U
Unregistered
Guest
Joe again. Please observe this article also from an English newspaper. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...eding-end-drought--blankets-Beijing-snow.html
Debunked: WHY in the World are They Spraying
- Thread starter Mick West
- Start date
Joe, that's just weather modification, which nobody denies, and has be operating legally and without secrecy in the US since at least the 1950s. It's not something that leaves long white trails in the sky.
(and I'd recommend registering if you want to continue discussing it)
(and I'd recommend registering if you want to continue discussing it)
Belfrey
Senior Member.
Hi Joe, and welcome. The operation that that Chinese article is referring to is cloud seeding. Cloud seeding is real, it is nothing new, and it is not at all secret. It goes on in the US, too - there are commercial contractors that do it. They have websites, offices that you can walk right into etc. However, cloud seeding is not at all what "chemtrails" are claimed to be. They use silver iodide (or sometimes dry ice) as condensation nuclei, not aluminum, barium, and strontium as chemtrail activists claim are being sprayed. It's done at lower altitudes than the persistent contrails that the chemtrails activists are observing, and naturally, the material is released into clouds, to try to induce precipitation (unlike the contrails that often streak across open skies). As far as I know, the material released does not look like a contrail.
See the wikipedia article on cloud seeding.
Cloud seeding: a real, demonstrated activity. Chemtrails: not so.
See the wikipedia article on cloud seeding.
Cloud seeding: a real, demonstrated activity. Chemtrails: not so.
Jay Reynolds
Senior Member.
I think that the producer of the movie, Michael J. Murphy, purposely conflated his false belief when he sees contrails with ordinary weather modification because of the propaganda value he found. By shifting the issue away from already debunked material such as his claims that ordinary contrails won't persist, and that ordinary natural aerosols are found in rainfall, Murphy is able to suck folks in to his grip by yet again claiming that something ordinary is extraordinary.
This only works, however, when he omits certain information, and avoids all discussion of the problems with his claims.
Joe, I suggest you go to his Facebook page and ask him about this. I predict he will do exactly as I say, he will not admit his omissions, and will avoid any in-depth discussion of the problems.
This only works, however, when he omits certain information, and avoids all discussion of the problems with his claims.
Joe, I suggest you go to his Facebook page and ask him about this. I predict he will do exactly as I say, he will not admit his omissions, and will avoid any in-depth discussion of the problems.
Belfrey
Senior Member.
I think it's pretty clear that you're right. Since it's unlikely that a chemtrail activist would say that chemtrails are something as innocuous and overt as cloud seeding, it seems like a cynical and conscious bit of demagoguery to use one as evidence of the other.
Steelaway
New Member
Anyone who has such a high opinion of his own intellectual superiority is destined to fall flat on his face shortly. Getting back to SOME of your factual assertions about chemtrails and Monsanto and aluminium and conspiracy theories - yes you are correct. But that doesn't mean that everything associated with these allegations is equally flawed. Its true that some of the science is - lets say 'lacking' in rigour. But the people that are really involved in these businesses and ARE making megabucks from it are not the less-than-perfectly educated people that you are criticising on your blog.
Many soils are naturally high in aluminium, (correct) and yes only when the soil pH drops below 4.5 are there serious issues with aluminium toxicity. (correct) However this doesn't debunk the link to Monsanto and concern that they are conspiring to deprive farmers (and most of the worlds population) from natural plant variety rights. The facts are that Monsanto ARE patenting a wide range of crops which ARE as we speak contaminating the global genetic material (via pollen transfer) so that eventually any plant with a trace of Monsanto's coded plant DNA is technically their intellectual property. They have tried to sue farmers where crops have shown traces of Monsanto's IP - thats on the legal record.
The existence of the so-called 'Terminator gene' is also fact - check the patent office. They now claim NOT to be investing further in the production and distribution of that particular gene - but that is total bullshit, as they have already invested severasl hundred million and when it is re-released it will be rebadged something more motherhood and applie pie than 'terminator'. But the intent is the same - to produce sterile seed that gradually changes the existing seed banks for particular crops to ensure that at some stage in the future - you will become reliant on BOUGHT seed rather than being able to sow your previous years harvest. This is not just conspiracy talk - this is FACT and there are many defectors from Monsanto that can confirm it for you.
This is just to tocuh on ONE of your 'debunks' - you need to read more and talk less. Monsanto has its financial and corporate origins in the IG Farben Group in Germany who have the same parentage are Imperial Chemical Industries of the UK. Whilst its hard to believe that they share the same bankers and financial origins, because they ostensibly provided both sides of every war thats been fought since they started, nevertheless the deeper you go into the myriad trusts and investment vehicles the clearer it becomes. If you really want to debunk some of the more extreme myths out there - look more closely than you currently are else you will be accused of being part of the same conspiracy. As for the claims that these people are getting rich selling DVDs - thats easily debunked since they are also letting anyone copy and distribute them for free, hardly a way to get rich, as I'm sure Bill Gates can attest.
Billzilla
Senior Member.
*sigh*
Banned from his channel - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEfJO0-cTis
Predictable but unfortunate. Can't be seen to be rebutting and asking for real evidence, can we?
Banned from his channel - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEfJO0-cTis
Predictable but unfortunate. Can't be seen to be rebutting and asking for real evidence, can we?
Steelaway, If you are going to show where people are wrong, then can you quote what they said? Otherwise is seems like you are debunking claims that people had not made.
Also if you want to present evidence, it would be great if you link to the source.
I don't think anyone thinks that people are getting rich selling DVDs - but they are perhaps scraping by, and the loss of that income might be unwelcome. Given that they don't actually have other job, then this seems like a reasonable assumption.
Also if you want to present evidence, it would be great if you link to the source.
I don't think anyone thinks that people are getting rich selling DVDs - but they are perhaps scraping by, and the loss of that income might be unwelcome. Given that they don't actually have other job, then this seems like a reasonable assumption.
Steve Funk
Senior Member.
What it does do is raise serious questions about whether Monsanto could improve its bottom line through geoengineering. There are about 2.5 billion acres in the continental US. Of that, about 450 million acres are arable, and about 80 million have acid soil. Thus, a geoengineering program over the entire US would only improve the market for aluminum resistant seeds in 3% of the acreage sprayed. And a stratospheric spraying program would drift hundreds of miles, and could not be focussed on specific areas. It is hard to see how they could recoup the billions of dollars in costs for the program. Monsanto is a major seed seller, and the value of their other varieties would be diminished. The film does not place a major emphasis on aluminum resistant seed, but Rosalind Peterson does mention it.
Steelaway
New Member
I'm responding to a series of comments from you in relation to Chemtrails where you demonstrate that you are either unaware or ignorant of the actual chemical difference with Contrails. I dont need to repeat your assertions - they are there on the site ! Chemtrails and Contrails BOTH exist but chemically bear no relationship to each other. From a distance of 35,000 feet, they have a similar appearance, but one persists, the other vaporises.
As for my claims - this is from Wikipedia, but if you want other sources I can provide both German and Hungarian original sources. I rely on Wikipedia and Wikileaks - because it is peer reviewed and open, but I can understand why people might want something more 'authorative'; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IG_Farben#Predecessors_of_IG_Farben
Here's a link that explains some of the linkages between these two ostensibly 'competing' mega corporations during WWII. BIS: Trading With the Enemy – The Whole Story Saturday, August 28, 2010 (Ron Holland)External Quote:
at this link > http://www.thedailybell.com/1327/www.oaktreepublishing.ca
for a technical 'cooperative' analysis - read this
http://www.cntq.gob.ve/cdb/documentos/quimica/166.pdf
OR CACHED https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...h467VV&sig=AHIEtbRVH3ywWE2cr8PEfEvdGpB9b264Kw
There's lots more on the web - much (but not all) of it factual.
Steelaway
New Member
Monsanto don't have any further interest in soil acidification - that was achieved with 90 years domination of the phosphate fertilizer industry and acidulated rock (Superphosphate) particularly in the acid soils of the humid tropics (UNESCO, Fertilizers for the acid upland soils of the humid tropics, 1984). Thats the market for the GM seeds and has NOTHING to do with Chemtrails. They have moved on to domination of the global seed industry and plant variety rights via patents. Their prize product is the Terminator gene which prevents natural seeds from germinating. That means a farmer growing a crop, has to buy his SEED each year and becomes 100% reliant on bought in inputs including herbicides and pesticides. Monsanto seeds are generally resistant to Roundup. Although Terminator is 'officially' discontinued, its being re-branded as we speak. Sorry I can't give you the reference to that but you can always call Monsanto ! (Or speak to one of their numerous defectors)
Steelaway
New Member
nothing at all, just pretend it isn't happening and dont worry about it. Anyway it's not really happening - there just ice crystals and the guys financing this on a global scale are just doing it because they want to save us all from global warming. I'm sure you'll sleep better knowing that they only have your best interests at heart.
Steelaway
New Member
Neither aluminium foil (metal) or aluminium oxide dissolve in rain water, thats why.
Either do a search on SOLUBILITY PRODUCTS and educate yourself or try dissolving some alfoil in a glass of water.
I think you are missing the key point here Steelaway. You claim that a contrail will quickly dissipate, and yet we all know that is false. All the science books agree that contrails can persist for hours if conditions are right. There are many examples, but here one from "A Field Guide to the Atmosphere", by Schaefer and Day, 1981:
and since you trust Wikipedia:External Quote:
So the ONE AND ONLY point you need to address here, since the rest of your argument is based on it, is WHY do you think that contrails should always quickly dissipate.External Quote:Contrails (/ˈkɒntreɪlz/; short for "condensation trails") or vapor trails are long thin artificial clouds that sometimes form behind aircraft. Their formation is most often triggered by the water vapour in the exhaust of aircraft engines, but can also be triggered by the changes in air pressure in wingtip vortices or in the air over the entire wing surface.[1] Like all clouds, contrails are made of water, in the form of a suspension of billions of liquid droplets or ice crystals.
Depending on the temperature and humidity at the altitude the contrail forms, they may be visible for only a few seconds or minutes, or may persist for hours and spread to be several miles wide. Persistent contrails are thought to have a significant effect on global climate.[2]
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Jay Reynolds
Senior Member.
Steelaway thinks that the word "Terminator" was a Monsanto brand!
You don't know a whit about who coined that phrase, then you don't know very much about the GM issue.
That term was coined by RAFI, now kown as the ETC group. RAFI began an irrationa and unscientific campaign against the Monsantodevil during the 1990's and are responsible for depriving millions of people in the third world of agricultural advances. Interesting also is that ETC group is a major opponent of geoengineering, but does not share any belief whatsoever in chemtrails.
As far as acidic tropical soils ultisols, acrisols, oxisols and andosols, no, commercial fertilizer didn't do that, those soils are naturallyacidic and have been since they formed in a very wet environment. Very little of those soils have been farmed with anything other than slash-and burn, which provides ash creating a temporary buffering of pH and allowing a period of fertility. I know because I farmed in the tropics and have taken a University level course in Tropical Soils.
Try educating yourself on the issues, bub, because you need to know mch more than you think you already know.
You don't know a whit about who coined that phrase, then you don't know very much about the GM issue.
That term was coined by RAFI, now kown as the ETC group. RAFI began an irrationa and unscientific campaign against the Monsantodevil during the 1990's and are responsible for depriving millions of people in the third world of agricultural advances. Interesting also is that ETC group is a major opponent of geoengineering, but does not share any belief whatsoever in chemtrails.
As far as acidic tropical soils ultisols, acrisols, oxisols and andosols, no, commercial fertilizer didn't do that, those soils are naturallyacidic and have been since they formed in a very wet environment. Very little of those soils have been farmed with anything other than slash-and burn, which provides ash creating a temporary buffering of pH and allowing a period of fertility. I know because I farmed in the tropics and have taken a University level course in Tropical Soils.
Try educating yourself on the issues, bub, because you need to know mch more than you think you already know.
Belfrey
Senior Member.
Rainfall naturally includes particulate matter, from airborne dust which (since much of it comes from the earth's crust) includes aluminum. Not dissolved, but in suspension. There is ample documentation in the literature of this - see this thread for several examples. Rainfall composition analyses from before the 1990s indicate that their results are not unusual.
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Leifer
Senior Member.
Off topic DIY...
Aluminum foil will dissolve if in contact with an acid and another metal like steel...but only with a sure connection.
It makes a weak battery this way.
In the fridge/cooler....
Take Al foil and tightly wrap a peeled fresh lemon. Place it on a piece of plastic.
Then do the same thing, but place it on a piece of bare iron or stainless steel instead of the plastic.
Check the foil the next day.
This is why when you cook lasagna (tomato, acid) in a stainless steel dish, then cover it with aluminum foil, put it in the cooler.....the foil will dissolve where it touches the tomato sauce (an acid).
see: "sacrificial zinc anode, aluminum hull"
Aluminum foil will dissolve if in contact with an acid and another metal like steel...but only with a sure connection.
It makes a weak battery this way.
In the fridge/cooler....
Take Al foil and tightly wrap a peeled fresh lemon. Place it on a piece of plastic.
Then do the same thing, but place it on a piece of bare iron or stainless steel instead of the plastic.
Check the foil the next day.
This is why when you cook lasagna (tomato, acid) in a stainless steel dish, then cover it with aluminum foil, put it in the cooler.....the foil will dissolve where it touches the tomato sauce (an acid).
see: "sacrificial zinc anode, aluminum hull"
tryblinking
Senior Member.
Steelaway mentioned:
Just a small point, but worth making. The belief that Monsanto et al. are intent on destroying certain gene pools of crops by surplanting them with their own promiscuous varieties willfully ignores the existance of 'arks' and contingency seed banks projects, like the Svalbard Global Seed Vault, whose sole purpose is to avert this exact scenario.
Shortly after I watched this film(which provided absolutely no evidence) I found this website when searching for debunk information. I like it here so far. I think its important to keep an open mind to both sides of the debate but I get a good laugh out of these types of conspiracies.
cheeple
Member
That is pretty scary that a seed bank built into the side of a mountain in a remote corner of the world will have the last natural seeds.....and that it seems to be ok with people.
hemi
Senior Member.
It's not the only one, just one of the more secure facilities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seedbank#Facilities
tryblinking
Senior Member.
and anyway, I don't mind, as it's my remote corner of the world 
)
)
Steve Funk
Senior Member.
Has anybody read Dr. James Fleming's book, "Fixing the Sky, The Checkered History of Weather and Climate Control,"?
http://www.amazon.com/Fixing-Sky-Checkered-Columbia-International/dp/0231144121
He has more scientific cretentials than anyone else in the film, with an MS in atmospheric science preceding a phd in History. He is the only person I know of with an advanced degree in any type of atmospheriic science who seems to take the chemtrails idea seriously. But he did not really say on the film whether he actually believed chemtrails were real. His testimony started with cloud seeding vaguely referred to other potential weather or climate control methods without getting specific. His testimony was mostly about history, his field, but it was interspersed with other characters.
http://www.amazon.com/Fixing-Sky-Checkered-Columbia-International/dp/0231144121
He has more scientific cretentials than anyone else in the film, with an MS in atmospheric science preceding a phd in History. He is the only person I know of with an advanced degree in any type of atmospheriic science who seems to take the chemtrails idea seriously. But he did not really say on the film whether he actually believed chemtrails were real. His testimony started with cloud seeding vaguely referred to other potential weather or climate control methods without getting specific. His testimony was mostly about history, his field, but it was interspersed with other characters.
U
Unregistered
Guest
Hello - then someone else is awake ~! Yes I find it scary too, but not as scary as the complacency that surrounds whats happening.
Danny55
Senior Member.
Anyone can give their review of the film over at
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2264390/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2264390/
U
Unregistered
Guest
Welcome to the site where your wish list can come true, where the motto can be "leave the thinking to us". Here is what you will find….
[Admin: repetitive content deleted]
[Admin: repetitive content deleted]
Greg, we get it, you think we are arrogant and deluded, me especially.
If you'd like to discuss some evidence, or correct some actual errors, then go ahead. But please try to be polite, and use the upper levels of this pyramid, not the lower:
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U
Unregistered
Guest
the admin is afraid of truth and dealing with the fact that he has proven nothing except that he won't step outside of his bubble
It's not about "proving" things. You can't prove a covert program is not happening. That's impossible. It's about evidence, and if the individual pieces of evidence are bunk or not. So far I think I, and others here, have identified a lot of bunk.
If you'd care to present some contrary evidence, please go ahead, but politely please.
Jay Reynolds
Senior Member.
I would love to hear any refutation or contradiction unregistered can logically and factually apply to what is being said here. Challenges to what we say will only work to make our arguments more airtight and tested, or if found lacking, can be corrected and made even better. So, come back and help us out of this "bubble", please. Make us better than we ever have been, because that is where we want to go.
Fred259
New Member
They don't. Contrails don't always quickly dissipate.
A contrails is moisture held in suspension within the atmosphere that is clearly visible.
With the so called vaporised contrail, the moisture still exists however it is now contained in a vaporised "gaseous state". Therefore the trails cant be seen.
So how do we know if a contrail will form or not?
The answer is that constant and continual changes within the dry and saturated adiabatic temperature lapse rate, throughout the atmosphere together with the relative humidity percentage will determine if a contrail will form or not.
It needs to be understood that the atmosphere is continually changing and like the sea never rests.
The guys on this site are doing a good job trying to explain something that is complex. Unless you have an understanding of aviation, either from an engineering or piloting prospective or a good understanding of meteorology its going to be hard for you to "buy" what these guys are telling you. That doesn't mean they are wrong. It does however mean that those who try and trick you are able to do so. Don't be fooled. Go and read up on "Latent Heat" instead.
The bottom line is.
Its monstrous to suggest that aircraft are spraying a live human population. Anyone who suggests this is happening is trying to trick you and make you scared.
Don't be fooled and don't be scared. Be wise instead, and don't be the victim. If you allow them to trick you remember that they have won, not only over you but more importantly over your mind and that's an injustice.
A contrails is moisture held in suspension within the atmosphere that is clearly visible.
With the so called vaporised contrail, the moisture still exists however it is now contained in a vaporised "gaseous state". Therefore the trails cant be seen.
So how do we know if a contrail will form or not?
The answer is that constant and continual changes within the dry and saturated adiabatic temperature lapse rate, throughout the atmosphere together with the relative humidity percentage will determine if a contrail will form or not.
It needs to be understood that the atmosphere is continually changing and like the sea never rests.
The guys on this site are doing a good job trying to explain something that is complex. Unless you have an understanding of aviation, either from an engineering or piloting prospective or a good understanding of meteorology its going to be hard for you to "buy" what these guys are telling you. That doesn't mean they are wrong. It does however mean that those who try and trick you are able to do so. Don't be fooled. Go and read up on "Latent Heat" instead.
The bottom line is.
Its monstrous to suggest that aircraft are spraying a live human population. Anyone who suggests this is happening is trying to trick you and make you scared.
Don't be fooled and don't be scared. Be wise instead, and don't be the victim. If you allow them to trick you remember that they have won, not only over you but more importantly over your mind and that's an injustice.
U
Unregistered
Guest
Look I don't believe any of these chemtrail people, but I live in Austin, TX and 2 days ago I saw a plane clearly spray a chemical over the city. It dissipated and fell. Would a contrail fall to the ground? I watched it for about 4 hours. It spread out into thin lines and fell to the ground.
http://rense.com/general45/aro.htm
this website contains some images of another similar event in Austin (disregard any info from that site). Some of them show the thin lines I was talking about. I swear I watched it fall several hundred feet. I'm still pretty skeptical that the government is spraying anything nefarious on us, but I can't find any info about the sprayings that is not from chemtrail people.
I know they spray mosquito poison in Dallas, is that what this is?
http://rense.com/general45/aro.htm
this website contains some images of another similar event in Austin (disregard any info from that site). Some of them show the thin lines I was talking about. I swear I watched it fall several hundred feet. I'm still pretty skeptical that the government is spraying anything nefarious on us, but I can't find any info about the sprayings that is not from chemtrail people.
I know they spray mosquito poison in Dallas, is that what this is?
Contrails don't fall much. Probably what you saw was the contrail moving away. As it moves away it will appear to get closer to the horizon, and hence look lower. But really it's at the same height.
Jay Reynolds
Senior Member.
Too bad you didn't get your own cell phone pictures while watching these contrails for four hours(?). If they looked similar to the event you linked to, those contrails are quite high, miles high in fact, judgin by the very small thickness of the newer ones. Sometimes as the contrails spread out and grow wider they might look closer, but clouds don't fall to the ground because they are far too light to fall that way.
Here is an experiment you can try. Go to the talest building or highest cliff or bridge you can find. Squirt some water from a drinking water bottle and count how long it takes to reach the ground (if it even does). Do the math for a six mile drop and realize that stuff breaks up and just blows away, it won't reach the ground.
I have one question. If this elitist conspiracy exists whether its for population control or just sadists poisoning us what exactly do they, their children, parents, and lovers, breathe? If the ecosystem is trashed, how can they enjoy dominating?What beaches can their offspring play, what rivers can they fish? Where can this cabal live and not be affected equally????
Pete Tar
Senior Member.
I think it's because of that question that the purpose has been more recently changed to be geoengineering, as also the lack of masses of people dying off was getting harder to explain. Geoengineering is much vaguer and its effects less immediately obvious so they can still claim it's being done.
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