Debunked: Fake Snow, Burning Snow.

deirdre

Senior Member.
I know 'bulk of evidence' doesn't really count but the massive scope of this fake snow in just a few days does make the chem theory a bit less believable! do we even own that many planes?

Videos January 29/30 2014
michigan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAQa7Rk87jo
tennessee
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wq5WV8LBF5s
north carolina
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0eAYiYjjy0
central indiana
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_-e7DPABfg
georgia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N18PqoOAAE
ohio
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1LEju-KmvI
connecticut
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dU9TlfOXByI
colorado
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIpEvUxsLjo
washington state (min4:30)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InaYEs8oBSU
minnesota
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZhPPVoUmAk
wyoming
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1Y1047DD1g
new jersey
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvpRqB0cPLM
massachusetts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2kpv8HmyJ8
vermont
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nV56DMgyZo
ontario canada
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk90-RUinCA
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I just find it silly that they use the term "burning snow".

It's a reminder that terminology can vary a lot between individuals, and people often use words very imprecisely. Like people describe metal that is red hot as "molten". Or clouds of condensed water as "steam".

But if you hold a flame under something, and it turns black, then it's somewhat natural to imagine you have burnt it. After all, there's the burn mark! And they don't really think they are burning snow, they are "burning" fake snow.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Sublimation is being cited as a reason, but is that accurate?
 
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Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Sublimation is being cited as a reason, but is that accurate?

I don't think so. I added this to the OP this morning:

"There's also been some discussion of sublimation (where ice transitions directly from solid to gas). This has been suggested as an explanation as to why the snow seems to not produce liquid. But it's a false and needless explanation. Sublimation happens mostly at low pressure. If there is any water loss here it's because the ice crystals rapidly melt, and then just as rapidly evaporate.

I think though that the majority of the snow turns to liquid. This could be verified by weighing it on a sensitive scale as it is melted with a flame."
 

Trigger Hippie

Senior Member.
Here is the earliest reference I could find about "burning snow", May 9, 2008. I really shouldn't need to say this: THE VIDEO IS A JOKE.


EDIT: (First aired April 1, 2008).:rolleyes:
 
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Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
Ok, I'm going to get a little more technical in explaining what people are seeing in the snow tests.

Point 1: Snow is an insulator, it retards the transfer of heat.

definition:
Insulator:
Any material that keeps energy such as electricity, heat, or cold from easily transferring through is an insulator. Wood, plastic, rubber, and glass are good insulators.

reference:

http://www.igsoc.org/journal.old/43/143/igs_journal_vol43_issue143_pg26-41.pdf

Journal of Glaciology, Vol. 43, No. 143, 1997
The Thermal Conductivity of Seasonal Snow
MATTHEW STURM,I JON HOLMGREN,I MAX KONIG,2 KIM MORRIS2
1 US Army Cold Regions Research and Engineering Laboratory, Po. Box 35170, F t. Wainwright,
Alaska 99703-0170, USA.
Geophysical Institute, University of ALaska, Fairbanks, ALaska 99775, USA.
insulator.jpg

The fact that snow is an insulator makes melting it harder than melting ice. More energy is required to melt snow than ice

Support for the above claim:

Thermal conductivity is a measure of the property of materials to conduct or transfer heat. It is measured in watts per meter x degrees Kelvin (W/(m·K)).

Reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_thermal_conductivities

1. Thermal conductivity of ice: 1.6-2.22 (W/(m·K))

2. Thermal conductivity of (dry) snow: 0.05-0.25 (W/(m·K))

The thermal conductivity of ice is greater, at 1.6-2.22 than that of snow, at .05-.25. This means that heat is conducted faster through ice than it is conducted through snow.

Point 2:

The snow can retain water by capillary action.

definition:

http://science.howstuffworks.com/dictionary/physics-terms/capillary-action-info.htm

Capillary Action, or Capillarity, the tendency of liquids to rise or to be depressed in tubes of small diameter. Capillarity is due to the adhesion of the liquid to the sides of the tube, and to the surface tension of the liquid.
Capillary action can be seen when a corner of a paper towel is touched to spilled water. The water soon spreads into other parts of the towel because loose fibers have spaces between them that act as capillary tubes. The drying action of a bath towel is also due to capillarity. Kerosene rises in the wick of a lamp through capillary action. Compact soil has very small, continuous spaces through which water tends to rise by capillary action.

reference:
http://books.google.com/books?id=0VW6Tv0LVWkC&pg=PA107&lpg=PA107&dq=capillary action of snow&source=bl&ots=8UjB_x3H1s&sig=DriZdLD8Imq_vY5LwwABKGB5FLo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xCPsUqewD-HXygHr1YDIAg&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=capillary action of snow&f=true


Snow and Glacier Hydrology, Volume 792367677
By P. Singh, Vijay P. Singh page 107

capillary.jpg

Conclusions:

Snow, being an insulator, does not conduct heat as fast as ice does, thus it will not reach melting temperature as quickly when heat is applied as does ice.

Water is known to be retained in snow by capillary action, which will retard even further the time required for a visible portion of water to emerge from snow when heat is applied.
 
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Ross Marsden

Senior Member.
A post on the Facebook page "Chemtrails and HAARP: scientific discussion..." suggests that the fake/burning snow idea started at Chemtrails Global Skywhatch. Not sure exactly which Fb manifestation of that organization.
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
I really have (up to this point) been sympathetic to the lack of scientific sophistication of the Chemtrail followers . . . but this snow thing has pushed me over the edge . . . if their leaders and others are involved with pushing this nonsense . . . I don't think there is a way to ever convince them persistent contrails are not a plot to do almost anything to them and the world . . . :(
 

Niteshayde

New Member
The really sad part of all this is that it DID start as a joke. But I live in Georgia, and I can tell you that people here really ARE just that way. I know a woman who, seriously now, believed that there was no such thing as Eskimos. She said that they were just something that was made up for cartoons on TV.
 
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Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Snow, being an insulator, does not conduct heat as fast as ice does, thus it will not reach melting temperature as quickly when heat is applied as does ice.
Water is known to be retained in snow by capillary action, which will retard even further the time required for a visible portion of water to emerge from snow when heat is applied.

I'm not exactly sure about the science of the insulator thing.

Snow is made of ice. Consider the bottom of a snowball and the bottom of an iceball. Stick a flame under each. The hot air from the flame rises, hits the snowball/iceball. For a given packet of hot air, how much heat is imparted to the object?

The snowball has a greater surface area than the iceball due to its internal geometry, so initially it will heat faster, but the transfer of heat from the inside to the outside will be slower, meaning the outside will heat quicker, which in turn means it will then absorb head slower once it's gone over a certain temperature. But then it's also going to be melting, and wicking the water away, which will transfer the heat to the interior. It all gets jolly complicated. It's not like you have two solid masses with different thermal conductivity coefficients.

I think a true test of that particular aspect needs to have a snowball and an iceball of equal mass. Ideally weighed through the whole process.
 
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deirdre

Senior Member.
the snowballs ARE melting as fast as the ice cubes. they just aren't dripping like the ice cubes, because ice cubes cant absorb the drip.
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
I'm not exactly sure about the science of the insulator thing.
I am. Several semesters of thermodynamics and heat transfer. There are two other elements which get even more technical, thermal resistivity, specific heat of air/water, and heat of crystallization, but the points I mention are the keys to what is being seen.

Mick said:
snow is made of ice
Ice and air. The air entrained in the snow matrix gives it the insulating quality.

Mick said:
The snowball has a greater surface area than the iceball due to its internal geometry
Perhaps internally, but not externally, especially when many of the videos pack it a little.

Mick said:
but the transfer of heat from the inside to the outside will be slower, meaning the outside will heat quicker,
The outside may heat, but that heat is headed inside as well, heat moves towards lack of heat.

Mick said:
I think a true test of that particular aspect needs to have a snowball and an iceball of equal mass. Ideally weighed through the whole process.

Ah, so you want to design a real experiment. Good. But that is not the subject of this debunking exercise.
 
Great article and great information! It's always healthy to hear all sides of any particular argument.

But Mick, just to play devil's advocate here- Couldn't one argue that although this proves that the snow itself is not artificial, this doesn't disprove the possibility that the snow was not artificially created.

Is it completely impossible for technology to exist that would allow the "creation" of snow? If so, how would you substantiate your argument scientifically to disprove this idea?
 

JRBids

Senior Member.
A post on the Facebook page "Chemtrails and HAARP: scientific discussion..." suggests that the fake/burning snow idea started at Chemtrails Global Skywhatch. Not sure exactly which Fb manifestation of that organization.

The screenshot if FROM chemtrails global skywatch, I thought it was just someone from that page bragging "we were first", but I think it means nothing other than that they think they're very special.
 

JRBids

Senior Member.
I really have (up to this point) been sympathetic to the lack of scientific sophistication of the Chemtrail followers . . . but this snow thing has pushed me over the edge . . . if their leaders and others are involved with pushing this nonsense . . . I don't think there is a way to ever convince them persistent contrails are not a plot to do almost anything to them and the world . . . :(


One of the admins on Chemtrails Global is still pushing the "theory".

https://www.facebook.com/groups/globalskywatch/permalink/10153761760665302/?stream_ref=3

cgsScreenshot (861).png
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Great article and great information! It's always healthy to hear all sides of any particular argument.

But Mick, just to play devil's advocate here- Couldn't one argue that although this proves that the snow itself is not artificial, this doesn't disprove the possibility that the snow was not artificially created.

Is it completely impossible for technology to exist that would allow the "creation" of snow? If so, how would you substantiate your argument scientifically to disprove this idea?

I wouldn't. It's silly to say "Maybe something happened that left no evidence, how would you prove that it didn't happen?"

It acts exactly like regular snow. That's all I'm saying.
 

PandyFackler

New Member
One of the admins on Chemtrails Global is still pushing the "theory".

https://www.facebook.com/groups/globalskywatch/permalink/10153761760665302/?stream_ref=3

cgsScreenshot (861).png

The video is actually a prime example of destructive metamorphism and sintering, and the snow is behaving exactly as you would expect it to. I'm sure most of you are not at all surprised by this.

She first describes the snow as 'not binding together easily'. Some snow just doesn't bind well, this has ruined many opportunities for snowball fights. After scooping the snow into a cup and bringing it inside, she begins manipulating it with a paperclip. Destructive metamorphism occurs in snow due to disruption of the snow by things like wind, shoveling, or in this case pushing it around with a paperclip.

Sintering occurs as the ice crystals break down and form rounded ice crystals. This leaves less space between the ice crystals than before, and they will re-bond upon contact with each other. The small stack of snow particles she creates in the video is a great demonstration of sintering, and again, is exactly what you want and expect snow to do in this situation... especially if you would like to throw it at some one or build a fort.

Honestly, if that video had been presented to me without a title or description I would have assumed this process is exactly what they were trying to demonstrate.
 
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the420baker

New Member
I have seen SEVERAL people talking about this. Try telling them to do it with a match so they can smell the sulpha and wood smell. They called me stupid.
 

Leifer

Senior Member.
and wouldn't plastic catch fire?
burning plastic.jpg

Different plastics have different burn qualities. Some do not catch fire.
See this plastic "burn test" to help identify different types...
http://www.boedeker.com/burntest.htm

(I've used this method for determination electronic capacitor types, by opening them up, and burning a portion of the interior plastic)

Also, perhaps the snow or ice "soot" (using a pocket butane lighter) could be eliminated using a cleaner fuel source, like using a chemistry alcohol burner. (eliminating the yellow part of the flame (soot))
 
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Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Different plastics have different burn qualities. Some do not catch fire.
See this plastic "burn test" to help identify different types...
http://www.boedeker.com/burntest.htm

(I've used this method for determination electronic capacitor types, by opening them up, and burning a portion of the interior plastic)

Also, perhaps the snow or ice "soot" (using a pocket butane lighter) could be eliminated using a cleaner fuel source, like using an chemistry wick-less alcohol burner. (eliminating the yellow part of the flame (soot))

You can largely eliminate the soot just by holding the lighter so the tip of the flame is an inch below the object.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I think it actually started in early January, this is the first mention of strange, unmelting fake snow I've found. I remember people throwing snowballs on the fire, probably led to someone trying it with a lighter.

snowhysteria.jpg
https://www.facebook.com/groups/globalskywatch/permalink/10153663188505302/

Looks like the mass of dry snow has just shrunk to a smaller volume, but same mass.

Comment from that thread:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/glo...10153669685080302&offset=0&total_comments=180
So the snow melted into water. But it shrank in volume first, as you would expect with dry snow.
 

tenaciouswhitt

New Member
Where is the smell coming from when using a candle? I tried this with a candle stick and the burning plastic smell was present? *I should note, I don't believe the HAARP/CHEM theory*
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Where is the smell coming from when using a candle? I tried this with a candle stick and the burning plastic smell was present? *I should note, I don't believe the HAARP/CHEM theory*

A candle and butane flame are not actually that different - both are burning hydrocarbons. So they both can have a similar type of incomplete combustion, which leads to the soot and the smell.
 

David Fraser

Senior Member.
Did you mean freezing?

We'd dig out snow shelters after letting a big pile of snow settle and crystallize. One candle and the combined body heat kept the place incredibly comfortable. The biggest problem would be keeping the sleeping bags dry from little dripping icicles that would form on the ceiling.

No I did mean drowning. To myself, and many on my course, it seemed counterintuitive to put a heat source in a snow hole. Heat + snow = water.

Off topic but I was brought up in East Yorkshire which is quite flat. While we had heavy snowfalls there were no areas of heavy drifting and snowskills were not taught. When I joined the army at 16 some of us went to Norway for Arctic training. I remember an instructor giving a talk on the stability of snow blah blah, trust your equipment blah blah. He then went walking off, probing as he went and promptly disappeared in a hole formed by some trees. Laugh? I know I made yellow snow that day ;-)
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
I think it actually started in early January, this is the first mention of strange, unmelting fake snow I've found. I remember people throwing snowballs on the fire, probably led to someone trying it with a lighter.

snowhysteria.jpg
https://www.facebook.com/groups/globalskywatch/permalink/10153663188505302/
Ah, Ricky Defino again. The same guy that posted a video of missile launchers as "THE CHEM TRAIL SOLUTION":




Then his friends at Chemtrails Global Skywatch told him that was "awesome".
https://www.facebook.com/groups/globalskywatch/permalink/10153531132970302/

ricky1.jpg
ricky2.jpg

Wonderful fellow over there in NJ, that Ricky Defino.....
 

Jammemaw61

New Member
Well I tried this in Mississippi and it did melt but it did smell like burnt plastic. I had no gloves on for it to give off a plastic smell. I had a friend do it in Maryland and the same results burnt plastic. You tell me it is a hoax and I doubt they were in my yard putting plastic in it. Now tell me why this is happening here where it doesn't snow until this feak storm.
 

Soulfly

Banned
Banned
Well I tried this in Mississippi and it did melt but it did smell like burnt plastic. I had no gloves on for it to give off a plastic smell. I had a friend do it in Maryland and the same results burnt plastic. You tell me it is a hoax and I doubt they were in my yard putting plastic in it. Now tell me why this is happening here where it doesn't snow until this feak storm.
Take an ordinary drinking glass and hold a lighter under it till there is a black mark and then smell the black mark. It will smell the same.

Make sure you don't get a smudge on your nose! :)
 

Hama Neggs

Senior Member.
Well I tried this in Mississippi and it did melt but it did smell like burnt plastic. I had no gloves on for it to give off a plastic smell. I had a friend do it in Maryland and the same results burnt plastic. You tell me it is a hoax and I doubt they were in my yard putting plastic in it. Now tell me why this is happening here where it doesn't snow until this feak storm.

You might want to do a search for the phrase "freak storm". I think you will find that this was not nearly the first one.
 

solrey

Senior Member.
Well I tried this in Mississippi and it did melt but it did smell like burnt plastic. I had no gloves on for it to give off a plastic smell. I had a friend do it in Maryland and the same results burnt plastic. You tell me it is a hoax and I doubt they were in my yard putting plastic in it. Now tell me why this is happening here where it doesn't snow until this feak storm.

Put a butane flame on anything and it will smell due to soot and combustion by-products. The longer the flame is lit the hotter the plastic parts under the metal cap become so there might actually be some burnt plastic involved, albeit from the lighter itself.

Might want to look into your state's recent weather history...

http://www.srh.noaa.gov/jan/?n=local_weather_events

http://www.srh.noaa.gov/jan/?n=2013_01_14_17_snow_ice

http://www.srh.noaa.gov/jan/?n=2011_02_09_snow

http://www.srh.noaa.gov/jan/?n=jan_09_11_winter_precip_event

http://www.srh.noaa.gov/jan/?n=2010_2_12_heavysnow

http://www.srh.noaa.gov/jan/?n=2009_12_04_snow

http://www.srh.noaa.gov/jan/?n=2009_03_01_late_winter_snowfall

http://www.srh.noaa.gov/jan/?n=2008_12_11_heavy_snow_event

http://www.srh.noaa.gov/jan/?n=2008_01_19_snow

http://www.srh.noaa.gov/jan/?n=2002_01_01_snow
 

Melbury's Brick

Senior Member.
Well I tried this in Mississippi and it did melt but it did smell like burnt plastic. I had no gloves on for it to give off a plastic smell. I had a friend do it in Maryland and the same results burnt plastic. You tell me it is a hoax and I doubt they were in my yard putting plastic in it. Now tell me why this is happening here where it doesn't snow until this feak storm.
Little wonder that people think the planet is warming up. PLEASE STOP BURNING THE SNOW!
 
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