I think chemtrails are real breaking news

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Post from IonDetox's user page:

http://www.youtube.com/user/iondetox

iondetox: Chemtrail people if you don't like getting trolled go to the link below and join. This is where chav and most of those trolls gather. He will not deny you because of freedom of speach. I'm Bunkerbuster.. let's troll the trolls, but follow the guidelines be respectful and offer alternative opinions with respect.. lol what a joke.. We should flood these people with facts and deal with them on their own site.. Let's ROLL https://www.metabunk.org

I would be happy to deal with facts. But this kind of subterfuge will not help your case. Let's just stick to the facts, and identify the areas of disagreement.
 
Last edited:

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
Bunkerbuster,
Please tell me the single, most irrefutable evidence that "chemtrails stuff" exists. Imagine yourself with five minutes on national TV or in front of Congress. What would you say?
 

Bunkerbuster

(AKA iondetox)
Ok now that we are on your site you want to have a honest and respectful debate. Why don't your people act respectful on other people's channel.
 

Bunkerbuster

(AKA iondetox)
Are you saying they they don't spray anything from jets? That there is not nozzles outfitted on jets to spray chemicals into the atmosphere? I just want to be clear on your position. So that I can give you my best response in five minutes.
 

MikeC

Closed Account
I watched the video & I don't get it - the contrails aren't even very long - he makes no attempt at all to show that they are lasting longer than 10-20 minutes as proof of them being chemtrails - some of them are obviously really short - just a few seconds. Sure some of them are long - but a jet traveling at 600mph does 10 miles every minute, so 10-20 minutes is 100-200 miles.

So how does he know they are chemtrails if not the length of time they hang around??
 

MikeC

Closed Account
Are you saying they they don't spray anything from jets? That there is not nozzles outfitted on jets to spray chemicals into the atmosphere?

appart from fuel dumping, crop dusters, fire fighters, insect and dispersant sprayers you mean?

I know of no such nozzles on commercial jets so I'll be interested in your take on this.

Just please do not make it Tankerenemy's infamously dishonest take on the KC-10 video - something accurate would be much better.

Thanks
 

Bunkerbuster

(AKA iondetox)
Are you suggesting that normal contrails last 30 minutes? Just to be clear? Remember what your administrator says about being scientific.. . let's not drift into false science.. please..
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Ok now that we are on your site you want to have a honest and respectful debate. Why don't your people act respectful on other people's channel.


They are not "my people". I act respectful. Other people decide for themselves.

Lets stick to the facts. Have you read much on contrailscience.com? Did you find any errors?
 

Bunkerbuster

(AKA iondetox)
I just re-read your post.. you did not watch my video.. because you are not .. you must be confused. I can show a chemtrail that last for hours.. so we need to be honest here buddy. I mean that is what your administrator says in the ethics part of Debunking right? Surely we can be honest.. and not lie.. right? You've mis quoted the facts, so you can apologize and say sorry or discredit yourself. Either way. I'm a man and if I'm proven wrong I'll say so.. and I expect the same here because your ethics rules say so.
 

Bunkerbuster

(AKA iondetox)
Mick.. please don't discredit yourself any further.. vapor trails last for hours.. really.. I don't have to look that up. Your going against physics. I've had allot of chemistry and I understand, you don't want to pick such a weak position with me.
 

MikeC

Closed Account
The 10-20 minutes I mention is a figure I have sometimes seen used tio differentiate between contrails and chemtrails - I would be interested in your view as to whether it is accurate or not, and if not what would be accurate? Or if time is not a factor then how do you tell a chemtrail from a contrail by eye?

I have seen studies of contrails that have mentioned them lasting for much longer - such as this one (a 5.6mb pdf download) where contrails are characterised at 30-45 minutes and at 1 and 3 hours.

during the shutdown of air traffic post 9/11 there was a famous study made of the temperature variations without contrail induced cirrus - but there was also a lesser known study of isolated contrails made by the few military aircraft allowed to fly in that time - their contrails lasted up to 10 hours , with most lasting 2-4 hours.
 

MikeC

Closed Account
I can show a chemtrail that last for hours.. so we need to be honest here buddy.

cool - can you please provide that then - because if you can positively identify it as a chemtrail that would be a first for me to see.

Thanks in advance
 

Bunkerbuster

(AKA iondetox)
Now you want me to do your research. I thought you was supposed to bring credible science to the table? Really? You need to re-read your administrators ethics rules that govern de-bunking.. and when you have something that is scientific then comment.. sorry to be such a hard ass, but this is what we've been dealing with you guys and it's gone on long enough.

Anyway.. i'm trying to get over that and all this .. . Can we have a real debate about what I'm so concerned about.. I don't care if you guys have fun debunking people.. if that is what you like then fine.. freedom and liberty allows you to do that, but can I express my true concern to you?
 

MikeC

Closed Account
So much for an honest debate I guess..

What's the problem??

So far you have been given references you asked for, and you've said you have some info and you've been asked some questions - so can you please provide the info & answer the questions??
 

Pogopoint99

Senior Member.
vapor trails last for hours... Your going against physics. I've had allot of chemistry and I understand, you don't want to pick such a weak position with me.

It's good to hear you have knowledge of chemistry. Please tell us why you think vapor trails can't last for hours.
 

Bunkerbuster

(AKA iondetox)
Because it violates the laws of physics and all known known knowledge. I would be interested in knowing why you think that normal vapor trail can last for hours? You seem to infer that I don't understand basic science? I understand science?????????
 

MikeC

Closed Account
Contrails are the same as cirrus cloud - ice crystals - cirrus clouds can hang around for hours for the same reason contrails can - if the atmosphere is supersaturated with respect to ice then it is not going to absorb more water in the form of ice, and so clouds of ice crystals - cirrus and contrails - do not dissipate quickly.

Eg see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_physics#Supersaturation or http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/7/EIS 12.pdf

How about answering the questions you have been asked in return??
 

Bunkerbuster

(AKA iondetox)
That's what I thought.. Contrails lasting for hours? I'm glad I did not take that side of the debate.. BUNKERBUSTED. !
 

Bunkerbuster

(AKA iondetox)
The links you provide did not address the formula for temp and humidity and how vapor is formed.. I thought you were supposed to produce science? These links have nothing to do with how long vapor trails linger. But really is that the point? There is something much more important that we should all be concerned with and that's the exponential rise in aluminum levels in all of us all over the world.. That is my main concern for you here.. past that.. I'm not here to disrupt your little party , but I can tell you that you should not ignore this.. debunk.. come on.. I'm an expert in aluminum.. come get U some.. !!!
 

Bunkerbuster

(AKA iondetox)
In Amerika we've tested little 2 year old girls with over 2000 ppm aluminum in their hair. Silica or clay or fucking dirt is not soluble in nature. Debunk that, so we can move on. What's in these chemtrails is available aluminum and that means it's a heavy metal, debunk that. It's coming from the coal burning electrical power plants.. haha.. they tested over 53000 ppm aluminum on Mount Shasta and it's so far from industry.. really 63000ppm on the top of a mountain..?

But for real this poses a health hazard to all of you and really that was my point in joining. I'm not trying to piss on your fun. If you want to troll and harrass that's your right when we have freedom. Who is chav and Earn.. I've blocked both I'm just curious? I look it like this.

I know the administrator here allowed me to be a member here knowing full well who I was, so I respect that. But I feel like I'm in his house, not a government house, so I have not said something I would not say in anyone's house. I tried to be respectful and offer my opinion without pissing off the owner of the "house." So I hope that all of "yall," would do the same on our channels and respect us.

I've been wrong before and sometimes it hurts, but I'm an empirical thinker, I can weight fact regardless of my opinion, and change my mind. I hope each one of you are the same type of thinker. Otherwise your brainwashed.

With that said. I wish each one of you a Merry Christmas and Happy Holiday.. and I'm probably out of here.. I would like to know who the administrator handle is.. because if I've blocked you I'll remove it.. so you can contact me if need be. I have learned a little from the debunkers.. In fact the topic would probably die from the same ole shit if you guy's were absent. But all that annoying shit.. really gets old..

Ok, bunkerbuster over and out...
 

MikeC

Closed Account
The links say contrails lasted for hours - how is that "nothing to do with how long vapor trails linger" ???

Where are the reports of little girls with 2000ppm aluminium in their hair? I provided links - where are yours? Where is the scientific analysis showing how much aluminium is in chemtrails?

Did you know the follow up tests on Mt Shasta found little (trace only) or 0 (zero) aluminium in the water??

Now I think it is about time you backed up your insistence on scientific evidence with some of your own - you are good at asking questions, but where are the answers to the questions you have been asked??

How do you tell a chemtrail from a contrail?

Where are the scientific tests showing high aluminium levels?

Which aircraft have nozzles fitted for spraying??

I would have thought that you'd have come to the scientific debate you say you want equipped with some answers, and not simply questions ...
 

MikeC

Closed Account
There is something much more important that we should all be concerned with and that's the exponential rise in aluminum levels in all of us all over the world..

I've never heard of this - where is this occurring? Who is measuring it??
 

Ross Marsden

Senior Member.
Mick.. please don't discredit yourself any further.. vapor trails last for hours.. really.. I don't have to look that up. Your going against physics. I've had allot of chemistry and I understand, you don't want to pick such a weak position with me.

Going against which "physics"?

You say you've done allot of chemistry. Have you come across the Clausius-Clapeyron relation? Do you think this might be important when you are considering the changes in phase of a substance?
 

Bunkerbuster

(AKA iondetox)
So I really have to look up and post the formula for vapor trails forming in the atmosphere for you all? I mean this should be the first thing you considered before forming your hypothesis? I thought your site was based n science.

But to get along with you guys, I'll do the work you should have done before forming all this false science. You do know that Hitler's movement included stuff like false science too? It can lead to dangerous consequences. Each and everyone of you and your children are being exposed to Aluminum, Barium and other toxins in the chemtrails, so I would hope that you would look into this a little deeper. Because it poses a threat to us all regardless of what our personal beliefs are.

I have one question can any of you look at the facts and admit you are wrong if presented with the facts?

Ok.. I've got a day job, but I'll compile some links and information and report back. Hope all you have a great day... Mondays I hate Mondays.. see ya
 

Bunkerbuster

(AKA iondetox)
Ok this is from Agricultural coalition her web site is http://agriculturedefensecoalition.org/


The best information she gives that I've found is in this clip. I know it's long but but when our children's future is at stake there is no amount of time wasted to find the truth, so watch it in it's entirety and then well have somewhat of a basis to discuss this further, because to be frank you guy are way behind on the true science. This is full of information that you cannot refute in my humble opinion 8) Your welcome in advance it was all my pleasure ! Have a great day.. even if it's a Monday... I must get ready to work.. (fail)

[video=youtube_share;LhQ0-xfdp_c]http://youtu.be/LhQ0-xfdp_c[/video]
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
BunkerBuster, the problem here is that you are basing your theory on the misconception that contrails always vanish after a few minutes.

That's simply not true. And in the video you linked, Peterson does not explain why contrails can't persist, she simply repeats the claim that they don't.

Contrails have been known to persist since the 1920s. The basic physics behind it were understood even then. If the air is ice-supersaturated, and it's -40 degrees, then ice cannot evaporate. It's simple physics.

Did you read the Persisting and Spreading Contrails link? There's plenty of descriptions there.

http://contrailscience.com/persisting-and-spreading-contrails/

for example:

A Field Guide to the Atmosphere“, by Schaefer and Day, 1981:​
Sometimes [contrails] are ephemeral and dissipate as quickly as they form; other times they persist and grow wide enough to cover a substantial portion of the sky with a sheet of cirrostratus (Page 137)​
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
Bunkerbuster,
Please tell me the single, most irrefutable evidence that "chemtrails stuff" exists. Imagine yourself with five minutes on national TV or in front of Congress. What would you say?

Bunkerbuster said:
The best information she gives that I've found is in this clip. I know it's long but but when our children's future is at stake there is no amount of time wasted to find the truth, so watch it in it's entirety and then well have somewhat of a basis to discuss this further, because to be frank you guy are way behind on the true science. This is full of information that you cannot refute in my humble opinion 8) Your welcome in advance it was all my pleasure ! Have a great day.. even if it's a Monday... I must get ready to work.. (fail)

Hi, BB, I had really hoped you would confine yourself to one issue at a time. I usually ask that question because most conspiracy theorists when faced with it have to do some hard thinking to come up with a singular fact that supports their case. That is interesting, isn't it? What we usually get is a long chain of claims which the believer has built up to support their case, but which have factual or logical flaws which, if examined individually, can be discussed and refuted quite soundly. I call that the "laundry list".

First of all, introductions, since you are wondering who some of us are, I feel likewise. I am assuming you are iondetox, a 30 year old man from Amarillo, correct me if I'm wrong. please. I am the first chemtrail debunker, yes, I began looking at this fifteen years ago. Here is my original website, somewhat dated now, from around the turn of the century, where you can see some of my writing, and a bio, yes, I was born, raised and educated in Texas.

Now, I will watch Rosalind's video which you say can't be refuted. I am familiar with Peterson, and have written about her before, so I don't have the same expectations you do. Please respond later with your own list of her top five claims in order of irrefutability starting with the most irrefutable and myself or others will show you where she went wrong.

For starters, I'll let you in on a secret piece of information which I'm sure Rosalind won't mention, the secret of chemtrails!

It's in the fuel.

Yes, the secret ingredient which causes chemtrails is in the fuel, and its an element which is part of a binary means by which the chemtrail is formed. If you know chemistry, you already know what it is, and feel free to tell us. If you don't know, and I am certain even without watching that Rosalind will not mention this, please return later and ask, I will be sure to tell you the secret.
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
Ok, I have listened to 1/2 hour of her video, and was taking notes. She has debunked her previous position that ordinary jet contrails cannot persist. Here was her previous position:

[video=youtube_share;Y97OK6qEIz0]http://youtu.be/Y97OK6qEIz0[/video]

Rosalind Peterson said:
There was a brand new phenomenon which was occurring in which jet contrails instead of dissipating relatively quickly, you saw them in a few seconds began to persist

But in the video offered up by BB, she now says:

Rosalind Peterson said:
(at 20:20) No one has told you that water vapor is one of the major greenhouse gases, it rates much higher than CO2, and they are not taking about that or the impacts of water vapor that's produced by aviation. One of the major impacts that the UK Parliament and other countries are talking about is the impact of aviation because during the combustion of a jet engine, besides jet fuel emissions, is water vapor. And one of the recent reports from Stanford University is taliknng about water vapor from aviation is responsible for 20-30% of the warming in some areas. Now, when you think about this, and when you realize that they know how to reduce the amount of water vapor that is coming from a combustion jet engine, we don't have to be living with this problem


Peterson continues:

Rosalind Peterson said:
(@ 27;10) What happens when we put water vapor up and the jets leave persistent contrails and their man-made clouds that persist for days and days is that solar panel power production drops.

I'm sorry to tell you this, BB, but in Rosalind Peterson's most recent video, she has debunked herself and totally switched from a claim that ordinary jet contrails cannot persist, to a recognition that jet engines produce water vapor and can persist for days and days!

This is starting to look pretty clear, but I'll leave it at that and await your response to this conundrum that your citation of Rosalind's video has presented to us.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
But at 0:42:00 She says "We used to see blue skies, no trails, no jet trails", and claims persistent contrails (or as she puts it "the program") happened first in the late 1980s, and they have been seeing them "more and more"

She's still basically saying that the persistent contrails are not normal contrails. Which contradicts known science, and history.

The growth in the number of persistent contrails she notes simply comes from the growth in jet traffic.

But, BunkerBuster, you claim to understand physics and chemistry. Can you explain WHY a contrail cannot persist for hours, and yet a cirrus cloud can? What's the physical difference?
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
It sounds like Rosalind is either confused, conflicted, or knows exactly what she is doing by telling people contradictory things. Maybe she knows her audience's pre-conceptions and expects them to read into it whatever they please. If pressed on the issue, she would likely fail in debate. That is why Michael J. Murphy, Carnicom, and the whole Mt. Shasta bunch never engage in a place where their claims might be called into question. BB, could you try and get Rosalind to come here and back up what she says in this video? That would be in her interest and her success would put us to shame, but she won't. This is nothing new, and I knew and predicted this over a decade ago.
 
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