more ad hominem and personal attacks.

Please refrain from accusing me of any sort of 'superiority'. Where did I state this? Your terminology implies a racist context.

Your 'apples and oranges' claim has also been debunked. Even when adjusting for demographic, certain nationalities remain significantly overrepresented as suspects in crimes against sexual self-determination. It's not (just) about young men. It's about poorly educated young men from countries with a culture of toxic mascilinity. These are the migrants likely to cause problems.

Regarding suspects, your argument is valid but we need to work with the data we have, which comes from police, who deal with suspects. Yet I have to say I find your implication of systematic discrimination of migrants by German authorities problematic. This is quite a serious accusation. Do you have any evidence for this claim?

So yes, unfortunately we do not have detailed statistics of convicts but note that according to Statista, over 1/3 of prison inmates in Germany do not have German citizenship.

Im Jahr 2022 gab es insgesamt 42.492 Strafgefangene und Sicherungsverwahrte in deutschen Justizvollzugsanstalten, davon hatten 27.995 Personen eine deutsche Staatsangehörigkeit und 14.497 Personen eine ausländische Staatsangehörigkeit. Die Mehrzahl dieser Personen hatte bereits mehrere Vorstrafen und war nicht zum ersten Mal im Gefängnis.

https://de.statista.com/statistik/d...fgefangene-in-deutschland-nach-nationalitaet/

In cities like Berlin or Hamburg, half of prison inmates do not have German citizenship.

Der Anteil nichtdeutscher Gefangener hat in vielen Bundesländern stark zugenommen. In Hamburg und Berlin kommt schon jeder zweite Häftling aus dem Ausland

https://rp-online.de/politik/deutsc...r-mehr-auslaender-sitzen-in-haft_aid-36501705

I still hope for a more productive discussion and exchange of evidence and not accusations of racism. That's unworthy of this place.

 

[Mendel]

Your 'apples and oranges' claim has also been debunked. Even when adjusting for demographic, certain nationalities remain significantly overrepresented as suspects in crimes against sexual self-determination.

No, this has not been debunked in this thread.
Your source adjust by age and marital status at best, but that's not enough to reflect the socio-economic demographic of the suspects.

It's not (just) about young men. It's about poorly educated young men from countries with a culture of toxic mascilinity. These are the migrants likely to cause problems.

not in evidence

Do you have any evidence for this claim?

yes, posted upthread, and then ignored by you

I still hope for a more productive discussion and exchange of evidence and not accusations of racism. That's unworthy of this place.

why did you post racist claims without providing evidence for them, then?

https://rp-online.de/politik/deutsc...r-mehr-auslaender-sitzen-in-haft_aid-36501705

I still hope for a more productive discussion and exchange of evidence and not accusations of racism. That's unworthy of this place.

and so is cherry-picking data. from your source:

Die stärksten Gruppen stellten dabei Häftlinge aus Polen, Tunesien, Libyen, Tschechien und Georgien.

these are not the countries listed in your post, or in the OP ("Afghani and African immigrants").
I'd call Poland and the Czech Republic catholic.

 

[Mendel]

It's about poorly educated young men from countries with a culture of toxic mascilinity.

Does this include Australia, the UK, and the USA?

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/rape-statistics-by-country

 

[Ann K]

"

Does this include Australia, the UK, and the USA?

It would appear that no statistics were obtained for many countries, including the USA. From your reference, here's a caution about the validity of the pictorial chart:

First, countries with strong protections for women often use a much broader and more inclusive definition of rape than others, which can make the number/frequency of rapes appear higher than it does in countries with fewer protections for women and/or narrower definitions of rape.
- Secondly, in some cultures, reporting a rape can lead to the victim being disowned, charged with a crime themselves, or subjected to violence. For example, rape victims in Saudi Arabia may be flogged or stoned for the crime of having sex out of wedlock. In such cultures, many or most rapes go unreported.
- These two factors are the main reasons highly developed countries such as the United Kingdom and Sweden appear to have roughly 2,000 times more rapes than Saudi Arabia and Tanzania. If the definitions of rape and cultural support for the victims were identical, the data would change dramatically.

 

[Mendel]

It would appear that no statistics were obtained for many countries, including the USA. From your reference, here's a caution about the validity of the pictorial chart:

See https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/rape-statistics-by-state for US statistics.

The secondary point of me posting this graph is that numbers are worthless without context: the conundrum of the reporting rate is also likely to have a racial bias that impacts the context of the claim in the OP: if rapes committed by German-passing men are under-reported compared to rapes by foreign-looking men, that would affect the crime statistics and disguise the actual rate at which rapes are committed by foreigners. But the people who use this statistic conflate the two. So the OP claim is suspect for the same reason that this map is.

P.S. Historian Miriam Gebhardt claims 860,000 rapes of German women by soldiers in the wake of WW2: the occupying armies would mostly fit the "young, single, male" (and far from home) demographic as well. The idea that it's a man's nationality or culture that makes them more likely to become a rapist needs to be challenged. The above map, although flawed, is one way to do it.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

if rapes committed by German-passing men are under-reported compared to rapes by foreign-looking men, that would affect the crime statistics and disguise the actual rate at which rapes are committed by foreigners. But the people who use this statistic conflate the two. So the OP claim is suspect for the same reason that this map is.

So you are now implying that German woman who have become victims of gang-rape are inherently racist and several times more likely to report being gang-raped by non-German nationals than being gang-raped by foreigners? Please post sources for this claim. And you are comparing the numbers from a German police report to missing rape statistics from countries like Afghanistan where systematic rape is common and reporting being raped can lead to prison or even death sentence for women who are often 'judged' by their families or clans before police can even intervene?

Being a woman under the Taliban regime is very difficult in Afghanistan. The extreme misogyny of the Taliban deprives women of all freedom and human rights. Forced marriages and rapes of girls and women have significantly increased.

The Taliban commit systematic rapes of women of minority groups and Persian speaking communities in northern Afghan provinces. Taliban persecution of Shias and ethnic minority groups in Afghanistan mirrors the crimes ISIS committed against girls and women in Syria.

https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/the-worsening-situation-of-women-in-afghanistan

Just 21, Gulnaz had been released that week from prison, where she had given birth to her daughter Moska. Gulnaz seemed younger than her years, but she held my gaze almost defiantly as she told her story.
She had been imprisoned in a Kabul women's jail after her cousin's husband raped her.
The crime came to light when the unmarried Gulnaz became pregnant.

The police came and arrested both Gulnaz and her attacker. Under Afghan law she too was found guilty of a crime known as "adultery by force", with her sentence increased on appeal to 12 years.
When the case aroused condemnation abroad, President Hamid Karzai intervened and Gulnaz was pardoned.
Looking bewildered at her sudden freedom, she told me all she wanted was to go home to her family. In order to do that, she was prepared to marry the man who raped her - otherwise their families would be enemies.
The problem for Gulnaz is that if her attacker will not marry her - or cannot come up with a substantial dowry - the "stain" on her family's honour will remain, perhaps with lethal consequences for Gulnaz and her child. That may mean she can never go home.
For a single mother, unskilled and unqualified, there are few ways for a woman to survive in Afghanistan without family support.

Married off to a 30-year-old man for a dowry of about $4,500 (£3,000), Sahar had been kept locked in a cellar for several months, starved and tortured by her husband and his family. It is still not really clear why.
Sahar may not have been able to speak, but her injuries did.
Burns to her arm and her fragile body, a swollen black eye, clumps of hair torn out. One small hand was scarred, where her fingernail had been pulled out.
The abuse aroused public indignation in Afghanistan, as well as horror abroad.

But Sahar was perhaps, in a strange way, lucky.
She did not run away from a violent marriage, as some Afghan brides have, but was instead rescued from it by police. So she cannot be found guilty of what might otherwise be deemed a "moral crime", as other young Afghan women have been.
Both Sahar and Gulnaz's stories are extreme. But they made me wonder how many other women in Afghanistan still suffer in silence, 10 years after the fall of the Taliban.
There are laws banning violence against women, but enforcing them is hard. Tradition and family or community honour is often seen as more important than an individual's misery or misfortune.
Poverty and lack of education also mean under-age marriage remains common.
When Sahar did try to escape her torturers, it was apparently the neighbours who brought her back to them, before the police intervened.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-south-asia-16543036

By all respect we can make jokes regarding flying saucers and flat earth any day but please show some decency and remember we are dealing with real crimes and real victims here who are not just abstract numbers or absurd theories. I do not think this thread is the right place for sarastic remarks and funny memes.

Also I feel we must correct a misunderstanding regarding the term 'suspect'. Unfortunately I found out 'Tatverdächtiger' cannot be accurately translated by 'suspect' as it is a German legal term defined as

Tatverdächtige sind in der Polizeilichen Kriminalstatistik (PKS) alle Personen, die nach Abschluss der polizeilichen Ermittlungen aufgrund ausreichender Anhaltspunkte verdächtig sind, eine rechtswidrige (Straf-)Tat begangen zu haben. Dazu zählen auch Mittäter, Anstifter und Gehilfen. In die Gesamtzahl der Tatverdächtigen fließen auch strafunmündige Kinder unter 14 Jahren mit ein. Ein Tatverdächtiger, für den im Berichtszeitraum mehrere Fälle der gleichen Straftat festgestellt wurden, wird in der PKS nur einmal gezählt ("echte" Tatverdächtigenzählung). Die PKS wird durch das Bundeskriminalamt (BKA) erstellt.

https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Staat/Justiz-Rechtspflege/Glossar/tatverdaechtige.html

Tatverdächtige are the ones suspected to have committed a crime due to enough evidence collected after a police investigation is complete and the case is handed over to court, which is where police work ends. It is not someone who is found to be acting suspicious by a policeman on the street or who is wanted and on the run. While it is true there might be a racial bias in police work like drug related searches and raids in areas more frequented by foreign nationals as implied in the report from the bpb you linked as 'evidence' of racial bias in German police, which rightfully critizises a lack or data on this subject, I would think most crimes against sexual self-determination are reported by either victims or witnesses and not because police stops or searches people who look like they could have committed such crimes on the street it is therefore in my opinion far less likely to be impacted by police bias than drug crimes. Yet we do lack data on this topic. The article also has not found any evidence for systemic racism in the German police system, just that in one survey black men were being stopped more often and being treated less politely by police officers. This does NOT make them Tatverdächtige and has nothing to do with rape statistics. Your claim implies systemic racism throughout the German police apparatus for which you provide no evidence.

why did you post racist claims without providing evidence for them, then?

Please specify exactly where I did post racist claims without providing evidence. I have put a lot of work in collecting and presenting evindence. I will try to address the remaining points of your criticism but please understand this takes many hours of work. I will try my best to answer them, respond to questions and correct myself where I have been imprecise or even wrong.

 

[Mendel]

Please specify exactly where I did post racist claims without providing evidence.

See https://www.metabunk.org/threads/ne...ng-rape-than-native-germans.13279/post-307115

 

[Mendel]

So you are now implying that German woman who have become victims of gang-rape are inherently racist and several times more likely to report being gang-raped by non-German nationals than being gang-raped by foreigners?

No, I don't imply that. You yourself go on to explain that the social system can bias which crimes are reported and which are not, regardless of the individual victim.
The work of Miriam Gebhardt also showed that German women were several times more likely to report rapes by Russian soldiers than by G.I.s.

And you are comparing the numbers from a German police report to missing rape statistics from countries like Afghanistan

No, I do not, where did you get that idea?

I do not think this thread is the right place for sarastic remarks and funny memes.

I do not think I posted any.

Also I feel we must correct a misunderstanding regarding the term 'suspect'. Unfortunately I found out 'Tatverdächtiger' cannot be accurately translated by 'suspect' as it is a German legal term

Every single dictionary I could find suggests that the translation is accurate.

, I would think most crimes against sexual self-determination are reported by either victims or witnesses and not because police stops or searches people who look like they could have committed such crimes on the street it is therefore in my opinion far less likely to be impacted by police bias than drug crimes. Yet we do lack data on this topic.

No, we don't lack data. Here is data that shows that foreigners are more likely to be reported to the police, largely because they're often strangers to the victims. (There's probably more.)
https://muenster.polizei.nrw/sites/default/files/2016-11/Anzeigeverhalten.pdf

My personal impression is that women still struggle with the question whether police will believe them, which may make reporting prejudice-conforming acts easier for them.

The article also has not found any evidence for systemic racism in the German police system, just that in one survey black men were being stopped more often and being treated less politely by police officers.

That is systemic racism, though. The article I cited has more examples, too.

 

[Mendel]

from countries like Afghanistan where systematic rape is common and reporting being raped can lead to prison or even death sentence for women who are often 'judged' by their families or clans before police can even intervene?

you cite rapes by the Taliban and ISIS, i.e. men abusing their authority, and who would not be allowed to immigrate to Germany. You add anecdotal evidence. I can give you Fritzl and Priklopil, does that prove Austrians are a depraved nation of rapists? Or Belgians Dutroux and Nihoul? How does this square with the actually low reported rates of rapes?

Your standard of evidence is poor. Your arguments seem designed to scandalize your audience; they're not an exchange of evidence that facilitates "productive discussion". Your claims about nationalities should be rooted in comparative data, like my map, but they're not.

 

[NoParty]

I still hope for a more productive discussion and exchange of evidence and not accusations of racism. That's unworthy of this place.

Well, I definitely did not call you a racist.

However, any time one advances data in a way that clearly implies that certain races or nationalities are inferior to others
(which is plainly the plan in this "Marc Vanguard International"...seemingly an entity known only for this, and only since late November???) series of posts...it has to be done very carefully...based on rock-solid data...
or the speaker will be thought a racist by many.

Here you clearly acknowledge that the inflammatory, defaming data is second rate, at best. But continue to argue for it...

 

[Bernd Lauert]

See https://www.metabunk.org/threads/ne...ng-rape-than-native-germans.13279/post-307115

This is an post made by you. You again lack to provide any citations for allegedly racist comments I posted. Please refrain from such serious accusations without proper evidence.

Regarding sarcastic remarks:

I do not think I posted any.

Was the "Dude, go vote AfD" post necessary? Was the 'Does this include Australia, the UK, and the USA?' post regarding toxic masculinity necessary?

Also your world map is neither useful nor comparative and you know this. You said yourself you purposefully posted it to show how numbers are worthless without context.

you cite rapes by the Taliban and ISIS, i.e. men abusing their authority, and who would not be allowed to immigrate to Germany.

And why would such men not be allowed to immigrate to Germany? What would prevent them from entering? May I remind you that a Taliban official recently held a speech in Cologne without any problems? And this does not even account for migrants illegally entering the country who cannot be prevented from doing so and have a right to apply for asylum just like anybody else. But this is an entirely different story and irrelevant for this topic.
https://www1.wdr.de/nachrichten/taliban-funktionaer-propaganda-rede-koeln-100.html

Anyway, I feel we are talking about different topics. This was meant in response to your sarcastic remark about toxic masculinity in Australia, the UK, and the USA. You know very well that reporting rape in those countries is entirely different story than in countries like Afghanistan and what women have to suffer there. Also how does this map invalidate PKS data? Yes, data always needs context put come on, it's not the same level. Apples and oranges.

No, we don't lack data. Here is data that shows that foreigners are more likely to be reported to the police, largely because they're often strangers to the victims. (There's probably more.)
https://muenster.polizei.nrw/sites/default/files/2016-11/Anzeigeverhalten.pdf

That's misleading. This data is for all crimes, not for women reporting rapes. It is however indeed problematic that women appear to report significantly less incidents of sexual violence from family member and friends. Somewhat understandable but that doesn't make it any better.
All in all the study concludes that a higher motivation to report crimes by non-German perpetrators cannot be unequivocally confirmed. The main motivation factors to report a crime are (unurprisingly) physical and material damage of the crime.

Nach den Ergebnissen der vorliegenden Studien ist eine höhere Anzeigemotivation gegenüber nichtdeutschen Tätern insgesamt jedoch nicht eindeutig bestätigt. In der dargestellten Untersuchung von Mansel und Albrecht (2003) zeichnet sich vielmehr ab, dass der Wirkfaktor "Ethnie des Täters" insbesondere gegenüber den Tatmerkmalen "physischer Schaden" und "materieller Schaden" in den Hintergrund tritt.

You did not cite any source for the work of Miriam Gebhart or her claims but in any case, data from WWII may not be adequate in the 21st century.

You fail to provide concrete evidence for systematic bias and racism in the police system. None of the studies in the bpd article, most of which are from countries other than Germany by the way, contain evidence of such massive misconduct that could explain away the discrepancies in the ratio of Tatverdächtige with and without German nationality. See comments by Koopmans in my next post.

Regarding the term Tatverdächtige and translating it to 'suspect', according to Merriam-Webster a suspect is one that is suspected, especially : a person suspected of a crime.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/suspect
This is not the same as the German legal term Tatverdächtiger which means a person formally suspected of a crime after a police investigation is completed. I am not familiar with the US police and justice system so I thought a clarification would be a good idea.

Here you clearly acknowledge that the inflammatory, defaming data is second rate, at best. But continue to argue for it...

How can data be inflammatory or defaming? It consists of numbers.

No, I argue for the data of the PKS report and the conclusions drawn from the work of Ruud Koopmans. The OP graph does not cite any sources and indeed seems highly questionable, also does not cite sources. This however does not invalidate the statement that migrants from certain countries are significantly more likely to be Tatverdächtige in gang rapes and other severe crimes against sexual self-determination compared to German nationals. Also I defend nobody. I am looking for accurate data without ideological bias. Which I admit is very hard. It would at least be nice to find some middle ground between the extremes that are dividing our society.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

To debunk the statement that elevated crime rates of non-Geerman nationals can solely be explained by demography or socioeconomic status:
Koopman has thoroughly refuted the claim that demography and socioeconomic background can explain away the massively elevated crime rates in migrants from certain societies and he also offers a more reasonable explanation. I was only manage to obtain this book in Dutch, so here's the original including a google translation. I am afraid it is not perfect.
Source: Ruud Koopmans - De Asielloterij, (2023) ISBN: 9789044652697 - Dutch

Een deel van de sterke vertegenwoordiging van vluchtelingen onder de verdachten van
criminaliteit zou dus te wijten kunnen zijn aan het feit dat de leeftijdsgroepen die in het
algemeen een hoge criminaliteitslast hebben, sterk vertegenwoordigd zijn onder de
vluchtelingen. Ook hier kunnen we extrapoleren wat het misdaadcijfer van de totale bevolking
zou zijn als haar leeftijdsverdeling dezelfde zou zijn als die van de vluchtelingenbevolking. In
dat geval zou het misdaadcijfer 43 procent hoger liggen (1,43 keer hoger). Maar zelfs dit komt
niet in de buurt van de werkelijke criminaliteitslast onder vluchtelingen, die 3,3 keer zo hoog
is.
Als men geslacht en leeftijd combineert, worden de verschillen tussen vluchtelingen en de
totale bevolking nog kleiner. Dit is te wijten aan het feit dat de oververtegenwoordiging van
mannen onder vluchtelingen bijzonder hoog is in de groep van 14- tot 39-jarigen, namelijk 71
procent. Vluchtelingen vormen ruim 11,1 procent van de verdachten en 5,6 procent van alle
mannen in deze leeftijdsgroep, wat neerkomt op een oververtegenwoordiging met een factor
twee. Vrouwelijke vluchtelingen tussen de 14 en 39 jaar vormen 5,2 procent van de
vrouwelijke verdachten in deze leeftijdsgroep. In het geval van ernstige geweldsdelicten,
waarvoor in de statistieken geen uitsplitsingen naar leeftijdsgroep en vluchtelingenstatus
beschikbaar zijn, zou deze demografisch gecorrigeerde oververtegenwoordiging van
vluchtelingen nog hoger zijn, aangezien het niet-gecorrigeerde percentage niet ruim drie, maar
ongeveer vijf keer zo hoog is als bij de bevolking als geheel.
Criminologische studies hebben ook gewezen op het belang van culturele factoren om te
verklaren waarom jonge mannen uit bepaalde migrantengroepen bijzonder sterk
vertegenwoordigd zijn onder daders van geweldsdelicten – ook in vergelijking met andere
mannen van dezelfde leeftijd. De criminoloog Christian Pfeiffer en zijn collega's schrijven
hierover:
Alle migrantengroepen melden meer dan twee keer zo vaak dat ze in hun jeugd te maken
hebben gehad met ernstig ouderlijk geweld, dat wil zeggen dat ze zijn geslagen of
geschopt. Slechts een zeer klein deel van de Duitse respondenten (2,7 procent)
onderschreef mannelijkheidsnormen; bij Turkse jongeren en jongeren uit het voormalige
Joegoslavië ligt dit percentage zes keer hoger.
'Geweldlegitimerende mannelijkheidsnormen' werden door de auteurs gemeten door middel
van instemming met twee stellingen: 'Een man die niet bereid is zich met geweld te verdedigen
tegen beledigingen is een zwakkeling', en 'De man is het hoofd van het gezin en mag zich zo
nodig met geweld doen gelden'.8 Dergelijke opvattingen, samen met ervaringen van ouderlijk
geweld, verklaren volgens de onderzoekers een groot deel van de verschillen in gewelddadige
delinquentie tussen jongeren met en zonder migratieachtergrond, en aanzienlijk meer dan
sociaal-economische factoren zoals het opleidingsniveau van de ouders of de
uitkeringsafhankelijkheid van het gezin. Als de ervaringen met geweld in het ouderlijk huis en
de geweldlegitimerende normen van mannelijkheid constant worden gehouden, verdwijnt zelfs
het hele verschil tussen jongeren met en zonder migratieachtergrond. Deze bevinding is des te
belangrijker voor de gewelddadige delinquentie van vluchtelingen omdat Pfeiffer en zijn
collega's aantonen dat wat de auteurs een 'geïmporteerde machocultuur' noemen bijzonder
sterk is onder in het buitenland geboren jongeren:

De stelling van een 'geïmporteerde machocultuur' wordt ook ondersteund door een recente
bevinding uit de scholierenenquête van 2015, die representatief is voor heel Nedersaksen.
Bij de drie groepen met de hoogste criminaliteitsbelasting, jongeren die uit het voormalige
Joegoslavië, Turkije of andere islamitische herkomstlanden stammen, laten de gegevens
een significant verschil zien wanneer we vragen naar hun geboorteland. Van degenen onder
hen die in Duitsland zijn geboren en opgegroeid, onderschrijft 20 procent
geweldlegitimerende mannelijkheidsnormen. Dat percentage ligt bij jongeren die in het
voormalige Joegoslavië, Turkije of andere islamitische landen zijn geboren met 29,8
procent aanzienlijk hoger. Wij interpreteren deze bevinding als een bewijs dat het
opgroeien in Duitsland een cultureel leerproces mogelijk heeft gemaakt. Daarentegen
lijken degenen die pas in de loop van hun jeugd naar Duitsland zijn gekomen nog sterker
verankerd in de tradities die de cultuur van hun herkomstland bepalen. Dit geldt
waarschijnlijk nog meer voor degenen die de afgelopen twee jaar als mannelijke
asielzoekers van veertien tot minder dan dertig jaar naar Duitsland zijn gekomen.9
Het feit dat de landen waaruit sinds 2015 de meeste vluchtelingen naar Europa zijn gekomen
tot de landen met de grootste genderongelijkheid wereldwijd behoren, maakt deze conclusie
nog aannemelijker. Het 'Global Gender Gap Report' van het World Economic Forum (WEF)
vergelijkt 152 landen voor het jaar 2020. Syrië, het belangrijkste land van herkomst van
vluchtelingen, blijkt het land te zijn met de op drie na hoogste genderongelijkheid ter wereld.
In Pakistan en Irak, twee andere belangrijke herkomstlanden van vluchtelingen, is de situatie
van vrouwen nog slechter (Jemen sluit de lijst af). Iran, Gambia, Guinee, Marokko, Nigeria,
Algerije en Turkije behoren eveneens tot de dertig landen waar vrouwen het meest
achtergesteld zijn. Van deze dertig zijn er 24 in meerderheid islamitisch.
Afghanistan is niet opgenomen in de gegevens van het WEF, maar wel in de Social
Institutions and Gender Index van de OESO, waarin de genderongelijkheid van 120 landen over
de hele wereld wordt gemeten. Afghanistan behoort samen met Pakistan, Irak, Iran en andere
landen – Syrië is niet opgenomen in de OESO-index – tot de twaalf landen waar de ongelijkheid
tussen mannen en vrouwen als 'zeer groot' wordt geclassificeerd. Tien van deze twaalf landen
hebben een islamitische meerderheid. Van bijzonder belang voor geweld tegen vrouwen is het
deel van de index dat betrekking heeft op 'schendingen van de lichamelijke integriteit'. Deze
omvatten fysiek geweld tegen vrouwen, de prevalentie van vrouwelijke genitale verminking en
beperkingen van de reproductieve autonomie.
Guinee, een West-Afrikaans land vanwaaruit de laatste jaren steeds meer asielzoekers
komen, is wereldwijd het land waar het met de lichamelijke integriteit van vrouwen het slechtst
gesteld is. Ook Gambia, een ander belangrijk West-Afrikaans herkomstland, en Afghanistan
behoren in dit opzicht tot de tien meest problematische landen.
Het feit dat juist uit deze delen van de wereld, waar mannen opgroeien in een – vaak ook in
de wetgeving vastgelegde – cultuur van mannelijke dominantie en vrouwelijke
ondergeschiktheid, veel jonge mannen sinds 2015 als asielzoeker naar Europa zijn gekomen,
speelt een belangrijke rol bij de verklaring van hun sterke oververtegenwoordiging in de
geweldscriminaliteit.

Translation:
Part of the strong representation of refugees among those suspected of crime could therefore be due to the fact that the age groups living in the generally have a high crime burden, are strongly represented among the refugees. Here too we can extrapolate how high the crime rate of the total population would be if its age distribution were the same as that of the refugee population. In that case the crime rate would be 43 percent higher (1.43 times higher). But even this comes nowhere near the actual crime burden among refugees, which is 3.3 times higher. When gender and age are combined, the differences between refugees and the total population are smaller. This is due to the fact that the over-representation of men among refugees is particularly high in the group of 14 to 39 year olds, namely 71 per cent. Refugees make up more than 11.1 percent of suspects and 5.6 percent of all men in this age group, which amounts to an over-representation by one factor two. Female refugees between the ages of 14 and 39 make up 5.2 percent of the population female suspects in this age group. In the case of serious violent crimes, for which the statistics do not provide breakdowns by age group and refugee status, this demographically adjusted over-representation of refugees is even higher, since the unadjusted percentage is not more than three, but is about five times higher than in the population as a whole. Criminological studies have also pointed out the importance of cultural factors to explain why young men from certain migrant groups are particularly strong are represented among perpetrators of violent crimes – also in comparison with other men of the same age.

The criminologist Christian Pfeiffer and his colleagues write about this: All migrant groups report being more than twice as likely to experience it in their youth have experienced severe parental violence, i.e. they have been beaten or kicked. Only a very small proportion of German respondents (2.7 percent) endorsed masculinity norms; among Turkish young people and young people from former Yugoslavia this percentage is six times higher. "Violence-legitimizing masculinity norms" were measured by the authors using means of agreement with two statements: 'A man who is not prepared to defend himself with violence against insults is a weakling', and 'The man is the head of the family and is allowed to act like it necessary to assert itself by force'. Such views, together with parental experiences violence, explain a large part of the differences in violence between young people with and without a migration background, and significantly more than socio-economic factors such as the education level of the parents or the benefit dependence of the family. If the experiences with violence in the parental home and the violence-legitimizing norms of masculinity are held constant, the entire difference between young people with and without a migration background disappears . This finding is even more impressive and more important for the violent delinquency of refugees because Pfeiffer and his colleagues demonstrate that what the authors call an 'imported macho culture' is special is strong among foreign-born young people:

The thesis of an 'imported macho culture' is also supported by a recent finding from the 2015 student survey, which is representative for the whole of Lower Saxony. In the three groups with the highest crime burden, young people from former Yugoslavia, Turkey or other Muslim countries of origin, the data shows a significant difference when we ask about their country of birth. Of those who were born and raised in Germany, below 20 percent endorse violence-legitimizing masculinity norms. The percentage of young people who were born in Yugoslavia, Turkey or other Islamic countries was significantly higher with 29.8 percent. We interpret this finding as evidence that the growing up in Germany made a cultural learning process possible. On the other hand those who only came to Germany during their youth seem even stronger anchored in the traditions that determine the culture of their country of origin. This applies probably even more so for male asylum seekers aged fourteen to less than thirty who have come to Germany in for the past two years. The fact that the countries from which the most refugees have come to Europe since 2015 are among the countries with the greatest gender inequality worldwide, makes this conclusion even more plausible. The World Economic Forum's (WEF) Global Gender Gap Report compares 152 countries for the year 2020. Syria, the main country of origin of refugees, appears to be the country with the fourth highest gender inequality in the world. The situation of women is even worse in Pakistan and Iraq, two other important countries of origin for refugees (Yemen closes the list). Iran, Gambia, Guinea, Morocco, Nigeria, Algeria and Turkey are also among the thirty countries where women are the most disadvantaged. Of these thirty, 24 are majority Muslim. Afghanistan is not included in the WEF data, but is included in the OECD's Institutions Social and Gender Index, which covers gender inequality in 120 countries the whole world. Afghanistan belongs together with Pakistan, Iraq, Iran and others countries – Syria is not included in the OECD index – among the twelve countries where inequality between men and women is classified as 'very large'. Ten of these twelve countries have a Muslim majority. The part of the index that relates to 'violations of physical integrity' is of particular importance for violence against women. This includes physical violence against women, the prevalence of female genital mutilation and limitations of reproductive autonomy. Guinea, a West African country from which more and more asylum seekers have come in recent years is the country where the physical integrity of women has been stated as being the worst worldwide. Also Gambia, another important West African country of origin, and Afghanistan are among the ten most problematic countries in this respect. The fact that many young men have come to Europe as asylum seekers since 2015 precisely from these parts of the world where men grow up in a culture of male dominance and female subordination – often also established by law – plays an important role in explaining their strong over-representation in the violent crime.

 

[NoParty]

How can data be inflammatory or defaming?

When it's cherry picked...especially to support a racist, nationalist or xenophobic narrative.

Again, your energetic defense of this would be a red flag for many.

But continue to go for it. if you wish.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

Rest assured I will, as long as people deny evidence on an ideological basis.

Murders related to sexual relations, both rape-murders and divorce-related killings among migrants from cultures encouraging or even legally enforcing toxic masculinity.
Source: Ruud Koopmans - De Asielloterij, (2023) ISBN: 9789044652697 - Dutch

Ten tweede is het opvallend dat veel van de moorden door vluchtelingen verband houden met
seksualiteit en genderverhoudingen. Dit geldt uiteraard voor de moorden op Maria
Ladenburger en Susanna Feldmann, die gepaard gingen met verkrachting. In andere gevallen
hadden de dader en het slachtoffer een relatie gehad en wilde de dader de beëindiging door het
slachtoffer niet accepteren. Dit betreft bijvoorbeeld de wrede moord op de vijftienjarige jongen
Baran, wiens keel in 2020 door de Afghaan Nabi S. in Augsburg werd doorgesneden om wraak
te nemen op Barans oudere zus die van hem was gescheiden.34 Ook de moorden op Soopika P.,
hierboven genoemd, en op de zeventienjarige Mireille, die in 2018 in Flensburg door haar
Afghaanse ex-vriend werd vermoord, behoren tot deze categorie.35 In Hamburg vermoordde
een vluchteling uit Niger in 2018 zijn eigen kind en zijn ex-vriendin, naar verluidt vanwege
een geschil over de voogdij.36 Asma, een Tsjetsjeense vrouw, werd door haar man vermoord
omdat hij vermoedde dat zij een verhouding had met iemand anders. Mahin R., een 32 weken
zwangere Afghaanse vrouw, werd in 2017 in Leipzig door haar man gedood omdat hij – ten
onrechte, zo bleek uit de autopsie – vermoedde dat het kind van iemand anders was.37 Jaloezie,
scheiding, voogdijgeschillen, beledigde mannelijkheid: het zijn zeker geen motieven voor
moord die alleen bij vluchtelingen voorkomen. Maar wie naar de statistieken kijkt en
onderzoek doet naar de specifieke gevallen, kan zich niet aan de conclusie onttrekken dat zij in
deze dadergroep opvallend vaak de achtergrond vormen voor dodelijk geweld.
In sommige gevallen wordt heel duidelijk dat culturele en religieuze achtergronden een
motiverende rol speelden. Dit geldt voor het hierboven beschreven slachtoffer Maryam H., die
in 2021 in Berlijn door haar broers werd vermoord. De moordenaar van de Tsjetsjeense vrouw
Asma vertelde de politie dat het in zijn thuisland geaccepteerd is en dat het ook in de Koran zo
staat: 'Als een vrouw vreemdgaat, dan heeft de man het recht haar te doden.' Hagdad K., een
Afghaan die lange tijd in Iran had gewoond voordat hij naar Duitsland kwam, vermoordde
begin 2018 zijn gescheiden vrouw. Toen zij in het najaar van 2017 tijdens een gesprek met een
relatieconsulent meedeelde dat ze van hem wilde scheiden, had de latere dader de bij het
gesprek aanwezige tolk in vertrouwen genomen: 'Het is jammer dat we niet in Afghanistan
zijn, dan zou ik haar vermoorden.'38 De Afghaanse Farima Seadi werd door een landgenoot
vermoord omdat zij zich tot het christendom had bekeerd en hem ook tot deze stap had
aangemoedigd, hetgeen hem 'zeer verontrustte'. Daarbij moet men bedenken dat in landen als
Afghanistan en Tsjetsjenië – evenals in verschillende andere herkomstlanden van vluchtelingen
zoals Pakistan en Somalië – de sharia geldt, volgens welke vrouwen niet mogen scheiden
indien de echtgenoot daarmee niet instemt en 'misdaden' zoals overspel en 'afvalligheid' bij
wet worden bestraft, vaak met de doodstraf.

Translation:

Secondly, it is striking that many of the refugee killings are related to sexuality and gender relations. This obviously applies to the murders of Maria Ladenburger and Susanna Feldmann, which involved rape. In other cases the perpetrator and the victim had been in a relationship and the perpetrator did not accept the victim's decision to end the relationship. This concerns, for example, the brutal murder of the fifteen-year-old boy Baran, whose throat was slit by Afghan Nabi S. in Augsburg in 2020 for revenge to take on Baran's older sister who had divorced him. Also the murders of Soopika P., and on seventeen-year-old Mireille, who was murdered by her Afghan ex-boyfriend in Flensburg in 2018, belong to this category. In 2018 a refugee from Niger murdered his own child and his ex-girlfriend in Hamburg, allegedly because a dispute over custody. Asma, a Chechen woman, was murdered by her husband because he suspected that she was having an affair with someone else. Mahin R., a 32 weeks pregnant Afghan woman, was killed by her husband in Leipzig in 2017 because he – then wrongly, as the autopsy showed, suspected that the child belonged to someone else. Jealousy, divorce, custody disputes, insulted masculinity: these are certainly not motives for murder that occur only among refugees. But anyone who looks at the statistics and researches the specific cases, cannot escape the conclusion that in this perpetrator group these motives are remarkably often the background for deadly violence.
This applies to the victim Maryam H. described above, who was murdered by her brothers in Berlin in 2021. The murderer of the Chechen woman Asma told police that it is accepted in his home country and that it is also the case in the Koran it says: "If a woman cheats, the man has the right to kill her." Hagdad K., an Afghan who had lived in Iran for a long time before coming to Germany killed his divorced wife in early 2018. When, in the fall of 2017, during a conversation with a relationship counselor, she informed him that she wanted to divorce him, the later perpetrator confided to an interpreter present during the conversation: 'It's a shame we're not in Afghanistan then I would kill her.' The Afghan Farima Seadi was murdered by a fellow countryman because she had converted to Christianity and also encouraged him to take this step, which left him 'very worried'. It should be borne in mind that in countries such as Afghanistan and Chechnya – as well as in several other countries of origin of refugees such as Pakistan and Somalia – the Sharia applies, according to which women are not allowed to divorce if the husband does not agree to this and 'crimes' such as adultery and 'apostasy' are punishable by law, often with the death penalty.

Bottom line – Koopman states the obvious. Cultural background and socialization play a significant role in crime rates, especially in violent and sex-related crimes because cultural norms are simply different in different regions of the world. Denying or hiding such facts help nobody. Neither locals nor migrants.