Dept of Agriculture Orders Submachine Guns with 30 Round Magazine

[BombDr]

Id disgree 100% . Seems they've been equipping themselves pretty well . https://www.aclu.org/militarization

Slight hyperbole from the ACLU - and I am an ACLU member - as no Police department in the US has Tanks...

 

[Joe]

Slight hyperbole from the ACLU - and I am an ACLU member - as no Police department in the US has Tanks...

They have MRAPs . I dislike almost everything the ACLU is but sometimes they get it right .

 

[BombDr]

They have MRAPs . I dislike almost everything the ACLU is but sometimes they get it right .

Tanks, I guess is more emotive...

 

[Landru]

They have MRAPs . I dislike almost everything the ACLU is but sometimes they get it right .

Let's keep the discussion to what the USDA is doing. Different discussions different threads.

 

[Joe]

Why? The Executive Branch has one of the oldest police force in the Nation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Park_Police

The United States Park Police (USPP) is one of the oldest uniformed federal law enforcement agencies in the United States. It functions as a full-service law enforcement agency with responsibilities and jurisdiction in those National Park Service areas primarily located in the Washington, D.C., San Francisco, and New York City areas and certain other government lands. The United States Park Police is one of the few full-service police departments in the federal government that possess both state and federal authority. In addition to performing the normal crime prevention, investigation, and apprehension functions of an urban police force, the Park Police are responsible for policing many of the famous monuments in the United States. The USPP shares law enforcement jurisdiction in all lands administered by the National Park Service with a force of National Park Service Rangers tasked with the same law enforcement powers and responsibilities. The agency also provides protection for the President, Secretary of the Interior, and visiting dignitaries. The Park Police is a unit of the National Park Service, which is a bureau of the Department of the Interior.

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http://www.nps.gov/uspp/


The USDA does a lot of law enforcement work- who are you to say they do not need body armor or machine guns?(again- we dont know how many they are seeking which would add some clarity and perspective)

http://www.usda.gov/oig/invest.htm

Pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978 and Section 1337 of the Agriculture and Food Act of 1981 (P.L. 97-98), OIG Investigations is the law enforcement arm of the Department, with Department-wide investigative jurisdiction. OIG Special Agents conduct investigations of significant criminal activities involving USDA programs, operations, and personnel, and are authorized to make arrests, execute warrants, and carry firearms. The types of investigations conducted by OIG Special Agents involve criminal activities such as frauds in subsidy, price support, benefits, and insurance programs; significant thefts of Government property or funds; bribery; extortion; smuggling; and assaults on employees. Investigations involving criminal activity that affects the health and safety of the public, such as meat packers who knowingly sell hazardous food products and individuals who tamper with food regulated by USDA, are also high-profile investigative priorities. In addition, OIG Special Agents are poised to provide emergency law enforcement response to USDA declared emergencies and suspected incidents of terrorism affecting USDA regulated industries, as well as USDA programs, operations, personnel, and installations, in coordination with Federal, State, and local law enforcement agencies, as appropriate.

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Any examples of The USDA ever needing machine guns and Body armor ? Just another Bloated Federal agency with to much power .

 

[Soulfly]

I have a problem with the executive branch having its own police force .

They have one, it's called the Secret Service. They do a lot more than just protect the President.
http://www.secretservice.gov/criminal.shtml

 

[M Bornong]

Any examples of The USDA ever needing machine guns and Body armor ? Just another Bloated Federal agency with to much power .

Joe, those Mexican Cartels can be very well armed. So far, these busts have resulted in little violence. I'd like it to stay that way, and to see that the forest service is adequately protected. This is just one of many busts going on on USDA controlled land.
http://www.denverpost.com/ci_21337872/pot-bust-national-forest-near-pueblo-one-states

 

[SR1419]

Any examples of The USDA ever needing machine guns and Body armor ? Just another Bloated Federal agency with to much power .

examples? Plenty.

The US Forest Service is part of the USDA. Both National Forest and BLM lands across the West are riddled with marijuana growing operations - some sponsored by Mexican drug cartels. It falls to the both these agencies to police the land under their jurisdiction. When raiding a grow operation body armor and machine guns might be useful.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/dec/26/local/la-me-mexican-marijuana-20121226

A few minutes after 4 a.m., agents in camouflage cluster in a dusty field in Kern County. "Movement needs to be slow, deliberate and quiet," the team leader whispers. "Lock and load now."
They check their ammunition and assault rifles, not exactly sure whom they might meet in the dark: heavily armed Mexican drug traffickers, or just poorly paid fieldworkers camping miserably in the brush.

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more:

Bankrolled by sophisticated drug cartels, suppliers are sidestepping border patrols to grow in relative obscurity on Forest Service, Bureau of Land Management and National Park Service lands across the West and even into the Southeast....

Federal agencies are responding by beefing up law enforcement patrols and investing in technologies like helicopter surveillance and unmanned aerial drones to track down marijuana growers operating in California's lush woodlands.

Forest Service law enforcement staff was doubled from 14 to 28 agents in California between 2007 and 2008, said spokesman John Heil, resulting in the eradication of 3.1 million marijuana plants in the last fiscal year.

"It's definitely a trend," said Keith McGrath, a law enforcement officer in BLM's Idaho office who was part of last month's raid in a far-flung desert canyon.

"We're seeing a shift to more organized grows and larger grows," McGrath said. "They're being set up and run through the cartels, and it's becoming a big chunk of our work load."

Congress is responding too, with a recent $3 million supplemental appropriation secured by Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) that allowed the Park Service to add 25 new law enforcement officers to its Pacific Region parks, said Ron Sundergill, regional director for the Washington, D.C.-based National Parks Conservation Association.

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There is clearly a very legitimate need for weapons heavier than a side arm.

The Hype machine freaks out because the USDA and machine guns seem incongruent...but in the context and reality of Law Enforcement within the admittedly huge USDA its not that alarming.

Context is important too. Are they looking for a 5 machine guns or 5000.

I am all for trimming/removing bloated bureaucracy but I am not going to begrudge some LE guys in the field some armor and weapons for the sake of political ideology.

 

[Pete Tar]

These sorts of reports though are disturbing. While the enforcement of regulations may be justified the intimidation and terrorising are not.

but these "perps" are not pot-growers or drug-smugglers, they are family farmers and members of organic produce buying clubs.
"I was at the top of the stairs and I saw a man with a gun pointed up at me. All I could see was a black hat and a black jacket. I stood there thinking this was a serial killer."

"They seized $64,000 worth of food and equipment. They terrorized the children. They took the farmer away in handcuffs."

"They showed up at 5:30 in the morning in the middle of a blizzard and they had 42 armed federal agents and USDA officials and they cleared out our entire barn."

In Ohio, Jackie Stauer and her children were held at gunpoint for six hours in while a SWAT team of 11 armed police ransacked their home, seizing computers and records. The charge: failure to obtain a "food establishment" permit, even though the organic food at issue was only intended for family consumption.

In Venice, Rawesome Foods, a private food-buyers club with an unblemished 12-year history, was targeted by SWAT team raid that included agents from the FDA, FBI, California Department of Food and Agriculture, the local health department and a half-dozen sheriffs. Rawsome's workers were lined up against a fence and frisked. Surveillance videos show officers brandishing their weapons at the unarmed employees. Rawesome, which sells raw milk, has been hit with repeated raids. Most recently on August 2, 2011, when the owner, James Stewart, was charged with "conspiracy to commit a crime" and held on $123,000 bail. He was then denied bail.
http://www.berkeleydailyplanet.com/...-Against-Small-Farmers--Reviewed-by-Gar-Smith

Federal agents watched the home closely for a year, gathering evidence. Then, in a pre-dawn raid, armed members from three agencies swooped in.

No, this is not a retelling of the lightning U.S. commando attack in Abbottabad, Pakistan, that killed terrorist leader Osama bin Laden. Rather, the target of the raid late last month by U.S. marshals, a state police trooper and inspectors from the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) was Amish farmer Dan Allgyer of Kinzers, Pa. His so-called “crime” involved nothing more than providing unpasteurized, or raw, dairy milk to eager consumers here in the Washington area.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/may/13/mopping-up-the-raw-milk-mob/

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Surely a discretely armed presence is all that is necessary in these cases.

 

[Joe]

Joe, those Mexican Cartels can be very well armed. So far, these busts have resulted in little violence. I'd like it to stay that way, and to see that the forest service is adequately protected. This is just one of many busts going on on USDA controlled land.
http://www.denverpost.com/ci_21337872/pot-bust-national-forest-near-pueblo-one-states

Sure they are well armed thats to the ATF . HMM if they paid more attention to our porous border they wouldnt have Drug Cartels here in the states . But I do appreciate the links provided . Thanks

 

[Joe]

Fish and wildlife part of the USDA raids Gibson Guitar , Politically motivated .

 

[M Bornong]

Fish and wildlife part of the USDA raids Gibson Guitar , Politically motivated .

That raid was based on illegal use of an endangered species of wood, not much different than people who support the importation of elephant tusks. I'm a percussionist, I own both a xylophone and a marimba bought 40 and 30 years ago, made of old growth Honduras Rosewood, an extreme rarity and a protected species, the wood for both my instruments were cut many years before I bought them and I can trace the provenance of the instruments back to a time before rarity was a concern. Give it a little time and protection by law, and our children can have the quality of instruments that were once produced, continue the slaughter and it will all be lost. If that happens maybe my great-grandchildren will own the equivalent of a Stradivarius. I'd prefer they just owned quality instruments that were still being played.
The raid on Gibson wasn't just politically motivated.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/therecord/...n-guitar-was-raided-by-the-justice-department

 

[WeedWhacker]

We already have a civilian force . They are called armed Americans .

I think some responders missed this....it sent a chill down my spine.

I do not care to re-create the "old west" style of "justice". Because, this is what ultimately arises from this antiquated thinking. Like, "Tea Party" thinking. Basically anarchy.

 

[NoParty]

That raid was based on illegal use of an endangered species of wood, not much different than people who support the importation of elephant tusks. I'm a percussionist, I own both a xylophone and a marimba bought 40 and 30 years ago, made of old growth Honduras Rosewood, an extreme rarity and a protected species, the wood for both my instruments were cut many years before I bought them and I can trace the provenance of the instruments back to a time before rarity was a concern. Give it a little time and protection by law, and our children can have the quality of instruments that were once produced, continue the slaughter and it will all be lost. If that happens maybe my great-grandchildren will own the equivalent of a Stradivarius. I'd prefer they just owned quality instruments that were still being played.
The raid on Gibson wasn't just politically motivated.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/therecord/...n-guitar-was-raided-by-the-justice-department

Ah, just put some welding goggles on him and tell him it's a Stradivarius.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2014/05/16/313099219/is-a-stradivarius-just-a-violin

 

[Joe]

I think some responders missed this....it sent a chill down my spine.

I do not care to re-create the "old west" style of "justice". Because, this is what ultimately arises from this antiquated thinking. Like, "Tea Party" thinking. Basically anarchy.

Better to have the ATF and Waco incidents ? or The USDA armed to the teeth ? My government that spies on its own people , kills Americans with Drones .Backs Al; Qaeda in the Middle East scares the Crap out of me.

 

[Joe]

That raid was based on illegal use of an endangered species of wood, not much different than people who support the importation of elephant tusks. I'm a percussionist, I own both a xylophone and a marimba bought 40 and 30 years ago, made of old growth Honduras Rosewood, an extreme rarity and a protected species, the wood for both my instruments were cut many years before I bought them and I can trace the provenance of the instruments back to a time before rarity was a concern. Give it a little time and protection by law, and our children can have the quality of instruments that were once produced, continue the slaughter and it will all be lost. If that happens maybe my great-grandchildren will own the equivalent of a Stradivarius. I'd prefer they just owned quality instruments that were still being played.
The raid on Gibson wasn't just politically motivated.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/therecord/...n-guitar-was-raided-by-the-justice-department

You sir are wrong . The Fish and wildlife part of the USDA were wrong they returned all the wood the illegally seized as stated in the video . My brothjer in Law owns a Gibson Government Guitar made with the returned wood . http://www2.gibson.com/Products/Ele...Gibson-USA/Government-Series-II-Les-Paul.aspx Environmental wackos gone crazy

 

[Jason]

http://www.usacarry.com/forums/gene...-usda-oig-solicitation-40s-w-smgs-w-30-round-

Here is the solicitation. NOTE THAT NO SOLICITATION DOCUMENTS EXIST FOR THIS SOLICITATION! The USDA is essentially initiating an untraceable acquisition process, with the names of firearms manufacturers being kept out of the public eye.

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I came across this and wanted to know if its true and or if its normal procedure for a gov agency to order fire arms in this manner.

You sir are wrong . The Fish and wildlife part of the USDA were wrong they returned all the wood the illegally seized as stated in the video . My brothjer in Law owns a Gibson Government Guitar made with the returned wood . http://www2.gibson.com/Products/Ele...Gibson-USA/Government-Series-II-Les-Paul.aspx Environmental wackos gone crazy

Didn't Gibson pay a sh*t load in fines for using that wood?

 

[WeedWhacker]

Better to have the ATF and Waco incidents ? or The USDA armed to the teeth ? My government that spies on its own people , kills Americans with Drones .Backs Al; Qaeda in the Middle East scares the Crap out of me.

Utter hyperbole. But, it's the same fear tactics used to ramp up the sorts like David Koresh who then lead to the altercation in Waco!! (as one example).

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.....a self-licking ice cream cone.

AND, your reference to a drone used to kill an American?? ONE instance, dude. And, this was a BAD bad guy, fomenting terrorism against other Americans and whipping up others in his "cause".

Really, exaggeration seems to be the "name of the game" with conspiracists.

 

[Jason]

AND, your reference to a drone used to kill an American?? ONE instance, dude. And, this was a BAD bad guy, fomenting terrorism against other Americans and whipping up others in his "cause".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki

Anwar al-Awlaki (also spelled al-Aulaqi, al-Awlaqi;Arabic: أنور العولقي‎ Anwar al-‘Awlaqī; April 21, 1971 – September 30, 2011) was an American[7] and Yemeni imamand Islamic militant.[8][9] U.S. government officials said that he was a senior talent recruiter and motivator who was involved in planning terrorist operations for the Islamistmilitant group al-Qaeda

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And even dead he is still influencing terrorist;

However, Awlaki's influence continues to be apparent amongst Islamists in the west and internationally, and his statements, articles and lectures are regularly cited and used as inspiration by extremists in the West and worldwide.[20]

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Obviously a bad dude
And as for "one instance" and I too was under the assumption we only used a drone to kill one, CBS reports that 4 US citizens have died by way of drones.
Who were the 4 U.S. citizens killed in drone strikes? http://www.cbsnews.com/news/who-were-the-4-us-citizens-killed-in-drone-strikes/

 

[WeedWhacker]

...CBS reports that 4 US citizens have died by way of drones.

Targeted, or collateral?

I mean, for perspective, perhaps a study of all the "friendly fire" cases might be warranted?

 

[Jason]

Targeted, or collateral?

I mean, for perspective, perhaps a study of all the "friendly fire" cases might be warranted?

I think targeted, and all were confirmed terrorist or had ties to terrorism. The youngest, Abdulrahman al-Awlaki was age 16 and killed in a US drone strike. He was the son of Anwar al-Awlaki and was killed a month later in October. Some have said and even the President was quoted as saying it was an unfortunate or bad mistake killing him with a drone.

 

[Joe]

http://www.usacarry.com/forums/gene...-usda-oig-solicitation-40s-w-smgs-w-30-round-

Here is the solicitation. NOTE THAT NO SOLICITATION DOCUMENTS EXIST FOR THIS SOLICITATION! The USDA is essentially initiating an untraceable acquisition process, with the names of firearms manufacturers being kept out of the public eye.

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I came across this and wanted to know if its true and or if its normal procedure for a gov agency to order fire arms in this manner.

Didn't Gibson pay a sh*t load in fines for using that wood?

They paid the fines to keep out of incurring massive court expenses

The end of that story was a travesty, with Gibson being forced to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in a settlement where there was no finding of criminal action just so they could get back to business. At the time of the judgement, our own Mary Katharine Ham covered the story and found a lot wrong with it, but even she didn’t seem to suspect this situation. And in retrospect, it doesn’t seem all that surprising.

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.Its was political .

The inexplicable raid nearly two years ago on a guitar maker for using allegedly illegal wood that its competitors also used was another targeting by this administration of its political enemies…

Interestingly, one of Gibson’s leading competitors is C.F. Martin & Co. According to C.F. Martin’s catalog, several of their guitars contain “East Indian Rosewood,” which is the exact same wood in at least 10 of Gibson’s guitars. So why were they not also raided and their inventory of foreign wood seized?

Well, let’s see… maybe C.F. Martin was getting their supplies from a properly regulated source? No. Did they fill out some forms that Gibson forgot to submit? No… so what could it be?

Grossly underreported at the time was the fact that Gibson’s chief executive, Henry Juszkiewicz, contributed to Republican politicians. Recent donations have included $2,000 to Rep. Marsha Blackburn, R-Tenn., and $1,500 to Sen. Lamar Alexander, R-Tenn.

By contrast, Chris Martin IV, the Martin & Co. CEO, is a long-time Democratic supporter, with $35,400 in contributions to Democratic candidates and the Democratic National Committee over the past couple of election cycles.

“We feel that Gibson was inappropriately targeted,” Juszkiewicz said at the time, adding the matter “could have been addressed with a simple contact (from) a caring human being representing the government. Instead, the government used violent and hostile means.”
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PS this is a raid by the Fish and wildlife part of the USDA so its not off topic and points out the fears of those who are concerned with this purchased .

 

[Jason]

I mean, for perspective, perhaps a study of all the "friendly fire" cases might be warranted?

I actually think this would be a good topic in general discussion. If you care to start one feel free to move this; I'm not good at starting a topic (yet)lol.
http://www.thebureauinvestigates.co...cument-records-330-drone-strikes-in-pakistan/

There seems to be a great deal of missinformation about civilian casualties even cover ups by government(s).

 

[Mick West]

I actually think this would be a good topic in general discussion.

Only if there's a specific claim that such a study would refute. Otherwise it's chitchat.

 

[Jason]

You decide Mick. Move it where ever you feel it best serves the site.

http://www.juancole.com/2014/01/recorded-official-document.html
The overall casualties recorded by the document are broadly similar to those compiled by the Bureau, which uses sources including media reports, sworn affidavits and field investigations. The Bureau estimates that at least 2,371 people died in the time covered by the document (excluding 2007, which is missing from the record), while it records 2,217 deaths in total.

The document obtained by the Bureau is unusual because it gives a strike-by-strike account, allowing for comparison between the government’s view of individual incidents and that of other sources.

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Although the document records civilian casualties in the early years, from 2009 these almost disappear. Even well-documented cases of civilian deaths are omitted. These include at least two incidents where the tribal administration is known to have admitted to the families that it knew civilians had died.

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Among the civilian deaths that go unmentioned is one of the most high-profile attacks of the past 18 months – an October 2012 attack that killed Mamana Bibi, an elderly woman, as she was in a field. Her grandchildren were nearby, and several were injured by debris.

‘If a case as well-documented as Mamana Bibi’s isn’t recorded as a civilian death, that raises questions about whether any state records of these strikes can be seen as reliable, beyond the most basic information,’ said Mustafa Qadri, a researcher for Amnesty International, who investigated the strike for a major report published last autumn. ‘It also raises questions of complicity on the part of the Pakistan state – has there been a decision to stop recording civilians deaths?’

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Then there's a chart that shows civilian deaths as well;
A former senior FATA Secretariat official, speaking on condition of anonymity, explained that rather than attempting to establish which of the dead were believed to be civilians, agents instead categorised the dead as ‘local’ or ‘non-local’.

‘It is very difficult to report it whether this man was really a militant or a non-militant. So they found an easy way of saying it: local and non-local,’ he said.

‘It’s certainly of concern that almost all mention of non-combatant casualties simply disappears from this document after 2009, despite significant evidence to the contrary.’- Chris Woods

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So basically they did a play on words and chose to use loca (militant) or non local (non militant) because the wording in conjunction with the word civilian was too vague and controversial.

In fact the last drone strike to use the word civilian was in January of 2009;

The last drone strike in the document to use the word ‘civilian’ in describing the dead is the first of Obama’s presidency, on January 23 2009 (a strike six months later says, more ambiguously, ‘A civilian pickup was targeted’)

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Chris Woods, who started the Bureau’s investigation into drone strikes and who is now writing a book on armed drones, said: ‘One of my sources, a former Pakistani minister, has indicated that local officials may have come under pressure to play down drone civilian deaths following the election of Barack Obama. It’s certainly of concern that almost all mention of non-combatant casualties simply disappears from this document after 2009, despite significant evidence to the contrary.’

‘It is feared that all the killed were local tribesmen’

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So there is obviously a play on words to down play the civilian casualties caused by drone strikes, and whether or not the US influenced this language abroad seems they did to curve perception over drone attacks. Why the Pakistani government would also allow this to go on is unbeknownst to me.

A handful of entries include ambiguous language hinting at non-combatant casualties. On August 14 2010, the document records an evening strike, noting: ‘The dead included 07 Mehsuds, 05 locals and 01 unknown’. Mehsud is the name of a prominent local tribe. A field investigation by Associated Press later found that seven civilians – including a child – were among 14 to die in an attack on a house during Ramadan prayers.

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The fact that they would fire a hell fire missile into a home where women and children were present is really messed up. To try and cover it up makes it all the worse. I know there are a great deal of checks and balances that go into firing a missile from a drone. They need to identify the target and do a risk assesment on civilian casualties. They have the ability with infrared to get imaging inside of a building, and they must have known there were children and women present. Not too mention Ramadan is the holiest of holy holidays for muslims.

So rarely do we ever hear about these drone attacks any longer. Possibly because less are performed. But when the news does break rarely do we hear about the collateral damage caused by them. We only hear about the possible terrorist killed or waiting to hear confirmation that we got our target.

 

[Hevach]

So there is obviously a play on words to down play the civilian casualties caused by drone strikes, and whether or not the US influenced this language abroad seems they did to curve perception over drone attacks. Why the Pakistani government would also allow this to go on is unbeknownst to me.

Pakistan is in a bit of an awkward position. They have fairly close ties with a number of countries, including the US (not always good, but tied up with some treaties that have generally worked for them), but so does India, and India-Pakistan relations all come down to territorial disputes and the vague but real possibility of war. Enemies having a powerful mutual ally can be useful, but if either side sours relations with that ally, suddenly their footing with each other looks a lot more lopsided.

 

[WeedWhacker]

Some have said and even the President was quoted as saying it was an unfortunate or bad mistake killing him with a drone.

Yes, perhaps a mistake. After all, every government formed by humans is.....well, "only human" and prone to errors.

These are sometimes tough calls to be made...with ethical consequences attached. And the ones making the decisions must then live with those memories....(Or, retire to Texas and learn to paint)....