How to talk to a climate change denier, and then what?

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deirdre

Senior Member.
I also like to go through this flow chart before starting any discussion with a skeptic on any topic:

debating-a-christian-flow-chart.jpg
: ) is that the flow chart you used on your wife when you tried to convince her turning your livingroom into a replica of the starship enterprise was a good idea?
 

Ron J

Active Member
In any case I'm not willing to just give up and I'm working on projects that "might" make a difference but in the end, its our illustrious not leaders who really hold our fates in there hands. Without an immediate halt to the use of fossil fuels, we've got zero chance.


There isn't going to be an immediate halt to the use of fossil fuels. Germany for one is building more coal fired power plants. And our President, who says climate change is real and dangerous, flies all over the place, spewing carbon emissions without a care in the world. I remember early on in his Presidency, when he said he liked to have the White House at 80 degrees during the winter. I also remember when Carter set the thermostat at 65 and wore sweaters during the oil embargo days. Obama's personal actions do not match his rhetoric. It is all hat and no cattle.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
... It is all hat and no cattle.

Synchronicity alert. I first heard that phrase watching an episode of Boston Legal yesterday.

There's a line in the movie 'John dies at the end' about how if you learn a new word or concept you'll hear it used during the next week.
 

Ron J

Active Member
"If global temperatures rise 1.5 degrees Celsius over the next century, the rate will be about 10 times faster than what's been seen before, said Christopher Field, one of the scientists on the study."


If the World Trade Center Towers fell at a rate of one second per floor, it would have taken over a minute for the Towers to fall.

"In the past century, average global temperature has increased by about 0.8°C (1.4°F), and average global sea level has increased by 17 to 21 centimeters (7 to 8 inches) (IPCC, 2013)."

"As a long time resident of Santa Barbara, I’d like to know where the sea level rise is occuring. Santa Barbara has a brackish/fresh water bird refuge located at or near sea level, in the 66 years I have lived here the bird refuge is no closer to being joined to the Pacific ocean than it was 66 years ago. A couple of hundred years ago – well recorded in historic times – Santa Barbara had an estuary at the lower end of Laguna St. (“lagoon” in Spanish). That area is now populated with businesses and residences and has not been a lagoon for more than 125 years and is certainly not now threatened by any impending rise in sea level."
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Where the sea level rise is occurring.

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/islands-threatened-by-climate-change-2012-10?op=1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change_in_Tuvalu
 
J

Joe

Guest
Guess you guys didnt hear about the global warming scientist stuck in the Ice in the Antarctic ? or Whitehouse Propaganda
 
J

Joe

Guest
Where the sea level rise is occurring.

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/islands-threatened-by-climate-change-2012-10?op=1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change_in_Tuvalu
Is It rising seas or Sinking islands ? Looks like lots of tectonic plates and lots of earthquakes in that area . How could thew sea rise in one area and not everywhere else ? I think their getting desperate .
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Here it is . . .
http://www.theecologist.org/blogs_a...entists_stuck_in_antarctic_summer_freeze.html

I'm not sure Joe would approve of using that link to support his point, as it says:
So an increase in ice does not necessarily mean things are getting colder. It's a tad more complex.
 
J

Joe

Guest
I'm not sure Joe would approve of using that link to support his point, as it says:
So an increase in ice does not necessarily mean things are getting colder. It's a tad more complex.
no this is more like it
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
I'm not sure Joe would approve of using that link to support his point, as it says:
So an increase in ice does not necessarily mean things are getting colder. It's a tad more complex.
I really wasn't supporting or debunking his position . . . I thought the article presented a well presented position . . . Me thinks most scientists in the area of climate believe man is exacerbating the rate of climate change . . . I personally believe there is climate change but don't know what percentage is attributable to humans alone . . .
 
J

Joe

Guest
Let's be serious here Joe.
Im sure Youve heard it mick ? Or maybe they were right and they were trying to cover it up ? Kind of embarrassing wouldnt you say ? Imagine all that carbon wasted trying to save them ? I was serious Mick .
 

Belfrey

Senior Member.
Im sure Youve heard it mick ? Or maybe they were right and they were trying to cover it up ? Kind of embarrassing wouldnt you say ? Imagine all that carbon wasted trying to save them ? I was serious Mick .
Frankly, it's only "embarrassing" if one were to look at it in a very simplistic way, when it's really a quite complex situation.
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
You didn't answer my question about the Solomon Islands ? Are they Sinking ? or is the sea level only rising there ?
Good question . . . most climatic/geophysical issues are rather complex . . . what caused the warming trend around the time of the grand expansion of the Roman Empire for example . . . not the industrial revolution but maybe deforestation, the earth's cyclical alignment change with the sun, volcanic and tectonic cycles ???
 
J

Joe

Guest
Frankly, it's only "embarrassing" if one were to look at it in a very simplistic way, when it's really a quite complex situation.
Complex and a hoax for deindustrialization . yes the climate is very complex that's why they are wrong because they themselves really only fake it as in the first two videos above , Which I was waiting for to be debunk such as the graph on Whitehouse .Gov.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
You didn't answer my question about the Solomon Islands ? Are they Sinking ? or is the sea level only rising there ?

Dunno.

Sinking visibly over a 50 year period may or may not be geologically normal for that area.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Plus there are these areas too, which I think are on different geologic bases.


Kiribati
Maldives
Seychelles
Torres Strait Islands
Tegua
Solomon Islands
Micronesia
Palau
Carteret Islands
Tuvalu
Bangladesh
(some of those are in the same area off australia, but others aren't)
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
no this is more like it
Has climate change theory ever predicted that no extreme cold weather can happen again as global warming increases at this stage?
(I'm not aware it's ever claimed that).
So the fact that weather still gets cold means nothing, and you've invented the position that it was claimed it can't so you can disprove it - the old 'strawman' manoeuvre.

And just on the obvious - if ice melts and creates a cold current of water that moves where it doesn't normally, wouldn't that create cold weather?
 
J

Joe

Guest
Dunno.

Sinking visibly over a 50 year period may or may not be geologically normal for that area.
I was curious because the guy in The Savage video said they were sinking , I would think that if 1 island has a 8 millimeter increase so would all the others around the Pacific Ocean ? Unless Im just not grasping the complexity of an Ocean over My Swimming pool ?
 
J

Joe

Guest
Has climate change theory ever predicted that no extreme cold weather can happen again as global warming increases at this stage?
(I'm not aware it's ever claimed that).
So the fact that weather still gets cold means nothing, and you've invented the position that it was claimed it can't so you can disprove it - the old 'strawman' manoeuvre.

And just on the obvious - if ice melts and creates a cold current of water that moves where it doesn't normally, wouldn't that create cold weather?
Im just saying I think their trying to pull the wool over our eyes . Its possible it could be getting warmer But what if we are heading into a ice age 100 years from now and we try to cool the planet ? I think if we spent more time and money on alternative power and less on Carbon tax fraud schemes .
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
Im just saying I think their trying to pull the wool over our eyes . Its possible it could be getting warmer But what if we are heading into a ice age 100 years from now and we try to cool the planet ? I think if we spent more time and money on alternative power and less on Carbon tax fraud schemes .
they can just move all the space junk in orbit that's reflecting the sun back now. and it'll warm back up.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Im just saying I think their trying to pull the wool over our eyes . Its possible it could be getting warmer But what if we are heading into a ice age 100 years from now and we try to cool the planet ? I think if we spent more time and money on alternative power and less on Carbon tax fraud schemes .

Should we not hedge our bets based on what seems most likely?

In real life you don't just throw up your hands and say "who knows what will happen tomorrow?" Possibly in 100 years the planet will defy expectation and get cold, but right now it really looks like a warming trend. It also looks like too much carbon is causing that. Maybe it isn't , but since it looks like it is, then it's pretty clear that addressing the carbon is at least likely to be a good thing.
 

SR1419

Senior Member.
Im just saying I think their trying to pull the wool over our eyes.

Do you base that opinion on anything more than distrust of "government"- Is it based on an actual understanding of the Earth's climate cycles and an honest review of current and historical data?
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
I think you're joking, but I wonder *if* there is a measurable effect. I mean it's a pretty massive cloud of stuff.
i was kinda joking but makes sense so I looked it up and they are researching such stuff. http://www.researchgate.net/publication/6710728_Feasibility_of_cooling_the_Earth_with_a_cloud_of_small_spacecraft_near_the_inner_Lagrange_point_(L1) was wondering why they couldn't just throw a bunch of tinfoil into orbit. apparently they maybe can. obviously I cant understand the math in the paper but the conclusion says :

spacejunk.JPG

edit. I wrote
Rick Mastracchio and asked him if he and the other astronauts/cosmonauts are throwing their christmas wrap paper outside. (theyre happy for any correspondence ; )
 
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Belfrey

Senior Member.
I was curious because the guy in The Savage video said they were sinking , I would think that if 1 island has a 8 millimeter increase so would all the others around the Pacific Ocean ? Unless Im just not grasping the complexity of an Ocean over My Swimming pool ?
Your last sentence is correct. Although it's not simple or straightforward to understand, changes in sea level do not affect the entire ocean surface of the Earth equally and simultaneously, and there are interactions between the ice, water, and land to take into account. Here's a good overview: Sea Level Change.

I can show you some places in over on the Gulf Coast of Florida where coastal forests have been dying back since the 1980s, because the sea level has been rising there. Not all of that is due to the global (eustatic) increase in ocean volume; the land has also been subsiding in these areas.
 
J

Joe

Guest
Should we not hedge our bets based on what seems most likely?

In real life you don't just throw up your hands and say "who knows what will happen tomorrow?" Possibly in 100 years the planet will defy expectation and get cold, but right now it really looks like a warming trend. It also looks like too much carbon is causing that. Maybe it isn't , but since it looks like it is, then it's pretty clear that addressing the carbon is at least likely to be a good thing.
Sure come up with a solution to carbon based energy . Quit wasting money on pushing new taxes and regulations and the fruadulant science . it doesn't matter what we do in western countries as compared to China and India and the rest of the world . I still think warming is better than cooling . Many people die as a result to cold weather as well . they lost all credibility . They pushed the theory of Global Warming in schools as propaganda .Carbon taxes are a scam .They tax and regulate energy producers that just pass those fees to the consumer hurting the little guy in the end . It is theft as the elite class live their life of luxury and use more carbon then most families do in a lifetime . Regardless of what Cass Susstein thinks we don't need to be nudged like a herd of cattle . James Hanson is a Fraud .
 
J

Joe

Guest
Do you base that opinion on anything more than distrust of "government"- Is it based on an actual understanding of the Earth's climate cycles and an honest review of current and historical data?
No Im tired of being lie to and manipulated . Are you saying the government has been honest with us in the past ? Its also the media as well . When its all about money its usually a hoax . CCX
 

Ron J

Active Member
Has climate change theory ever predicted that no extreme cold weather can happen again as global warming increases at this stage?
(I'm not aware it's ever claimed that).
So the fact that weather still gets cold means nothing, and you've invented the position that it was claimed it can't so you can disprove it - the old 'strawman' manoeuvre.

And just on the obvious - if ice melts and creates a cold current of water that moves where it doesn't normally, wouldn't that create cold weather?


Alarmists said that children would grow up not knowing what snow was. Every time there has been a heat event, alarmists say this is what climate change looks like. Now they say extreme cold is due to global warming, which causes more extreme weather. I remember extreme weather, when i was a kid in the 1960's- when no one was talking of global warming. How extreme was weather during the little Ice Age? Very, would be my guess. We now have 24 hour news and weather channels, to play up any storm. The Weather Channel is now naming winter storms. We are already up to letter I.

2005 was supposed to be the new normal hurricane season. Then a record long number of days without a major hurricane occurred, which is still being set. The alarmists never saw that one coming. Name one climate scientist that did.

The fact the weather gets cold, means nothing and the fact the weather gets hot means nothing.

I am not aware of any climate theory that says the climate cannot get colder.
 

Belfrey

Senior Member.
The fact the weather gets cold, means nothing and the fact the weather gets hot means nothing.
I think that this sentence here is the important thing to keep in mind. People on both "sides" of the issue tend to overstate the significance of individual weather events, and (as climate researchers do say) you can't claim any one such event to be the result of climate change. A hot summer doesn't prove global warming, and a cold winter (or an antarctic ship getting stuck in the ice) doesn't disprove it. Weather is not climate. Climate science is about trends over time, not individual data points.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Alarmists said ....
Well that is the problem. I think the main idea is that highs and lows increase which produce more turbulent energy exchanges, so extremes become more common.
The pointing to hot weather as a result of climate change is not really a good point as it then leads to deniers claiming cold weather must disprove that. It's not weather that's the proof of the change, it's the overall climate over time which obviously takes time to see, but weather events are part of that too.
I think the pendulum will gradually swing higher, ie, the highs will get higher and the lows will gradually move up too, but there's still going to be cold weather.
 

qed

Senior Member
I think the pendulum will gradually swing higher, ie, the highs will get higher and the lows will gradually move up too, but there's still going to be cold weather.
Do you think our effects will be enough to hold off the next ice age?
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Do you think our effects will be enough to hold off the next ice age?
I don't know enough about the dynamics of ice ages to have an informed opinion, but I suppose it might. If runaway methane release happens.
 

Ron J

Active Member
Should we not hedge our bets based on what seems most likely?

In real life you don't just throw up your hands and say "who knows what will happen tomorrow?" Possibly in 100 years the planet will defy expectation and get cold, but right now it really looks like a warming trend. It also looks like too much carbon is causing that. Maybe it isn't , but since it looks like it is, then it's pretty clear that addressing the carbon is at least likely to be a good thing.


At this point, i don't know what is more likely. Much as WUWT has been dismisssed, due to certain article contributors, there are always new articles being posted, as to different ideas about the interaction of various elements in our biosphere.

All of the climate science going forward, says may, might, could. As author Michael Crighton pointed out, there was no virtual consensus as to what the temperature will be in 2100. Dr. Jones said "where's the warming?" That means he expected something that did not happen according to his expectation.

Climate has been politicized. And in that fact, it does not matter whether the climate is growing colder or warmer. "The government must do something about it." Climate becomes social activism.

Climate social activists have turned every heat wave into a dire global future. "We are going to have Katrina hurricanes every summer and the winters will be warm and virtually snowless." They over played their hand. A Katrina drought and snow in Dallas has thrown sand in their face.

So now the Arctic Vortex is said to be caused by Global Warming and causes extreme cold in the U.S. Ah, but there was no talk of any Arctic Vortex, when a warm December in NYC several years ago, was played up as becoming the new normal. There was no "global warming causes any extreme weather", until cold and snow records were inconveniently being broken.

Backtracking, the climate social activists lose credibility, along with climate scientists.
 
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