How to talk to a climate change denier, and then what?

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Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
While this video is focused around the topic of climate change, it contains some useful tips for talking directly to people about similar issues, and particularly focuses on how you might talk to people like your relatives.



One difference that stood out to me was the idea of "offering rewards" by pointing out the benefits of changing behavior to be more carbon neutral. There's not really a similar thing for chemtrails. Perhaps the chemtrail debunking focuses a little to much on the negative ("you are wrong") and needs to offer up a little in exchange.

That's somewhat related to "Providing an Alternative Explanation" from the Debunking Handbook.
http://www.skepticalscience.com/Deb...Filling-gap-with-alternative-explanation.html

But it's even a little more than that, it's "providing something else to do with your time". Often the conspiracy theorist ends up with a significant chunk of their life consumed by their theory. If you take that away, then, well, that's a chunk of their life you are taking away. Is there something that could be given back to file the hole? Not simply an alternative explanation, because "they are just contrails" is simply vastly smaller than "there's a covert geoengineering/NWO/poisoning/mind control plot". It does not fill the hole.

I've noticed that some of the more active debunkers are those that formerly believed in bunk. They have redirected some of that energy they spent in spreading bunk to trying to clean up that same bunk. But that's something that happen after they stop believing, and it's not really a practical alternative you can put out there, as they don't really respect debunkers, and think you are lying to them, or stupid.

That suggests two possibilities. Firstly to try to gain respect before you convince them, and not after, and so the honest debunking route might seem more attractive. Secondly, and this I find interesting, you would try to show them some undeniably real issues that they can do something about, but that their focus on bunk is both not allowing them time, but is also delegitimizing them.

Think about the 9/11 truth activists. Some of them are very active in confronting hapless politicians about 9/11. It's a big waste of time. But what if they were to focus on the very real issues in American politics? The corrupt political process. The Washington lobby revolving-door system. The unconscionably huge prison population. Exploitation and trafficking of illegal immigrants. The too-big-to-jail financial system. The failed and damaging war on drugs. The influence of the military industrial complex on foreign policy. What if instead of researching and promoting bunk, they could research and promote awareness of these genuine issues? What if instead of haranguing David Keith and people at Weather Modification Inc, they could harangue the head of the Corrections Corporation of America, or harangue Sheldon Adelson about his Super-PACs. Instead of raising awareness about fake issues, raise awareness about real issues.
 

Minnesota CHawk

New Member
I haven't heard the term climate change dissenter before, but I think that will be a good one to use when directly engaging with deniers as to not be disrespectful. As far as conspiracy theorists in general, have you found any of them to react negatively to being called a CT?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I haven't heard the term climate change dissenter before, but I think that will be a good one to use when directly engaging with deniers as to not be disrespectful. As far as conspiracy theorists in general, have you found any of them to react negatively to being called a CT?
Yes, quite a few consider it a derogatory term.

It's hard to find a better term from someone who believes in these type of things. "Conspiracy enthusiast" maybe? "Awakers"? So I try to just use the term when talking about things in a more abstract sense.
 

Critical Thinker

Senior Member
Yes, quite a few consider it a derogatory term.

It's hard to find a better term from someone who believes in these type of things. "Conspiracy enthusiast" maybe? "Awakers"? So I try to just use the term when talking about things in a more abstract sense.

Since they refer to non-believers as sheep, whadabout referring to them as wolves?
 

F4Jock

Active Member
Think about the 9/11 truth activists. Some of them are very active in confronting hapless politicians about 9/11. It's a big waste of time. But what if they were to focus on the very real issues in American politics? The corrupt political process. The Washington lobby revolving-door system. The unconscionably huge prison population. Exploitation and trafficking of illegal immigrants. The too-big-to-jail financial system. The failed and damaging war on drugs. The influence of the military industrial complex on foreign policy. What if instead of researching and promoting bunk, they could research and promote awareness of these genuine issues? What if instead of haranguing David Keith and people at Weather Modification Inc, they could harangue the head of the Corrections Corporation of America, or harangue Sheldon Adelson about his Super-PACs. Instead of raising awareness about fake issues, raise awareness about real issues.
I've suggested this before here. The result was an out-of-hand dismissal and being called "naive" at best. Face it, some people will never be able to let go of their particular obsessions. I find this characteristic of 9/11 "Truthers." They just can't let go no matter what is pointed out to them. Essentially they have created a huge time sink on a useless subject. Not only does this time sink occupy them, but it occupies those who attempt to change their opinions: Twice the intellectual waste!

You can see this on this forum in the WTC 7 thread. Maybe we should ask them what, exactly, they plan to do if someone says. "Yeah, we demoed the building. So what?"

In my opinion, if the proponents of any particular CT demonstrate that they are incapable of accepting logic and are presenting nothing more than circular arguments they deserve, for many reasons, to be ignored.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
In my opinion, if the proponents of any particular CT demonstrate that they are incapable of accepting logic and are presenting nothing more than circular arguments they deserve, for many reasons, to be ignored.
Progress is often too slow to see. But it's also often there over time, just lost in the noise.

"Classified" eventually shifted a little. I think Oxy has changed a bit. Even the more generally scornful folk like "lee h oswald", and Grieves show some shifts.

And we all learn and change over time.
 

Joe

Senior Member
I still say its a Hoax to collect and implement Carbon Taxes . Or as many say the climate always changes . I do however have a smaller carbon footprint then most and agree we need a new source of energy . Im green in the fashion that Im cheap . I hate the way we just toss everything out for the new fangled product . It because the radical leftist have hijacked the movement is why there is so much pushback . CCX comes to mind . To call someone a CT or a denier over this only hurts the cause . No matter how much we clean up our act Im afraid no matter what we do wont matter with China India and all the other countries coming on line . It wont matter how much we clean up our act we all live in the same fishbowl .
 

Joe

Senior Member
Global warming activists and Hollywood Hypocrite Harrison Ford has a bigger Carbon footprint then my whole family .
 

davefb

New Member
I still say its a Hoax to collect and implement Carbon Taxes . Or as many say the climate always changes . I do however have a smaller carbon footprint then most and agree we need a new source of energy . Im green in the fashion that Im cheap . I hate the way we just toss everything out for the new fangled product . It because the radical leftist have hijacked the movement is why there is so much pushback . CCX comes to mind . To call someone a CT or a denier over this only hurts the cause . No matter how much we clean up our act Im afraid no matter what we do wont matter with China India and all the other countries coming on line . It wont matter how much we clean up our act we all live in the same fishbowl .
I think one problem is that in order to explain to the masses via mass media, part of the 'message' gets simplified..

say to "its co2 stoopid"... so person hears this.. "oh right, it's all about co2 and its gunna get warmer"

well... it really isn't that simple.. but that isn't because theres anything wrong with 'climate change per ce', its because of the simplification of the message for the mass media..

and THEN, theres bizarre ideas like carbon taxes, OR the even more insane ( but it started like a good idea) mandated X% of bio-fuels..

it isn't all bad though, in my lifetime we've addressed issues like lead in fuels ,acid rain and cfc's.. so stuff *can* get done..
 

solrey

Senior Member
Wow, the design of a challenging component was approved. Color me unimpressed with that mis-leading headline.

They've barely begun construction of the various buildings at the ITER site, btw.
 

solrey

Senior Member
I think that labeling skeptics as "deniers" is pretty much the same as labeling debunkers as "shills". Kinda pisses me off actually considering this lifelong environmentalist is also skeptical about the claim of human induced catastrophic climate change and certain aspects of climate science while being concerned about the consequences of knee jerk "solutions".
 

Joe

Senior Member
I think that labeling skeptics as "deniers" is pretty much the same as labeling debunkers as "shills". Kinda pisses me off actually considering this lifelong environmentalist is also skeptical about the claim of human induced catastrophic climate change and certain aspects of climate science while being concerned about the consequences of knee jerk "solutions".
you are right and it makes you defensive doesnt it ? I think skeptics and truth seekers would work just fine :)
 

Met Watch

Moderator
Second Coldest Start To Spring In US History
The only year when the spring started colder was 1975.
I'd wait until the entire year is over to start jumping to conclusions - the data used to show rising global temperatures is on a yearly scale. There can be plenty of reasons to explain a colder spring besides that "the earth is actually cooling" (not saying that you're suggesting that, Joe - pointing out that some people will).
 
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Joe

Senior Member
I'd wait until the entire year is over to start jumping to conclusions - the data used to show rising global temperatures is on a yearly scale. There can be plenty of reasons to explain a colder spring besides that "the earth is actually cooling" (not saying that you're suggesting that, Joe - pointing out that some people will).
Im just saying you wonder why so many Skeptics ?
 

Met Watch

Moderator
Im just saying you wonder why so many Skeptics ?
Because so many skeptics don't realize the fact that you can't point at a small period during a year to try and make a point about warming when the temperatures are yearly averages. You can have a cold spring, but have an above average summer and above average fall and following winter, your average yearly temperature is still going to be fairly high and that spring becomes irrelevant.
 

Joe

Senior Member
Because so many skeptics don't realize the fact that you can't point at a small period during a year to try and make a point about warming when the temperatures are yearly averages. You can have a cold spring, but have an above average summer and above average fall and following winter, your average yearly temperature is still going to be fairly high and that spring becomes irrelevant.
Maybe you cant point at a larger period either ?
 

Met Watch

Moderator
Wait, Joe - where did they fetch the 2013 data from? I'm curious to see how they got a March/April average when April isn't even over yet.
 

Joe

Senior Member
Wait, Joe - where did they fetch the 2013 data from? I'm curious to see how they got a March/April average when April isn't even over yet.
I think it said coldest start to spring not coldest spring ? so it might be all of April ?
 

dirtyjon

New Member
I find this guy's approach, specifically the end, an example of a way to "refocus" a CT's ideas (granted, the things he says at the end have their own alternative stories...)
 

scombrid

Senior Member
Seems you're seeking out regions that are experiencing episodic cold.

Have you bothered to look for regions that are experiencing epicodic hot and then comparing the frequency of above average conditions to below average or comparing the land area experiencing above average to below?

With weather being as variable as it is, pointing at a data point that is out in the tail of the distribution of observations tells us nothing about the average.

The average monthly temperature in January in Orlando was 6F above average. That is a huge departure. I swam at New Smyrna in January without a wetsuit. The water was 75F. It is usually around 58F in January. That tells me nothing about the annual average though and I don't pretend that it does.


Do you really think that warming troposphere by a global average of a couple of degrees would or should be expected to preclude regional and temporal variation such that episodic cold periods would no longer occur?

BTW: Just went from late Sunday afternoon to late Thursday afternoon without one contrail in Volusia county. Funny the contrails come back and it is going to be hot today.
 

Joe

Senior Member
Seems you're seeking out regions that are experiencing episodic cold.

Have you bothered to look for regions that are experiencing epicodic hot and then comparing the frequency of above average conditions to below average or comparing the land area experiencing above average to below?

With weather being as variable as it is, pointing at a data point that is out in the tail of the distribution of observations tells us nothing about the average.

The average monthly temperature in January in Orlando was 6F above average. That is a huge departure. I swam at New Smyrna in January without a wetsuit. The water was 75F. It is usually around 58F in January. That tells me nothing about the annual average though and I don't pretend that it does.


Do you really think that warming troposphere by a global average of a couple of degrees would or should be expected to preclude regional and temporal variation such that episodic cold periods would no longer occur?

BTW: Just went from late Sunday afternoon to late Thursday afternoon without one contrail in Volusia county. Funny the contrails come back and it is going to be hot today.
Its been quite dry . So now its gets hot and contrails appear again ? yea its always been like that . I havent seen to many old photos of Florida with persistent contrails ? have any ? i have 24 years worth many at the beach and I cant find 1` ?
 

scombrid

Senior Member
Its been quite dry .
Bingo. Entire air column from the tropopause to the surface. Well we did have some shallow humitidy and sprinkles with a boundary on Tues but no trails and no storms because the atmosphere from 500mb on up stayed dry.

So now its gets hot and contrails appear again ?
When there is another boundary approaching from the west, yeah.


yea its always been like that
When high pressure is sliding offshore and the return flow on the backside is warming us up and there is a trough to our west, yeah it has always been like that. Old timers used the cirrus clouds that are typically associated with contrails and that existed before jets to tell when weather was possibly approaching. The top-down moistening of the atmosphere in such situtation favors cirrus cloud formation and contrail formation and persistence.


I havent seen to many old photos of Florida with persistent contrails ?
How old do you want to go? Most believers have given up the "persistent contrails didn't exist prior to X-date" as plenty of old photos show that trails appears about as soon as did jets. Before jets really since even piston driven planes can reach contrail altitude in winter at higher latitude as over Europe.
 

scombrid

Senior Member
Not a cloud in the sky in Volusia at the moment. I can see trails to my west and northwest being advected this way by upper level winds. Extensive cirrus west of those being blown off of storms west of those.

Florida_vis.gif
 

Joe

Senior Member
Not a cloud in the sky in Volusia at the moment. I can see trails to my west and northwest being advected this way by upper level winds. Extensive cirrus west of those being blown off of storms west of those.

View attachment 2668
I see clouds but no trails yet . Most of my clouds are to the west 12:00 so if there are trails they are obscured by the clouds .
 

Joe

Senior Member
Bingo. Entire air column from the tropopause to the surface. Well we did have some shallow humitidy and sprinkles with a boundary on Tues but no trails and no storms because the atmosphere from 500mb on up stayed dry.



When there is another boundary approaching from the west, yeah.




When high pressure is sliding offshore and the return flow on the backside is warming us up and there is a trough to our west, yeah it has always been like that. Old timers used the cirrus clouds that are typically associated with contrails and that existed before jets to tell when weather was possibly approaching. The top-down moistening of the atmosphere in such situtation favors cirrus cloud formation and contrail formation and persistence.




How old do you want to go? Most believers have given up the "persistent contrails didn't exist prior to X-date" as plenty of old photos show that trails appears about as soon as did jets. Before jets really since even piston driven planes can reach contrail altitude in winter at higher latitude as over Europe.
Iv seen all those photos their is really not that many . Im talking about Florida photos that I have Thousands of them yet not 1 trail ? until recently . yet I see trails all the time now ?
 

scombrid

Senior Member
Iv seen all those photos their is really not that many . Im talking about Florida photos that I have Thousands of them yet not 1 trail ? until recently . yet I see trails all the time now ?
As an astute watcher of the sky you should then be able to pinpoint the date at which trails appear since my memory must be faulty.

Do you really have thousands of photos that contain a significant portion of sky? Meteorology is a hobby of mine and I do not have that many sky photos.
 

Joe

Senior Member
As an astute watcher of the sky you should then be able to pinpoint the date at which trails appear since my memory must be faulty.

Do you really have thousands of photos that contain a significant portion of sky? Meteorology is a hobby of mine and I do not have that many sky photos.
I spend a lot of time at the Beach many of my photos have a lot of sky . Surfing is one of my hobbies
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member
It’s official: This the coldest spring in Saskatchewan in 113 years http://metronews.ca/voices/urban-co...-coldest-spring-in-saskatchewan-in-113-years/ Global Warming LOL :)
I thought the position of climate change denial was to deny only that mankind made any contribution to it and therefore should take action to mitigate its output, not that the climate wasn't changing and getting warmer overall.
I thought that was a general non-controversial consensus.
And a global warming doesn't mean some areas can't get colder as patterns shift. They're unlikely to stay cold in the long-term I think though.
So now it's that nothing is changing whatsoever?
 

scombrid

Senior Member
I spend a lot of time at the Beach many of my photos have a lot of sky . Surfing is one of my hobbies
I've spent nearly every day outside since I started working on a tree farm at age 14. Contrails and cirrus clouds that chemtrail believers insist aren't natural have been a feature of the sky the entire time. I'd love to know specifically when things changed and how I must have missed it.
 

scombrid

Senior Member
Seems you're seeking out regions that are experiencing episodic cold.

Have you bothered to look for regions that are experiencing epicodic hot and then comparing the frequency of above average conditions to below average or comparing the land area experiencing above average to below?

With weather being as variable as it is, pointing at a data point that is out in the tail of the distribution of observations tells us nothing about the average.

The average monthly temperature in January in Orlando was 6F above average. That is a huge departure. I swam at New Smyrna in January without a wetsuit. The water was 75F. It is usually around 58F in January. That tells me nothing about the annual average though and I don't pretend that it does.


Do you really think that warming troposphere by a global average of a couple of degrees would or should be expected to preclude regional and temporal variation such that episodic cold periods would no longer occur?
 

Joe

Senior Member
I've spent nearly every day outside since I started working on a tree farm at age 14. Contrails and cirrus clouds that chemtrail believers insist aren't natural have been a feature of the sky the entire time. I'd love to know specifically when things changed and how I must have missed it.
Got Florida photos ? so are you saying theyve always been there and there has always been as many ? My other hobby is Model Aircraft
 

scombrid

Senior Member
Got Florida photos ?
NSB, Cape Canaveral... The photos on 2ndlight are usually somewhere between Cocoa Beach and Sebastian.

so are you saying theyve always been there
As long as I've been alive.

and there has always been as many ?
No. I don't understand why you would think anybody here would assert such.

Air miles by commercial flights have more than doubled in the last 20 years. A lot of that is bigger jets flying higher and longer.

The amount of trails has gone up pretty close to in proportion to the number of flights. More flights, more trails. There's either a thread here about it or an article on contrail science about contrail frequency vs. increases in jet traffic. I might look for them. I might not. I've done my interval workout on the river and now I'm headed to the beach.
 
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