Marijuana considered harmful?

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
I wouldn't discount that strong marijuana can trigger schizophrenic symptoms. It can have the same effect as a magic mushroom overdose. Some is so potent that it produces intense paranoia and persecution complexes in the right conditions that otherwise would not have arisen.
I think it's of concern to sensitive young people who's brains haven't fully settled down.
 

AluminumTheory

Senior Member.
I wouldn't discount that strong marijuana can trigger schizophrenic symptoms. It can have the same effect as a magic mushroom overdose. Some is so potent that it produces intense paranoia and persecution complexes in the right conditions that otherwise would not have arisen.
I think it's of concern to sensitive young people who's brains haven't fully settled down.
It could be, but I think those cases would be extremely rare and I would have to question the mental stability of that person in the first place before I could determine whether marijuana was the cause. And honestly alcohol can have far worse effects on the mentally unstable. I know alot of us grew up with Big Bird telling us that marijuana is horrible and anyone who has had the opportunity to experience it for themselves knows that claims of the dangers of marijuana are greatly exaggerated. As I've gotten older, I've encountered people from all walks of like who smoke marijuana, some quite often, some only socially. And I have found that it's not just the hippie haired stoner dude with the gnarly beard who lives off of Hot Pockets in his mother's basement. As far as I can see, it's really no more addictive than TV or video games.
 

AluminumTheory

Senior Member.
I believe that some lab tests did show that long term use can cause changes that can lead to paranoia in rats or mice.

Reading what users say is interesting also.

http://www.talkingaboutcannabis.com/your-stories/i-am-a-former-or-recovering-marijuana-addict/311/

Well like you said anything can be fatal in high doses. My question would be is how much THC were these mice exposed to. Was it a dosage that is comparable to a typical MJ smoker relative to body weight. I'm sure we can find plenty of stories of video game addiction, internet addiction, TV addiction, and even food addiction, and I'm sure those addictions can have lasting mental effects too. Some people are just very prone to addiction and if it wasn't MJ there is good chance that it would have been something else.
 

Soulfly

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It could be, but I think those cases would be extremely rare and I would have to question the mental stability of that person in the first place before I could determine whether marijuana was the cause. And honestly alcohol can have far worse effects on the mentally unstable. I know alot of us grew up with Big Bird telling us that marijuana is horrible and anyone who has had the opportunity to experience it for themselves knows that claims of the dangers of marijuana are greatly exaggerated. As I've gotten older, I've encountered people from all walks of like who smoke marijuana, some quite often, some only socially. And I have found that it's not just the hippie haired stoner dude with the gnarly beard who lives off of Hot Pockets in his mother's basement. As far as I can see, it's really no more addictive than TV or video games.
Before you jump to conclusions that I'm against pot, I'm stoned as I write this. :cool:
There are studies indicating an increased risk of schizophrenia and heavy marijuana use. Like with anything more studies need and should be done. Again nothing is 100% safe.
A scholarly Google yields a lot on the subject.
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=marijuana schizophrenia cannabinoid receptor 1&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=0,11&as_vis=1
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
If you doubt pot's power to induce schizophrenic symptoms, just eat one too many cookies while you're waiting for them to kick in. Then crawl into a safe place and wait for it to be over.
 

Alchemist

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Banned
It irks me how cigarettes cause 9/11's every 2-3 days yet they're perfectly legal yet marijuana still hasn't been linked to ONE fatality yet it's illegal.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
I hate cigarettes, and over all, I think pot should be legal. However we do need to know the problems that can go along with over use.

The Bible says it best "All things in moderation'. Pot, booze, big Macs, gambling etc.
 

JeffreyNotGeoffrey

Active Member
There was an amusing BBC documentary called Should I Smoke Dope. Or some variant that sounds vaguely square. It showed a woman visiting Amsterdam and wanting to view the results of smoking pot. Her first time was bad because she totally disregarded the barrista's(?) instructions of only taking a few hits to evaluate her reaction. instead she had 20 hits off her spliff. Of course she was wasted and trouble dealing with being outside. Later she learned moderation and the differences in potency. However she did comment on a familiar strong urge to snack on junk food and in general a fuzzy or a ditziness feeling. There was a side by side comparison of her driving drunk(on a test course) and while high. When she was drunk she overestimated her abilities and sped and could not steer or stop properly. When she was high she was the opposite and overly cautious. Both types of driving are dangerous but drunk driving seemed worse. There was also medical evals of her while high that showed high amounts of paranoia.

All in all pot is harmless when consumed responsibly. Just don't get wicked baked and: drive/operate machinery, go to work if it involves precision and calculations, make big life decisions, or in general when you need to be coherent.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
Years ago, the vet I was using had horrible cramps. They were so bad that she could not do surgery with them. The pain meds she got from the Doctor also left her unable to do a lot of work. She was telling a client one day about this, she had had to cancel a spay or neuter. Thirty min later the lady was back with a joint. One or 2 puffs and the pain was reduced and she was not stoned either. Pot is a muscle relaxer. One joint would last her 6-8 months. That is a medicinal use. I have never used pot myself, but there have been a few times that I wished I had had a joint, so I could relax. I am extremely sensitive to alcohol, half a glass of wine is enough to impair my typing and I expect my driving.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
This thread isn't my question, it was just general commenting.

I would say it of course has the potential for harm - as a smoke it has a large amount of tar and resin, and chronic bong smoking can induce wet lungs.
I don't quite understand if there is a difference in carcinogenic potential between it and tobacco, or if it's the more physically addicting nicotine-containing tobacco that relates to increased use and cancer risk. A lot of people combine the two as it creates a quicker hit. Smoke a pure joint and it tends to creep up on you.

It can induce panic or unease in body and mind, and it can, and mostly, induces a pleasant introspection that goes well with sensual input, especially movies and music.

Much like coffee, it has a generally desirable effect with some potential to create discomfort if overdone.
It can be ridiculously strong, and it will exacerbate confusion or emotional turmoil if it is already present and it is used regularly. If I smoke for a for a few days or longer my mental state deteriorates and I will get confused or frustrated easily.

Used sporadically its epiphany inducing potential is much higher.
Used regularly it is a reliable relaxant for those who know themselves.
Generally it is a consistent effect so the danger of inducing psychosis is related to unknown potency or existing emotional problems.

I don't smoke anymore, I had a period of psychosis after a couple of years of fairly regular use in my late teens early 20's after which it would always induce panic attacks and discomfort so I stopped.
After 10 years or so I tried small amounts with alcohol and found it was generally controllable and pleasant enough, I got back into it for about 6 months but the longer I did it the more it's desirability and worth to me dropped off dramatically.
It can become very boring.

I believe intentional altering of consciousness is a human right, but it's not always advisable to do so.
I guess I'll stick to alcohol for putting my brain and body in neutral when I need to.
(edit.. although I believe alcohol has more impact on the body than marijuana)
 

David Fraser

Senior Member.
Bloody hell ask a simple question Pete ;-)
When I trained in the 80's there was, and still is, considered a strong link between cannabis and psychosis. However it would be wrong to say that it is purely a causal link as many people with psychosis tend to self medicate. It is known that it can trigger symptoms but given the complex biopsychosocial nature of mental illness those symptoms may manifest anyway further down the line (it must be remembered that many studies rely on self-reporting as well).

I didn't counselling training at an addiction centre and addiction is one issue proponents always gloss over. The argument usually is "Oh it is not physically addictive, it is psychological". That's fine I guess as long as you are not in withdrawal and have the shakes and stomach cramps eh? At the end the the day addiction is addiction and treatment programmes are the same (except for alcohol and benzodiazepines when sudden withdrawal can kill you), and many withdrawal symptoms are the same. http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/drugs/Pages/Cannabisdangers.aspx
 
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Soulfly

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I don't quite understand if there is a difference in carcinogenic potential between it and tobacco, or if it's the more physically addicting nicotine-containing tobacco that relates to increased use and cancer risk. A lot of people combine the two as it creates a quicker hit. Smoke a pure joint and it tends to creep up on you.
It is far more common in Europe to roll spliffs. (weed and tobacco) The only time I really see it here in America, is when I'm at some type of hippie festival/burn. I have learned to always ask if there is tobacco in it before I hit a strangers joint.

That last sentence has after school special written all over it.
 

Grieves

Senior Member
I wouldn't discount that strong marijuana can trigger schizophrenic symptoms. It can have the same effect as a magic mushroom overdose. Some is so potent that it produces intense paranoia and persecution complexes in the right conditions that otherwise would not have arisen.
I think it's of concern to sensitive young people who's brains haven't fully settled down.
It should be noted an overdose on 'magic mushrooms' can be quite fatal. Though Psilocybin, the psychedelic compound itself isn't overly toxic, (less so than caffeine) the mushrooms have inherent health risks, and can become deadly if they spoil in any way. Marijuana can have uncommon effects on certain individuals with allergies/existing illness (mental or otherwise), but both the experience and the risks are comparatively speaking worlds apart. I seriously doubt it's even possible for a human being to ingest a fatal dose of THC, less it's in some concentrated pill form/they have an allergy.
 

joelb79

Active Member
I seriously doubt it's even possible for a human being to ingest a fatal dose of THC, less it's in some concentrated pill form/they have an allergy.

I dont. The LD50 is 1260mg/KG of pure THC. Hash/honey oil contains 60-80% of it. . If one was able to inject themselves with a suspension of decarboxylated THC (not THC-A) in a non-polar carier fluid, a fatal dose could be administered. So, 2 grams of honey oil per KG of body weight should exceed the LD50. Your going to need about 14-28g of dried cannabis to create 2g of the purified essential oils (honey oil) from the plant. It would take quite a bit of work and it would not be comfortable being injected with such a substance, but technically one could administer a fatal dose of THC.

Nobody ever will from smoking or eating it though.
 
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Soulfly

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Banned
Some hash oils can have a THC percentage of up over 95%. It would still be virtually impossible to smoke yourself dead with that stuff but the possibility of canabanoid poisoning could leave one not feeling well for a while. Ingesting large amounts has a much higher potential to kill someone. Still, it is highly unlikely due to the amount needed and the cost to do it.

Someone mentioned LD50 in rats in another thread, not sure if there is a way to equate that to humans. Someone more veresed in that sort of thing could figure out exactly how much it would take.

If a concentrate is damn near 100%, how many grams would someone need to cook into say a batch of brownies to make them poisonous?

Edit: Guess my question was answered just before I asked it. Thanks!
 

Soulfly

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Banned
Here is a a lab that produces some that is 87% THC. I have seen stuff labeled greater than 90% but the way they show the percentages I'm wondering if others are using the canabanoid total as their percentage and not just the THC.
http://tetralabs.com/puregold.php
Here is another result showing 84% thc.
http://tetralabs.com/puregold_technical.php
 

joelb79

Active Member
Some hash oils can have a THC percentage of up over 95%.
Edit: Guess my question was answered just before I asked it. Thanks!

95%? I am not sure, but I have seen some lab results and typically they are lower than 90%. Over 80% is rare and requires quite potent material and extra special extraction techniques and super clean solvents. The only reason I know so much has been an recent video on this subject posted on Vice. Nobody bothers discussing the LD50 of cannabis extracts because its quite irrelevant. We didn't get into how much solution one would be injecting.. I have no idea how to calculate that. I assume it would be painful and near impossible,.
 

SR1419

Senior Member.
I didn't counselling training at an addiction centre and addiction is one issue proponents always gloss over. The argument usually is "Oh it is not physically addictive, it is psychological". That's fine I guess as long as you are not in withdrawal and have the shakes and stomach cramps eh? At the end the the day addiction is addiction and treatment programmes are the same (except for alcohol and benzodiazepines when sudden withdrawal can kill you), and many withdrawal symptoms are the same. http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/drugs/Pages/Cannabisdangers.aspx

But isn't there a difference between physically addictive- as in a physiological response with underlying chemical interactions- and simply a habitual dependency? Don't chemicals like nicotine and cocaine (or whatever the active ingredient it is) interact with the body differently than THC?

I have known a lot of pot smokers- some very heavy- and have never known any to ever have any physical withdrawal symptoms or any real physiological reaction to quitting pot cold turkey....as opposed to cigarette smokers I have seen who couldn't quit if their life depended on it.

Maybe thats just a myth...any insight would be great- I am not well versed in this at all but have always wondered.
 

Soulfly

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Banned
But isn't there a difference between physically addictive- as in a physiological response with underlying chemical interactions- and simply a habitual dependency? Don't chemicals like nicotine and cocaine (or whatever the active ingredient it is) interact with the body differently than THC?

I have known a lot of pot smokers- some very heavy- and have never known any to ever have any physical withdrawal symptoms or any real physiological reaction to quitting pot cold turkey....as opposed to cigarette smokers I have seen who couldn't quit if their life depended on it.

Maybe thats just a myth...any insight would be great- I am not well versed in this at all but have always wondered.
I've been a heavy pot smoker for most of my life, I started far too early, around age 12. I have quit cold turkey three times and every time I have experienced some minor withdrawal symptoms. No apatite, restless sleep, cold sweats, vivid dreams and irritability. Typically lasting about a week to 10 days. Nothing serious. I have nothing to compare it to as I've never been addicted to something heavier. The symptoms are mild compared to other things but they are real.

Adding: The symptoms are more of an annoyance and inconvenience than anything else.
 
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Soulfly

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Oddly enough each time I quit I gained weight. I'm a slim guy, have weighed about the same since high school. quitting puts on about 10-15 lbs. Eating habits stay about the same too.
 
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Pete Tar

Senior Member.
It should be noted an overdose on 'magic mushrooms' can be quite fatal. Though Psilocybin, the psychedelic compound itself isn't overly toxic, (less so than caffeine) the mushrooms have inherent health risks, and can become deadly if they spoil in any way. Marijuana can have uncommon effects on certain individuals with allergies/existing illness (mental or otherwise), but both the experience and the risks are comparatively speaking worlds apart. I seriously doubt it's even possible for a human being to ingest a fatal dose of THC, less it's in some concentrated pill form/they have an allergy.


Yes poorly chosen words. By overdose, I mean enough to be tripping uncomfortably.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
I've been a heavy pot smoker for most of my life, I started far too early, around age 12. I have quit cold turkey three times and every time I have experienced some minor withdrawal symptoms. No apatite, restless sleep, cold sweats, vivid dreams and irritability. Typically lasting about a week to 10 days. Nothing serious. I have nothing to compare it to as I've never been addicted to something heavier. The symptoms are mild compared to other things but they are real.

Adding: The symptoms are more of an annoyance and inconvenience than anything else.

But do you typically smoke tobacco with it? Those are symptoms of nicotine withdrawal as well.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Oddly enough each time I quit I gained weight. I'm a slim guy, have weighed about the same since high school. quitting puts on about 10-15 lbs. Eating habits stay about the same too.
I know that anecdotally it keeps you thin.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Well presumably there is a boost in metabolism or the THC uses up sugars that triggers the need for food, but the food is being burned quicker or more efficiently so you don't gain weight.
 

Brainiachick

Active Member
I used to smoke blunts a lot but the withdrawal symptoms happened after I cut down and/or all together stopped smoking it that way.

Yeah there is no direct link, just my experience.


All the cannabis smokers that I know are quite thin and fit, so I guess that is a positive. I only ever knew one who was bulked up he was all muscles because he worked out and lifted weights regularly. Some, particularly in their early stages of usage, have reported increased/heightened appetite which then burns out very quickly. Although I have never carried out any research myself on the impact of THC on glycolysis and lipogenesis, I know that THC is an inhibitor of some glycolytic substances. This inhibitory characteristic could be responsible for a lower nutrient uptake and thereby weight maintenance during usage and weight gain during periods of no usage. This would definitely make an interesting experiment, Soulfly.

The only research I am aware of is that which found a link between cannabis usage and mental ill-health, but taking into account factors such as duration of usage, quantity of usage, and the age of first usage as pivotal factors in its onset of mental illness. The study also noted and was concerned about the high usage of cannabis amongst mental health patients and the concomitant effect of that usage on their well-being; the onset of psychosis, paranoia, etc; their ability to take their medication; and manage their mental ill-health. The general consensus amongst practitioners now is that cannabis usage could lead to mental illness and the usage could continue after the onset of such illness which in turn impacts negatively on the management and treatment of mental illness. However, the study did not determine if the high usage amongst mental health patients were solely as a result of their usage prior to the onset of mental ill-health or that they use it as a result of the mental ill-health.

Other causes of mental illness have absolutely nothing to do with cannabis usage, but cannabis is sometimes argued to exacerbate these underlying and pre-existing factors. Some users have absolutely no problems with it and yet others do.

I think in most cases, when someone's system agrees with it, it could be far worse dealing with the withdrawal symptoms.
 
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